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Windwaker
Germany1597 Posts
basically what symbol did, was camping with a shit ton of spines and infestors and teching to broodlords. he said in the interview afterwards ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342548 ) that he won because he countered nesteas build. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
Have never done this myself against ling infestor, but i think it is something to note because just a few decent baneling hits and all the lings have no health. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:52 Moosegills wrote: Just curious, blade or others has anyone every tried getting baneling speed against you when you play this style. Granted fungal "beats" banelings but they still take 2 to kill and banelings own lings and spines pretty hard Have never done this myself against ling infestor, but i think it is something to note because just a few decent baneling hits and all the lings have no health. Yes one of the replays I uploaded has speed bane against me. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:52 Moosegills wrote: Just curious, blade or others has anyone every tried getting baneling speed against you when you play this style. Granted fungal "beats" banelings but they still take 2 to kill and banelings own lings and spines pretty hard Have never done this myself against ling infestor, but i think it is something to note because just a few decent baneling hits and all the lings have no health. That seems to work best if you can get a nice surround with the banelings, otherwise it's a miserable failure. It also comes down to how many infestors you actually have. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 16 2012 11:42 oOOoOphidian wrote: That seems to work best if you can get a nice surround with the banelings, otherwise it's a miserable failure. It also comes down to how many infestors you actually have. Yeah it didn't work to well for him once I got the infestors out, also had a couple banelings myself that I used to kill his so they never touched my lings except when I ran into the middle of the map smack into them when I should have chilled a bit xD. | ||
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OhSix
United States252 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
I am a roach guy, but I decided to try this style out for a few games, and EVERY single game (5 games) I got blindly roach/speedbane all inned at the exact moment my infestors would pop. Really weird. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If the opponent is clearly not taking a third, and is making roaches on 2 base, then he's clearly doing an all-in, in which case you need a ton of spines, lings, maybe some banes to deal with his banes, while teching up to infestors behind mass spines. really against roach/ling all-in I just reactively mass spines and tech up quickly to mutas and gg win he's too far behind, but infestors would work, or even mass burrow speed roach, whatever, 50 drone 2 base lair tech > 25 drone 2 base hatch tech. just identify it's a roach all-in because he has no drones, and made roaches before a third base. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
I have been doing this style for a long time. And I also feel it has the least amount of holes. However, the largest hole is right before infesters pop out and 1/1 isn't done yet. Because of this, I have been electing to do a macro hatch before my third, using it as a wall with spines at my natural. Once the 1/1 is done, then I like too take my third, while denying theirs. Now I am not sure this is the BEST way to do things. However, I am really happy that my peers: You Blade, Belial, Tang, ect, are doing this style now. I feel like we should meet up in a few games on NA, play around with a few timing attacks, and see if we can make the style more bullet proof? Thoughts? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:56 EndOfLine wrote: Whats up Blade! (I did enjoy the late night laddering the other day, where you DID do this style, and where you came back from being behind on drones) I have been doing this style for a long time. And I also feel it has the least amount of holes. However, the largest hole is right before infesters pop out and 1/1 isn't done yet. Because of this, I have been electing to do a macro hatch before my third, using it as a wall with spines at my natural. Once the 1/1 is done, then I like too take my third, while denying theirs. Now I am not sure this is the BEST way to do things. However, I am really happy that my peers: You Blade, Belial, Tang, ect, are doing this style now. I feel like we should meet up in a few games on NA, play around with a few timing attacks, and see if we can make the style more bullet proof? Thoughts? Maybe depends on my mood at the time lol xD. Pretty much from playing on kr the biggest threats are roach timing attacks which you need to have spines for, roach/speedbane has a tiny window where it cank ill you if you let all the speed banes kill all your lings, you need spines and your own banelings to stop this or you will probably lose as they can do 1 timing before infestors are out. Those 2 are imo the biggest threats so far. | ||
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Helsaad
United States20 Posts
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 17 2012 06:16 blade55555 wrote: Maybe depends on my mood at the time lol xD. Pretty much from playing on kr the biggest threats are roach timing attacks which you need to have spines for, roach/speedbane has a tiny window where it cank ill you if you let all the speed banes kill all your lings, you need spines and your own banelings to stop this or you will probably lose as they can do 1 timing before infestors are out. Those 2 are imo the biggest threats so far. I definitely think you need a baneling nest in case your opponent goes for a roach/baneling attack before infestors pop. Even if you don't open banelings, you should make one. I haven't done this enough to really know if a proper roach/baneling timing can be held with this without banelings, but either way it's definitely easier to hold with banelings of your own. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:42 CajunMan wrote: First off thanks for the guide I was interested in this build for a while. So against muta play do you just plan to have a late third I played against a muta player who transitioned into ultra ling infestor. I ended up winning but against mutas do you just wait for infestors to come out before expoing? I would try to take the third before it, if not yeah you can wait until infestors. Either way works great to be completely honest ^_^. On June 17 2012 09:34 oOOoOphidian wrote: I definitely think you need a baneling nest in case your opponent goes for a roach/baneling attack before infestors pop. Even if you don't open banelings, you should make one. I haven't done this enough to really know if a proper roach/baneling timing can be held with this without banelings, but either way it's definitely easier to hold with banelings of your own. Agreed, as you will notice if you watch the replay it is very effective as his 5 speed banes going for my lings died to 2 banes and thus I held :D | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
*edit | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
One thing I would like to see is the answer to Roach/BANELING/Ling aggression before infestors pop. This brilliant player gave his idea. On June 15 2012 08:49 StarBrift wrote: The only problem I faced was roach/bane all ins before infestors pop. You need a lot of spread spines to defend this but you also need the spines somewhat close together to kill the roaches as they are going to be your main source of dps while the lings soak damage. The problem comes when the banes get close to your spines. They will blow up your spines if you let them get too close. But if you try and run after them with banes of your own then he will back off and snipe them with roaches. A neat trick I found that is really hard but worked sometimes for me is that you manually detonate your own banes to catch his banes right outside of spines range. This is tricky but if you succeed you will have used the range of bane explosion to save the lives of your spines and you'll win the battle. Since you rely primarily on lings and spines + a few defensive banelings for defense with this build, enemy banelings along with roaches must be a big threat before fungal is available. Baneling is good vs both your lings and spines, so a few good enemy baneling hits could be instant gg, although this is kidna true for general early game ZvZ... If insanely good micro for your own defensive banelings and spine target firing is necessary to hold, then maybe this build might be high risk compared to roach builds. I have not tried enough times to give my opinion, so having dedicated section on "Holding Roach/BANELING aggression" might help me and us all further. Again, thanks for the great guide!! | ||
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Mauzel
United States421 Posts
I'm uncomfortable with the blind spine and baneling nest. If you're going +1/+1 you won't need the baneling nest. Diligent scouting and very good macro will allow you to always have more lings than your opponent before they get to your base, especially if they have spent 150/50 on a baneling nest and you have not; just never lose contact with the enemies army (engage if they start to build baneling nests). I would only build additional queens and spines if you smell a baneling all-in coming. I would save the baneling nest for builds where your opponent is going +1/+1 earlier than you. Otherwise, get it after you start your lair. Same deal with the spine. I don't think I've played against an all-in where I've absolutely needed a blind spine crawler. Most roach/baneling all-ins I've played against can be beaten with reactive spines except on maps/positions with particularly small rush distances. The key is delaying by threatening to backstab with lings and then to ensure that you'll have lings in position to surround the roach ball when they attack your base. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 17 2012 22:54 Mauzel wrote: If I scouted this I would do an identical build but go spire tech instead of infestor tech, and take advantage of the additional map control I have to take a 4th and maybe a 5th, and then turtle with mass spine, while waiting to go for a base trade / trying to deny 4th. If you're only making 4 infestors initially, I think the muta harass will somewhat effective. Furthermore, I'll be able to have complete map vision by killing your overlords. I'm uncomfortable with the blind spine and baneling nest. If you're going +1/+1 you won't need the baneling nest. Diligent scouting and very good macro will allow you to always have more lings than your opponent before they get to your base, especially if they have spent 150/50 on a baneling nest and you have not; just never lose contact with the enemies army (engage if they start to build baneling nests). I would only build additional queens and spines if you smell a baneling all-in coming. I would save the baneling nest for builds where your opponent is going +1/+1 earlier than you. Otherwise, get it after you start your lair. Same deal with the spine. I don't think I've played against an all-in where I've absolutely needed a blind spine crawler. Most roach/baneling all-ins I've played against can be beaten with reactive spines except on maps/positions with particularly small rush distances. The key is delaying by threatening to backstab with lings and then to ensure that you'll have lings in position to surround the roach ball when they attack your base. Hm I really disagree with you on pretty much everything. Vs mutalisks you need more then 4 infestors, I said this I believe in the guide that against mutalisks you need to make a lot more then 4 before going hive. You will make at minimum 4 and then you can go hive but you still add more to your army, it's not like you just make 4 and that's it. Also going mutalisks, good luck getting a fast 4'th and then a 5'th base. If the zerg going ling/infestor is playing it right he will deny your third until mutalisks pop, do you really think you can go fast 4'th, let alone a 5'th base? You would die to a straight up ling/infestor attack. You can see double evo but lots of players go 1/1 carapace/range and go roaches and not the ling/infestor style (I play a lot of zergs who do this). They get their roach warren after they start their third and rely on ling/bane to hold it normally as well. So by the time you scout he's going ling/infestor (which you would need to do with an overseer) you wont' be able to reactively go spire. For your reactive spine crawlers, a lot of the times roach/ling if they just go straight for your base will get there before spine crawlers finish and then you will die. Also with this build you need spine crawlers up anyway even if he doesn't do this because going pure ling/infestor and no spine support will die to roach/infestor timings, roach timings in general. Also with your no baneling nest, again heaviliy disagree. The best way to hold roach/speedbane/ling all in? spines + your own banelings. Much better then relying on some queens and a few spines to hold 15+ speed banes rolling in. Think those will all die fast to those? No way not if they do a pre-infestor timing (which one of the replays has). Also you can be more greedy, instead of having to make a ton of lings blindly at times, you can have 2 banes and have both bases saturated before starting mass ling production (unless you see him all inning). Its 100/50, 100 gas if you count the 2 banes you should make. Not going to be a big deal whatsoever. You will notice most zergs (pro ones) also like the one spine crawler at a certain time even when they are doing standard roaches and what not. On June 17 2012 22:01 Orek wrote: Great guide. Thank you for the time and effort you put into this. One thing I would like to see is the answer to Roach/BANELING/Ling aggression before infestors pop. This brilliant player gave his idea. Since you rely primarily on lings and spines + a few defensive banelings for defense with this build, enemy banelings along with roaches must be a big threat before fungal is available. Baneling is good vs both your lings and spines, so a few good enemy baneling hits could be instant gg, although this is kidna true for general early game ZvZ... If insanely good micro for your own defensive banelings and spine target firing is necessary to hold, then maybe this build might be high risk compared to roach builds. I have not tried enough times to give my opinion, so having dedicated section on "Holding Roach/BANELING aggression" might help me and us all further. Again, thanks for the great guide!! Yes there is a replay available show casing me defending, but I will update the guide soon to add a section on it since it has been asked a lot ^_^. | ||
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RedDragon571
United States633 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/?aipawnb51ko2p15 This is a game where the player goes mutalisks http://www.mediafire.com/?hph80ghbgo48f8i Also added defending against speedbane/roach timings in the OP! | ||
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