EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 49
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Draikin
7 Posts
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Snoodles
401 Posts
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/textured-cherry-mx-keycap.html My biggest problem so far has been getting back to home row, especially losing my pinky position, after any sort of reach but that's quickly getting worked out. I've lost count of how many times I've lifted raxes when I meant to make marauders. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On August 04 2012 21:44 Draikin wrote: I have to say that moving everything to the right side of the keyboard is probably the main reason I won't be using this. I understand the reasoning behind TheCore but I don't entirely agree with it. Contrary to what is suggested in the Youtube movie I do in fact have the little finger resting on the Shift key when I use the WASD keys. Since that's one of the main reasons for moving everything to the right side of the keyboard, I already have to question the point in using TheCore, since I use WSAD in all of my games. If anything it got me to rethink my current hotkey layout, but not to the point where I'll be moving from the WSAD keys. Tradition not based in reason holds back progress. | ||
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Draikin
7 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:14 JaKaTaK wrote: Tradition not based in reason holds back progress. Which is why I explained my reasoning. In your video you state that using your pinky to hit Shift is probably not the best way to do it, especially when it's not under your pinky. But at least for me Shift is in fact already the default position for my pinky. So given that, I'm really not seeing the benefit in making such a drastic change. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:48 Draikin wrote: Which is why I explained my reasoning. In your video you state that using your pinky to hit Shift is probably not the best way to do it, especially when it's not under your pinky. But at least for me Shift is in fact already the default position for my pinky. So given that, I'm really not seeing the benefit in making such a drastic change. The thumb is stronger than the pinky. Simple. It's not the main reasoning behind the hotkey layout, either. There's easier camera hotkeys, easier control groups, and just more comfortable hotkeys in general. Jak's previous layout gave someone a 300% boost in APM. If I had to put a number to it, I think this layout could potentially improve APM by 1000%. Moving the home keys to JIOP isn't very drastic, either. Just because I speak English in all my conversations doesn't mean I can only speak English. (Not the best comparison since it's a thousand times easier than learning a new language) | ||
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
On August 05 2012 03:29 Antylamon wrote: The thumb is stronger than the pinky. Simple. It's not the main reasoning behind the hotkey layout, either. There's easier camera hotkeys, easier control groups, and just more comfortable hotkeys in general. Jak's previous layout gave someone a 300% boost in APM. If I had to put a number to it, I think this layout could potentially improve APM by 1000%. Moving the home keys to JIOP isn't very drastic, either. Just because I speak English in all my conversations doesn't mean I can only speak English. (Not the best comparison since it's a thousand times easier than learning a new language) That's ridiculous. 300% boost in APM overnight? Bull. Hotkeys and APM purely depend on the user. I personally have all of my hotkeys on the left side of the keyboard because I'm used to playing FPS's. How fast and comfortable one is with a hotkey setup is based upon an individual users preference. ForGG is known to use the entire span of his keyboard and he still gets over 300APM and kicks ass on ladder and in tournaments. It's purely based upon user preference and if he doesn't think it will help him increase speed or button accuracy because he finds it uncomfortable then it won't. This isn't progress as JaKaTaK says, it's his own preference that he's trying to make popular. | ||
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Quaterno
United Kingdom69 Posts
On August 05 2012 04:27 BlackPanther wrote: That's ridiculous. 300% boost in APM overnight? Bull. Hotkeys and APM purely depend on the user. I personally have all of my hotkeys on the left side of the keyboard because I'm used to playing FPS's. How fast and comfortable one is with a hotkey setup is based upon an individual users preference. ForGG is known to use the entire span of his keyboard and he still gets over 300APM and kicks ass on ladder and in tournaments. It's purely based upon user preference and if he doesn't think it will help him increase speed or button accuracy because he finds it uncomfortable then it won't. This isn't progress as JaKaTaK says, it's his own preference that he's trying to make popular. I don't think he said overnight but yeah... | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
When Galileo Galilei defended the theory that the earth revolved around the sun, he came under intense criticism, scrutiny and even ridicule from a church that knew very little about science. The fortunate fact is that everything in Starcraft, or any programmed game, is objective. In other words, there is always a correct way to do something. Usually in an RTS, we want our actions to be 1) as fast as possible, 2) as comfortable as possible, and 3) once learned, as easy to execute as possible. What Foxy and Jak did, was use X amount of replays to generate which functions are used most often in the game. Then, they tested various keyboard layouts to find which was the most efficient. Finally, they mapped the most used functions to the easiest/fastest/most comfortable keys. While more lab testing could be done, and while neither Jak nor Foxy is a Ph.d n physics or ergonomics, I believe that their data is very sound. You are correct to say that it is Jak's preference that he is trying to make popular, but if it is his preference, there is a lot of empirical evidence behind why it is so. As for your comment about ForGG; I invite you to consider the following: despite the drugs, Barry Bonds was an extremely good hitter in baseball. Yet, his batting stance and technique was notoriously bad. His hips don't allign, his shoulders are out of sync, and a lot more technical mistakes permeated through his swing. But, he was strong as an ox, and understood how to make his body execute near-100% of its potential force. Still, if you were teaching a 7 year old baseball, you would not, i hope, teach him Bonds, lackluster-of-a-stance, you'd teach him or her the most efficient, body position possible for that individual. It is mathematically correct to say that everyone is different, but it is also true that for each individual, only one hotkley setup is most efficient. Because of the anatomy of our hands, it is likely that the same hotkey layout is very close to being optimal for each regular handed human being. I send out this long post, because I would very much like you to give it a serious go. I think you will find that it will boost your ability to play the game properly, which, if you care about it, will increase your APM. No one made the claim that it boosted APM by 300% overnight, rather the claim was that that particular individual was able to become more efficient through time, and eventually surpassed his pre-jak's-previous-layout APM by 300%. I wish you the very best of luck. | ||
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
The problem is that people's claims on a forum thread without actual data backing an increase in EPM is not enough to claim that this is superior to every other hotkey method and trying to claim so without a followup study is poor science. You can say that they did the math and computer modeling but so far there has been no actual independent work done to find out if the hotkey method actually works as the designers say it does. Also, why did you make an account just to say that? | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Intuitively we can agree that a) the thumb is stronger than the pinky. b) that shift is the most used button, and that therefore c) the thumb should hit shift. We can also agree that the tilt ergonomically makes sense. We can agree that having all ten control groups within 2 spaces of any finger is better than 8 or 9 spaces away. In truth, while the science isn't perfect, the logic certainly is. I simply find it difficult to conceive of sound arguments against using it. | ||
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
On August 05 2012 05:30 Ninjury_J wrote: Hahaha perceptive of you. I didn't, I've been meaning to make one for a while. I'm an engineering student, I'm well aware that the science behind this is, by academic measures, non-existent. BUT, for what it is, they did a very good job. If you take a look at the data document and development document, you will see their data and how they obtained it. It isn't perfect, but I invite you to find a system where more work, scientific or otherwise, has been done to optimize it. Intuitively we can agree that a) the thumb is stronger than the pinky. b) that shift is the most used button, and that therefore c) the thumb should hit shift. We can also agree that the tilt ergonomically makes sense. We can agree that having all ten control groups within 2 spaces of any finger is better than 8 or 9 spaces away. In truth, while the science isn't perfect, the logic certainly is. I simply find it difficult to conceive of sound arguments against using it. I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning with why the thumb needs to press shift rather than the pinky. I have no trouble using the pinky for shift at all. It doesn't bother after long SC2 sessions and it's not as if the shift key requires a large amount of force to press down. If anything, people are inherently used to using their left pinky to press shift and no one has the need to remap buttons away from their pinky so I don't see why using the thumb would improve shift key usage. It may be a stronger finger but I find that my thumb is no more quicker than my pinky. I'm not as informed on the way the hand is tilted and how much it improves the way one types or plays so I won't comment on that. Yes, having ten control groups within 2 spaces is better than 8 or 9 spaces away but that's not exclusive to JakAtaK's method. I have control groups on ~, q, w, and e as well as 1-6 and that's all fairly within reach of my left hand and I have slightly smaller hands than normal. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8001 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
It turns out the pinky is great for downward curls, and quick action, but not so great for sideways holding down motions... which is exactly what we use the thumb for in the core. Again, I'm not saying it is better then any conceivable hotkey layout, I'm saying that out of all the ones that currently exist, there is no argument as to why any of them are superior to this one... If you can find one, I'm positive Jak and Foxy will change the layout to solve that bug... that is what this beta is for after all. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1039 Posts
On August 05 2012 04:58 Ninjury_J wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Dear BlackPanther, When Galileo Galilei defended the theory that the earth revolved around the sun, he came under intense criticism, scrutiny and even ridicule from a church that knew very little about science. The fortunate fact is that everything in Starcraft, or any programmed game, is objective. In other words, there is always a correct way to do something. Usually in an RTS, we want our actions to be 1) as fast as possible, 2) as comfortable as possible, and 3) once learned, as easy to execute as possible. What Foxy and Jak did, was use X amount of replays to generate which functions are used most often in the game. Then, they tested various keyboard layouts to find which was the most efficient. Finally, they mapped the most used functions to the easiest/fastest/most comfortable keys. While more lab testing could be done, and while neither Jak nor Foxy is a Ph.d n physics or ergonomics, I believe that their data is very sound. You are correct to say that it is Jak's preference that he is trying to make popular, but if it is his preference, there is a lot of empirical evidence behind why it is so. As for your comment about ForGG; I invite you to consider the following: despite the drugs, Barry Bonds was an extremely good hitter in baseball. Yet, his batting stance and technique was notoriously bad. His hips don't allign, his shoulders are out of sync, and a lot more technical mistakes permeated through his swing. But, he was strong as an ox, and understood how to make his body execute near-100% of its potential force. Still, if you were teaching a 7 year old baseball, you would not, i hope, teach him Bonds, lackluster-of-a-stance, you'd teach him or her the most efficient, body position possible for that individual. It is mathematically correct to say that everyone is different, but it is also true that for each individual, only one hotkley setup is most efficient. Because of the anatomy of our hands, it is likely that the same hotkey layout is very close to being optimal for each regular handed human being. I send out this long post, because I would very much like you to give it a serious go. I think you will find that it will boost your ability to play the game properly, which, if you care about it, will increase your APM. No one made the claim that it boosted APM by 300% overnight, rather the claim was that that particular individual was able to become more efficient through time, and eventually surpassed his pre-jak's-previous-layout APM by 300%. I wish you the very best of luck. The difference between this and Galileo is that Galileo could easily prove that he was right and he could potentially use his knowledge to make accurate predictions. Also, nobody is seriously threatening Jakatak's life for pushing forth his theory. This system makes a lot of assumptions and has nothing resembling scientific evidence to back it up yet. At best, there's a random testimonial or two and a lot of theorycrafting. It assumes that having your two hands closer will help you coordinate them better together like on a piano. However, whereas a piano uses the same motion on both hands, a mouse/keyboard setup uses two very different motions. The coordination effect might not exist. It also assumes that the thumb is a better finger to hit buttons with because it's stronger. I agree that it's stronger, but since when is strength required to press a key on a keyboard? Personally, I think my thumb is pretty slow and unwieldy... kinda like asking the hulk to press a key rather than using the nimble fingers of a pianist. If you really want to prove that this system works, I'd recommend putting it to a scientific test if you can get the volunteers. Preferably, you'd find a group of people who've never played starcraft before and have similar typing skills. Then split them up into two groups with one using grid setup (or standard hotkeys) and one group using The Core. Give them the same practice regimen on each setup and then put them through a test at the end. Whichever group completes the test better/faster on average would show the setup to be superior. That'd be the best way to prove The Core works. You could also use veterans of Starcraft who use the standard setup and then have half switch to grid and half switch to the Core and see which group comes out best. As of now, I believe all high level pros use some variation of the two main hotkey setups (grid and standard). Alternative to a standardized test, if someone is able to become a high level pro with this setup, there'll be evidence that this setup is viable at the highest levels... and could encourage people to test it more to see if its actually superior. Until then, there's no evidence that this is actually anything more than a preference. Finally, there's the potential for future compatibility issues and the need to redo the hotkeys and relearn things which will slow down your progress. Something like the Grid setup will always be viable unless Blizzard changes the grid in the in-game GUI. Any changes (such as new abilities in HotS) will be very intuitive to learn with grid. I made the switch from standard to grid a few seasons into SC2 and it was reasonably easy to do. The Core seems a whole lot less intuitive and will probably take a lot longer to learn... and that time is time not spent getting better at the game. | ||
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
Couldn't have said it better myself  . | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
I dod disagree with your last paragraph though. None of the races are experiences huge hall overs. If by intuitive, you mean easy to remember, then you are correct. Still, hard to learn doesn't mean hard yo use. And the best way to learn the core is to practice mechanics, thereby, playing the game! (about the hands... your brain understands where your body is in relation to itself the closer together it is. While it has been tested on piano, it is a reasonable assumption to believe that it is true of other things as well, especially since it is concerned with motor activity and not music in the brain.) I don't think it assumes that about the thumb. It assumes that if the thumb stays in relatively the same place, it will achieve pressing things easier. You don't need to move it so much. If you did, I'd agree that it is clumsy and less than optimal. I appreciate you're easy to read post and logic. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On August 05 2012 05:42 BlackPanther wrote: I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning with why the thumb needs to press shift rather than the pinky. I have no trouble using the pinky for shift at all. It doesn't bother after long SC2 sessions and it's not as if the shift key requires a large amount of force to press down. If anything, people are inherently used to using their left pinky to press shift and no one has the need to remap buttons away from their pinky so I don't see why using the thumb would improve shift key usage. It may be a stronger finger but I find that my thumb is no more quicker than my pinky. I was in the same boat after my first day of trying to use The Core. Like, wtf mate, pressing ctrl/shift/alt with the thumb is just weird. The best argument for using the thumb on ctrl/shift/alt is simply this: it frees up all 4 of your other fingers on the keyboard. With typical hotkey layouts, you have your thumb resting around space bar, and unless you are using space bar, you do not use your thumb whatsoever. So, for any commands that involve ctrl, shift, or alt, you have to use your pinky, and then you have 3 other fingers to press other keys. With TheCore, you have 4 fingers available to press hotkeys/cameras/abilities, etc. Is this a huge difference? No. Is it awkward to press ctrl/shift/alt with your thumb at first? Yes. Does it take a bit of extra learning time to get used to it? Yes. Is it worth it? For me, I think so. For everyone, I don't know. But I do think there is good reasoning behind the decision. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
Time to cite my sources :D en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard This hotkey layout is equivalent to an ergonomic keyboard. I'm sure you can relate to this quote: "An ergonomic keyboard may reduce muscle strain and reduce risk of carpal tunnel syndrome, but there is no clear evidence of benefit. Manufacturers claim ergonomic keyboards reduce injuries, and that after a user takes the time to adjust to this style of keyboard, ergonomic keyboards can make typing easier, faster and less awkward." TheCore is in the same exact boat. Users support the manufacturer's claims of benefit, even though there is no definite evidence to support it. | ||
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rofllocktree
Netherlands45 Posts
I have some questions that I feel like they are asked before for sure but this thread is just o long to search for it, so here I go: 1:When I use the Jump to camera hotkey with CTRL+SHIFT+ O for example, the CTRL+SHIFT activates something on my computer and after that my "' ' button is suddenly becoming the gather button and the buttons for build structure and build advanced structure are changed as well. 2: The jump to camera hotkeys feel very un-natural especially coming from the just F1-F2-F3 Etc. so I was wondering if I do it good, I put my thumb on CTRL, index finger on SHIFT and then ring finger on P or pinky on O, is that right? thx again for this great hotkey setup! | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On August 05 2012 11:37 rofllocktree wrote: 1:When I use the Jump to camera hotkey with CTRL+SHIFT+ O for example, the CTRL+SHIFT activates something on my computer and after that my "' ' button is suddenly becoming the gather button and the buttons for build structure and build advanced structure are changed as well. I have no idea about this -- sorry  On August 05 2012 11:37 rofllocktree wrote: 2: The jump to camera hotkeys feel very un-natural especially coming from the just F1-F2-F3 Etc. so I was wondering if I do it good, I put my thumb on CTRL, index finger on SHIFT and then ring finger on P or pinky on O, is that right? I believe the idea is to angle the keyboard slightly such that your thumb rests across the ctrl and shift keys. This should make it very easy to press ctrl+shift with just your thumb, with the rest of your hand still on the resting position of j-i-o-p. This is how I'm doing it, and although it's still unnatural for me (I've only used it for a few days), switching cameras is pretty easy doing it this way. | ||
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