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On June 19 2012 08:23 JaKaTaK wrote:@Tzuborg Show nested quote +I can't really understand why. Just set inject larvae to [ (or any key that's not also used for locations). Works perfectly fine when I do it. The issue is that you have to repress the inject button for every inject, whereas if you can set recall cam to ctrl+shift you don't have to. This allows a much faster inject as you can keep your hand on the homekeys for all but 1 of the camera recalls (in your example you have to take your hand off the home keys 2 times as well as 1 extra button press for every base beyond the 1st) Concerning the difficulty of pressing ctrl+shift, make sure your keyboard is tilted enough. Can you provide a video of what it looks like for you pressing ctrl+shift to recall vs ctrl to recall, I don't see where the difficulty is coming in. As far as messing up your control groups. If you set all your base cameras to your main at the beginning of the game, you should not have any issues messing up your control groups because of the ctrl+shift combo. This layout will not sacrifice any of the 10 control groups. The other issue with this proposed change is that you will run into various repetitive finger use, which is a huge speed sacrifice. The pinky is much stronger than you might think it is, training pinky dexterity will greatly improve your play.
Ah, I understand. However, there are probably ways around that, if need be. I don't play Zerg atm. so it's not that big of a deal for me, but I could look into it if there are more people who prefer ctrl over shift + ctrl for cameras.
The thing about shift + ctrl isn't that it's hard, but that I feel it requires an actual effort. With ctrl I can just tap really quick, but with ctrl + shift I've got to really focus on it in order to not accidentally hit just one and totally mess up all the control groups.
I want to be able to move back to base really quick in a stressful situation, which I didn't feel ctrl + shift completely allowed me to. Like I said, though, it might be easier for people with bigger hands.
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On June 19 2012 20:51 Tzuborg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 08:23 JaKaTaK wrote:@Tzuborg I can't really understand why. Just set inject larvae to [ (or any key that's not also used for locations). Works perfectly fine when I do it. The issue is that you have to repress the inject button for every inject, whereas if you can set recall cam to ctrl+shift you don't have to. This allows a much faster inject as you can keep your hand on the homekeys for all but 1 of the camera recalls (in your example you have to take your hand off the home keys 2 times as well as 1 extra button press for every base beyond the 1st) Concerning the difficulty of pressing ctrl+shift, make sure your keyboard is tilted enough. Can you provide a video of what it looks like for you pressing ctrl+shift to recall vs ctrl to recall, I don't see where the difficulty is coming in. As far as messing up your control groups. If you set all your base cameras to your main at the beginning of the game, you should not have any issues messing up your control groups because of the ctrl+shift combo. This layout will not sacrifice any of the 10 control groups. The other issue with this proposed change is that you will run into various repetitive finger use, which is a huge speed sacrifice. The pinky is much stronger than you might think it is, training pinky dexterity will greatly improve your play. Ah, I understand. However, there are probably ways around that, if need be. I don't play Zerg atm. so it's not that big of a deal for me, but I could look into it if there are more people who prefer ctrl over shift + ctrl for cameras. The thing about shift + ctrl isn't that it's hard, but that I feel it requires an actual effort. With ctrl I can just tap really quick, but with ctrl + shift I've got to really focus on it in order to not accidentally hit just one and totally mess up all the control groups. I want to be able to move back to base really quick in a stressful situation, which I didn't feel ctrl + shift completely allowed me to. Like I said, though, it might be easier for people with bigger hands.
Its strange to me how some people have such a hard time pressing shift and ctrl at the same time with their thumb.
I wonder if this is due to people having different thumb anatomy. Remember in science class when you learned attached earlobes vs non attached. I think there is also a hitch-hikers thumb and a non hitch-hikers thumb. Is it possible that this Ctrl + Shift motion is easier with a hitchhikers thumb? I think i have a hitchhikers thumb and i can easily press ctrl + shift.
Can you take a picture of your thumb attempting to press ctrl & shift at the same time?
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On June 19 2012 21:55 wc4482 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 20:51 Tzuborg wrote:On June 19 2012 08:23 JaKaTaK wrote:@Tzuborg I can't really understand why. Just set inject larvae to [ (or any key that's not also used for locations). Works perfectly fine when I do it. The issue is that you have to repress the inject button for every inject, whereas if you can set recall cam to ctrl+shift you don't have to. This allows a much faster inject as you can keep your hand on the homekeys for all but 1 of the camera recalls (in your example you have to take your hand off the home keys 2 times as well as 1 extra button press for every base beyond the 1st) Concerning the difficulty of pressing ctrl+shift, make sure your keyboard is tilted enough. Can you provide a video of what it looks like for you pressing ctrl+shift to recall vs ctrl to recall, I don't see where the difficulty is coming in. As far as messing up your control groups. If you set all your base cameras to your main at the beginning of the game, you should not have any issues messing up your control groups because of the ctrl+shift combo. This layout will not sacrifice any of the 10 control groups. The other issue with this proposed change is that you will run into various repetitive finger use, which is a huge speed sacrifice. The pinky is much stronger than you might think it is, training pinky dexterity will greatly improve your play. Ah, I understand. However, there are probably ways around that, if need be. I don't play Zerg atm. so it's not that big of a deal for me, but I could look into it if there are more people who prefer ctrl over shift + ctrl for cameras. The thing about shift + ctrl isn't that it's hard, but that I feel it requires an actual effort. With ctrl I can just tap really quick, but with ctrl + shift I've got to really focus on it in order to not accidentally hit just one and totally mess up all the control groups. I want to be able to move back to base really quick in a stressful situation, which I didn't feel ctrl + shift completely allowed me to. Like I said, though, it might be easier for people with bigger hands. Its strange to me how some people have such a hard time pressing shift and ctrl at the same time with their thumb. I wonder if this is due to people having different thumb anatomy. Remember in science class when you learned attached earlobes vs non attached. I think there is also a hitch-hikers thumb and a non hitch-hikers thumb. Is it possible that this Ctrl + Shift motion is easier with a hitchhikers thumb? I think i have a hitchhikers thumb and i can easily press ctrl + shift. Can you take a picture of your thumb attempting to press ctrl & shift at the same time?
I guess, but I'm content using ctrl so it doesn't really matter for me anymore. With ctrl I don't even need the tilt.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1rlQ4.jpg)
Also no mocking of my cheap, swedish Clas Ohlson keyboard.
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On June 19 2012 22:34 Tzuborg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 21:55 wc4482 wrote:On June 19 2012 20:51 Tzuborg wrote:On June 19 2012 08:23 JaKaTaK wrote:@Tzuborg I can't really understand why. Just set inject larvae to [ (or any key that's not also used for locations). Works perfectly fine when I do it. The issue is that you have to repress the inject button for every inject, whereas if you can set recall cam to ctrl+shift you don't have to. This allows a much faster inject as you can keep your hand on the homekeys for all but 1 of the camera recalls (in your example you have to take your hand off the home keys 2 times as well as 1 extra button press for every base beyond the 1st) Concerning the difficulty of pressing ctrl+shift, make sure your keyboard is tilted enough. Can you provide a video of what it looks like for you pressing ctrl+shift to recall vs ctrl to recall, I don't see where the difficulty is coming in. As far as messing up your control groups. If you set all your base cameras to your main at the beginning of the game, you should not have any issues messing up your control groups because of the ctrl+shift combo. This layout will not sacrifice any of the 10 control groups. The other issue with this proposed change is that you will run into various repetitive finger use, which is a huge speed sacrifice. The pinky is much stronger than you might think it is, training pinky dexterity will greatly improve your play. Ah, I understand. However, there are probably ways around that, if need be. I don't play Zerg atm. so it's not that big of a deal for me, but I could look into it if there are more people who prefer ctrl over shift + ctrl for cameras. The thing about shift + ctrl isn't that it's hard, but that I feel it requires an actual effort. With ctrl I can just tap really quick, but with ctrl + shift I've got to really focus on it in order to not accidentally hit just one and totally mess up all the control groups. I want to be able to move back to base really quick in a stressful situation, which I didn't feel ctrl + shift completely allowed me to. Like I said, though, it might be easier for people with bigger hands. Its strange to me how some people have such a hard time pressing shift and ctrl at the same time with their thumb. I wonder if this is due to people having different thumb anatomy. Remember in science class when you learned attached earlobes vs non attached. I think there is also a hitch-hikers thumb and a non hitch-hikers thumb. Is it possible that this Ctrl + Shift motion is easier with a hitchhikers thumb? I think i have a hitchhikers thumb and i can easily press ctrl + shift. Can you take a picture of your thumb attempting to press ctrl & shift at the same time? I guess, but I'm content using ctrl so it doesn't really matter for me anymore. With ctrl I don't even need the tilt. Also no mocking of my cheap, swedish Clas Ohlson keyboard.
I see... Your thumb indeed looks like mine... The only thing i can suggest is that when you go to press ctrl and shift with the thumb, that you visualize pressing the joint of your thumb in the space between ctrl and shift. I don't know how else to explain it, sorry.
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I really cannot get behind this keyboard setup. I enjoy the shift+ctrl setup for the camera recall functionality, however the rest of the buttons seem very uncomfortable to use especially when you tilt your keyboard so your thumb more properly aligns with shift+ctrl.
Darkgrid for me seems much more natural and far more comfortable, however Dark Grid doesn't lock it's camera to the selected hatch and requires 1 more button to jump to a camera position than the core does. So I edited Dark Grid.
To be honest, after changing Bind Camera to Ctrl+Alt, Jump to Camera Position to Shift, and Center camera on selection to Alt, Dark Grid has proven for me at least to be far more functional and logical. My fingers feel very cramped using the core.
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If anybody has questions JaK is streaming and making changes to theCORE right now. So if you have questions about the layout or just want to see how he makes these hotkeys go on to http://www.twitch.tv/thejakatak.
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On June 20 2012 01:06 Fairchild wrote:
I really cannot get behind this keyboard setup. I enjoy the shift+ctrl setup for the camera recall functionality, however the rest of the buttons seem very uncomfortable to use especially when you tilt your keyboard so your thumb more properly aligns with shift+ctrl.
Isn't the point of tilting the keyboard getting your fingers to more naturally curl down to the k, l, and ; keys from i, o, and p (and to a lesser extent j down to m). This feels very comfortable to me, and with the two keys between alt and ctrl removed from the left side my thumb easily rests half on the shift key / half in the empty space, and lines up nicely to hit ctrl+shift. I have large-ish hands though, so maybe that is why it feels right.
(Using the Toyota Corolla of keyboards, the Dell SK 8115 =] )
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i've played 30+ matches now using this layout since last week and while it has some advantages I still don't feel its perfect
biggest issues are
all the thumb keys shift and ctrl / and shift ctrl in combination, even after playing so many games they are still uncomfortable and adding units to army hotkeys is much slower than using a standard layout or darkgrid
- layered inject / camera > faster on darkgrid > no improvement
- using the non mouse version the army hotkeys doesn't feel right, I can't count how many games i've lost because of bad army controll P and O would be perfect for that, but they have the hatches/queens assigned to them and hatch on mouse button is too slow for a zerg player since we spam "4sd"
- alt to set cameras is ok, although its not comfortable the center on selection makes it relatively fast
biggest complaint
the two keys ?/ and .> build 1 and build 2, also used for zerglings are the most uncomfortable to use,
they are not fast at all, when playing a game these slow me down the most closely followed by the
camera location recall buttons
some building are so weird and uncomfortable to build
biggest reason for that are the two build buttons especially the build advanced is not comfortable or fast to press
for example
baneling nest
every advanced building, so uncomfortable that i sometimes use the mouse
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On June 20 2012 05:41 maLaK1 wrote:
i've played 30+ matches now using this layout since last week and while it has some advantages I still don't feel its perfect
biggest issues are
all the thumb keys shift and ctrl / and shift ctrl in combination, even after playing so many games they are still uncomfortable and adding units to army hotkeys is much slower than using a standard layout or darkgrid
- layered inject / camera > faster on darkgrid > no improvement
- using the non mouse version the army hotkeys doesn't feel right, I can't count how many games i've lost because of bad army controll P and O would be perfect for that, but they have the hatches/queens assigned to them and hatch on mouse button is too slow for a zerg player since we spam "4sd"
- alt to set cameras is ok, although its not comfortable the center on selection makes it relatively fast
biggest complaint
the two keys ?/ and .> build 1 and build 2, also used for zerglings are the most uncomfortable to use,
they are not fast at all, when playing a game these slow me down the most closely followed by the
camera location recall buttons
some building are so weird and uncomfortable to build
biggest reason for that are the two build buttons especially the build advanced is not comfortable or fast to press
for example
baneling nest
every advanced building, so uncomfortable that i sometimes use the mouse
You should see this:
On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines as Uoeahtns, and remapped a bit accordingly. I now have a setup I'm currently VERY satisfied with.
L, ; and [ is no longer control groups, but ability keys. ; is build basic structures, and [ is for advanced (plus other stuff ofc.)
The control groups were set to respectively backspace and \, which gives me 9 control groups in total, and if if I ever need a 10th (which I doubt I will) I can just use enter.
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D
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Just a note... i figured the attack key should probably go somewhere else. I personally have it on middle mouse button, because hitting middle and left is really intuitive and smooth. I mean... how often do you actually press attack in any battle anyway? like... 10 times? you don't attack with the attack command: mutas, infestors, banelings. you DO attackmove: lings, roaches, ultras.
I just feel like for your rhythm producing stuff, queens should go on J. But that's maybe personal preferrence.
Btw, on "-" I have all main ablilities of units (Infested Terrans, produce queen, morph banes, inject, build, build spine, and so on).
In addition, I have all hatches on "Ö"... the button right of "L". Select Larvae is "L".
Produce Drones is "K", Produce Lings is "L", Produce Overlords "H".
So to produce Drones, it's "ÖLK". You can't get any more convenient than that.
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People like you are the reason why i love Starcraft.
It amazes me how so many people put so much effort in little things, just like you guys did, and that shows an incredible level of commitmet about your hobby.
Things like this setup, or that replay analyzer that other guy did (cant remember his name) are what trully make e-sports grow. Simple stuff that builds around the game some extra content and make everything much more interesting.
I'm already trying this out (just because i loved the effort you've put into this project) and i'm having a REALLY HARD TIME getting used to it, played like 5 build orders and still feels like i have shit on my hands or something lol, but i'll stick to it, and only time will tell if i'll make it my main setup.
Yet, i want to congratulate you again, keep up the good work you are doing, not only for a better hotkey setup, but for all the passion you already demonstraded for e-sports, you have my respect.
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On June 20 2012 07:39 Mahtasooma wrote:
Just a note... i figured the attack key should probably go somewhere else. I personally have it on middle mouse button, because hitting middle and left is really intuitive and smooth. I mean... how often do you actually press attack in any battle anyway? like... 10 times? you don't attack with the attack command: mutas, infestors, banelings. you DO attackmove: lings, roaches, ultras.
I just feel like for your rhythm producing stuff, queens should go on J. But that's maybe personal preferrence.
Btw, on "-" I have all main ablilities of units (Infested Terrans, produce queen, morph banes, inject, build, build spine, and so on).
In addition, I have all hatches on "Ö"... the button right of "L". Select Larvae is "L".
Produce Drones is "K", Produce Lings is "L", Produce Overlords "H".
So to produce Drones, it's "ÖLK". You can't get any more convenient than that.
For the Zerg ideas, these are random race layouts you're looking at. Efficiency was slightly sacrificed for consistency.
As for the attack change, this is a very opinion-based idea. For some it could work. For others it could be incredibly foreign and wierd, perhaps more so than thumb over shift.
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On June 20 2012 07:39 Mahtasooma wrote:
Just a note... i figured the attack key should probably go somewhere else. I personally have it on middle mouse button, because hitting middle and left is really intuitive and smooth. I mean... how often do you actually press attack in any battle anyway? like... 10 times? you don't attack with the attack command: mutas, infestors, banelings. you DO attackmove: lings, roaches, ultras.
I just feel like for your rhythm producing stuff, queens should go on J. But that's maybe personal preferrence.
Btw, on "-" I have all main ablilities of units (Infested Terrans, produce queen, morph banes, inject, build, build spine, and so on).
In addition, I have all hatches on "Ö"... the button right of "L". Select Larvae is "L".
Produce Drones is "K", Produce Lings is "L", Produce Overlords "H".
So to produce Drones, it's "ÖLK". You can't get any more convenient than that.
I am wondering if something went wrong: Are you using the German layout (you keep referring to Ö)? On that layout, the main abilities (fungal, corrupt,...) should already be on "-" and queens on "J", just as you suggest. I am just wondering if I made a mistake when I translated the layout.
I'll leave commenting on the other changes to others...
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On June 20 2012 17:11 asdir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 07:39 Mahtasooma wrote:
Just a note... i figured the attack key should probably go somewhere else. I personally have it on middle mouse button, because hitting middle and left is really intuitive and smooth. I mean... how often do you actually press attack in any battle anyway? like... 10 times? you don't attack with the attack command: mutas, infestors, banelings. you DO attackmove: lings, roaches, ultras.
I just feel like for your rhythm producing stuff, queens should go on J. But that's maybe personal preferrence.
Btw, on "-" I have all main ablilities of units (Infested Terrans, produce queen, morph banes, inject, build, build spine, and so on).
In addition, I have all hatches on "Ö"... the button right of "L". Select Larvae is "L".
Produce Drones is "K", Produce Lings is "L", Produce Overlords "H".
So to produce Drones, it's "ÖLK". You can't get any more convenient than that. I am wondering if something went wrong: Are you using the German layout (you keep referring to Ö)? On that layout, the main abilities (fungal, corrupt,...) should already be on "-" and queens on "J", just as you suggest. I am just wondering if I made a mistake when I translated the layout. I'll leave commenting on the other changes to others...
funny... I was switching the layout around for quite a bit and just using the very basic general idea of the layout, starting with just the hands on JIOP... looks like I might have ended up very similar to the current layout lol.
In any case, I find the produce workers setup very convenient. I already try to implement a pure flank / harrass control group into my play, which is really hard.
But, I have a naga, so all production and upgrades are on that, so I have a bit more free space to work with regarding control groups around JIOP.
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Can't wait for the new version. How is that coming Jak?
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I'm excited to test version 0.2 too. Hurry up JaKaTaK. :D
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Hey Jak, can you update your main post with how to inject with this setup? I am still unsure how it works. I think I'm suppossed to jump around with layored cameras, the only problem is the if I hit 'I' for the inject button, then I will only be sent to my natural. Am I always supposed to make sure that I select queens, inject, then hold control and shift and use camera keys and left click with mouse to inject in that exact order?
That's the only possible way to do it I imagine with this current setup.
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On June 21 2012 11:23 StratWaffle wrote:
Hey Jak, can you update your main post with how to inject with this setup? I am still unsure how it works. I think I'm suppossed to jump around with layored cameras, the only problem is the if I hit 'I' for the inject button, then I will only be sent to my natural. Am I always supposed to make sure that I select queens, inject, then hold control and shift and use camera keys and left click with mouse to inject in that exact order?
That's the only possible way to do it I imagine with this current setup.
That is the exact order for the layered inject. That is exactly how you do it.
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Just want to throw out a thank you. I've been practicing with this layout and I like it a lot. Prior to this I had never messed with my hotkeys even a little bit. I made one small change, and that was simply using 'O' for macro and 'P' for CCs because I have used 5 for macro and 6 for CCs since day one and I could not get my brain to accept the reverse positioning! Being a BW player I was always comfortable enough using hotkeys 1-0 and never even realized how much better things could be, lol.
As an added note to anyone who reads this and is thinking about giving it a shot, here's my recomendation. If you're like me and you've had a short list of mechanical issues in your play that you kept telling yourself you would fix "eventually", take this chance and do it all at once. In addition to the new hotkeys I've been training myself to shift-queue more; Use camera hotkeys more; and use multiple army hotkeys more.
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EPT
