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On June 23 2012 00:34 wc4482 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 22:27 asdir wrote:On June 22 2012 21:56 wc4482 wrote:
while the inject method is very good, I think the whole select Hatcheries Morph larva thing could be improved
the actual keys for drone/ling/overlord are optimal I think but maybe theres a better spot for the Select Larva Hotkey
also with Queens on J, you often build queens accidently, most zerg players spam
"4sd" all game, at least all early game in the case of this layout, when you have 0 larva and spam
P + ; + J to build drones as fast as your larva spawns you could often build a queen when you want to build a drone and you have no free larva
I don't agree that you're supposed to look at your larva and only spam Select Larva + Build Drone when you have free larva because, it isn't like that for zerg, compared to terran or protoss for example , where it is good to not queue too many scvs/probes and look at the building progress of your worker, to add a new worker shortly before the last one finishes
almost all zerg players do it, its the most common thing and the reason is to use the larva as fast as possible
its basically everything zergs do the first 6-8 minutes of a game
I forgot to mention that Jakatak intended for hatcheries to now be bound to O, not P as in the old version. This way you can use your middle finger for O to select hatches and then index will extend one key to the right to the [ key to select larvae. As far as spamming, try just spamming O [ O [ O [ O [. When larvae spawns you will notice the wireframe at the bottom of the screen change and you can then hit J. This seems to be the only way to spam in the core. It will take some getting used to and if you can't get behind it then you may just want to modify the core for your own purposes and change queens to some other key. But isn't the whole point of spamming that you don't have to wait to notice but can concentrate on other things? I wouldn't discount this as part of the game so easily. I for one was pretty happy when drone and overlord were switched between I and J in Core 0.1 and I could happily spam away again without accidentally building OLs. Though I have not tried new 0.2 yet, I don't see double tapping being a problem, as long as it is used for a unit that is spammed out anyway. I am wondering right now if difference in opinion here might be due to different keyboard repeat rates of players....hmmmmm You might also find that stepping out of the comfort zone of "1sd" or other drone creation spam will push your game to another level. You just have to be willing to accept the challenge. As far as "noticing" when the wireframe changes at the bottom of the screen, I'm not saying you stare at the bottom of the screen the whole time you are spamming O [ O [ O [ O [. Your peripheral vision will notice the giant green hatchery wireframe switch to a smaller green larvae wireframe without having to look at it. Just practice it a bit more and you will get the idea.
@comfort zone: I absolutely agree that "1SD" is something one can easily get rid of. In fact, I did when I adopted grid (1QQ) and later darkgrid (mouseWW). Both of the grids felt way more comfortable for spamming because larva and drones are on the same key. This is just something I would miss with the new improvements over Core 0.2.
Having said that, I could not possibly built other units by accident with "mouseII", because drones are the only ones I spam-build. For the others I have to look at the wireframe anyway because I add the eggs to groups.
@noticing: That's exactly how I understood the proposition. But still: I don't want to have to react to noticing. I want the drone to have been built by my spamming already. (BTW I am aware that we are discussing about small details here; either way, it would not be a big deal and I am aware that I can do what I want. I just like to discuss these things. :-) )
@another level: You have to forgive malak his aggressiveness. We have a rather important football ("soccer") match tonight.  (NVM, he edited. Wasn't too rude though.)
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hey hey hey! We're live, answering questions and working on a zerg specific layout!
http://www.twitch.tv/thejakatak
EDIT:
@Caleb
Having sentries in the main army is advantageous for guardian shield. You can cast all sentry spells from the main army hotkey and don't have to worry about them running to their death because they have a range 6 auto attack!
@wc4482
That is fucking awesome with the screen shots, well done there!
@Morrok
The second video in the OP explains how to do the inject. Also, the data document has a "suggested control group use" section that explains exactly what your looking for :D
@Ellessar
If you jump onto the ladder with this on your first go, you will most likely lose ranking. If you care about your ladder rank (which i suggest you don't) then practice against buddies, or ai until you feel comfy. Then go on the ladder and smash faces :D
Artwork is really time consuming, and because this is in beta, lots of changes will happen, making new artwork for every change would be very inefficient. We will have full artwork for all versions when we release 1.0 :D
@Zergs
We're working on solving the zerg issues RIGHT THE FUCK NOW!
Hell yea.
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nice that youre working on the zerg layout!
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On June 22 2012 20:00 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 19:06 scrub96 wrote:
played some games with this updated layout last night. I definitely prefer the old version. Going to ] and ' for build keys feels absolutely terrible vs the old / and . keys. Have some more camer keys close is nice but I really dont think this is an improvement over the old version. ... ... ... Do you have 7 fingers? The biggest issue with the original version of theCore was the movement of the thumb required to make a building. It was moved to a more comfortable position so that you could actually hit them without stressing your thumb. If it really feels more comfortable to use slash and period for buildings, then either you're doing it wrong or your hands are tiny or... I have no idea.
Im quite sure I am doing it right. The new build keys are just uncomfortable to hit if you are trying to keep the rest of your fingers on the home keys. I am all for trying new things and I will play some more games with this new setup tonight. I had a ton of game son the old setup and not once did my thumb feel stressed.
The feedback is meant to be constructive not insulting. I have really enjoyed the layout so far.
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On June 23 2012 04:25 scrub96 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 20:00 Antylamon wrote:On June 22 2012 19:06 scrub96 wrote:
played some games with this updated layout last night. I definitely prefer the old version. Going to ] and ' for build keys feels absolutely terrible vs the old / and . keys. Have some more camer keys close is nice but I really dont think this is an improvement over the old version. ... ... ... Do you have 7 fingers? The biggest issue with the original version of theCore was the movement of the thumb required to make a building. It was moved to a more comfortable position so that you could actually hit them without stressing your thumb. If it really feels more comfortable to use slash and period for buildings, then either you're doing it wrong or your hands are tiny or... I have no idea. Im quite sure I am doing it right. The new build keys are just uncomfortable to hit if you are trying to keep the rest of your fingers on the home keys. I am all for trying new things and I will play some more games with this new setup tonight. I had a ton of game son the old setup and not once did my thumb feel stressed. The feedback is meant to be constructive not insulting. I have really enjoyed the layout so far.
I didn't take it as an insult. I was trying to help you out, because I *really* like the new building hotkeys.
You're not supposed to go out of your way to keep your fingers on the home keys, though. The point of base jiop is to find the area with the most keys easily accessible, even excluding the home keys. Probly misinterpreted you there, though.
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THE ZERG SPECIFIC LAYOUTS ARE FINISHED!!!
So pumped. All you zergies out there, please test this out and gimme your feedback :D
@scrub96
I would strongly suggest playing with a more "loose" hand. You only need one finger on the keyboard as an anchor so that your hand can come back to home right after hitting a key. In most cases it will be your pinky (as in this case) or index. But ultimately, your thumb will "tell" the rest of your fingers where the home keys are :D
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I am both relieved and upset after reviewing your project. I also have a unique perspective but, before I start filling your eyes with useless photons I realize you are swamped and time is precious so I will tell you the important information first.
-Blizzard Arcade patch 1.5?? is changing functions such as patrol so that groups of units each get individual commands. Each command will be identical except in endpoint(for instance: now they have it so all units patrol to same point changing formation as they attempt to stay out of each others way). I don't know if they are doing the same for attack, and if not it would give users a reason to use patrol more often for better unit spreading in large battles. I wanted to give you a heads up if no one else has, so that you are ready if blizzard makes changes that could be affecting basic layouts of your project.(I am not positive about this change)
-I have played left handed for a long time using only 2.5 fingers for the keyboard(I'll explain), and am now switching hands while also switching to Core layout. This will give me a unique perspective on the learning process to Core as I will have all the prior experience and muscle memory habits while also being completely replaced with new ones while I learn Core layout. I am considering switching to Terran from zerg40%/protoss60% so that even race dynamics are unformulated. This way I can give realistic estimates of the time and effort without underplaying the difficulty whatsoever.
-As I said above, I have a unique perspective in more ways then one. I was forced into this do to an accident that damaged my right arm so that only 2 fingers and the thumb work, the pinkie cannot even move to press a key, and the ring finger cannot handle presses of more then 1-2 keys because it only has small amounts of downward thrust. there we have my 2.5 fingers(I know it doesn't make objective sens). My APM suffered despite having 2 quick fingers and a thumb. So I thought to myself, what should I do, fixing fingers was not an option so I had no choice but to use mouse in left and put keyboard in left witch has all the working fingers. Mouse is barely impacted by this aside from practicing, of course. I also would need to change the layout from my 2.5 custom(lol) to A more efficient layout the comes with the game, thats when I ended up here. I actually intended to do it myself and share the results, but you have already done more then I intended or hoped for and in far more depth and time then I would have dedicated. So all there is now, is to go through the learning process. And I am doing mine from scratch(if that makes any sens?) and will share with whoever(who cares!) how long it took or hard it was(something like that). I will also be sharing a helpful and cheap key marking method I have developed along with some setup tips that will increase comfort and APM without costing you little if any money. I am actually vary happy with how well this method of marking the keys turned out when applied; it did far better then I expected.
-I would like to create a video so they can be better explained and demonstrated - I may wait until Jaka has the full version of core completed so people can use it when they read it - it will help speed up the learning Core process and also save you from 'look-away type eye and head delays', as you will feel it with your fingers and be able to snipe every key on the layout. It will not harm, or block the lights on your keyboard, it can be removed and customized etc... I will post it freely and make it as an unofficial( ^.^ ) connection to the core layout, as I am sure it will spread and have a similar feel as core in that it is an increase to APM(no more lookdowns!)
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I think it would help to show each layout with visuals. This picture can be the template
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y5fch.png)
And a rough example would be something like this
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iP5ss.jpg)
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On June 23 2012 08:30 JaKaTaK wrote:
@scrub96
I would strongly suggest playing with a more "loose" hand. You only need one finger on the keyboard as an anchor so that your hand can come back to home right after hitting a key. In most cases it will be your pinky (as in this case) or index. But ultimately, your thumb will "tell" the rest of your fingers where the home keys are :D
Yes, and this is exactly why space is a great key! =)
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I got out my old collage drafting tools and decided to measure the angles for Core advanced layout. JIOP is turned clockwise 12º-18º depending on preference. WERG is turned the same way just with less like 11º-14º. This is because on my keyboard (CYBORG) my thumb does not line up with where they windows key was removed, nor can I hit the shift without sometimes bumping the ctrl when positioned above 14º. This may differ some depending on your hand, mine are rather large so that may be the limiting factor here, not sure. Anyone else have this happen who also has large hands?
The low numbers surprised me but then this depends on preference, wrist shape/angle. You may be able to get steeper angles but trust me(and this is why I've posted this, so you would know) don't bother trying really steap angles above 23º + as it will likely only slow you down...
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So far I'm loving the new Zerg layout. On paper everything looks good, but I've gone back to Level 1 so I can't really provide a whole lot of feedback except that it feels great not to have to reach to select larva :D
On June 23 2012 10:51 AcumanEgo wrote:
I got out my old collage drafting tools and decided to measure the angles for Core advanced layout. JIOP is turned clockwise 12º-18º depending on preference. WERG is turned the same way just with less like 11º-14º. This is because on my keyboard (CYBORG) my thumb does not line up with where they windows key was removed, nor can I hit the shift without sometimes bumping the ctrl when positioned above 14º. This may differ some depending on your hand, mine are rather large so that may be the limiting factor here, not sure. Anyone else have this happen who also has large hands?
The low numbers surprised me but then this depends on preference, wrist shape/angle. You may be able to get steeper angles but trust me(and this is why I've posted this, so you would know) don't bother trying really steap angles above 23º + as it will likely only slow you down...
I'll have to find my protractor later and see how far I tilt mine, but just eyeballing it it looks to be around 20º or so, but I've always been terrible at eyeballing angles.
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Question regarding using ALT to set the layered camer locations. In my last few games I found it frustrating that when I want to set a camer (say at the beginnig of a game) alt centers me on my current selection. No problem I think.. I'll just click the minimap.. but that doesnt work either because alt+click just pings the minimap.
The specefic scenario is when trying to set a layered camera key on the opponents base. You may not have anything selected there so alt will most likely take you to your base. From there your only option seems to be to mouse scroll to the opponents base. The simple solution is just to use one of the other available camera keys I suppose.
I am hoping I am just misunderstanding how this is supposed to work.
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On June 23 2012 08:30 JaKaTaK wrote:
THE ZERG SPECIFIC LAYOUTS ARE FINISHED!!!
So pumped. All you zergies out there, please test this out and gimme your feedback :D
@scrub96
I would strongly suggest playing with a more "loose" hand. You only need one finger on the keyboard as an anchor so that your hand can come back to home right after hitting a key. In most cases it will be your pinky (as in this case) or index. But ultimately, your thumb will "tell" the rest of your fingers where the home keys are :D
I have been messing around with the new zerg layout. I figured out most of the differences through the hotkeys menu but I'm not sure what control groups to use for hatcheries and queens, since P is a control group, but O isn't. Can you clarify this please, or post one of those helpful pictures you had for the random layouts?
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Click through the spoilers at the start of this page and watch the second video all the way through. It will show the fastest method of injecting. For WERG as example(then you need to translate what I am saying into whatever the layout you use): I pick WERG only because it is the same as the video... OK, you can put all queens on one hot-key and hatcheries on another. So, 7 for queens and 6 for hatcheries, but only use these two hot-keys for selection/defending air or hellions, whatever; then you use the camera keys do actually do the injects. Set location keys to up to 5 hatcheries(its all you need) then hold down ctrl and shift and click each location key and simple click each one without even moving the mouse(you will still need mouse, but it is best to simply click mouse buttons while injection to save time). I realize I am not great at explaining this nor is it easy to do so. I strongly recommend that you watch the videos at the start in order to actually see this explanation performed.
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On June 23 2012 21:14 barrykp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 08:30 JaKaTaK wrote:
THE ZERG SPECIFIC LAYOUTS ARE FINISHED!!!
So pumped. All you zergies out there, please test this out and gimme your feedback :D
@scrub96
I would strongly suggest playing with a more "loose" hand. You only need one finger on the keyboard as an anchor so that your hand can come back to home right after hitting a key. In most cases it will be your pinky (as in this case) or index. But ultimately, your thumb will "tell" the rest of your fingers where the home keys are :D I have been messing around with the new zerg layout. I figured out most of the differences through the hotkeys menu but I'm not sure what control groups to use for hatcheries and queens, since P is a control group, but O isn't. Can you clarify this please, or post one of those helpful pictures you had for the random layouts?
P Hatches
O Select Larva
The Key 1 Right from O = Queens
i think thats OpenBracket on a US Layout
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On June 23 2012 23:52 maLaK1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 21:14 barrykp wrote:On June 23 2012 08:30 JaKaTaK wrote:
THE ZERG SPECIFIC LAYOUTS ARE FINISHED!!!
So pumped. All you zergies out there, please test this out and gimme your feedback :D
@scrub96
I would strongly suggest playing with a more "loose" hand. You only need one finger on the keyboard as an anchor so that your hand can come back to home right after hitting a key. In most cases it will be your pinky (as in this case) or index. But ultimately, your thumb will "tell" the rest of your fingers where the home keys are :D I have been messing around with the new zerg layout. I figured out most of the differences through the hotkeys menu but I'm not sure what control groups to use for hatcheries and queens, since P is a control group, but O isn't. Can you clarify this please, or post one of those helpful pictures you had for the random layouts? P Hatches O Select Larva The Key 1 Right from O = Queens i think thats OpenBracket on a US Layout
On my keyboard the key 1 right from O is P. Or do you mean 0?
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On June 24 2012 00:00 barrykp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 23:52 maLaK1 wrote:On June 23 2012 21:14 barrykp wrote:On June 23 2012 08:30 JaKaTaK wrote:
THE ZERG SPECIFIC LAYOUTS ARE FINISHED!!!
So pumped. All you zergies out there, please test this out and gimme your feedback :D
@scrub96
I would strongly suggest playing with a more "loose" hand. You only need one finger on the keyboard as an anchor so that your hand can come back to home right after hitting a key. In most cases it will be your pinky (as in this case) or index. But ultimately, your thumb will "tell" the rest of your fingers where the home keys are :D I have been messing around with the new zerg layout. I figured out most of the differences through the hotkeys menu but I'm not sure what control groups to use for hatcheries and queens, since P is a control group, but O isn't. Can you clarify this please, or post one of those helpful pictures you had for the random layouts? P Hatches O Select Larva The Key 1 Right from O = Queens i think thats OpenBracket on a US Layout On my keyboard the key 1 right from O is P. Or do you mean 0?
oh my mistake I meant 1 right from P
on german layout its Ü
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On June 24 2012 00:31 maLaK1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 00:00 barrykp wrote:On June 23 2012 23:52 maLaK1 wrote:On June 23 2012 21:14 barrykp wrote:On June 23 2012 08:30 JaKaTaK wrote:
THE ZERG SPECIFIC LAYOUTS ARE FINISHED!!!
So pumped. All you zergies out there, please test this out and gimme your feedback :D
@scrub96
I would strongly suggest playing with a more "loose" hand. You only need one finger on the keyboard as an anchor so that your hand can come back to home right after hitting a key. In most cases it will be your pinky (as in this case) or index. But ultimately, your thumb will "tell" the rest of your fingers where the home keys are :D I have been messing around with the new zerg layout. I figured out most of the differences through the hotkeys menu but I'm not sure what control groups to use for hatcheries and queens, since P is a control group, but O isn't. Can you clarify this please, or post one of those helpful pictures you had for the random layouts? P Hatches O Select Larva The Key 1 Right from O = Queens i think thats OpenBracket on a US Layout On my keyboard the key 1 right from O is P. Or do you mean 0? oh my mistake I meant 1 right from P on german layout its Ü
Ok great; thank you for your help. If anyone else was wondering about this it's the '[' key.
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@scrub96
Hey hey man, in TheCore there are 5 dedicated base keys that are only used for your bases, and 3 free cams that are used for whatever you want. Having base cameras allows you to respond super quick to drop and air harass as well as making worker transfers super fast and easy. If 3 free cameras are not enough, and you do not want to have your base cameras the same for every game, then unbind alt as "center on current selection" :D
EDIT: I'm streaming as we do the protoss specific layout today, come hang out :D
http://www.twitch.tv/thejakatak
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EPT
