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On June 18 2012 07:21 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 06:47 uoeahtns wrote:
One thing I noticed was how many times, according to the data analyzed while creating this setup, the select larvae key was selected. (463.289 times!) It seems like an injustice to place select larvae and then the drone key, the most built unit by the zerg, on the ring and pinky fingers. On darkgrid, I could place select larvae on f and then the 9 units on the 3x3 grid of letters ot the left. This allowed me to create every single unit with very much ease. However, on this setup, I find myself awkwardly scrambling around with my ring and pinky finger to create almost all of the units. The point is to make o and p, the macro control group keys, to be pressed more easily. Show nested quote +One thing that I think is important is to add up how many times a certain key is pressed, and not simply the functions. While ability 1 might be pressed (for units alone) 95,153; 45,353; and 39,883 times, but If you add up how many times the first ability is pressed for each unit and building, the number would be a lot higher than however many times most control groups are pressed. Just because something is pressed more often, does that mean it wouldn't be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position? Besides, this entire hotkey setup is mainly based around the frequency of occurences as a base. Everything else is secondary. Show nested quote +Now, the most pressed control group was pressed 544,972 times. Seeing as how the most used ability was pressed more than the most used control group, I do not feel comfortable placing the first two control groups on the two easiest-to-press keys if the goal is the most efficient keyboard layout. Again, just because something is pressed more often, does that mean it wouldn't be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position?
First of all, my first point was not that o and p was bad placement for macro keys; it was that it was awkward to create units as zerg.
Aside from that, I don't understand your reasoning behind the statement that the fact that something is pressed more often does not necessarily mean that it will not be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position. The basis behind my reasoning is that it is pressed more often, so it should be placed on a more comfortable key. As you said, the hotkey setup is mainly based around the frequency of occurrences.
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Deleted: Pressed quote instead of edit
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On June 18 2012 07:28 uoeahtns wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:21 Antylamon wrote:On June 18 2012 06:47 uoeahtns wrote:
One thing I noticed was how many times, according to the data analyzed while creating this setup, the select larvae key was selected. (463.289 times!) It seems like an injustice to place select larvae and then the drone key, the most built unit by the zerg, on the ring and pinky fingers. On darkgrid, I could place select larvae on f and then the 9 units on the 3x3 grid of letters ot the left. This allowed me to create every single unit with very much ease. However, on this setup, I find myself awkwardly scrambling around with my ring and pinky finger to create almost all of the units. The point is to make o and p, the macro control group keys, to be pressed more easily. One thing that I think is important is to add up how many times a certain key is pressed, and not simply the functions. While ability 1 might be pressed (for units alone) 95,153; 45,353; and 39,883 times, but If you add up how many times the first ability is pressed for each unit and building, the number would be a lot higher than however many times most control groups are pressed. Just because something is pressed more often, does that mean it wouldn't be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position? Besides, this entire hotkey setup is mainly based around the frequency of occurences as a base. Everything else is secondary. Now, the most pressed control group was pressed 544,972 times. Seeing as how the most used ability was pressed more than the most used control group, I do not feel comfortable placing the first two control groups on the two easiest-to-press keys if the goal is the most efficient keyboard layout. Again, just because something is pressed more often, does that mean it wouldn't be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position? First of all, my first point was not that o and p was bad placement for macro keys; it was that it was awkward to create units as zerg. Aside from that, I don't understand your reasoning behind the statement that the fact that something is pressed more often does not necessarily mean that it will not be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position. The basis behind my reasoning is that it is pressed more often, so it should be placed on a more comfortable key. As you said, the hotkey setup is mainly based around the frequency of occurrences.
My brain was overloading from listening to Dreamhack in the background 
After thinking it through it was a bit stupid to say that. I kind of went into circular logic trying to back it up.
Anyways, this is the random setup you're looking at, not the Zerg-exclusive setup. Random sacrifices a little efficiency to make the setups for each race more similar so that you don't mess up from a race change. At least I think so... Jak can prove me wrong if I'm wrong.
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On June 18 2012 07:47 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:28 uoeahtns wrote:On June 18 2012 07:21 Antylamon wrote:On June 18 2012 06:47 uoeahtns wrote:
One thing I noticed was how many times, according to the data analyzed while creating this setup, the select larvae key was selected. (463.289 times!) It seems like an injustice to place select larvae and then the drone key, the most built unit by the zerg, on the ring and pinky fingers. On darkgrid, I could place select larvae on f and then the 9 units on the 3x3 grid of letters ot the left. This allowed me to create every single unit with very much ease. However, on this setup, I find myself awkwardly scrambling around with my ring and pinky finger to create almost all of the units. The point is to make o and p, the macro control group keys, to be pressed more easily. One thing that I think is important is to add up how many times a certain key is pressed, and not simply the functions. While ability 1 might be pressed (for units alone) 95,153; 45,353; and 39,883 times, but If you add up how many times the first ability is pressed for each unit and building, the number would be a lot higher than however many times most control groups are pressed. Just because something is pressed more often, does that mean it wouldn't be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position? Besides, this entire hotkey setup is mainly based around the frequency of occurences as a base. Everything else is secondary. Now, the most pressed control group was pressed 544,972 times. Seeing as how the most used ability was pressed more than the most used control group, I do not feel comfortable placing the first two control groups on the two easiest-to-press keys if the goal is the most efficient keyboard layout. Again, just because something is pressed more often, does that mean it wouldn't be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position? First of all, my first point was not that o and p was bad placement for macro keys; it was that it was awkward to create units as zerg. Aside from that, I don't understand your reasoning behind the statement that the fact that something is pressed more often does not necessarily mean that it will not be pressed more often if it was in a more comfortable position. The basis behind my reasoning is that it is pressed more often, so it should be placed on a more comfortable key. As you said, the hotkey setup is mainly based around the frequency of occurrences. My brain was overloading from listening to Dreamhack in the background After thinking it through it was a bit stupid to say that. I kind of went into circular logic trying to back it up. Anyways, this is the random setup you're looking at, not the Zerg-exclusive setup. Random sacrifices a little efficiency to make the setups for each race more similar so that you don't mess up from a race change. At least I think so... Jak can prove me wrong if I'm wrong.
Interesting point, now for terran and protoss:
Terran Ability 1: 386,554
Exceptions: Ability 1 instead of attack, return cargo instead of build basic, "building abilities" group not included, raise and lower depot both included
Terran CG 1: 629,377
Protoss Ability 1: 268,849
Exceptions: Ability 1 instead of attack, return cargo instead of build basic
Protoss CG 1:648,439
Zerg is much more ability-oriented than either terran or protoss, as is pretty clear I guess. That would require a much bigger change for zerg when it comes to the individual layouts. Now I can understand why darkgrid felt so much better with zerg and why theCore felt so much better with terran and protoss.
Note: I got my own numbers, as I did not understand the system Jak and Foxy used to get their numbers. (Ability 2 was higher than ability 1 for some reason) I simply used the most used command for each "group" aside from the exceptions mentioned.
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I was thinking along the same lines as Uoeahtns, and remapped a bit accordingly. I now have a setup I'm currently VERY satisfied with.
L, ; and [ is no longer control groups, but ability keys. ; is build basic structures, and [ is for advanced (plus other stuff ofc.)
The control groups were set to respectively backspace and \, which gives me 9 control groups in total, and if if I ever need a 10th (which I doubt I will) I can just use enter.
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D
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At the moment I'm working on a german setup including a Razer Naga (which has 17 mouse buttons, mind you).
The idea revolves about the fact that you don't have to move away from JIOP when controlling units, because all abilities are on the mouse, IOP are the three main army control groups and J being the control group for hatches. I have bound "-" to attack for convenience because the thumb is resting there anyways. I found using I and J for abilities and thus moving your ring finger is too much movement during a battle.
Will probably upload that for Naga users, dunno if anyone's interested.
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On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines as Uoeahtns, and remapped a bit accordingly. I now have a setup I'm currently VERY satisfied with.
L, ; and [ is no longer control groups, but ability keys. ; is build basic structures, and [ is for advanced (plus other stuff ofc.)
The control groups were set to respectively backspace and \, which gives me 9 control groups in total, and if if I ever need a 10th (which I doubt I will) I can just use enter.
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D
I'm a huge fan of this change. For protoss especially I feel that having to move the thumb away from shift made shift queing buildings too much of a hassle. I'll be using that change from now on for sure, thanks!
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i use naga, sounds interesting indeed, but im wondering if there are issues with the side keys possibly being harder to hit than the keyboard keys with some mouse grips? i am asking because when i brought up to my starcast forum buddies the possibility of getting a naga they said that using the side buttons is really awkward, idk
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On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D
The main problem I see here is that removing Shift from camera recall makes layered injects impossible, which is one of the main strengths of this kind of custom hotkey map. 
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On June 18 2012 09:40 ScoSteSal wrote:
i use naga, sounds interesting indeed, but im wondering if there are issues with the side keys possibly being harder to hit than the keyboard keys with some mouse grips? i am asking because when i brought up to my starcast forum buddies the possibility of getting a naga they said that using the side buttons is really awkward, idk
Personal preferrernce and just getting used to. I'm using only the very easy to press / reach buttons on the naga for the important stuff. The rest is units and buildings you don't use that often (spawning pool, Hydras, Ultras, ...)
Just updated my setting so that I really don't have to move my hands like... ever almost. Pretty sick stuff, but zerg related ofc. As I said, when I'm finally done I'll upload it somewhere and let you know.
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On June 18 2012 09:55 Doomaflatchi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D The main problem I see here is that removing Shift from camera recall makes layered injects impossible, which is one of the main strengths of this kind of custom hotkey map.
I can't really understand why. Just set inject larvae to [ (or any key that's not also used for locations). Works perfectly fine when I do it.
Hold ctrl, press I for main base, inject, press O for natural, inject and so on. You can inject while holding ctrl.
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one problem i can see with making recalling layered cams cntrl + cam hotkey is that it doesn't really help anything. When I put my hand on the keyboard with it slanted so my thumb rests easily on shift, its easier to press cntrl and shift together than cntrl alone
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On June 18 2012 13:01 ScoSteSal wrote:
one problem i can see with making recalling layered cams cntrl + cam hotkey is that it doesn't really help anything. When I put my hand on the keyboard with it slanted so my thumb rests easily on shift, its easier to press cntrl and shift together than cntrl alone
Well, perhaps you have larger hands than me. I know I found ctrl + shift highly unpractical and kept messing up my control groups.
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On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines as Uoeahtns, and remapped a bit accordingly. I now have a setup I'm currently VERY satisfied with.
L, ; and [ is no longer control groups, but ability keys. ; is build basic structures, and [ is for advanced (plus other stuff ofc.)
The control groups were set to respectively backspace and \, which gives me 9 control groups in total, and if if I ever need a 10th (which I doubt I will) I can just use enter.
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D
The only problem I see with this is that backspace is ridiculously out of the way. The KOP[ base keys which will be released in the full version will be much better suited for this change.
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On June 18 2012 20:13 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines as Uoeahtns, and remapped a bit accordingly. I now have a setup I'm currently VERY satisfied with.
L, ; and [ is no longer control groups, but ability keys. ; is build basic structures, and [ is for advanced (plus other stuff ofc.)
The control groups were set to respectively backspace and \, which gives me 9 control groups in total, and if if I ever need a 10th (which I doubt I will) I can just use enter.
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D The only problem I see with this is that backspace is ridiculously out of the way. The KOP[ base keys which will be released in the full version will be much better suited for this change.
You're missing the point. With KOP[ you'd still have the same setup, just moved one key to the right. The point is to have more comfortable ability keys and still have access to control groups. Backspace is easier to reach than 6 on the standard layout, and like I said I doubt I'll ever actually have any use for them anyway. Not that it should really matter, but when have you actually seen any pro use 8 control groups for their units?
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On June 18 2012 20:34 Tzuborg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 20:13 Antylamon wrote:On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines as Uoeahtns, and remapped a bit accordingly. I now have a setup I'm currently VERY satisfied with.
L, ; and [ is no longer control groups, but ability keys. ; is build basic structures, and [ is for advanced (plus other stuff ofc.)
The control groups were set to respectively backspace and \, which gives me 9 control groups in total, and if if I ever need a 10th (which I doubt I will) I can just use enter.
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D The only problem I see with this is that backspace is ridiculously out of the way. The KOP[ base keys which will be released in the full version will be much better suited for this change. You're missing the point. With KOP[ you'd still have the same setup, just moved one key to the right. The point is to have more comfortable ability keys and still have access to control groups. Backspace is easier to reach than 6 on the standard layout, and like I said I doubt I'll ever actually have any use for them anyway. Not that it should really matter, but when have you actually seen any pro use 8 control groups for their units?
I'm not missing the point. It's a brilliant idea.
I'm just pointing out that there is a con to it, albeit a small one.
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On June 18 2012 21:26 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 20:34 Tzuborg wrote:On June 18 2012 20:13 Antylamon wrote:On June 18 2012 09:13 Tzuborg wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines as Uoeahtns, and remapped a bit accordingly. I now have a setup I'm currently VERY satisfied with.
L, ; and [ is no longer control groups, but ability keys. ; is build basic structures, and [ is for advanced (plus other stuff ofc.)
The control groups were set to respectively backspace and \, which gives me 9 control groups in total, and if if I ever need a 10th (which I doubt I will) I can just use enter.
This removed those very awkward build commands which in my opinion were the weakness of theCore. Thumb can now rest on shift and ctrl without being bothered too much.
Only having to use ctrl + key for locations is also amazing.
My APM has never been nowhere near this high =D The only problem I see with this is that backspace is ridiculously out of the way. The KOP[ base keys which will be released in the full version will be much better suited for this change. You're missing the point. With KOP[ you'd still have the same setup, just moved one key to the right. The point is to have more comfortable ability keys and still have access to control groups. Backspace is easier to reach than 6 on the standard layout, and like I said I doubt I'll ever actually have any use for them anyway. Not that it should really matter, but when have you actually seen any pro use 8 control groups for their units? I'm not missing the point. It's a brilliant idea. I'm just pointing out that there is a con to it, albeit a small one.
Well, yes, but using KOP[ wouldn't help anything. Following the same principle ' and ] would then be the new build commands, control groups 6 and 7 would be backspace and \, and you wouldn't have the 8th and 9th.
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I love the idea of thumb-on-shift/ctrl! I'm amazed by all of this data analysis and effort!
Now I think you're ready to improve with a focus on intuitiveness, and I have some ideas. Jak, please take a moment to read. This is based on the layout in the pictures and datasheet.
- Attack, attack upgrades (infantry weapons), offensive units, etc should probably just go on 1 hotkey.
Currently many of these are on I or J; I say choose one button (f.e. I). In exceptional cases like armory use attack hotkey ( I ) for standard upgrade and additional hotkey (f.e. K )
For the record currently the armory uses I and J for attack and secondary attack, while E-bay uses I and J for weapons and armor.
Same for defensive commands. Choose a button, apply that button to Hold, Infantry Armor, etc. etc. Don't forget details like Build Photon Cannon.
Same for spellcasters/energy-upgrades. Most buildings make only one spellcaster or energy upgrade.
- Currently you are using 10+10+3+1 = 24 buttons (+ Shift + Control).
Whichever button you assign where should of course be optimized as much as possible, so try mapping them in the following two ways:
1. Which buttons are on the same finger - I get the following:
pinky YGHBNJM ring 78UIK, middle 9OL index 0 - =P [ ] ; '
I would use G and 8 in favor of . and /
2. Which commands/groups are likely to be used at the same time (split between fingers)
You already mapped how often commands are used, just estimate how often they are used together and split 'friends' up systematically
Good luck, I hope it helps.
TL;DR - The Core seems good but it can get more consistent.
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@Tzuborg
Changing set control group to Ctrl+Shift and recall cam to Ctrl creates issues in control groups and doesn't allow the layered inject camera method. We might take a look at this again when checking out the race specific layouts.
@Tue
I will do everything I can (within a code of ethics) to get my hands on a beta key. There will be updates for HotS as soon as I can get it (already have 3 copies preordered )
@Frolossus
Greetings, good to have another fellow lefty on board 
WERG shift are the home keys for leftys. I ladder with TheCore RLM and have a cam on my hands pretty regularly on TheJaKaTaK There are definitely VODs there that have the camera on my hands. Enjoy :D
@uoeahtns/antylamon
The numbers there are incorrect. Unfortuantely, just setting the most used command to the fastest key have some conflicts (morph archon is not as time sensitive as feedback and psi-storm) so we used that as a template and made some alterations. The beta has changed many things now and I am working on updating the spreadsheet, right now a big section is under construction and we're looking at some big changes for TheCore 0.2
@Mahtasooma
Sounds cool man! I'll definitely put it in the OP for all the Naga users out there :D
@Tzuborg
I can't really understand why. Just set inject larvae to [ (or any key that's not also used for locations). Works perfectly fine when I do it.
The issue is that you have to repress the inject button for every inject, whereas if you can set recall cam to ctrl+shift you don't have to. This allows a much faster inject as you can keep your hand on the homekeys for all but 1 of the camera recalls (in your example you have to take your hand off the home keys 2 times as well as 1 extra button press for every base beyond the 1st)
Concerning the difficulty of pressing ctrl+shift, make sure your keyboard is tilted enough. Can you provide a video of what it looks like for you pressing ctrl+shift to recall vs ctrl to recall, I don't see where the difficulty is coming in.
As far as messing up your control groups. If you set all your base cameras to your main at the beginning of the game, you should not have any issues messing up your control groups because of the ctrl+shift combo.
This layout will not sacrifice any of the 10 control groups. The other issue with this proposed change is that you will run into various repetitive finger use, which is a huge speed sacrifice. The pinky is much stronger than you might think it is, training pinky dexterity will greatly improve your play.
@King of Town
I agree with the point of consistency for random players. We will make changes for consistency when we release the race specific versions.
I am working out new changes that should be out tomorrow (crosses fingers for a good healthy day of work) that will solve many of these issues. As always, thank you for your patience and criticism :D
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On June 19 2012 08:23 JaKaTaK wrote:
@King of Town
I agree with the point of consistency for random players. We will make changes for consistency when we release the race specific versions.
I am working out new changes that should be out tomorrow (crosses fingers for a good healthy day of work) that will solve many of these issues. As always, thank you for your patience and criticism :D
I'm not talking about random though, within 1 race you can also make commands more intuitive.
I'll check your new setup when I get the chance, and see if I can illustrate my point.
Keep it up!!
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EPT
