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@treekiller:
about the side of the keyboard thing, what key on the keyboard do you think is probably THE most used/most important key overall? well, these guys have done statistical analysis on a ton of replays (look at OP for detail) and found that FAR AND AWAY the most important/used key is shift. Now, when the hand rests on the left side of the keyboard, the weakest finger (pinky) has to contort itself and the whole hand to reach the shift key, significantly increasing stress on the hands and reducing speed. However, when the thumb (the "strongest" finger) is resting right on shift (as in this layout) it is almost effortless to issue shift commands (the one case where that isn't completely true but even then sortof is is queueing buildings, being worked on) and one's speed is dramatically increased. You might want to consider trying a bit harder to find explanations other than the simple "oh, they are idiots/trollls/w/e" for things you can't understand when you have reason to believe that the creators of the things you can't understand aren't pants-on-head retarded.
This part of the response assumes that you meant that the "infrequently used but very important to be able to hit quickly" keys are harder to hit on theCore than other layouts:
............all the keys are moved closer together and arranged so that commands can be given with minimal finger movement/strain (thus increasing both physical play speed and endurance) and to my knowledge there aren't any keys with any use period that are neglected. However, your point about the urgency of a command hotkey affecting its "importance" is a good one, and it may well be profitable for these guys to incorporate it into their algorithms (hey, Jaky, think Voltaire might be able to figure that out?)
if you meant something else, I would love to understand what you actually meant
@Death_Gun
with your thumb, it sounds like you aren't tilting the keyboard enough that the thumb naturally rests on cntrl and shift (i think Jakatak goes over that issue specifically in detail in the 1st video in the OP)
yes, you have to do some reaching with the pinky in this layout, and that is unfortunate, but the thing is that such pinky-stretching happens in every layout and is even worse in any layout that has your hand on the other side because your pinky has to reach over to shift every time you queue any commands
@figq
yes, many do that, but that system is, compared to the hatch/queen/inject system this layout uses, far more wasteful of control groups (that could be used for more complex army control et al) and takes more time to inject because:
That inject method movement breakdown
1 press nth hatch cg
2 press nth hatch cg (this moves camera to that hatch instead of just selecting it)
3 move mouse to queen and select her
4 press inject hotkey
5 move mouse/targeting reticule to hatch in center of screen and click
repeat for number of hatches you have
layered cam inject method movement breakdown
1 press queens cg
2 press and release inject hotkey
3 press and hold down cntrl/shift while moving mouse to center of screen (approx)
4 roll fingers over layered camera keys while clicking furiously
5 release cntrl/shift (and optionally press the stop or hold position hotkey to keep the queens from running around)
as you can see, the layered cam inject method stays about same speed throughout game up to 5-6 injecting hatches (which some people say is all you ever need) whereas the method you are referring to takes n*base speed (n being number of injecting hatches) and the layered cam method has the same or fewer actions per inject cycle. Also, the layered cam method doesn't really get messed up by mouse innacuracy of any kind because the mouse doesn't move much and doesn't have to be placed particularly accurately even when it does move in the layered cam method whereas the method you are referring to is utterly dependent on you perfectly doing a significant amount of accuracy-needing mouse movements for every inject (which also slow it down btw)
Also, the only benefit I am aware of with the indiv hatch cg method you speak of is being able to manage each base separately (injects aren't thrown off by one queen disappearing as they are with the backspace method & production from disparate bases can be managed more carefully etc.) and this layered cam method enables the same level of accuracy because each hatch gets its own camera hotkey.
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On June 15 2012 08:57 JaKaTaK wrote:
@ScoSteSal exclamation point is not supposed to be bound to anything for RRM... It may have something to do with the kind of keyboard you are using.
I am getting the feeling Jakatak might want to put a note about keyboards in the FAQ; maybe something about how a standard American keyboard looks?!?
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Using the right handed (use right hand for mouse) no 4th or 5th buttons version, just wondering why the stimpack is on S !!!!!!? lol did i get a corrupted version or something?
EDIT: I re-downloaded and re installed it, but got the same results, stim was still on S, i changed it back to I but that change affected other hotkeys such as siege position for tanks, upgrades from the ebay.
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On June 15 2012 19:16 Ozonne wrote:
Using the right handed (use right hand for mouse) no 4th or 5th buttons version, just wondering why the stimpack is on S !!!!!!? lol did i get a corrupted version or something?
Stim is definitely on I in my version.
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I'm gonna try to sum up my experience with TheCore so far:
Note that I've almost exclusively played Terran.
Shift key with thumb is magnificent. Adding units to the army control group is so smooth now.
I've concluded that tabbed production is far superior to the alternative. I haven't really read any data, but my production at least feels way faster than before, and I believe it is. Especially from my starports and factories, which I had a tendency to forget to check frequently before. The rally point "issue" is actually more of a benefit than a problem.
Advanced buildings key feels a bit weird (however I think it's worse on my keyboard than others), but that'll probably feel better with more practice.
In general I'm still not hitting very fast or accurate with my little finger, but I believe that too will come with more practice.
I've just started using location keys so I haven't really made my mind up about them (as mentioned I swapped set and recall). I really hope they will feel easy and natural once I've gotten more practice with them, as those were the main reason I wasn't satisfied with my old setup.
I'm playing with the thought of removing 1-3 control groups, as I'm not sure I will ever need 10 now that I use tabbed production. It could free up space for e.g. more single click location keys.
On June 15 2012 19:16 Ozonne wrote:
Using the right handed (use right hand for mouse) no 4th or 5th buttons version, just wondering why the stimpack is on S !!!!!!? lol did i get a corrupted version or something?
EDIT: I re-downloaded and re installed it, but got the same results, stim was still on S, i changed it back to I but that change affected other hotkeys such as siege position for tanks, upgrades from the ebay.
Same thing happened to me, but with different keys. I changed one key, and it somehow unbound other keys with no relevance to that key. It seems like bugs occasionally occur when using a layout configured on a different computer, and changing one key unbinds the other bugged ones.
Just manually remap those keys back to I, and it should be alright.
EDIT: Wow, only just now watched the intro video and realized I've been tilting the wrong way. Maybe shift + ctrl is better for recalling locations after all..
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I think if you want to make the most efficient and best hokey layout you'd have to take into consideration placing your most used/important keys closest to your index and middle finger as well. If you have an important key (can't think of one for the Core right now as I'm at work and I can't open up two pages to compare) next to your pinkey, you cold have significantly slower reaction time
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@treekiller,
It is very rude to start off your post by not only insulting Foxy and I, but everyone who has been born with a mental disability, but who gives a fuck about them, right? EDIT: for those of you who don't understand sarcasm, I am making the point that often times people think it doesn't effect the lives of people who are born with a mental disability to use the word "retarded" in a derogatory way. I disagree with this and am using sarcasm to make a point, I care very much about people who are being marginalized and taken advantage of. That being said, you make a good point of placing keys by importance. We did make some modifications based on key combinations as well as importance and time sensitivity. Which things do you think we missed (liftoff/land are on a very close key, pressed with the thumb)?
@figq
Many pros hotkey 3 hatcheries individually and then have a separate control group for all hatcheries. They do not have every single hatchery on its own control group. We think that our inject method is superior, and that is why we suggest you use it, however, you do not need to change any of the keys in the layout to use a control group for something else. You could use PO; for your 3 individual hatcheries, or for queens. Up to you :D A control group is a control group is a control group.
@Pheint
The issue is, in order to avoid using the same finger twice in a row (which is almost always slower than using two different fingers) we used a 2+2 split, where two fingers pressed ability commands and 2 fingers pressed control groups. But for some reason, we never thought of a 1+1+1+1 split. This is insanely interesting to me. To clarify, the setup we have now is index and middle do control groups, pinky and ring do abilities, but I suppose it is possible to try something where index and ring do control groups and pinky and middle do abilities. I use the word insanely very literally here, because that would mean redesigning the entire layout. I'll definitely be talking to Foxy about this if I find no issues inherent with it.
EDIT: Concerning issues with files: This is most likely because you are not using an american QWERTY keyboard, or is a bug with the Sc2 hotkey system. If there is a way we can stop this from happening, we will, but for now, use the Data Document and a picture of a QWERTY keyboard to assign any messed up keys manually. We appreciate your patience.
Thanks everyone who is testing and helping develop this layout. Your constructive feedback has been super helpful. We're very happy with the progress we've made so far, and look forward to MOAR IMPROVEMENTS! :D
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On June 15 2012 13:36 ScoSteSal wrote:
Now, when the hand rests on the left side of the keyboard, the weakest finger (pinky) has to contort itself and the whole hand to reach the shift key
you couldn't be more wrong,
most people that play on the left side of the keyboard have the pinky resting on shift,
how is that harder than using your thumb?
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On June 16 2012 02:03 maLaK1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 13:36 ScoSteSal wrote:
Now, when the hand rests on the left side of the keyboard, the weakest finger (pinky) has to contort itself and the whole hand to reach the shift key you couldn't be more wrong, most people that play on the left side of the keyboard have the pinky resting on shift, how is that harder than using your thumb?
Because your thumb is stronger than your pinky. Good point made on the resting position though, many people don't know that.
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On June 15 2012 13:21 Death_Gun wrote:
The thumb gets really sore pressing the Ctrl and mainly the Shift keys. I have to raise my thumb quite a bit in order to reach the Shift key, its really not natural to me, anatomically speaking, and even after that Im not able to hit the keys from the above, my thumb hits them on their corners, making it sore (the side of the thumb, next to the nail, is what is pressiong the edge of the keys). Its definitively not practical nor comfortable.
My other concern is with the pinkie, its my less agile finger and it have to press A LOT of the keys in this layout. Its gets worse when the key is below the J, I cant do that move with the pinkie without involuntary moving the ring finger aswell.
here we have it again
thats the main mistake of this layout, basing it on a bunch of numbers when most people agree that using the thumb for many of the most important actions doesnt feel natural and easy at all,
its not even a thing of not being used to it, its just not natural and feels weird
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On June 16 2012 02:05 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:03 maLaK1 wrote:On June 15 2012 13:36 ScoSteSal wrote:
Now, when the hand rests on the left side of the keyboard, the weakest finger (pinky) has to contort itself and the whole hand to reach the shift key you couldn't be more wrong, most people that play on the left side of the keyboard have the pinky resting on shift, how is that harder than using your thumb? Because your thumb is stronger than your pinky. Good point made on the resting position though, many people don't know that.
doesnt matter if your thumb is stronger when you have less controll because it points to the side
you cant seriously tell me that hitting the two building keys with your thumb is faster and more comfortable than using for example E R F or any other key using your index or middle finger
your pinky on the left side is used for two keys commonly, ctrl and shift, and its strong enough to do that, and its easy enough to reach down from shift to ctrl and back
on the other hand using the right side of the keyboard
going with your thumb from
- and . (the two build keys) and shift
PLUS pressing shift and ctrl at the same time is a lot harder and slower than the former
you can say what you want, just ask what people find more comfortable, make a poll
casting fungal and making buildings with for example E? or using your thumb for that PLUS controll,
im pretty sure what the outcome of that poll will be
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On June 16 2012 02:05 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:03 maLaK1 wrote:On June 15 2012 13:36 ScoSteSal wrote:
Now, when the hand rests on the left side of the keyboard, the weakest finger (pinky) has to contort itself and the whole hand to reach the shift key you couldn't be more wrong, most people that play on the left side of the keyboard have the pinky resting on shift, how is that harder than using your thumb? Because your thumb is stronger than your pinky. Good point made on the resting position though, many people don't know that.
also I can make you a layout using the left side, with easier accessible camera keys (setting and recall)
using the pinky ,resting on shift/controll,
the only thing that this layout has an advantage over that would be the number of controll groups that are easily accessible,
but i dont believe thats an issue when even most pros only use two groups at one time
but even with all the disadvantages i actually think the layout is an improvement over most other layouts
the question is
1 if its worth the work it takes to get comfortable using the thumb for the most important actions
2 if it isnt possible to get a layout as good as this one using the more commonly used left side
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@maLaK1
I think you are missing the point here. We are not attempting to make a good layout for people for now. We are attempting to make the best possible layout we can that will stay relevant for as far ahead in the future as possible. I watched flash take his hand off of his mouse to press keys on the "far side" of the keyboard during the kespa invitational. Does that mean its the best way? Or is it more likely that he does that as a habit because there were not customizable hotkeys in broodwar? I would argue the latter.
As far as your examples are concerned, I am not sure what kind of keyboard layout you are using, for me, / and . are on opposite sides of the keyboard from E R and F.
Concerning the a comfort poll, I think you are missing the point here as well. Comfort is largely dependent on what a person is used to. I can almost guarantee that anyone trying any new layout for the first time is going to feel uncomfortable. Asking people what they feel is comfortable would accomplish nothing. The results would come in saying that standard is the most comfortable layout.
Concerning the thumb. You need very little "control" to press the 5 different buttons assigned to the thumb in this layout. No keys need to be reached over, no distances memorized with muscle memory, all 5 keys are close to the thumb and have 5 very distinct feelings once a player is used to them. In our opinion, the strength of the thumb outweighs the possible weakness of little "control" which I will give you, but disagree with.
I can seriously tell you that more important keys than the build keys have been put on the index and middle fingers, and because the thumb works better in combination with other keys than the index or middle finger, and the build keys are always a 2 button combination, the thumb is a great place to put the build keys.
I appreciate your opinion, but very strongly disagree with the evidence you have given. I am not upset in anyway Any of my posts are best read with a calm steady voice.
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Jak 1 malak0
In all seriousness, if you don't like the layout then you don't have to use it.
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On June 16 2012 02:42 wc4482 wrote:
Jak 1 malak0
In all seriousness, if you don't like the layout then you don't have to use it.
What does it mean if you have the picture of a lock on the side of your name? like instead of a zealot or something...
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TBH I agree with Malak in MANY points...
Also, I like to alt-tab quite often in the very early game... Of course it will be impossible to do it with my hand on the right side of the KB....
Finally, I still think darkgrid is superior: even though you have statistics of stuff and etc, the PINKY does rest in shift spot, and hell, having the thumb hit keys besides space is SO unorthodox!
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I finally got around to testing this layout out, and I love it. It's going to take some time to really get everything rewired, but it's definitely going to be worth it.
Once big change that I made was to eliminate the ability keys from the thumb. I know and reassign these hotkeys to the pinky and ring finger. My hypothesis is that this might increase the usability of the layout by simplifying what the thumb has to do, and I like being able to keep my finger planted so it touches both shift and ctrl.
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On June 16 2012 04:27 xTrim wrote:
Finally, I still think darkgrid is still superior: even though you have statistics of stuff and etc, the PINKY does rest in shift spot, and hell, having the thumb hit keys besides space is SO unorthodox!
Wasn't the pinky supposed to be on Q in darkgrid? It distinctly remember switching W and Q because I had my pinky on the shift key and it was to hard for me to hit attack/move on Q.
As for the general argument, consider this: didn't it feel uncomfortable to you when starting with the game when you had to use the pinky for shift and ctrl? If it didn't, wasn't that maybe just because you are used to it by using shift/ctrl-combinations in other programs? If so, than this would be exactly Jak's argument: players have to get used to the new feeling. That doesn't mean its inefficient just because the learning curve is steep.
I could understand though if you think retraining muscle memory (or at least mm for certain fingers) is not worth it.
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On June 16 2012 02:05 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:03 maLaK1 wrote:On June 15 2012 13:36 ScoSteSal wrote:
Now, when the hand rests on the left side of the keyboard, the weakest finger (pinky) has to contort itself and the whole hand to reach the shift key you couldn't be more wrong, most people that play on the left side of the keyboard have the pinky resting on shift, how is that harder than using your thumb? Because your thumb is stronger than your pinky. Good point made on the resting position though, many people don't know that.
Your thumb is by far your slowest finger. Pinkies are by far the fastest because of the muscle groups involved. Any drummer with any amount of experience will tell you the same. As such, pinkies should be used on the keys that are spammed the most.
"Weak" vs "strong" does not make any difference, it's small motor muscle groups that matter because they are the most easily manipulated, and thus have the fastest response rate when overal dexterity is increased.
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EPT
