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On August 07 2012 00:19 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 20:56 kollin wrote:
7 vikings per collosus :O
I'm sorry but that's just wrong. You can easily have just 3 per collosus and be fine. The reason tanks aren't used is because they are a lot less mobile than bio and if you get caught unsieged you kind of just die. Also it's probably more micro intensive because if your tanks starts shooting the zealots a lot of your marines will get really damaged.
7 Vikings per Colossus was the last number I heard. But as said, not more than 14, so actually it's 7 per Colo just for the first 2 Colos and then you have enough to 1 shot them already. Having just 3 for 1 Colossus would take too long to take it down... your bio has taken severe damage by then. Mobility: Tanks move exactly at the same speed as bio (2.25). Stimmed bio is faster, but you don't move your army around stimmed, do you? And in a fight tanks don't move, they're sieged. As already said, you HAVE TO micro aka focus fire with the tanks instead of the bio to prevent the tanks from shooting into the bio. Again you do not move the marines around at this point. You leave them standing in front of your tanks to block the Zealots from getting to the tanks. Getting caught unsieged is bad, yes. You should scout very well, Scan where the Protoss army is and stuff. Just unsiege when you're sure the P army isn't close.
So you leave your marines in front of tanks, where storms can get them. Honestly I think there is a reason pros aren't using tanks and it is because Vikings are more cost efficient and more mobile.
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On August 07 2012 03:54 kollin wrote:
So you leave your marines in front of tanks, where storms can get them. Honestly I think there is a reason pros aren't using tanks and it is because Vikings are more cost efficient and more mobile.
I also wrote something about using Ghosts to EMP/Snipe HTs right? Even Tanks have a much bigger range than HT Storm, where we get to the point of focus fire with Tanks.
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On August 07 2012 04:26 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 03:54 kollin wrote:
So you leave your marines in front of tanks, where storms can get them. Honestly I think there is a reason pros aren't using tanks and it is because Vikings are more cost efficient and more mobile. I also wrote something about using Ghosts to EMP/Snipe HTs right? Even Tanks have a much bigger range than HT Storm, where we get to the point of focus fire with Tanks.
Realistically, against a good player, some storms will hit, and that's all that need to against a marine ball stuck in one place. And if you are focus firing ht's with tanks, what's killing the collosus? The thing is you need 6 or 7 tanks for it to be really effective and with that amount if you get caught unsieged you die. Ths isn't even bringing blink stalkers or zealot bombs into this. The fact of the matter is that in against toss tanks are generally bad.
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On August 07 2012 04:31 kollin wrote:
Realistically, against a good player, some storms will hit, and that's all that need to against a marine ball stuck in one place. And if you are focus firing ht's with tanks, what's killing the collosus? The thing is you need 6 or 7 tanks for it to be really effective and with that amount if you get caught unsieged you die. Ths isn't even bringing blink stalkers or zealot bombs into this. The fact of the matter is that in against toss tanks are generally bad.
6 or 7 tanks, yes... in the first post about this i wrote something like 14 Vikings can be replaced by 8 Tanks just gas-wise. I already said enough about the getting caught unsieged part. Scout well and you're fine.
The Protoss can't have infinite amounts of HTs AND Colossi either. And focussing HTs with Tanks is just a possibility, if you didn't manage to EMP/Snipe them all/enough.
For the Blink Stalkers and Zealot Bombs: However they come to you, blinking, charging, flying, falling, the bio is meant to handle that. Even with MMMVG it's said that you need 2 Marines per Zealot and a Marauder per Stalker. If you keep this up here aswell, they should do just as fine combined with Tanks as with Vikings. Even better actually, because Zealots and Stalkers will be partially damaged by Tanks already, because they were probably the first ones to run into tankrange.
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On August 07 2012 16:18 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 04:31 kollin wrote:
Realistically, against a good player, some storms will hit, and that's all that need to against a marine ball stuck in one place. And if you are focus firing ht's with tanks, what's killing the collosus? The thing is you need 6 or 7 tanks for it to be really effective and with that amount if you get caught unsieged you die. Ths isn't even bringing blink stalkers or zealot bombs into this. The fact of the matter is that in against toss tanks are generally bad. 6 or 7 tanks, yes... in the first post about this i wrote something like 14 Vikings can be replaced by 8 Tanks just gas-wise. I already said enough about the getting caught unsieged part. Scout well and you're fine. The Protoss can't have infinite amounts of HTs AND Colossi either. And focussing HTs with Tanks is just a possibility, if you didn't manage to EMP/Snipe them all/enough. For the Blink Stalkers and Zealot Bombs: However they come to you, blinking, charging, flying, falling, the bio is meant to handle that. Even with MMMVG it's said that you need 2 Marines per Zealot and a Marauder per Stalker. If you keep this up here aswell, they should do just as fine combined with Tanks as with Vikings. Even better actually, because Zealots and Stalkers will be partially damaged by Tanks already, because they were probably the first ones to run into tankrange.
But blink stalkers won't give two shits about your bio as either your tanks will rip themselves to pieces or get targeted down by the stalkers.
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Does anyone have any advice for dealing with early pressure in the zerg build? I've found that if I can survive the first 8-10 minutes against my opponent, I win nearly 100% of the time, but my matches don't usually last that long. Against protoss, I often lose to cannon rushes, 4-gates, or dark templars. Against zerg, I get destroyed by early zergling pressure. Against terran, I lose to early marine/marauder attacks. I'd say by far, I'm worst against zerg.
I rarely see the attacks coming until I can see it from a watchtower, so maybe I'm not scouting enough? Even when I do scout a lot of the attacks, I'm not sure what to do. If I see it coming, do I make a lot of zerglings early to deal with early attacks? Usually, by the time I spot it coming, I make zerglings, but it hasn't been working.
I rolled through bronze, but as I play more gold players, I'm losing a lot in the first few minutes of the match.
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Love the videos. Thanks a ton.
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On August 06 2012 18:10 BurningRanger wrote:
This is also meant to be not as micro/multitasking intensive as MMMVG. You don't have to stutterstep while keeping Vikings alive but kill Colossi and EMP/Snipe.
This one has a clear order.
1. siege tanks
2. run forward with Bio, bait opponent, run back to tanks (close), stim where needed
3. focus fire with tanks
4. when all zealots are gone, micro Bio as needed
EMP/Snipe is somewhere inbetween 1 and 3, depending on when you see HTs and if you can cloak Ghosts and run up to snipe... so very situational.
Just some random thoughts.
Siegetank splash on a Colossus hits not just units around, but also below it, taking advantage of that pesky "walk over anything" ability.
Protoss are used to being able to just run into a Terran army that will stutter step backwards. Running into tanks the same way is not that good of an idea.
The problem with your theorycraft is that in any real engagement with Colossus and/or HT, your bio will be forced to retreat and/or kite away from the AOE of Colossus or storm. If your bio stands right beside the Tanks without retreating further, you will lose your bio VERY QUICKLY to AOE. Once you retreat behind your Tanks, now the enemy Zealots are engaging your Tanks directly and it becomes a very disadvantageous encounter regardless of how you micro your Tank fire.
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I finally reached gold as terran thanks to filter. I did not use his builds verbatim but did variations on them based on studying current trends of higher league play and a bit from the pros. Hopefully this will help you all out. This is what I saw from my transition from bronze to gold.
Bronze to top bronze:
You can use the Filter rax and depot only build just to get into top bronze to an extent.The lowest of low league players really like defending, and your marines will die pretty easily. I don't know what else to add here because bronze has leagues within leagues. Some are really bad, some are bad, and some are almost good. You can get out with literally A moving as shown through filter's videos.
Top bronze to silver:
This is where you should start incorporating the 1 rax fe gold/plat benchmark and builds. Since we aren't all masters players our micro and macro won't finish off players then and there. Game time has extended for me. Just remember your probes and pylons. NEVER get supply blocked, and if you never did get blocked AND you were making SCVS, stop making them at 12:30ish. As a rule of thumb, I like to make 3.5 production buildings per base.
You should definitely scout. I know filter doesn't scout, but remember we aren't filter. Don't interpret too much though. What you want to see is cheese or all-ins when you scout, and after that, just let your superior mechanics win the game because that's what your focus should be. Things of note to scout for are 4 gates and heavy gate play with sentries. Don't be afraid to pull scvs. I like to build 3-4 bunkers upon seeing a 4 gate. For reference, check filter's guide on scouting.
A zealot, a probe, and a stalker walk into a bar. Oh wait, that's a proxy pylon happening somewhere... Might be a 4 gate.
Silver to top silver:
At this stage, it's really about getting your build and mechanics cleaner. That's what got me over the hump. You'll see a lot of cheese at this point because i was playing gold league players now. I do feel that gold is the cheese and all-in league. No worries, just look for symptoms and you'll defend them quite easily imo.
Top silver to gold:
Filter's default 1 rax FE is pretty awesome. yep. The thing is, I was stuck there for a month and a half just using that build. Sure, you can probably get to plat with just that, but why not go for a strong unit composition? I took a few days studying pretty safe FE build variations. My mechanics were there, I hit all the benchmarks, but it was very difficult to win, and i felt you had to work a bit harder. My 10 min timing attack against zerg would just fail to a bunch of zerglings with your opponent on three bases in reaction to your FE.
on your road from top silver to gold, i believe the solution is to branch out. You already have the mechanics to imo.
Vs Zerg, I recommend 3cc, 1 rax FE gas first hellion, or a hellion expand. I personally go 1rax FE into hellion because I like being economically aggressive. Hellions are great for spotting cheese. You don't have to do damage with them, just stop creep and look for lings with them. if you see more than 4, that means they might all in you in my experience, so wall up if you do see that. Hellions really help against these all-ins.
off of 1 rax fe, i use 4 hellions, transition into MMM, then transition into MMM tank. The filter bio classic is tough here for me to do especially if they three base me. This should be pretty easy if you've mastered his vids.
Vs Terran:
Terrans are really rare between top silver and gold. I personally wonder why. Terran nation is complaining, i personally do not care but i digress.
if i see them go 1-1-1, what I do is expand anyways, but go Fact then port. So that means gas before double rax. Only once have i fought a terran who did a multi pronged drop on the back with hellions and in the front, I mostly see tank play. Here it's important to get your bunker, a viking, and a tank with siege. It's definitely doable if you went double rax first, but do focus on your mechanics and macro and keep your one bunker in front alive. If you know he's not going viking, what I do is drop him. on his main. What's vital here is to keep your bunker alive, get those tanks out, and macro.
If they go for a FE, I don't build my bunker until much, much later because they physically cannot attack you. They usually do filter's build verbatim, so that means a ten min push!
You might as well learn some type of 1-1-1 because it's a useful build!
Vs Protoss:
I do filter's build verbatim. It starts out bio and ends up bio. I would just be afraid of early sentry with gates and 4 gate pressure. If they are on 1 base, and your expansion check shows them to be there at 5:30, bunker up. If you do play a macro game, be sure to get ghost academy on your 5th and 6th gas, and get ready to throw in some vikings. This matchup was easiest for me because i feel that filter's build is a BO loss for lowbie toss, and I feel a lot of them just expect to win in 12 min because of early pressure. I would also tell you to be wary of dark templars. if i see double gas, I make a turret at the front.
If you miss upgrades, miss your scvs and supply depots, the top silver to gold advice would mean absolutely nothing. just keep that in mind.
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Filter, or anyone else who can help.
Former Platinum Terran, took a long break and used this guide to get some of my chops back. The Terran guide works great. I was able to regularly beat Silver and Gold players with nothing but 0/0 marines, lots of fun! Worked my way from Bronze to Silver and decided to switch over to Zerg once I found your Zerg videos.
My success with Zerg is much worse. I'm about 50/50 win/loss in Silver using the Bronze-level video, even though I am able to hit the benchmarks pretty regularly. I've been practicing the next step up, from your 3rd video (4 queens, sim city with evo chamber), but I am really struggling with the benchmarks after 6 minutes. I can get >35 drones by 6:00 with no problem, but it seems like there is SO much to do between 6:00 and 8:00 that my mechanics or APM or whatever can't keep up.
- build 4 gas
- build first evo chamber
- reposition 2nd set of queens
- keep up with injects and overlords
- put 12 drones on extractors (this honestly takes me some time, I not terribly fast)
- build warren and other evo chamber
- start Lair
- start +1/+1
- start roach speed
- start making roaches
Usually by the time I get all this done, I'm already well past the 8:00 mark, and supply blocked or behind on injects or something. I tried starting 2 gas earlier, then adding 2 more later, but I ended up being short on minerals. Any thoughts on how to modify the build order to make things less busy between 6:00 and 8:00?
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In my clan there are several players that have studied Filter's videos and some have gone from silver to plat in as little as 3 weeks.
But they all seem to hit a wall and have a hard time improving due to little to no understanding or creativity.
These make a good start, but a start is all they are.
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trying out terran again, never really making that 10min 50scv benchmark. anyone got some tips on remembering?
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On August 09 2012 03:04 Jojo131 wrote:
trying out terran again, never really making that 10min 50scv benchmark. anyone got some tips on remembering?
well...I am assuming you use hotkeys, if so just constantly get into a routine of toggling through, regardless of what your doing, because then THAT action will become second nature, and you won't even think about it, but more about the rest of the stuff such as whether to go double ebay or fast tanks etc.... the 50 scv isnt impossible, if you can get anywhere of 48 up, then I would say you are 'hitting' the target.
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On August 09 2012 03:04 Jojo131 wrote:
trying out terran again, never really making that 10min 50scv benchmark. anyone got some tips on remembering?
Just open a game without any opponent and build only marines,scvs,depots and barracks and don´t mine any gas. Make sure you hotkey your ccs and your barracks and then do the "tapping". Let´s say you have all your ccs on 4 and all your barracks on 5, just hit 4,5,4,5,4,5,4,5 and everytime you hit a number you look with your eyes on the bottom of the screen, if a scv or a marine is closed to finish, queue up another one. If you have multiple buildings in one hotkey you have to left-click with your mouse on every single barracks or cc listend on the screen below the hotkeys to see how far the marine or the scv is from finishing. If that´s too much for the beginning just make sure there is allways 1 additional scv or marine queued up.
Just do it a few times and you´ll get used to the "tapping" method. Building depots and barracks are meant to distract you by your task, but you have to make sure to constantly produce scvs and marines. If you want to higher up the difficulty you can move with your marines in a cycle in the middle of the map while doing the "tapping"
I think this training is called "mineral drain" if i am correct and the first time i have seen it was in a day9 daily. I really liked this training and it helped me when i was in Platinum, but even now in Master i sometimes do it just because it´s fun.
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holy crap. I'm in the replay packs!
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On August 09 2012 03:04 Jojo131 wrote:
trying out terran again, never really making that 10min 50scv benchmark. anyone got some tips on remembering?
I think the most efficient hotkeys to have are to have all CCs and Upgrade buildings on 4 and all production on 5. This leaves you 3 hotkeys for army, if you need more then it would be alirght to bump everything up a key so production would become 6 etc.
Then to hit 50 SCVs just make sure you have 2 SCVs queued up at all times. As soon as you see one SCV being produced from each OC then just queue another 2 up. Ideally you shouldn't queue but its better to queue than to delay producing SCVs.
The simplest way to remember to keep building SCVs is to learn a cycle. A basic cycle would look something like this:
1. Production. Check if you need to queue up SCVs then produce army. You will also be able to see if you need to start an upgrade since they will be hot keyed to 4.
2. Supply. Check your supply and build depots. You will usually have 1 SCV constantly building depots in the early game and then will require a second SCV constantly building depots as you reach about 50 supply.
3. Infrastructure. Any left over resources should be invested into more infrastructure (more rax/cc/fact etc).
4. Minimap/Army. Check your mini map for drops/incoming attacks and position your army. Nothing worse than spending the whole game building marine tanks and getting demolished because you hadn't checked your mini map or army and all your tanks were unsieged and marines were clumped up and banelings straight up rolled on through.
Rinse and Repeat.
So in reality all you are doing is pressing 4 build, 5 build, build depot, build infrastructure, position army. The more you complete the cycle the faster you will get at it up until a point where you will be able to do the whole cycle with out even thinking about it.
Then late game all you really have to do is 5 build, position army. Unless of course some shenanigans have occured and you have lost 40 workers and need to replace them lol.
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On August 09 2012 02:22 Tuplex wrote:
Filter, or anyone else who can help.
Former Platinum Terran, took a long break and used this guide to get some of my chops back. The Terran guide works great. I was able to regularly beat Silver and Gold players with nothing but 0/0 marines, lots of fun! Worked my way from Bronze to Silver and decided to switch over to Zerg once I found your Zerg videos.
My success with Zerg is much worse. I'm about 50/50 win/loss in Silver using the Bronze-level video, even though I am able to hit the benchmarks pretty regularly. I've been practicing the next step up, from your 3rd video (4 queens, sim city with evo chamber), but I am really struggling with the benchmarks after 6 minutes. I can get >35 drones by 6:00 with no problem, but it seems like there is SO much to do between 6:00 and 8:00 that my mechanics or APM or whatever can't keep up.
- build 4 gas
- build first evo chamber
- reposition 2nd set of queens
- keep up with injects and overlords
- put 12 drones on extractors (this honestly takes me some time, I not terribly fast)
- build warren and other evo chamber
- start Lair
- start +1/+1
- start roach speed
- start making roaches
Usually by the time I get all this done, I'm already well past the 8:00 mark, and supply blocked or behind on injects or something. I tried starting 2 gas earlier, then adding 2 more later, but I ended up being short on minerals. Any thoughts on how to modify the build order to make things less busy between 6:00 and 8:00?
There's a very simple solution to fixing the clutter, remember things by in order of how they trigger. You know everything that has to be accomplished in that window, but do you know exactly what order you should be doing things? and how to trigger them?
Something as simple as building the evo's after you put your drones in gas can save a lot of time (even if it's not technically at 7 minutes) because you won't forget and be late with it.
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Thanks, Filter, sounds like good advice. I will try to link all those tasks together so it flows more smoothly. That should help.
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Filter, these guides are absolutely fantastic!!! I bought the game a month ago, played terrible and placed in mid bronze, now I'm #2 gold and playing plats half the time. You helped me understand the game SOOOOOO much more than anything else out there (including day9, whom I love <3), thank you!
In the gold level guide I go techlab on factory and tanks with naked starport and pure marine instead of marine marauders and double medivacs. I find it works better against terran and zerg. Am I missing out on something important part of the training by doing this "shortcut"?
Thanks!
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On August 10 2012 04:12 mihajovics wrote:
Filter, these guides are absolutely fantastic!!! I bought the game a month ago, played terrible and placed in mid bronze, now I'm #2 gold and playing plats half the time. You helped me understand the game SOOOOOO much more than anything else out there (including day9, whom I love <3), thank you!
In the gold level guide I go techlab on factory and tanks with naked starport and pure marine instead of marine marauders and double medivacs. I find it works better against terran and zerg. Am I missing out on something important part of the training by doing this "shortcut"?
Thanks!
Nope, in fact I discuss that variation in the plat videos. It's all personal preference. In fact, I'd say your ability to change things and rely on your mechanics is much more important than simply doing one build over and over.
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EPT
