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On August 30 2012 10:26 Jermman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:29 9-BiT wrote:I posted this in the strat section as well, but figured I could get some more help here. I had a tvz on antiga. The problems I'm having is; At ~11 minutes I start banking too many minerals I'm not being aggressive enough Need to drop more Need to scout army comp Bad macro overall I'm using filterSC guides. http://drop.sc/243849Thanks in advance <3 It didnt make sense to make a thread for this, and it doesnt make sense to post it now. You've identified your own problems..
Identifying the problems is only the first step. You need to know how to fix the problem.
Okay, i watched the replay and the main factor for the loss is, yes you guessed it, macro.
You float minerals thorough out the mid and late game. You should check your mineral and gas count constantly. Go through a round of production and depots etc and then check if you have any spare minerals. If you do build something. Throw down a load more rax or a cc etc. Money on the field is better than money in the bank. Pros only have the amount of production facilities that they can use with the current amount of income they have. This is because they hardly ever have idle production. Us mortals how ever do have idle production and very often. This means our money stacks ups so we need to build more production facilities than we actually can afford to produce off to get that money back down again.
So problem 1 you could work on is managing production. Making sure that after a round of production etc your money is low, if not build more production.
Problem 2. Idle SCVs. Through out the game you have idle SCVs. From the mid game you average about 20 idle SCVs till the end of the game, at some points even reaching 30. Idle SCVs are basically dead weight. Remember to re-rally your workers back to the mineral line after building something. 20 SCVs is about 650 minerals per minute of income. That is game changing.
Just by fixing those 2 problems you will win a lot more games.
Just a note your positioning etc, when playing marine tank against zerg you need to either be offensively positioned or defensively positioned. Sitting on the watch tower is like trying to be both and doesnt really work. You aren't putting on any real pressure and you cant really defend your base all that well either. Either get on the edge of his creep or stay home.
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Hey, I'm using your videos in Silver League, but I can't seem to win at all anymore (before I played in Bronze, but moved up to Silver by 3-raxing, but I didn't really like that). I find it especially hard win Banshees arrive in my base or when there is a doom drop or seige tanks/banelings at the opponent's army.
I'm going to admit that I can't get the timing exactly right, I'll get 48-52 scv's @ 10:00, but my Medivacs are mostly there around 10:30~11:30 while playing on the ladder. I can imagine it is very important to have the medivacs with you @10:00 exactly, but what do I do when I face a seiged opponent or an opponent with banelings?
And I also would like to know if there is a big difference between the Silver and Gold builds, otherwise I'm starting with that.
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I'm going to admit that I can't get the timing exactly right, I'll get 48-52 scv's @ 10:00, but my Medivacs are mostly there around 10:30~11:30 while playing on the ladder. I can imagine it is very important to have the medivacs with you @10:00 exactly, but what do I do when I face a seiged opponent or an opponent with banelings?
Thats your problem. You should be able to consistently get medivacs out by 10:00. If you can't, you're not executing the build correctly. Let me explain why its such a big deal. Lets use TvP as an example. You 1 rax expand against his 1 gate FE. If you get there at 10:30-10:40, even against diamond/masters players he has a maximum of 1-2 colossi out assuming fairly standard play. If you get there at 12:00 because your medivacs were late, he has 3-4 colossi out and range done, and you have 0 vikings and 2 medivacs. He can just kill you because you don't have the tech to be able to deal with his tech.
I find it especially hard win Banshees arrive in my base or when there is a doom drop or seige tanks/banelings at the opponent's army.
Overall less important than your previous issue. Banelings/ Siege Tanks are somewhat less scary if you're getting tanks out faster, and harassment (drops/banshees/mutas/etc.) is rarely well executed in silver league (logically if they could harass/macro at the same time they'd be at least platinum if not diamond). Generally the way to shut this kind of play down is map control and good minimap awareness, which as I said, is a fair bit less important at your level of play than correct build execution.
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On August 31 2012 00:29 Negius wrote:
Hey, I'm using your videos in Silver League, but I can't seem to win at all anymore (before I played in Bronze, but moved up to Silver by 3-raxing, but I didn't really like that). I find it especially hard win Banshees arrive in my base or when there is a doom drop or seige tanks/banelings at the opponent's army.
I'm going to admit that I can't get the timing exactly right, I'll get 48-52 scv's @ 10:00, but my Medivacs are mostly there around 10:30~11:30 while playing on the ladder. I can imagine it is very important to have the medivacs with you @10:00 exactly, but what do I do when I face a seiged opponent or an opponent with banelings?
And I also would like to know if there is a big difference between the Silver and Gold builds, otherwise I'm starting with that.
If you can't hit the silver timing (especially with the scvs), then don't bother moving onto the gold benchmarks. The whole point of the video series is to master one aspect of the build before you move onto the next. Your MINIMUM target for scvs should be 50, not 48. If you get 48, think of it as "not good enough". 50 is solid, 52 is optimal. Also, 10:30-11:30 for medivacs is way too slow. You want to be at your opponent's base by 10:30-11.
Gold league builds incorporate stim and +1 attack. It doesn't sound like much, but you'd be surprised how much cleaner your macro has to be in order to the money efficiently for the upgrades while constantly producing units for that 100 supply @10 min timing.
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On August 31 2012 00:58 Borgbilly wrote:Show nested quote +I'm going to admit that I can't get the timing exactly right, I'll get 48-52 scv's @ 10:00, but my Medivacs are mostly there around 10:30~11:30 while playing on the ladder. I can imagine it is very important to have the medivacs with you @10:00 exactly, but what do I do when I face a seiged opponent or an opponent with banelings? Thats your problem. You should be able to consistently get medivacs out by 10:00. If you can't, you're not executing the build correctly. Let me explain why its such a big deal. Lets use TvP as an example. You 1 rax expand against his 1 gate FE. If you get there at 10:30-10:40, even against diamond/masters players he has a maximum of 1-2 colossi out assuming fairly standard play. If you get there at 12:00 because your medivacs were late, he has 3-4 colossi out and range done, and you have 0 vikings and 2 medivacs. He can just kill you because you don't have the tech to be able to deal with his tech.
Thanks for that information, that indeed really shows how important the exact timing is.
On August 31 2012 01:01 awwnuts07 wrote:
If you can't hit the silver timing (especially with the scvs), then don't bother moving onto the gold benchmarks. The whole point of the video series is to master one aspect of the build before you move onto the next. Your MINIMUM target for scvs should be 50, not 48. If you get 48, think of it as "not good enough". 50 is solid, 52 is optimal. Also, 10:30-11:30 for medivacs is way too slow. You want to be at your opponent's base by 10:30-11.
Gold league builds incorporate stim and +1 attack. It doesn't sound like much, but you'd be surprised how much cleaner your macro has to be in order to the money efficiently for the upgrades while constantly producing units for that 100 supply @10 min timing.
Okay, I will refrain from touching the gold one, until I can perfectly hit this, thanks for pointing that out.
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Used this guide to go from bronze to top 10 gold.. actually got promoted from rank 1 silver straight to rank 1 gold. Excellent guide and I have to add that I have the late start bug. I have been winning with a 10 second delay. Thanks alot
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Been using this guide to switch from Toss to Terran. Frankly, it's been showing me the flaws in my Toss game as well. two birds with one stone. Thanks Filter.
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Hey guys, I just want to share something that I find interesting.
From bronze to gold went kind of easy thanks to this build. Well I had to practice a lot but I never felt like hitting a wall. I kind of feel like plateauing though now since I'm top gold and started playing plats (even a a diamond here and there). There are certain situations that just feel hopeless. For example I simply just lose to a good platinum or diamond level 1-1-1 cloack banshee into tank with siege allin with the gold build. Even if I know it's coming. Is this because I suck or is it simply a build order loss? And zerg can feel really, really overwhelming by the time I move out at 10min, especially ling+bling+infestor with upgrades. And of course filter's mass roach as well hits really hard.
So I checked out the build variations because I taught maybe the metagame changed, the players gotten better a little and the gold build is actually basically the standard TvP 1rax exp bio build and is not designed against zerg and terran. But then I analised my replays with sc2tools and I was really surprized that I had an over 50% winrate against zerg and terran with the standard gold build, but only 33% against protoss!
My question is what do you guys think about the meta game changes since this guide came out (especially ZvT with the newer 4-6 queen builds) and how well do the build variations work Filter teaches us. Also, maybe this is the real issue, even if the builds are "dated" at what level do you think the build order really starts to matter? Masters? Grand Masters? Also is it possible that players are somewhat stronger on the EU server? I checked out Filter's replays and it simply felt like everithing was shifted one league compared to my experiences. The opponents in the gold level replays were the kind of opponents I was facing off in silver, etc. Is this just psychology or could this be a real thing? Thx guys!
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On September 01 2012 23:41 mihajovics wrote:
Hey guys, I just want to share something that I find interesting.
From bronze to gold went kind of easy thanks to this build. Well I had to practice a lot but I never felt like hitting a wall. I kind of feel like plateauing though now since I'm top gold and started playing plats (even a a diamond here and there). There are certain situations that just feel hopeless. For example I simply just lose to a good platinum or diamond level 1-1-1 cloack banshee into tank with siege allin with the gold build. Even if I know it's coming. Is this because I suck or is it simply a build order loss? And zerg can feel really, really overwhelming by the time I move out at 10min, especially ling+bling+infestor with upgrades. And of course filter's mass roach as well hits really hard.
So I checked out the build variations because I taught maybe the metagame changed, the players gotten better a little and the gold build is actually basically the standard TvP 1rax exp bio build and is not designed against zerg and terran. But then I analised my replays with sc2tools and I was really surprized that I had an over 50% winrate against zerg and terran with the standard gold build, but only 33% against protoss!
My question is what do you guys think about the meta game changes since this guide came out (especially ZvT with the newer 4-6 queen builds) and how well do the build variations work Filter teaches us. Also, maybe this is the real issue, even if the builds are "dated" at what level do you think the build order really starts to matter? Masters? Grand Masters? Also is it possible that players are somewhat stronger on the EU server? I checked out Filter's replays and it simply felt like everithing was shifted one league compared to my experiences. The opponents in the gold level replays were the kind of opponents I was facing off in silver, etc. Is this just psychology or could this be a real thing? Thx guys!
I think you're missing the point of the vids. Filter uses the 1 rax expo because it's a solid build, not because it's the magic bullet for every situation. By doing the same build over and over you train your hands and mind to do small important stuff automatically. When you can automatically build workers or you don't have to stop and remember which building comes down next, you can spend more time looking at the mini-map or deducing what build your opponent is going for and react accordingly. If you're at the skill level where you can do the small important stuff and hit your timing while scouting, running units around the map, etc, then by all means, start changing your build.
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I have watched many tutorials before filter's one. I m now platinum and I can say thx Filter. Using his tutorial most of the games I lost was my fault and only my fault. Mostly micro issues. I have beaten some diamond guys in tournament and even when I loose ag them my macro is now similar. Now I reach the funny thing of the game. Game sense, try to understand what the guy is doing. I just start the build variation this week, and I'm not so far of the benchmarks. To sum up, most of the time u loose with filter gameplay it s ur fault keep that in mind
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Of course I get what's the goal of these videos, he even calls this style of play "NOT a build order" in his videos... My question is where is the skill ceiling that you can get away with a robust build like the kind filter teaches? And how much of results is due to build order and how much to "pure skill". For example I would probably lose against Idra even if he 6pooled me, although after a certain skill level it should be an auto loss for zerg versus terran. But, I would probably win against a drone rush 
Because the gold level "build" is basically a "real TvP build order", theoretically I should be doing the best in TvP. Actually what I found out is that I suck the most at TvP and do OK against terran and zerg. Thus the conclusion is that at gold league, my build order is not as important as my mechanics. My question is, where does this statement become untrue (if it ever becomes untrue)? At masters? At grandmasters?
I feel that at platinum/diamond this build just doesn't work against a good platinum/diamond 1-1-1 allin. I checked out the other builds because I ran into these allins a lot and it just wasn't fun. I don't mind losing if I feel I can improve and learn something. Heck, I ENJOY losing if I learn something valuable. So i'm fine with the anwser: "just get better at other aspects of the game and win despite everything" as long as it' actually doable. To me, it seems like this build just loses to a good 1-1-1 allin, but I might be completely wrong.
I'm just interested in your opinion on this question regarding metagame changes since the guide came out. Also about the EU/NA server skill difference. Is it a real thing?
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I think it sounds like I'm whining... but I'm not and I really get it and understand what you guys are saying about improving one's game and I agree
I'm talking about something completely different from that. I'm interested in hipothetical cases. Let's say that a "perfect player" like Taeja does the gold level build (remember, no scouting there, anything that comes hits you blind) and someone does the fastest possible cloack banshee into marine + tank with siege push (like Puma against MMA in day9 daily 431 part 1). I feel like this is an easy loss and even perhaps a diamond player would be able to beat Taeja this way.
If you include scouting, taking a third, etc. so the platinum level "build", in my opinion you would still need a player around 2 leagues better than the attacker, so a master level player (like Filter) could hold the push against a platinum player, but not against another master player, etc.
What do you guys think about this? Am I wrong in my assesment regarding these two builds?
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On September 02 2012 03:04 mihajovics wrote:Of course I get what's the goal of these videos, he even calls this style of play "NOT a build order" in his videos... My question is where is the skill ceiling that you can get away with a robust build like the kind filter teaches? And how much of results is due to build order and how much to "pure skill". For example I would probably lose against Idra even if he 6pooled me, although after a certain skill level it should be an auto loss for zerg versus terran. But, I would probably win against a drone rush Because the gold level "build" is basically a "real TvP build order", theoretically I should be doing the best in TvP. Actually what I found out is that I suck the most at TvP and do OK against terran and zerg. Thus the conclusion is that at gold league, my build order is not as important as my mechanics. My question is, where does this statement become untrue (if it ever becomes untrue)? At masters? At grandmasters?
I don't think it ever becomes true. Or, if it is true, it's only true at the highest levels play, IMO. I think the reason we lower-level players feel the sting of build order losses more harshly is because our macro/micro isn't solid.
Have you ever watched ForGG ladder? He comes from the old BW school of practicing so he will do the same build over and over again to really test the strengths and weaknesses of said build. I've seen people in the chat complain he's boring to watch because he doesn't play multiple styles, but if you pay attention, you can see he alters the build here and there depending on what he scouts, but in the end, it's still the same build. There are games where he should have died to a build order that hard countered his, but he didn't because he mechanics were fucking awesome. It's what you (and I) should be striving for.
CreatorPrime is another great example of how doing the exact same shit every single game can yield results. In every PvT you know he's going to throw down those double forges.
These players' approach to the game is one I've heard the higher level peeps recommend as the fastest way to improve mechanics and game knowledge. It's not the most exciting way to play, just the most efficient way to improve.
On September 02 2012 03:04 mihajovics wrote:
I feel that at platinum/diamond this build just doesn't work against a good platinum/diamond 1-1-1 allin. I checked out the other builds because I ran into these allins a lot and it just wasn't fun. I don't mind losing if I feel I can improve and learn something. Heck, I ENJOY losing if I learn something valuable. So i'm fine with the anwser: "just get better at other aspects of the game and win despite everything" as long as it' actually doable. To me, it seems like this build just loses to a good 1-1-1 allin, but I might be completely wrong.
Here's how you can feel you're learning something even though you're getting killed by 1-1-1s and the like. Ask yourself this question:
"Am I hitting my benchmarks?"
I don't just mean the 10 min benchmark Filter set, but the smaller ones set throughout the video. Is that Factory coming down at 6:55? When that rush hits your front door, compare your supply to Filter's for that same time stamp. If you're below what he had, then consider your failure at macro the real loss, not that you didn't have the right unit comp to beat his attack.
That's how I view my success/failure on ladder.
If I manage to win with an army that is 5-6 supply short when I push at the 10 min mark, I consider that a failure. If I lose a game to mis-control, BUT I happened to hit my benchmarks at the proper time, I consider that a success.
On September 02 2012 03:04 mihajovics wrote:
Also about the EU/NA server skill difference. Is it a real thing?
I play on the NA server so I can't tell you, but I did dl some games to see if there was any difference and as far as I could tell, the skill gap only lengthens at the higher leagues (high diamond, masters, gm). Speaking strictly of the lower leagues, I noticed EU played a little cleaner, but NA is more unpredictable (my experience), but both could still be called terrible (Korea being the standard of comparison).
But seriously dood, don't blame your losses on something other than your own lack of skill. Doing anything else leads to being Idra. You know, the guy who blames his losses on EVERYTHING but himself. I don't know about you, but I actively try not to be Idra.
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At what point do you think you can transition away from these builds? At some point you stop winning with them, if your opponent is good enough, no matter how good your macro is. I'm finding at about diamond level i'm hitting a wall where I can't get any farther, even though my macro is 'diamond level'. Is it ok to start transitioning away from these builds now?
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Filter,
I'd just like to thank you for putting this series on. I have gone through the first 10 or so videos. Even without hitting the benchmarks every game (due to attack/spaced out/my low apm), I defeated two platinum players (silver league atm) by simply surviving their all in attacks and having such an economic lead i just bio'd up and went at them. Doing this mostly without scouting! The only other game I've lost is i didn't pull enough scvs for the bunk repair - otherwise the zerg was sitting on a one base 7 roach all in.
I know this isn't a big deal for most players - but before this my game had zero structure. Now I have goals with each game and a mindset of why i lost as opposed to no idea at all.
Anyways - i only really ever played team league before, but now 1v1'in is a blast - thanks filter
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Great job man. Really well done. We as a SC community need more positive things like this :D
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On September 02 2012 08:16 awwnuts07 wrote:
Here's how you can feel you're learning something even though you're getting killed by 1-1-1s and the like. Ask yourself this question:
"Am I hitting my benchmarks?"
I don't just mean the 10 min benchmark Filter set, but the smaller ones set throughout the video. Is that Factory coming down at 6:55? When that rush hits your front door, compare your supply to Filter's for that same time stamp. If you're below what he had, then consider your failure at macro the real loss, not that you didn't have the right unit comp to beat his attack.
That's how I view my success/failure on ladder.
If I manage to win with an army that is 5-6 supply short when I push at the 10 min mark, I consider that a failure. If I lose a game to mis-control, BUT I happened to hit my benchmarks at the proper time, I consider that a success.
Yes, exactly how I approach ladder too! Except that I don't consider it a success if my control is terrible But it is definitely reassuring to know where to look for mistakes. I think the single biggest achievement of Filter in these guides is that he provides us with these benchmarks! Because if you do hit the benchmarks, your foundation is solid and you have to look somewhere else, it's not your macro. If you don't hit them, then back to the basics. It is really hard to know specifically where your macro slips without these benchmarks.
On September 02 2012 08:16 awwnuts07 wrote:
But seriously dood, don't blame your losses on something other than your own lack of skill. Doing anything else leads to being Idra. You know, the guy who blames his losses on EVERYTHING but himself. I don't know about you, but I actively try not to be Idra.
I really don't blame anything else but myself for my losses! I want to improve my skill.
I brought up this question because if (and this is a big IF) the build order simply loses to certain other builds after a certain level of skill, then it is simply not benificial to do the said build.
I'm simply interested if whether because of recent metagame changes it would be more beneficial for players to apply the REAL teachings of Filter's videos (which is not the build itself, but the ideas of constant scv production, establishing good benchmarks through practice and hitting them in game, etc) to a different "build" than the standard TvP 1rax expand that Filter uses.
It is possible for example that with the queen changes the 10 min push to 15 min max style just doesn't work anymore, because even platinum level players are capable to execute a mass ling/bling/infestor style that murders it. I'm not saying this is the case, I have no idea. I would like to know of someone's opinion on this, who is much stronger than myself (Filter?).
For example in his branching out videos Filter tells us that the fast ghost TvP build is weak to a lot of things and is not that strong, but it's fun and doable. I think it is very valuable to know these kind of weaknesses and strengths of builds we are executing.
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I was thinking about creating a blog or youtube channel following my play as I attempted to go from my very first online starcraft game to diamond, showing where I think I'm going wrong, what I'm improving and how. I was thinking it'd help anyone else coming from the same position to improve their game as well, but quite frankly after reading this it's all redundant. Everything I and I assume anyone else from my position needs to learn is laid out here perfectly, so a huge thanks to Filter for these benchmarks and these guides. It's the most useful thing I've read and watched when it comes to improving my game and that includes the ridiculous amount of day[9]'s newbie Tuesdays I've watched.
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