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[G] Stephano-Style ZvP – The 12 Minute Max-Out - Page 11

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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fokasu
Profile Joined March 2012
Canada5 Posts
April 13 2012 22:03 GMT
#201
I think you always want more base than a protoss or a terran, so if hes taking a fast 3rd, that means you wont get any aggression really fast so you can take your 4th and get your economy up so you can max out in less than a minute .... Or if you see that the protoss is going with colossi, then add corruptor to the mix. You also want to focus on the immortal (if any) in the battle.
Just my opinion of a gold zerg
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-13 22:17:13
April 13 2012 22:15 GMT
#202
On April 14 2012 06:48 Fliparoni wrote:
I played a game today on Daybreak where I was doing this build and the Protoss took a really early 3rd at around 6 mins. I maxed out around 12 min and tried to go attack his 3rd and it didn't work out. Forcefields plus a wall of gateways stopped me. I ended up losing but my question is this: When a Protoss takes a really early third should I make earlier roaches and try and pressure him before the 12 min mark? Whenever I win with this build, its when I max out at 12 but the Protoss took a much later 3rd and I was able to successfully destroy/prevent it.

Try taking a 4th faster and droning to 80. You can get brood lords by ~14 minutes if you do this, which they will have trouble preventing as you can defend their meager army with ling/roach/infestor. I've seen people take the fast third and this has been successful for me. Stephano vs WhiteRa in IPL is a good example of this kind of thing, though Stephano opted to pressure with roaches after his 4th base instead of go straight to BL.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 14 2012 13:03 GMT
#203
On April 13 2012 12:50 The_Darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2012 09:42 TangSC wrote:
On April 13 2012 00:09 The_Darkness wrote:
Yesterday, Stephano also hit 192/200 at 12:00 after losing his third to cannons, which is freaking ridiculous. He even built 8-10 early lings and harassed the Protoss for a good portion of the early game, killing several probes.

How did he respond to losing his 3rd? I played an interesting game today where protoss cannon rushed my 3rd:
http://drop.sc/158796

My response was just to expand to the gold immediately and try to keep the rest of the timings the same.



He expanded to the 3 o'clock base on Korhal. He spawned at the 1-2 o'clock base. He's been taking a fourth gas right around the time he takes a third and getting a macro hatch, so he's slightly tweaked the build described in the OP and it seems better than ever (which has to be very scary for P).

Interesting, thanks a lot! I'll look into these new changes.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 14 2012 13:07 GMT
#204
On April 14 2012 06:48 Fliparoni wrote:
I played a game today on Daybreak where I was doing this build and the Protoss took a really early 3rd at around 6 mins. I maxed out around 12 min and tried to go attack his 3rd and it didn't work out. Forcefields plus a wall of gateways stopped me. I ended up losing but my question is this: When a Protoss takes a really early third should I make earlier roaches and try and pressure him before the 12 min mark?

Yes, by 10:30 your speed should be done which means you start pressuring hard. There's no excuse for letting a protoss player hold a 6minute third base. I would just cut a few corners knowing he can't attack and drone up right to full saturation with 4-5 gas and 4 hatcheries, then really pump the production so I can deny that base between the 10:30 and 12 minute marks.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
PuPu
Profile Joined September 2011
Finland120 Posts
April 14 2012 13:16 GMT
#205
Great guide ^^
"Mmm, It's nice"
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
April 15 2012 18:54 GMT
#206
On April 13 2012 04:05 goswser wrote:
As soon as people start competently executing strong allins against him (double robo immortal, 8 gate) hes going to start losing games.


Good point. If only JYP could competently execute a two-base all in he wouldn't be 1-6 against Stephano.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
MrRicewife
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada515 Posts
April 15 2012 18:59 GMT
#207
Great thread man
So? My dad can beat up your dad. - Jesus
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2012 20:07 GMT
#208
On April 16 2012 03:54 The_Darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2012 04:05 goswser wrote:
As soon as people start competently executing strong allins against him (double robo immortal, 8 gate) hes going to start losing games.


Good point. If only JYP could competently execute a two-base all in he wouldn't be 1-6 against Stephano.

Yeah, I think well-executed all-ins are a viable option for protoss but it's not like Stephano hasn't beaten all-in timing attacks from the best of the best.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Skroach
Profile Joined December 2010
United States85 Posts
April 17 2012 05:05 GMT
#209
On April 16 2012 05:07 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2012 03:54 The_Darkness wrote:
On April 13 2012 04:05 goswser wrote:
As soon as people start competently executing strong allins against him (double robo immortal, 8 gate) hes going to start losing games.


Good point. If only JYP could competently execute a two-base all in he wouldn't be 1-6 against Stephano.

Yeah, I think well-executed all-ins are a viable option for protoss but it's not like Stephano hasn't beaten all-in timing attacks from the best of the best.



Think he was sarcastic there, as JYP is sick.
"Us humans can't even imagine travelling at the speed of light because it's really really really really really really fun." - Tim and Eric
i3ubbles
Profile Joined October 2011
United States41 Posts
April 17 2012 09:28 GMT
#210
I think what protoss needs to do is just get some early immortals till you get like 4 and you can move it for a third. Many zergs are doing this strat so protoss can just blindly do this.
Here's a replay of it: http://www.mediafire.com/?t512wq5gdn03fn1
Gyoza
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden45 Posts
April 17 2012 11:21 GMT
#211
Thanks for an awesome guide Tang!
I've recently been playing more and more Zerg and might even make a total switch from P to Z since playing Zerg is so much fun!

I've have a question though, when doing this particular build I end up with a surplus of minerals more often than not (sometimes I happen to overdrone so that might be a reason). And then I was watching Stephano himself do this build and he also seemed to have quite a good amount of minerals.

Would it be a bad idea to, in the case of overdroning, to turn those drones to spines/spores and maybe even get more drones for this purpose.. Seeing as I seem to get so much extra minerals?
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 17 2012 11:39 GMT
#212
Tang is away for a few days, so be sure to check back on Wednesday for his answer.

If you mess up and over-drone, you may as well build spines or other buildings with the extra ones, since you have the minerals to do so and you will want to free up the supply for units. As far as intentionally overdroning, this is counter-productive.If you happen to have extra drones its one thing; intentionally making extra drones just so you can spend down your minerals on static defense is a waste of larvae. Over- anything is bad almost always; spending too much on one thing almost always means not enough on another. Even if you float 2k 2k in the late game, thats gonna disappear the second you re-max your army so it's whatever. Floating late is ok; floating early means youre doing something wrong.

.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
Snerren
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden58 Posts
April 17 2012 12:42 GMT
#213
I hate this fucking play so incredibly much! It's so god damn easy to execute but damn near impossible to defend. You have to play absolutely perfectly to survive this. And even then if you are pushed back enough you can't do dmg to the zerg and have to pray he won't break you until you manage to mass up the perfect army. And even then it's often slaughtered by BL/infestor play. And you have to rely on your gimmick unit The Mothership and pray to god you hit your vortex to be able to toilet the zerg. And god forbid the Mothership gets Neurald. Because then you are dead again.
I'll take you all on!
straycat
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
230 Posts
April 17 2012 13:07 GMT
#214
Does anyone have a good way to keep track of how many drones that have been made for each base? Or do you just constantly check (ctrl-click for example) the drone count at the nat and the 3rd? I tend to feverishly produce drones and sometimes get oversated for some time on the nat, for example. Maybe it's just something that will resolve once I get more used to the build?

It's all a blur of queens and overlords and drones.... :O
straycat
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
230 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-17 13:16:54
April 17 2012 13:16 GMT
#215
On April 17 2012 21:42 Snerren wrote:
I hate this fucking play so incredibly much! It's so god damn easy to execute but damn near impossible to defend. You have to play absolutely perfectly to survive this. And even then if you are pushed back enough you can't do dmg to the zerg and have to pray he won't break you until you manage to mass up the perfect army. And even then it's often slaughtered by BL/infestor play. And you have to rely on your gimmick unit The Mothership and pray to god you hit your vortex to be able to toilet the zerg. And god forbid the Mothership gets Neurald. Because then you are dead again.


If at sort of 9 minutes the zerg has not been disrupted, then it's kind of easy, yes (supposing that the z has some notion of not attacking into chokes where ff will cut the roaches into nice little easily digestable pieces of cannon fodder cakes... ). Other than that, most ppl who are not Stephano will probably see the 12 minute mark start drifting upwards considerably in the face of pressure. But hey, could be that I am a noob, too.


Edit: Whoooo, post 100!
Automata
Profile Joined March 2011
393 Posts
April 17 2012 13:17 GMT
#216
Could this build be done in vT or even vZ?
straycat
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
230 Posts
April 17 2012 13:20 GMT
#217
On April 16 2012 05:07 TangSC wrote:

Yeah, I think well-executed all-ins are a viable option for protoss but it's not like Stephano hasn't beaten all-in timing attacks from the best of the best.


Once, can't remember which tournament, I saw Steph taking fast third without drone scout just supposing the Protoss would go ffe, but his opponent went for 4 gate! I felt kind of smugly satisfied seeing it as I thought it would be a lesson on the importance of not taking things for granted. But Stephano held it. It was cool and nauseating at the same time. It was on Antiga, I believe.
jimbob615
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Uruguay455 Posts
April 17 2012 13:53 GMT
#218
On April 17 2012 22:17 Automata wrote:
Could this build be done in vT or even vZ?

can only be done vs a forge fast expand, you could max out on roaches in zvz but it's not as strong as roach + hydra/corruptor/both, and vs terran it's weak vs MMM or Marine/Tank/Medivac, so only vs mech would it be a possibly a good strat
houstil
Profile Joined February 2011
France57 Posts
April 17 2012 15:44 GMT
#219
Vs mech it's definitely feasible. But you have to time the roach warren well to defend hellion harass (much earlier than 7min). Upgrades and creep spread is also a bit more important in tvz vs mech than vs Toss. I saw Losira reach max with the map covered in creep, double upgrades and a 4th base at 13 min. After that it was waves after waves of roach-ling crashing into thors-tanks-hellions in insufficient numbers. A few minutes later the Terran third fell while our zerg hero had greater spire tech, I was quite impressed to say the least.
houstil.678 on EU - banesh.232 on US | friendly master and servant of the swarm
Mario1209
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1077 Posts
April 17 2012 20:23 GMT
#220
tang, i love this build a lot and use it in basically every ZvP. but one thing i'm really having difficulties with is defending 4 gate +1 zealot pressure after an ffe. if you could give me some advice or maybe a replay that would be great. Thanks! love your guides btw.
Co-Manager of Soviet Gaming * http://twitter.com/#!/sGMarioo * http://www.facebook.com/SovietGamingfanpage * https://twitter.com/#!/SovietGaming
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