On April 17 2012 22:07 straycat wrote: Does anyone have a good way to keep track of how many drones that have been made for each base? Or do you just constantly check (ctrl-click for example) the drone count at the nat and the 3rd? I tend to feverishly produce drones and sometimes get oversated for some time on the nat, for example. Maybe it's just something that will resolve once I get more used to the build?
It's all a blur of queens and overlords and drones.... :O
When you are just saturating minerals, a control click is pretty easy to do. After you have 16 per base, when you add gas I manually add 4 more drones to that base. IE saturate main, saturate natural (both rallied to natural) saturate third (all 3 rallied to third), make 2 gasses in main, next drone round shiftclick down to 8 and rally them to the main.
Remaking after losing drones I box a bunch of them, hold shift and box the other side trying to only get drones + queen, then I tell from there.
Tangentially related question for the knowledgable and generous from the hopeful and clueless:
I've been using this build every time my Protoss opponent FFEs - as much for the macro practice as anything. However, quite often I end up facing some variety of 4-gate, which I might only scout after placing the 15 pool, and which may or may not involve a pylon block at my natural. I've been trying to come up with a go-to response, and wanted to run what I've got past people who can actually hold 4-gates reliably.
I open as described in the OP: 15 pool, 16 overlord, 16 queen, 18 lings x 2, with a scout drone at 10. Assuming I see signs of a 4-gate, I proceed as follows:
At this point (when practicing) I assume I'm going to be pylon blocked, and drone while waiting for the lings to spawn and get to the natural. By the time the natural is clear I have pretty much exactly 450 minerals, which I use to make a hatchery and a second queen, sending my first queen down to the natural right away.
I then drone to 25, and build 3 spines at the edge of my main's creep nearest the ramp at 4:40. Then I build a roach warren and take gas. When my second queen spawns I inject at the main and send her down to the natural. Then drones and overlords as appropriate.
The spines finish such that I can reburrow them at the natural by 6:00, and follow up with roaches shortly thereafter. The first queen has enough energy for a transfuse (or a creep tumour so the spines can help push out), with the second queen injecting at the natural.
Is all this even slightly a good idea? It feels ok, but maybe 3 spines is too many. I want them in place in case he brings sentries to block the ramp, and it doesn't seem possible to do that in time without building them while the natural hatch is finishing, particularly after a pylon-delayed expansion.
I tried building just two spines instead of three here, which leaves me with minerals for lings or another queen. Alternatively I could start my gas earlier and be able to make more roaches when the warren pops. Or I could go with the third spine.
On April 17 2012 20:21 Gyoza wrote: Thanks for an awesome guide Tang! I've recently been playing more and more Zerg and might even make a total switch from P to Z since playing Zerg is so much fun!
I've have a question though, when doing this particular build I end up with a surplus of minerals more often than not (sometimes I happen to overdrone so that might be a reason). And then I was watching Stephano himself do this build and he also seemed to have quite a good amount of minerals.
Would it be a bad idea to, in the case of overdroning, to turn those drones to spines/spores and maybe even get more drones for this purpose.. Seeing as I seem to get so much extra minerals?
I'd be more inclined to spend those minerals on a macro hatch and additional overlords, even taking the gases at the 3rd before spines/spores (Unless of course your opponent opens Stargate)
On April 18 2012 10:19 Umpteen wrote: Tangentially related question for the knowledgable and generous from the hopeful and clueless:
I've been using this build every time my Protoss opponent FFEs - as much for the macro practice as anything. However, quite often I end up facing some variety of 4-gate, which I might only scout after placing the 15 pool, and which may or may not involve a pylon block at my natural. I've been trying to come up with a go-to response, and wanted to run what I've got past people who can actually hold 4-gates reliably.
I open as described in the OP: 15 pool, 16 overlord, 16 queen, 18 lings x 2, with a scout drone at 10. Assuming I see signs of a 4-gate, I proceed as follows:
At this point (when practicing) I assume I'm going to be pylon blocked, and drone while waiting for the lings to spawn and get to the natural. By the time the natural is clear I have pretty much exactly 450 minerals, which I use to make a hatchery and a second queen, sending my first queen down to the natural right away.
I then drone to 25, and build 3 spines at the edge of my main's creep nearest the ramp at 4:40. Then I build a roach warren and take gas. When my second queen spawns I inject at the main and send her down to the natural. Then drones and overlords as appropriate.
The spines finish such that I can reburrow them at the natural by 6:00, and follow up with roaches shortly thereafter. The first queen has enough energy for a transfuse (or a creep tumour so the spines can help push out), with the second queen injecting at the natural.
Is all this even slightly a good idea? It feels ok, but maybe 3 spines is too many. I want them in place in case he brings sentries to block the ramp, and it doesn't seem possible to do that in time without building them while the natural hatch is finishing, particularly after a pylon-delayed expansion.
I tried building just two spines instead of three here, which leaves me with minerals for lings or another queen. Alternatively I could start my gas earlier and be able to make more roaches when the warren pops. Or I could go with the third spine.
The first thing I would do when scouting he isn't expanding is start gas, I think zergling speed/spines is always the best response to 1base play. If you reach full 1base saturation and then build an inject of zerglings (Think Sheth's ZvP openings against 1gate FE) then you can use those lings to either deny the proxy pylon or run-by into the main when he moves out. In general though, 2-3 spines and a lot of lines is the best defense against 4gate.
In terms of roaches, I generally don't start my warren until I know I'm safe from the 4gate. My goal when getting roaches against a 1base player isn't to help hold the 4 gate - it's to counter attack later with a roach/ling timing to deny his expansion and win the game. He won't have the necessary sentries to engage a roach/ling army in a cost-efficient battle.
On April 20 2012 01:26 dTox wrote: Great guide Tang. I'm mid-masters Zerg and have been struggling with Protoss since forever. Up until a few days ago i realized i was doing the stephano build wrong lol. Thats what happens when you 'think' you 'know' the build and dont need to see it on paper. Sigh.
Any way. What i want to know is how is the best way to react to chrono'd Zealots streaming towards you as soon as his Gate goes up after FFE? Sometimes they will gather 3-4 Zealots and send them together which really stubs drone production if your forced to make a bunch of lings.
Another question, when he opens 1 Stargate into fast third, what's the best way to react if you fail to deny the 3rd with roach/ling?
Many thanks.
I don't play Z as much as I used to but I think the correct response is spines over units for the zealot scouts/pokes
If you're not canceling his earlier 3rd with Stephano build, you should be taking a 4th behind it/teching to infestors/hive.
On April 20 2012 01:26 dTox wrote: Great guide Tang. I'm mid-masters Zerg and have been struggling with Protoss since forever. Up until a few days ago i realized i was doing the stephano build wrong lol. Thats what happens when you 'think' you 'know' the build and dont need to see it on paper. Sigh.
Any way. What i want to know is how is the best way to react to chrono'd Zealots streaming towards you as soon as his Gate goes up after FFE? Sometimes they will gather 3-4 Zealots and send them together which really stubs drone production if your forced to make a bunch of lings.
Another question, when he opens 1 Stargate into fast third, what's the best way to react if you fail to deny the 3rd with roach/ling?
Many thanks.
If it's only 3-4 zealots, I think you can get away with just slow lings. Nothing wrong with 3-4 extra sets of slow lings and keeping them by your hatchery/queen to handle any 1-gate pressure (2zealot1stalker or 3-4zealots). Shouldn't need a spine or earlier roaches to deal with this, just a few extra lings played defensively and otherwise stick to the steps.
You "should" still be able to deny his 3rd if he opens stargate (even if he has 2-3 voidrays, the DPS is not enough to kill more than 10/15 roaches and you should move in to take it out when it's about 75% complete). If your maxed out roach/ling army can't kill his 3rd and multi-pronged aggression isn't working, you can put down a spire and go mass roach/ling/muta/upgrades with the goal of continuously trade armies until you kill his 3rd OR play a more passive style by taking a 4th, building a lot of spines, and going infestor --> Broodlords. I think the Hive transition is the best though, Muta/Ling/Roach is great but it gets weaker as the game progresses.
On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote: What can toss do to prevent this?
Actually almost nothing
The koreans know how to beat it
Been watching MCs stream lately? If he's the standard to go by, koreans certainly aren't beating this.
Honestly I think there are a lot of viable options for protoss now, between the variety of nice 2base all-ins and heavy robo play. For example TTone crushed me the other day by putting on light pressure with 2zealot1stalker first, then a 4-sentry warp prism drop in the main, followed by a 3rd base with lots of sentry/immortal. Another player beat me with a straight-up 2-robo 8gate all-in with immortals/4-5 colossus and a giant gateway army.
On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote: What can toss do to prevent this?
Actually almost nothing
The koreans know how to beat it
Been watching MCs stream lately? If he's the standard to go by, koreans certainly aren't beating this.
Honestly I think there are a lot of viable options for protoss now, between the variety of nice 2base all-ins and heavy robo play. For example TTone crushed me the other day by putting on light pressure with 2zealot1stalker first, then a 4-sentry warp prism drop in the main, followed by a 3rd base with lots of sentry/immortal. Another player beat me with a straight-up 2-robo 8gate all-in with immortals/4-5 colossus and a giant gateway army.
Its not impossible to win, but it have to be with cheeses, allins, being 10 times better than your opponent, or somehow catching him offguard. There is no "legit" strategy vs zerg that will work every time as long as you play good. Considering the fact that zerg can hold most of these allins with a bit of scouting, and a slight differ in their main build (like earlier roach warren), puts protoss heavily on the backfoot. To further put salt into the wound, this build is so retardedly easy to pull off that myself, who have almost never played zerg, am winning vs other master protosses on my own level with it.
On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote: What can toss do to prevent this?
Actually almost nothing
The koreans know how to beat it
Been watching MCs stream lately? If he's the standard to go by, koreans certainly aren't beating this.
Honestly I think there are a lot of viable options for protoss now, between the variety of nice 2base all-ins and heavy robo play. For example TTone crushed me the other day by putting on light pressure with 2zealot1stalker first, then a 4-sentry warp prism drop in the main, followed by a 3rd base with lots of sentry/immortal. Another player beat me with a straight-up 2-robo 8gate all-in with immortals/4-5 colossus and a giant gateway army.
Its not impossible to win, but it have to be with cheeses, allins, being 10 times better than your opponent, or somehow catching him offguard. There is no "legit" strategy vs zerg that will work every time as long as you play good. Considering the fact that zerg can hold most of these allins with a bit of scouting, and a slight differ in their main build (like earlier roach warren), puts protoss heavily on the backfoot. To further put salt into the wound, this build is so retardedly easy to pull off that myself, who have almost never played zerg, am winning vs other master protosses on my own level with it.
I see what you mean, I just think protoss players have ways of taking a 3rd (admittedly a delayed one) and ways of putting on pressure in the early/mid game to secure small advantages. I don't really think any race should be aiming for a single strategy that works every time.
How does one get that extra minute?! Is it just immaculate drone micro (close patches first, distribution at each expo, etc.)? Edit your guide down to 11 minutes please so I can own toss harder on the ladder :p
How does one get that extra minute?! Is it just immaculate drone micro (close patches first, distribution at each expo, etc.)? Edit your guide down to 11 minutes please so I can own toss harder on the ladder :p
It's really really hard basically, and anyone below GM will struggle greatly to get there. But yes, immaculate drone micro, never ny idle larva, perfect overlord timings, constant "proper' distribution are things that will help you get there. I find it slightly easier with DRG's 3 gas later. Also you need 4 gasses instead of 3, so when you would typically take your 3rd gas, you take your 4th aswell. I'm currently undecided as to whether 4 or 5 gasses is better, 5 you float a tad, 4 you need to make lings, which wastes some larva.
This guide has no "How to react to XYZ" section. And yet there have been very few "How do I deal with X?" questions.
Is everyone having the same experience where as long as they macro well and don't get caught doing something dumb (like getting forcefielded on the wrong side of a ramp), they mostly win?
Is there a Protoss build that some players here just can't figure out how to deal with? I was hoping this thread would eventually turn up some weaknesses in the build as more people would play it and discuss it, but the weaknesses discussion never seemed to materialize. Is it coming?
For game design purposes, it's concerning to me that the guide doesn't discuss major deviations to deal with different Protoss looks, and nobody has yet seen this as problematic. Are major deviations simply not necessary?
On April 23 2012 03:47 kcdc wrote: This guide has no "How to react to XYZ" section. And yet there have been very few "How do I deal with X?" questions.
Is everyone having the same experience where as long as they macro well and don't get caught doing something dumb (like getting forcefielded on the wrong side of a ramp), they mostly win?
Is there a Protoss build that some players here just can't figure out how to deal with? I was hoping this thread would eventually turn up some weaknesses in the build as more people would play it and discuss it, but the weaknesses discussion never seemed to materialize. Is it coming?
For game design purposes, it's concerning to me that the guide doesn't discuss major deviations to deal with different Protoss looks, and nobody has yet seen this as problematic. Are major deviations simply not necessary?
I've used it pretty successfully on ladder, but I've had a decent number of people hold it or disrupt it with early pushes or extremely fast thirds. Great force-fielding on certain maps really destroys roaches too. However it does feel like it works a bit too well. I think we just need to wait a while and see. If they have to change something I have no idea what they could change that would not make TvZ crappy(or change PvT).
Besides the Protoss taking really fast 3rds, a thing that I'm having trouble with is when the Protoss 1 gast expands. When I see a pylon and a gateway warping in on the highground I tend to overreact, getting gas and 4 spines thinking it's gonna be a 4 gate or something. Then when doesn't actually attack or do anything to me and just simply expands, then I go for my 3rd but by then my timings and such are already screwed up and I usually lose.
Another issue is when the Protoss does a Stargate opener and void ray/phoenix harasses me. People always say to counterattack with lots of roaches, which I do but he usually just sends the void ray's back home, warps in stalkers and keeps chronoing out more void rays after which I proceed to lose.
Other than that, I'm pretty successful with this build
EPT
