EPTvs the very easy AI.
While trying to copy his timings.
D:
[G] Stephano-Style ZvP – The 12 Minute Max-Out - Page 10
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LazinCajun
United States294 Posts
vs the very easy AI. While trying to copy his timings. D: | ||
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kiklion
99 Posts
On April 13 2012 00:54 00Visor wrote: I think thats right. 11 Overpool is only a bit behind in eco. Problem is the amount of lings you make. Its not a big eco risk, he still won most games, but I think its unnecessary. It probably depends on the map, but if you are confidant in your multitasking, you can tax the other persons multitasking as well as do damage. An 11 overpool vs nexus first should always do some significant damage. I personally prefer 11 overpool on maps with rocks at the third (or between nat and third) so that worst case scenario, you send the lings back and start taking down those rocks to help prepare against the 2 base attack. Even if they went pylon forge cannon, you can usually force an early double gateway to full wall or a probe pull to save the cannon. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On April 13 2012 00:59 Snute wrote: Heres another 11min example, this time maxed out at 11:01. i wonder who can bring it to 10:40 first (edit: if not like 10:25-30) xD DL: http://drop.sc/158539 + Show Spoiler [replay comments] + major shortcuts: - blind 3rd base - skipped lingspeed - skipped detection - ignoring incoming 8min pressure (lucky cancel in this rep) room for improvement? - fewer drones and 4gas instead of 5, will it hit max sooner? more safe either way - a bit late 5gas for the amount of drones. - macrohatch could even be a 4th, maybe its not needed in the first place with lower drone count? - get detection in for the build to remain legit and transitionable - slight saturation balance obviously It's really braindead but works wonders. Hopefully zergs will be able to optimize 3-4base 4gas mass roach a bit more so we can see some truly crisp timings, and hopefully will P find ways to at the very least survive in those cases where 8min-pressure is not applied. Good luck everyone! looking forward to the development Well, not to be disrespectful, but you maxed out with 53 roaches only. I fed the build into a build order optimizer and according to his computations, you can hit 53 roaches with 2 base play (47 drones, no macro hatch, 3 gas) a minute earlier (from experience: you won't be able to hit computed times, but 10'15 to 10'30 is not a problem). In general the software calculates with way fewer drones (50..60 depending on roach target count) and tends to take the third (only if target >54 roaches) much later. It also gets only 2 queens. Thinking about it, it makes sense as you save money for drones, supply, hatches and queens. 1 queen = 2 roaches, 1 hatch ~4,5 roaches. Of course you need to be able to retain the pressure with reenforcements, but even with a 50..60 drone economy you'll be able to pump a reasonable amount of reenforcing roaches. In general i think we should not look for the max out, but also for the number of roaches@time. A 90 drone eco with 4 queens squeezing out a 40 roach army won't cut it :-) Edit: 3 hatch, 3 queen, 60 roaches (7'30 warren + evo finished) optimum: 63 drones (~10'30). 190 supply. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On April 12 2012 21:04 jax1 wrote: players play so fucking stupid against him. the first thing they should do is going stargate then he have to change up alot. He badly beat the two players that went stargate against him with this exact build so I'm pretty sure it's not just that everyone plays so "fucking stupid" against him. | ||
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wolfenage
9 Posts
On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote: What can toss do to prevent this? The popular metagame at this point (from a macro perspective) is for Toss to do FFE and for zerg to do 3 base roach/ling (duh). As a zerg player, let me tell you that in order to max out like stephano does you really have to play perfect. So to answer your question "what can toss do to prevent this?" is to just apply tons and tons of pressure. Dont let zerg get that third base. Or force zerg to make tons of lings when they want to make drones. You can do this by opening 2 gate +1 zealot pressure with a proxy pylon. You can open up stargate and force spores which equals wasted drones. Every little thing you do has a big effect on the zerg's macro. Hell, if a zerg player builds an ovie too early or gets supply blocked at any point will effectively lower his benchmark supply. So in essence if you force units instead of drones, force your opponent to miss injects/ ovie production, or anything around those lines is effectively preventing this. You can easily delay a zerg from hitting his benchmarks if you keep at it. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:05 goswser wrote: As soon as people start competently executing strong allins against him (double robo immortal, 8 gate) hes going to start losing games. Your opinion. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 13 2012 00:09 The_Darkness wrote: Yesterday, Stephano also hit 192/200 at 12:00 after losing his third to cannons, which is freaking ridiculous. He even built 8-10 early lings and harassed the Protoss for a good portion of the early game, killing several probes. How did he respond to losing his 3rd? I played an interesting game today where protoss cannon rushed my 3rd: http://drop.sc/158796 My response was just to expand to the gold immediately and try to keep the rest of the timings the same. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On April 13 2012 09:42 TangSC wrote: How did he respond to losing his 3rd? I played an interesting game today where protoss cannon rushed my 3rd: http://drop.sc/158796 My response was just to expand to the gold immediately and try to keep the rest of the timings the same. He expanded to the 3 o'clock base on Korhal. He spawned at the 1-2 o'clock base. He's been taking a fourth gas right around the time he takes a third and getting a macro hatch, so he's slightly tweaked the build described in the OP and it seems better than ever (which has to be very scary for P). The game is in his stream session from two days ago. (I'm sure somewhere here could cite to it more precisely.) Edit: Everything else he did seemed pretty much the same from what I recall - gas timings, etc., so it didn't really affect his build from what I recall. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:05 goswser wrote: As soon as people start competently executing strong allins against him (double robo immortal, 8 gate) hes going to start losing games. 8 gate sure, but double robo immortal can be beat if you scout reasonably well and opt to not make pure roach. Ling/Infestor and Ling/Muta can be pretty effective in those situations and you can easily afford that with the production. Double Robo Immortal can't really be afforded without cutting a lot of corners, meaning fewer sentries/stalkers and no blink. I agree that there are probably some strong all-ins that people just aren't considering. I also find it odd how few people seem to use such builds against Stephano, while most other zergs (Nestea, Lucky, DRG) have been struggling against them. It's especially important that Stephano cuts tons of corners and doesn't really scout a lot in particular, which makes him particularly vulnerable. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
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HighLach
United States132 Posts
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kiklion
99 Posts
On April 13 2012 14:01 BoZiffer wrote: Do you think this will eventually force P back into the 1/3 Gate Expo? I know that NoNy has been very vocal about his distaste for the Forge FFE. I think so. I still see toss beating zerg going FFE vs double hatch before gas, but it is usually because of a mistake the zerg made. I am bad with map names but, for instance, zerg doesn't keep a ling at toss third, toss gets third up and walled off with gateways/cannons/sentries. Zerg needs to prepare for a quick transition, if you suicide up either ramp too fast they just counter and you can't defend. I have seen zergs lose because they don't prepare or react correctly against air. Also some maps don't allow for a fast third, so play needs to adapt for them, or the middle is still filled with chokes and roaches aren't effective. However, typically I feel as if zerg lost those games, not that toss won it. The zerg didn't scout or react correctly, and they had the means to. | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:05 goswser wrote: As soon as people start competently executing strong allins against him (double robo immortal, 8 gate) hes going to start losing games. Double immo hits too late. He will be maxed, attack when toss leaves base, remax attack again attack again at home, easy hold. 8gate is jsut a matter of starting to make roaches in time, not really important whta type of roach-build you do imo. I don't think Stephano will lose if he plays well ever. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
On April 13 2012 14:01 BoZiffer wrote: Do you think this will eventually force P back into the 1/3 Gate Expo? I know that NoNy has been very vocal about his distaste for the Forge FFE. I have been playing with 1 gate expo and it has been going really well. The only times I lose is when I move out w/ sentries when he has speed and I forget he had it. | ||
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how
United States538 Posts
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On April 14 2012 02:19 -MoOsE- wrote: I have been playing with 1 gate expo and it has been going really well. The only times I lose is when I move out w/ sentries when he has speed and I forget he had it. Just curious, about what time are moving out at? | ||
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
In my opinion, at least. | ||
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Fliparoni
205 Posts
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