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[G] Stephano-Style ZvP – The 12 Minute Max-Out - Page 19

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
September 03 2012 18:55 GMT
#361
I just learned the hard way that not eventually getting a spire can really, really hurt if the game drags on.

Once there are enough void rays on the field, it becomes a stalemate where he can't attack the creep and the roaches can't deny expansions anymore.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
September 04 2012 04:02 GMT
#362
On September 04 2012 03:55 yevoc wrote:
I just learned the hard way that not eventually getting a spire can really, really hurt if the game drags on.

Once there are enough void rays on the field, it becomes a stalemate where he can't attack the creep and the roaches can't deny expansions anymore.

Usually if you can keep Protoss contained to two bases long enough, you can continue trading roaches off of your three-base economy until you win. If he's still on two-bases by 11-12minutes, you should be pretty relentless with your roaches, knowing that you have the saturation behind it to continue reinforcing, and he won't be able to match production. Still, it's not a bad idea to squeeze out those extra 8-10 drones to take the additional 2 geysers and a spire (once you've successfully denied the third), mixing in corruptors with your roaches will keep his voidray/colossus below a critical number.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TheOnlyRedViper
Profile Joined September 2012
Norway20 Posts
October 19 2012 17:20 GMT
#363
First of all, I must say that this is a very high quality guide, which compliments the other material concerning this style really well. As of late I have been have some issues with the protosses taking their early third seems to hold this kind of aggression better and better. But I still have great success with it against 2 base play .
Do you have the same experience or I'm I off?
The cool thing, I think is that you can do the opening then choose if you want to play the max out style or something else, and still utilizing the potential power of a 11:00-11:30 maxout vs an array of protoss all ins.
What are your thoughts about the style in the present "metagame" ?
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
October 20 2012 08:51 GMT
#364
The first 8 minutes are incredibly standard no matter what you do in ZvP. The timings the pros use may change slightly, but you can definitely go 6:00 2x gas, 7:00 RW + Evo, 7:30 Lair and then go into whatever you like, such as muta-ling, ling-infestor, etc. The maxout style only really starts at the 8-minute mark when you pump OLs and Roaches: Before that, it's about 95% standard macro ZvP.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
October 20 2012 09:52 GMT
#365
On October 20 2012 17:51 Salivanth wrote:
The first 8 minutes are incredibly standard no matter what you do in ZvP. The timings the pros use may change slightly, but you can definitely go 6:00 2x gas, 7:00 RW + Evo, 7:30 Lair and then go into whatever you like, such as muta-ling, ling-infestor, etc. The maxout style only really starts at the 8-minute mark when you pump OLs and Roaches: Before that, it's about 95% standard macro ZvP.


The gas and lair timings in standard ZvP were defined by this opening though, not copied by it
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 18 2012 18:34 GMT
#366
On October 20 2012 02:20 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:
The cool thing, I think is that you can do the opening then choose if you want to play the max out style or something else, and still utilizing the potential power of a 11:00-11:30 maxout vs an array of protoss all ins.
What are your thoughts about the style in the present "metagame" ?

More players are steering towards mutalisks when Protoss takes a third, by taking a fourth and immediately moving up to 6 gas. It's rare to see top-tier players still maxing out on Roaches in response to a third nexus, the Roach-max is more used to hold off 2-base all-ins.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Infocus
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada31 Posts
November 19 2012 04:40 GMT
#367
On November 19 2012 03:34 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 02:20 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:
The cool thing, I think is that you can do the opening then choose if you want to play the max out style or something else, and still utilizing the potential power of a 11:00-11:30 maxout vs an array of protoss all ins.
What are your thoughts about the style in the present "metagame" ?

More players are steering towards mutalisks when Protoss takes a third, by taking a fourth and immediately moving up to 6 gas. It's rare to see top-tier players still maxing out on Roaches in response to a third nexus, the Roach-max is more used to hold off 2-base all-ins.


O.o
I always thought that the roach max was designed to deny a 3rd base and so was very good against failed 2 base all ins, Aren't most 2 base all ins designed to hit before the production cycle of your 4/5 hatch + injects really come into play?
My ZvZ mentality " My muta micro is better than your muta micro "
naggerNZ
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand708 Posts
November 19 2012 07:08 GMT
#368
On November 19 2012 13:40 Infocus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 03:34 TangSC wrote:
On October 20 2012 02:20 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:
The cool thing, I think is that you can do the opening then choose if you want to play the max out style or something else, and still utilizing the potential power of a 11:00-11:30 maxout vs an array of protoss all ins.
What are your thoughts about the style in the present "metagame" ?

More players are steering towards mutalisks when Protoss takes a third, by taking a fourth and immediately moving up to 6 gas. It's rare to see top-tier players still maxing out on Roaches in response to a third nexus, the Roach-max is more used to hold off 2-base all-ins.


O.o
I always thought that the roach max was designed to deny a 3rd base and so was very good against failed 2 base all ins, Aren't most 2 base all ins designed to hit before the production cycle of your 4/5 hatch + injects really come into play?


The prevalence of Immortal/Sentry openers in combination with closer thirds and Protoss players adapting to the heavy Roach max style with more careful forcefield use and walling off open sections of their third means that the chance of denying a third has decreased significantly.

It's basically been almost made obsolete by rapid Hive tech timings and mutalisk play. We may see a resurgence of aggressive mid-game unit compositions, however, as Korean Protoss players have started to figure out extremely strong Pre-Hive attack timings off of three bases (look at most of Rain's ZvPs on Daybreak from BWC to know exactly what I'm talking about).

I'm imagining a transition to heavily upgraded Roach/Ling/Infestor/Corrupter compositions until Zerg is on 5bases with 10 gas geysers operational as becoming the next step in the metagame.
vahgar.r24
Profile Joined October 2010
India465 Posts
May 16 2013 12:52 GMT
#369
Will this work in hots ? The only deterrent would be a MsC who can overcharge at best ?
Somethings are just worth fighting for
PHXerxes
Profile Joined April 2013
Germany8 Posts
May 16 2013 13:00 GMT
#370
i don´t think that this style isn´t possible in hots anymore at high lvl
not only the msc is new
voidrays so incredible strong against like everything what the zerg got and hydras with the buff are just much stronger than the roaches , i think mass lings are now better than ling roach style (i´m protoss and got more problems against mass lings than roach ling)
Banorac
Profile Joined March 2013
Belgium2 Posts
May 16 2013 13:01 GMT
#371
The opening is still somewhat valid, but the getting pure roach part has become somewhat obsolete, much like this thread.

Considering the last reply was from november 2012, that should have given you a hint.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 16 2013 13:50 GMT
#372
On May 16 2013 22:01 Banorac wrote:
The opening is still somewhat valid, but the getting pure roach part has become somewhat obsolete, much like this thread.

Considering the last reply was from november 2012, that should have given you a hint.

Well the opening has changed a bit, but I don't think pure roach is obsolete - in fact, I think it's still one of the stronger approaches to mid-game ZvP - especially with the effective hydra transitions.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
The_Unseen
Profile Joined March 2011
France1923 Posts
May 16 2013 14:11 GMT
#373
How would you know Tang? You only cheese on ladder, and not that well either
I got five reasons for you to shut up
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
May 16 2013 14:13 GMT
#374
On May 16 2013 22:50 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 22:01 Banorac wrote:
The opening is still somewhat valid, but the getting pure roach part has become somewhat obsolete, much like this thread.

Considering the last reply was from november 2012, that should have given you a hint.

Well the opening has changed a bit, but I don't think pure roach is obsolete - in fact, I think it's still one of the stronger approaches to mid-game ZvP - especially with the effective hydra transitions.


Additionally, on many ladder maps holding the third is a nightmare for the Protoss so yeah, while this build may be outdated, lair tech bust remain extremely effective.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 16 2013 18:01 GMT
#375
On May 16 2013 23:13 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 22:50 TangSC wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:01 Banorac wrote:
The opening is still somewhat valid, but the getting pure roach part has become somewhat obsolete, much like this thread.

Considering the last reply was from november 2012, that should have given you a hint.

Well the opening has changed a bit, but I don't think pure roach is obsolete - in fact, I think it's still one of the stronger approaches to mid-game ZvP - especially with the effective hydra transitions.


Additionally, on many ladder maps holding the third is a nightmare for the Protoss so yeah, while this build may be outdated, lair tech bust remain extremely effective.

Yeah that's really true some of the the new maps, even on Akilon wastes (which seems like an easier third behind the rocks) the natural ramp is HUGE and tough for Toss to defend.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
ManiacTheZealot
Profile Joined December 2009
United States490 Posts
May 16 2013 19:39 GMT
#376
With the meta game shifting to 2 base colossus timings I think it's very viable. Put double evo's down in front of your base so he sees them. That might be enough to get him to go 2 base colossus. You don't even have to use them. Immortal sentry timings have fallen out of style.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 21:34:22
May 16 2013 21:32 GMT
#377
Yeah Immo/Sentry is less common but can still be held with Stephano-style in most cases. I like your double-evo meta-game, just make sure you're doing it against opponents sophisticated enough to make that kind of read lol don't wanna fall victim to "fancy play syndrome"
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
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