EPT[G] Stephano-Style ZvP – The 12 Minute Max-Out - Page 17
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Chelch
United Kingdom159 Posts
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Linog[e]
59 Posts
On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote: What can toss do to prevent this? i think kiwikaki or nani (dunno) says dt s | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
Really? With such an early lair, I don't see how DTs are the answer. Most players will scout the expansion gas and know they need some form of detection, and a lot of Zergs morph an overseer to scout when the lair is done. | ||
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Supert0fu
United States499 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On May 13 2012 22:47 TangSC wrote: Really? With such an early lair, I don't see how DTs are the answer. Most players will scout the expansion gas and know they need some form of detection, and a lot of Zergs morph an overseer to scout when the lair is done. I remember Axslav saying that you deal with this by having good mechanics, force field, and an mix of stalker sentry with a few immortals. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On May 13 2012 22:47 TangSC wrote: Really? With such an early lair, I don't see how DTs are the answer. Most players will scout the expansion gas and know they need some form of detection, and a lot of Zergs morph an overseer to scout when the lair is done. ^ this. I think the gas at P's natural would be a dead give-away that DT is on the way. Also we could just as easily stick 1 spore at each base if we suspected such play. Not a huge hit to the economy and we can still play the same style while you invested a lot into dt rushing which doesn't do any serious damage. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:17 Chelch wrote: People say that players like Sage have figured this style out, and yet I've seen Sage, Lure, Weekend, and many other Protoss players all get destroyed by this style in the Korean Weekly. mostly because when the zerg is attacking the pressure is mostly on the protoss to defend well. in this specific situation it is much easier to be on the attacking end than the defending end. in this particular scenario, zerg isn't looking to trade efficiently and can be relatively careless with their units compared to protoss, which needs to play much more perfect. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 30 2012 11:57 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I remember Axslav saying that you deal with this by having good mechanics, force field, and an mix of stalker sentry with a few immortals. Yeah basically this, good positioning,wall off third with gateways and cannons,etc,spliting off army to prevent multi-pronged attacks. However, i have seen Symbol do a variation of this build where he go for drops at the main and do a attack at the third. He completely smashed MC with that build. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On May 30 2012 11:58 sCCrooked wrote: ^ this. I think the gas at P's natural would be a dead give-away that DT is on the way. Also we could just as easily stick 1 spore at each base if we suspected such play. Not a huge hit to the economy and we can still play the same style while you invested a lot into dt rushing which doesn't do any serious damage. Yeah either DTs or double stargate. A common response to both is a spore at the natural and 3rd. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
On May 30 2012 12:02 Falcon-sw wrote: I've seen +2 blink stalkers at around 10 minutes destroy pro zergs using this strategy. Blink is just too cost effective if you have good micro. You mean the timing attack? I always feel that all in is really weak. If it gets crushed with lings and a few roaches early then you're basically dead. See Jangbi vs Soulkey in proleague. Jangbi literally had perfect blink micro, but it got crushed. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On May 30 2012 12:02 Falcon-sw wrote: I've seen +2 blink stalkers at around 10 minutes destroy pro zergs using this strategy. Blink is just too cost effective if you have good micro. Problem with this is you're just crossing your fingers and hoping you don't get fungled. If they land just 1 or 2 fungals, you loose the game. You will never be able to take a 3rd after you loose a ball of stalkers at that time. I was doing early zealot aggression to slow things down for the zerg, but because of the queen buff it's just not viable. The queen can just hide behind the mineral line and pick off zealots with a few drones blocking, while lings are made. I am starting to really dislike pvz nowadays. So many people are using this style, all protoss can do against it is 2 base all in or turtle and 3 base all in. Either way you are playing from behind, and if the zerg scouts properly they can prepare and defend either play. They will have hive tech by the time your 3 base play hits anyway. It's also very hard to know if the zerg is about to all in you, well I shouldn't say "all in" I guess. With this style zerg can afford to throw away an entire army to deny the protoss 3rd but it doesn't put them all in. They can remake the army before you get across the map because they are already on 3 fully saturated bases. It really feels like you have to count on zerg making blunders or just having bad scouting. It's not really a balance issue, you have a fair chance at winning with a 2 or 3 base all in as protoss. What I really don't like is that you can only expect your odds to get worse after that point. Playing into the late game against a zerg on hive tech, who's been ahead on econ the whole game isn't fun. At that point you're hoping on an archon toilet to win, and hoping the zerg is incompetent enough to stack all his units for a vortex. I used to really enjoy those epic split map wars of positioning, tech switches, and late game harass. Rarely, if ever, get games like that anymore. | ||
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MegaFonzie
Australia1084 Posts
On May 31 2012 02:22 Reborn8u wrote: Problem with this is you're just crossing your fingers and hoping you don't get fungled. If they land just 1 or 2 fungals, you loose the game. You will never be able to take a 3rd after you loose a ball of stalkers at that time. I was doing early zealot aggression to slow things down for the zerg, but because of the queen buff it's just not viable. The queen can just hide behind the mineral line and pick off zealots with a few drones blocking, while lings are made. I am starting to really dislike pvz nowadays. So many people are using this style, all protoss can do against it is 2 base all in or turtle and 3 base all in. Either way you are playing from behind, and if the zerg scouts properly they can prepare and defend either play. They will have hive tech by the time your 3 base play hits anyway. It's also very hard to know if the zerg is about to all in you, well I shouldn't say "all in" I guess. With this style zerg can afford to throw away an entire army to deny the protoss 3rd but it doesn't put them all in. They can remake the army before you get across the map because they are already on 3 fully saturated bases. It really feels like you have to count on zerg making blunders or just having bad scouting. It's not really a balance issue, you have a fair chance at winning with a 2 or 3 base all in as protoss. What I really don't like is that you can only expect your odds to get worse after that point. Playing into the late game against a zerg on hive tech, who's been ahead on econ the whole game isn't fun. At that point you're hoping on an archon toilet to win, and hoping the zerg is incompetent enough to stack all his units for a vortex. I used to really enjoy those epic split map wars of positioning, tech switches, and late game harass. Rarely, if ever, get games like that anymore. I used to have the same problem, then I ripped a fast 3rd build straight out of Puzzle's playbook to safely get into a macro game before starting to pump out speed prisms and high templar like a madman and playing a heavy harassment style. Just saying that this match up doesn't have to be stale, as long as you're creative, pvz can still be fun as hell vs styles like this. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
Overall what he says is obvious (look aggressive so zerg builds too many attack units before droning up) but the whole explanation is still very useful thanks! | ||
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synonix
United States10 Posts
On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote: What can toss do to prevent this? FFE into 5 gate zealot proxy pylon on the 3rd (OR 4 gate robo prism drop if you wanna be more save about the z not finding your pylon)... focus all zeals on killing the 3rd... congrats ur now ahead... now use ur mad amounts of vespane to make tons of sentrys AT YOUR BASE after the 1st wave of forward zeals and make a robo and twilight either 2 base colossus push or take fast 3rd for the econ haul. i saw minigun using this and wrecking Z all day | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On May 31 2012 02:49 synonix wrote: FFE into 5 gate zealot proxy pylon on the 3rd (OR 4 gate robo prism drop if you wanna be more save about the z not finding your pylon)... focus all zeals on killing the 3rd... congrats ur now ahead... now use ur mad amounts of vespane to make tons of sentrys AT YOUR BASE after the 1st wave of forward zeals and make a robo and twilight either 2 base colossus push or take fast 3rd for the econ haul. i saw minigun using this and wrecking Z all day zerg must be playing super super bad if he lets one wave of zealot kill his 3rd even if protoss keeps warping units the entire time at the front zerg should not lose the 3rd to a 4 or 5 gate. | ||
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Yipsta
United Kingdom40 Posts
True that! | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On May 31 2012 02:35 MegaFonzie wrote: I used to have the same problem, then I ripped a fast 3rd build straight out of Puzzle's playbook to safely get into a macro game before starting to pump out speed prisms and high templar like a madman and playing a heavy harassment style. Just saying that this match up doesn't have to be stale, as long as you're creative, pvz can still be fun as hell vs styles like this. Can you elaborate on that one please? Sounds fun  | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On May 31 2012 02:49 synonix wrote: FFE into 5 gate zealot proxy pylon on the 3rd (OR 4 gate robo prism drop if you wanna be more save about the z not finding your pylon)... focus all zeals on killing the 3rd... congrats ur now ahead... now use ur mad amounts of vespane to make tons of sentrys AT YOUR BASE after the 1st wave of forward zeals and make a robo and twilight either 2 base colossus push or take fast 3rd for the econ haul. i saw minigun using this and wrecking Z all day Most times you won't be able to focus the 3rd down, but sometimes forcing Zerg to produce earlier roaches (before they've reached 3base saturation) can be all the damage you need. | ||
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obipam
United States15 Posts
This post was very useful to me.  I'm still learning the build, but I've noticed a few things that were counterintuitive for me as a low-level player in earlier sessions. These details help me remember the timings - maybe they'll help other people too!• A drone is sent out for the third when the first queen finishes. • The first queen doesn't immediately transfer. Instead, she injects once, drops a creep tumor, and THEN transfers. In this way, drones are delayed so that the third goes down more quickly. • 2 gas begin when the main and natural are both fully saturated (16 drones each). • The third gas beings when lair begins to pay for lair tech. (You mentioned this). • The roach/evo 7:00 timing is there to account for stargate and 6gate pressure. The evolution chamber won't begin +1 until you begin making roaches. So it'll sit there for about 45 seconds, just chilling. My instinct was to start +1 immediately, but you don't have enough roaches that way. Unless you see a stargate, maybe? • The fourth geyser begins when roach production begins to pay for roaches. Thanks again Tang! | ||
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