EPT[G] Stephano-Style ZvP – The 12 Minute Max-Out - Page 18
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On June 15 2012 05:51 9-BiT wrote: At a low level do you think this increases good play? would it be okay to use it in all 3 matchups? At a low level anything goes. So I could owkr in all MUs. But it is a zvp build. And yes, any build will increase your level of play. When you already know what to do, you can spend more mental resources on executing, instead of thinking = faster play. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 15 2012 05:51 9-BiT wrote: At a low level do you think this increases good play? would it be okay to use it in all 3 matchups? I don't think it would be best for lower-level players to do this in every matchup. In ZvZ for example, if you're taking that fast of a 3rd and going for 60 drones before roaches, you're just going to die too often. BUT you could always have the eventual goal of reaching full 3base saturation with 4 gas and a macro hatch, and using that as your mid-game plan for all matchups. | ||
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89vision
United States70 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 21 2012 14:01 89vision wrote: Yea definitely not for ZvZ. Just too risky. You can do the same thing in ZvT and ZvP up to diamond in most cases. The fast third in ZvT its a little sketchy even at low levels, but you could get away with a macro 3rd hatch and go heavy roach aggression. One thing you can do for ZvT is just get the warren around 5:30/6:00 and just 4-6 roaches out so you can secure your third. From there you could move into the roach max-out. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 15 2012 05:51 9-BiT wrote: At a low level do you think this increases good play? would it be okay to use it in all 3 matchups? I think the most important thing at lower levels is to "have a plan" But yes most things will help you improve as long as you start adjusting when things seem to not work anymore. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:51 Clarity_nl wrote: I think the most important thing at lower levels is to "have a plan" But yes most things will help you improve as long as you start adjusting when things seem to not work anymore. I agree that the most important thing is having a plan. Day9 always talked about the importance of a "mid-game" plan and it's so true. What you really need to do is set an ideal for economy, an army/upgrade composition, and a strategy/plan. So with this style of roaches, the mid-game plan is 60 drones, roaches with speed and +1, used to deny the protoss third. This idea of defining an economy/army/strategy can and should be used in all matchups though. | ||
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Jugulle
Canada4 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On July 11 2012 17:42 Jugulle wrote: Thanks Tang I've been looking for this guide again and I haven't been playing lately but hopefully with this I'll be able to refine my ZvP once again to where it was a few months ago. I hope so too. The biggest thing to remember (aside from the timings/build) is to scout Protoss expansion gas at the 6:30-7:00 mark. If he's taken the gas, you should feel comfortable to drone up past the 60s of supply and go lair first. If he hasn't taken the gas, you should stop producing drones around 54 supply, get zergling speed and overlords, and produce units in preparation for either 4-gate zealot pressure or a 6-8 gate all-in. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On August 10 2012 19:37 Salivanth wrote: Apparently the standard for maxing out on Roach-Ling is 11:30 now, not 12:00. What adjustments can I make to the build to try and hit that timing? Also, I've been using DRG's triple gas at 6:30 instead of double gas at 6:00: Do you reckon this is a good idea? Does it require me to change subsequent timings much if I do this? Yah you can actually do it around 11 minutes as well. You just need to reach full saturation at all 3 bases ASAP, with the macro hatch around 8 minutes. No supply blocks, no missed injects, no larva over 3. I think the DRG gas timing works out to be the same. I know DRG likes to get a big round of lings pretty early (50s/60s) to deny pylons, but otherwise I think he keeps the timings the same. | ||
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blawed
11 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On August 11 2012 13:26 blawed wrote: tang, why did you make another account to reply to your own thread? I would not risk insult to TL community or mods, after they've given me so much. | ||
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uNiQuEDouG
1 Post
But to be honest. Some people say that the roach maxout really isn't a good build these days. I just feel like many protoss can defend it easily at my level (mid-high diamond). I feel like they just throw down a 2nd robo and pump out more immortals. Therefore, i rarely do the roach MAX out, rather i just make a decent amount of roach ling to defend, (maybe poke his third a bit) i grab that quick fourth and spine up while teching to infestor brood lord. I use the beginning of your build as my standard ZvP macro build though and i thank you tons for that. But is making the second overlord at 58 sound like a good idea? Thanks. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On August 23 2012 12:24 uNiQuEDouG wrote: Hi, i was just reading the recent posts and i was wondering if it would be a good idea to make two overlords at 58 instead of one. The reasoning behind this would be that you benchmark 78 supply of drones (with 2 lings and 2 queens) by the 8 minute mark instead of 70 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if you only make one overlord at 58. You barely squeeze those drones out right at around 7:55 but isn't this a better benchmarks? The higher supply at 8 minutes the better right? Therefore, i proceeded with the build maxing out at 12 minutes with 70 drones instead of 60 just because of that extra overlord. Maybe this delays the maxout by like 5 seconds but isn't it worth it? Also, as you were saying about the new 11 minute maxout i was thinking about making the macro hatch right after the 78 supply... I'd have to test it, not sure how one overlord makes the difference of 10 extra drones though. For the earliest maxout possible, you start the macro hatch and +1 around 8:00 (you should be at 60~ drones) | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
even if i take all of my gasses and my 4th i dont have enough time to get broods/infestors out in time. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
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HoMM
Estonia635 Posts
On August 23 2012 12:24 uNiQuEDouG wrote: Hi, i was just reading the recent posts and i was wondering if it would be a good idea to make two overlords at 58 instead of one. The reasoning behind this would be that you benchmark 78 supply of drones (with 2 lings and 2 queens) by the 8 minute mark instead of 70 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if you only make one overlord at 58. You barely squeeze those drones out right at around 7:55 but isn't this a better benchmarks? The higher supply at 8 minutes the better right? Therefore, i proceeded with the build maxing out at 12 minutes with 70 drones instead of 60 just because of that extra overlord. Maybe this delays the maxout by like 5 seconds but isn't it worth it? Also, as you were saying about the new 11 minute maxout i was thinking about making the macro hatch right after the 78 supply... But to be honest. Some people say that the roach maxout really isn't a good build these days. I just feel like many protoss can defend it easily at my level (mid-high diamond). I feel like they just throw down a 2nd robo and pump out more immortals. Therefore, i rarely do the roach MAX out, rather i just make a decent amount of roach ling to defend, (maybe poke his third a bit) i grab that quick fourth and spine up while teching to infestor brood lord. I use the beginning of your build as my standard ZvP macro build though and i thank you tons for that. But is making the second overlord at 58 sound like a good idea? Thanks. It depends on the situation, I've seen many korean zergs hit 75 supply at 8:00 but it wont increase your mineral income by a lot in this buildorder and is probably better if you play a bit more standard. ' In addition, if you are gonna max out at 200/200 you'd much rather have less drones anyway. (so 64 is better than 72) That's at least my observation.  On August 25 2012 19:16 Ballistixz wrote: just curious but how do u transition OUT of this build for the lategame? for example lest assume the toss has perfect FFs and holds the roach ling aggression perfectly and there is not much of anything you can do to break him. how do u transition out of this build after being on roaches for so long? it seems like after that point the toss has a very clear cut advantage and a huge window to push with the traditional deathball. even if i take all of my gasses and my 4th i dont have enough time to get broods/infestors out in time. If the protoss will push at the timing before your broodlords, you need to crush his push with good use of spines+infestors+corruptors(if u scout colo). I wouldn't try to save up too much for broodlords and invest all you've got into just stuff that would help you win the battle. If you win this big battle, you will be in charge of the game again and will be easily to reach broodlords. The most important thing is realising the protoss is well defended as soon as you can, to prepare your transistion as soon as possible. If your infestation pit is too delayed, your hive is too delayed, and this will hurt you. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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