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On May 01 2012 05:04 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 02:17 MorroW wrote:On April 26 2012 02:54 Borkbokbork wrote:
I love this but I think it's really sad that the game has devolved into maxing out on one unit and attacking. relax this shouldnt actually work. as i said earlier its just a showcase of using a zerg drone advantage to put it only into brute force and just pushing to win u can do the same for any race really, if you great damage with protoss in midgame and get big enough advantage you can make pure blink stalkers for the rest of the game to just win this game develops in the right way and people are finding more playstyles and using more and more unit compositions. this max out on roaches is nothing new and people did it long before stephano was famous You might be right that this roach spam won't continue to work as well as it's working right now. But it might also turn out to be over-powered. We don't know yet. All we know is that it's a very strong build and despite significant effort, Protoss players have not yet agreed on how to beat it.
Well, Morrow just said that the Koreans have no trouble beating it and that Sage holds his third extremely easily (Code B Protoss). Considering you have the best macroers in the world in KR, you would expect this build to see some use but I barely ever see it in GSL or ESV. Nestea maxes with 70 drones, 4 bases, +1, burrow and spire at 11:30, yet he sparingly uses this build.
The build is just the ultimate punisher for people who can't pressure and expand, impose map dominance and scare the Zerg. Slow roaches and slow lings cannot do anything but defend. So warp in +1 zealots and retreat. Terran players feign tank pushes vs speedling baneling, clear creep and leave. 2 rax's entire ideology is to pressure. You can make 7 marines and do nothing but wonder around the map after the bunker rush fails. Zergs will sometimes make up to 25 lings just to be safe vs followup marine scv all ins.
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On May 02 2012 07:16 Micket wrote:
Nestea maxes with 70 drones, 4 bases, +1, burrow and spire at 11:30, yet he sparingly uses this build.
Wow thats pretty amazing, could you send a replay or video? I really wanna steal it XD
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I've found that the best way to be aggressive with your units is to grab drop tech. After you've maxed, dropped your 4th base, and gotten your 4th extractor, you can squeeze in the cost of this tech quite easily. Protoss players seem to have a LOT of trouble with multi-pronged attacks, and I would say the majority of the time I've been able to do a lot of damage to their infrastructure and economy by timing my drop as soon as he moves out to take his third base. The best part is, if you drop enough roaches in his main, you can force him to bring his entire army back to defend leaving his third bare for you to snipe it again with a small handful of units. With burrow and tunnelling claws you can try to hide units in the corner of his base for sneak attacks later on when he thinks he's safe, which is also a great delay tactic if he looks to be moving out.
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this has helped me so much. thank you so much! it even has been working for me when toss doesnt ffe. then again i am only a silver player
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Are there any replays of this style done perfectly? I like watching replays far more then I like streams.
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Hi.
I've been away from SC2 for a few months and managed to miss the rise of Stephano's build over FFE.
Can someone please tell me what is the current metagame around it? Esp. concerning Plat/Dia league? I see lots of Protosses complaining about Roaches on the official forums, which I guess means the build is still alive and kicking, but then again if now every Zerg and his grandmother does this it would alse be logical that Tosses have adapted. And I kinda hate coming late to the party.. 
So.. should I be learning this or would I be better off with some other shennanigans, like faking it and going muta or something? Thanks!
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On May 04 2012 22:55 baba44713 wrote:Hi. I've been away from SC2 for a few months and managed to miss the rise of Stephano's build over FFE. Can someone please tell me what is the current metagame around it? Esp. concerning Plat/Dia league? I see lots of Protosses complaining about Roaches on the official forums, which I guess means the build is still alive and kicking, but then again if now every Zerg and his grandmother does this it would alse be logical that Tosses have adapted. And I kinda hate coming late to the party.. So.. should I be learning this or would I be better off with some other shennanigans, like faking it and going muta or something? Thanks!
The metagame shifted from a muta harass-intensive style to huge roach pressure to try and deny third and a late game composition of infestor/broodlord.
Toss have been adapting, but like many tosses in plat/diamond their macro isn't that great. Simply maxing on roaches at 11:30-12 minutes can outright win the game if the toss has macro slips or they're doing a strange build order.
This style has become a LOT more popular in the last few months, so many of my toss opponents will blindly go mass sentry/immortal anticipating a roach attack. Certainly faking an attack and going muta can be effective against an opponent of any level, especially since the toss response to muta is so much different than max roaches.
Something I've also seen a lot more is air-centered builds. Roaches can't shoot up and a 2 stargate air attack will hit long before you're maxed. A couple days ago I played 2 ZvP's in a row where the toss built 4-6 void rays (one went all-in, the other tried a blink stalker transition behind canons. In both instances I had about 150 supply of roaches, so I just barreled down the front door and dealt crippling damage and won with the hydra/roach follow-up. This is an example of beating a strange build with the solid macro this strategy enables.
Don't forget that a large portion of lower league tosses do 2 base all-ins. I've been seeing more of these from my plat/diamond opponents in the last few months. I am definitely attributing this as a response to mass roach play.
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On May 06 2012 01:21 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 22:55 baba44713 wrote:Hi. I've been away from SC2 for a few months and managed to miss the rise of Stephano's build over FFE. Can someone please tell me what is the current metagame around it? Esp. concerning Plat/Dia league? I see lots of Protosses complaining about Roaches on the official forums, which I guess means the build is still alive and kicking, but then again if now every Zerg and his grandmother does this it would alse be logical that Tosses have adapted. And I kinda hate coming late to the party.. So.. should I be learning this or would I be better off with some other shennanigans, like faking it and going muta or something? Thanks! The metagame shifted from a muta harass-intensive style to huge roach pressure to try and deny third and a late game composition of infestor/broodlord. Toss have been adapting, but like many tosses in plat/diamond their macro isn't that great. Simply maxing on roaches at 11:30-12 minutes can outright win the game if the toss has macro slips or they're doing a strange build order. This style has become a LOT more popular in the last few months, so many of my toss opponents will blindly go mass sentry/immortal anticipating a roach attack. Certainly faking an attack and going muta can be effective against an opponent of any level, especially since the toss response to muta is so much different than max roaches. Something I've also seen a lot more is air-centered builds. Roaches can't shoot up and a 2 stargate air attack will hit long before you're maxed. A couple days ago I played 2 ZvP's in a row where the toss built 4-6 void rays (one went all-in, the other tried a blink stalker transition behind canons. In both instances I had about 150 supply of roaches, so I just barreled down the front door and dealt crippling damage and won with the hydra/roach follow-up. This is an example of beating a strange build with the solid macro this strategy enables. Don't forget that a large portion of lower league tosses do 2 base all-ins. I've been seeing more of these from my plat/diamond opponents in the last few months. I am definitely attributing this as a response to mass roach play.
I rarely go mutas in this matchup anymore, but I have been experimenting with a much earlier hive. Going for 5 gases instead of 4 allows you to support the heavy roach production to pressure the third, but also allows you to get a faster infestation pit. Then you can time your 4th base and additional geysers accordingly, aiming for about 75 drones with all 8 geysers. When you start hive tech, start a spire.
A tip if you're aiming towards the late game - upgrade melee/carapace instead of roach attack.
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nothing like overwhelming people with ling/infestor. i have more success with this style than bling/ling muta. get those melee upgrades and zerg your opponent to death
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Also to be fair @ Stephano saying that max roach is imba, what Korean toss has he beaten in a BoX? He lost to MC in that recent showmatch (sure he was up but he lost, and being up 3-2 in a Bo9 doesn't equate winning a Bo5, as in a Bo5 MC probably plays different strategies), and I went through his whole TLPD and looked at his vs any korean toss record and I counted:
Hero 1-2
JYP 2-1
Inori 5-3 (1-2, 2-0, 2-1)
MC 0-4 (not counting recent showmatch, brings it to 3-9?)
TAiLs 2-2
13-17 overall.
Sure it doesn't mean too much, the games were over a long period of time and etc etc. but still, until he can dominate Korean toss as well as EU toss, it just supports what Morrows saying about EU toss being bad. I mean for the longest time all Toss had to do was turtle into a deathball and then win (add on a mothership), or 2base allin, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were too turtely. KCDC you're obviously posting everywhere saying you can't handle it (as evidenced by your 60page thread) but maybe you're just bad vs Zerg? Also, given your apparent high winrates vs Terran (per your PvT thread, and assuming you win decently against Toss, your wins against Toss and Terran put you against really good Zergs, but if you suck at vZ you lose, and then win against other races, so keep matching good Zergs who beat you). I mean Korean toss have the same units you do but they're winning just fine vs Zerg as per Morrow.
The same can also be applied to EU terrans being bad and that's why so much TvP imba complaining (iirc the winrates aren't so bad in Korea), and I'm a terran player. I mean I look at TvP and have no clue how to win but I'm just really bad so that's probably why. Everyone whines to balance around the top players, and obviously these players are in Korea, so shouldn't you look at KR winrates, not EU winrates?
Basically my rant boils down to -
1a.Korean toss don't seem to have trouble PvZ
1b.Korean terran don't seem to have trouble TvP
2.TvP and PvZ seem hard for non-korean
3.non-korean suck
4.TvP and PvZ are fine
5.balance around Koreans because everyone says balance around the top
6.people say balance around the top and then like to think they're near top by being GM NA server or EU server.
7.^said people mostly actually suck compared to koreans so don't balance around them.
8.Just imagine if we didn't have split servers and had to play vs Kr players daily basis, you think you'd still be high masters? Even with masters being much larger (2% of a larger population if servers were unified), it'd probably be hilarious and we'd all end up minus 2 leagues.
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On May 06 2012 07:50 teamamerica wrote:
Also to be fair @ Stephano saying that max roach is imba, what Korean toss has he beaten in a BoX? He lost to MC in that recent showmatch (sure he was up but he lost, and being up 3-2 in a Bo9 doesn't equate winning a Bo5, as in a Bo5 MC probably plays different strategies), and I went through his whole TLPD and looked at his vs any korean toss record and I counted:
Hero 1-2
JYP 2-1
Inori 5-3 (1-2, 2-0, 2-1)
MC 0-4 (not counting recent showmatch, brings it to 3-9?)
TAiLs 2-2
13-17 overall.
Sure it doesn't mean too much, the games were over a long period of time and etc etc. but still, until he can dominate Korean toss as well as EU toss, it just supports what Morrows saying about EU toss being bad. I mean for the longest time all Toss had to do was turtle into a deathball and then win (add on a mothership), or 2base allin, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were too turtely. KCDC you're obviously posting everywhere saying you can't handle it (as evidenced by your 60page thread) but maybe you're just bad vs Zerg? Also, given your apparent high winrates vs Terran (per your PvT thread, and assuming you win decently against Toss, your wins against Toss and Terran put you against really good Zergs, but if you suck at vZ you lose, and then win against other races, so keep matching good Zergs who beat you). I mean Korean toss have the same units you do but they're winning just fine vs Zerg as per Morrow.
The same can also be applied to EU terrans being bad and that's why so much TvP imba complaining (iirc the winrates aren't so bad in Korea), and I'm a terran player. I mean I look at TvP and have no clue how to win but I'm just really bad so that's probably why. Everyone whines to balance around the top players, and obviously these players are in Korea, so shouldn't you look at KR winrates, not EU winrates?
Basically my rant boils down to -
1a.Korean toss don't seem to have trouble PvZ
1b.Korean terran don't seem to have trouble TvP
2.TvP and PvZ seem hard for non-korean
3.non-korean suck
4.TvP and PvZ are fine
5.balance around Koreans because everyone says balance around the top
6.people say balance around the top and then like to think they're near top by being GM NA server or EU server.
7.^said people mostly actually suck compared to koreans so don't balance around them.
8.Just imagine if we didn't have split servers and had to play vs Kr players daily basis, you think you'd still be high masters? Even with masters being much larger (2% of a larger population if servers were unified), it'd probably be hilarious and we'd all end up minus 2 leagues.
While most of this post is whiny garbage that really isn't useful, the biggest thing to debate regarding this style is how toss is supposed to secure a third without dying to roach spam. Not sure if you actually watched MC vs Stephano, but MC relied heavily on 2 base timings a lot of which Stephano did not scout.
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On May 06 2012 07:57 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 07:50 teamamerica wrote:
Also to be fair @ Stephano saying that max roach is imba, what Korean toss has he beaten in a BoX? He lost to MC in that recent showmatch (sure he was up but he lost, and being up 3-2 in a Bo9 doesn't equate winning a Bo5, as in a Bo5 MC probably plays different strategies), and I went through his whole TLPD and looked at his vs any korean toss record and I counted:
Hero 1-2
JYP 2-1
Inori 5-3 (1-2, 2-0, 2-1)
MC 0-4 (not counting recent showmatch, brings it to 3-9?)
TAiLs 2-2
13-17 overall.
Sure it doesn't mean too much, the games were over a long period of time and etc etc. but still, until he can dominate Korean toss as well as EU toss, it just supports what Morrows saying about EU toss being bad. I mean for the longest time all Toss had to do was turtle into a deathball and then win (add on a mothership), or 2base allin, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were too turtely. KCDC you're obviously posting everywhere saying you can't handle it (as evidenced by your 60page thread) but maybe you're just bad vs Zerg? Also, given your apparent high winrates vs Terran (per your PvT thread, and assuming you win decently against Toss, your wins against Toss and Terran put you against really good Zergs, but if you suck at vZ you lose, and then win against other races, so keep matching good Zergs who beat you). I mean Korean toss have the same units you do but they're winning just fine vs Zerg as per Morrow.
The same can also be applied to EU terrans being bad and that's why so much TvP imba complaining (iirc the winrates aren't so bad in Korea), and I'm a terran player. I mean I look at TvP and have no clue how to win but I'm just really bad so that's probably why. Everyone whines to balance around the top players, and obviously these players are in Korea, so shouldn't you look at KR winrates, not EU winrates?
Basically my rant boils down to -
1a.Korean toss don't seem to have trouble PvZ
1b.Korean terran don't seem to have trouble TvP
2.TvP and PvZ seem hard for non-korean
3.non-korean suck
4.TvP and PvZ are fine
5.balance around Koreans because everyone says balance around the top
6.people say balance around the top and then like to think they're near top by being GM NA server or EU server.
7.^said people mostly actually suck compared to koreans so don't balance around them.
8.Just imagine if we didn't have split servers and had to play vs Kr players daily basis, you think you'd still be high masters? Even with masters being much larger (2% of a larger population if servers were unified), it'd probably be hilarious and we'd all end up minus 2 leagues. While most of this post is whiny garbage that really isn't useful, the biggest thing to debate regarding this style is how toss is supposed to secure a third without dying to roach spam. Not sure if you actually watched MC vs Stephano, but MC relied heavily on 2 base timings a lot of which Stephano did not scout.
Wtf Morrow said how. Then KCDC comes in and says toss still struggling to figure out how, and says it may or may not be imbalanced. Did you even try any of the things Morrow said?
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On May 06 2012 08:01 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 07:57 CaptainHaz wrote:On May 06 2012 07:50 teamamerica wrote:
Also to be fair @ Stephano saying that max roach is imba, what Korean toss has he beaten in a BoX? He lost to MC in that recent showmatch (sure he was up but he lost, and being up 3-2 in a Bo9 doesn't equate winning a Bo5, as in a Bo5 MC probably plays different strategies), and I went through his whole TLPD and looked at his vs any korean toss record and I counted:
Hero 1-2
JYP 2-1
Inori 5-3 (1-2, 2-0, 2-1)
MC 0-4 (not counting recent showmatch, brings it to 3-9?)
TAiLs 2-2
13-17 overall.
Sure it doesn't mean too much, the games were over a long period of time and etc etc. but still, until he can dominate Korean toss as well as EU toss, it just supports what Morrows saying about EU toss being bad. I mean for the longest time all Toss had to do was turtle into a deathball and then win (add on a mothership), or 2base allin, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were too turtely. KCDC you're obviously posting everywhere saying you can't handle it (as evidenced by your 60page thread) but maybe you're just bad vs Zerg? Also, given your apparent high winrates vs Terran (per your PvT thread, and assuming you win decently against Toss, your wins against Toss and Terran put you against really good Zergs, but if you suck at vZ you lose, and then win against other races, so keep matching good Zergs who beat you). I mean Korean toss have the same units you do but they're winning just fine vs Zerg as per Morrow.
The same can also be applied to EU terrans being bad and that's why so much TvP imba complaining (iirc the winrates aren't so bad in Korea), and I'm a terran player. I mean I look at TvP and have no clue how to win but I'm just really bad so that's probably why. Everyone whines to balance around the top players, and obviously these players are in Korea, so shouldn't you look at KR winrates, not EU winrates?
Basically my rant boils down to -
1a.Korean toss don't seem to have trouble PvZ
1b.Korean terran don't seem to have trouble TvP
2.TvP and PvZ seem hard for non-korean
3.non-korean suck
4.TvP and PvZ are fine
5.balance around Koreans because everyone says balance around the top
6.people say balance around the top and then like to think they're near top by being GM NA server or EU server.
7.^said people mostly actually suck compared to koreans so don't balance around them.
8.Just imagine if we didn't have split servers and had to play vs Kr players daily basis, you think you'd still be high masters? Even with masters being much larger (2% of a larger population if servers were unified), it'd probably be hilarious and we'd all end up minus 2 leagues. While most of this post is whiny garbage that really isn't useful, the biggest thing to debate regarding this style is how toss is supposed to secure a third without dying to roach spam. Not sure if you actually watched MC vs Stephano, but MC relied heavily on 2 base timings a lot of which Stephano did not scout. Wtf Morrow said how. Then KCDC comes in and says toss still struggling to figure out how, and says it may or may not be imbalanced. Did you even try any of the things Morrow said?
Well to be fair, many protoss players are still struggling against this style. I think the best solution for taking a 3rd is to start playing a more aggressive/multitasking style, pressuring at all stages in the game to keep Zerg below their desired drone count.
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Game 8 of MC vs Stephano is probably he best counter to Stephano style max roach I have seen so far.
He goes FFE into Stargate and uses it to get map control and takes a third while going for Colossus. The Stargate units decimate a number of Roaches while slowing down the max out by a few seconds due to Stephano putting up AA defenses.
I think there is a tiny opening where MC is vulnerable to a Hydra switch but other than that it seemed to be a solid defense. I think that is why MC goes Colossi so fast is due to the possible Hydra switch.
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On May 06 2012 08:01 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 07:57 CaptainHaz wrote:On May 06 2012 07:50 teamamerica wrote:
Also to be fair @ Stephano saying that max roach is imba, what Korean toss has he beaten in a BoX? He lost to MC in that recent showmatch (sure he was up but he lost, and being up 3-2 in a Bo9 doesn't equate winning a Bo5, as in a Bo5 MC probably plays different strategies), and I went through his whole TLPD and looked at his vs any korean toss record and I counted:
Hero 1-2
JYP 2-1
Inori 5-3 (1-2, 2-0, 2-1)
MC 0-4 (not counting recent showmatch, brings it to 3-9?)
TAiLs 2-2
13-17 overall.
Sure it doesn't mean too much, the games were over a long period of time and etc etc. but still, until he can dominate Korean toss as well as EU toss, it just supports what Morrows saying about EU toss being bad. I mean for the longest time all Toss had to do was turtle into a deathball and then win (add on a mothership), or 2base allin, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were too turtely. KCDC you're obviously posting everywhere saying you can't handle it (as evidenced by your 60page thread) but maybe you're just bad vs Zerg? Also, given your apparent high winrates vs Terran (per your PvT thread, and assuming you win decently against Toss, your wins against Toss and Terran put you against really good Zergs, but if you suck at vZ you lose, and then win against other races, so keep matching good Zergs who beat you). I mean Korean toss have the same units you do but they're winning just fine vs Zerg as per Morrow.
The same can also be applied to EU terrans being bad and that's why so much TvP imba complaining (iirc the winrates aren't so bad in Korea), and I'm a terran player. I mean I look at TvP and have no clue how to win but I'm just really bad so that's probably why. Everyone whines to balance around the top players, and obviously these players are in Korea, so shouldn't you look at KR winrates, not EU winrates?
Basically my rant boils down to -
1a.Korean toss don't seem to have trouble PvZ
1b.Korean terran don't seem to have trouble TvP
2.TvP and PvZ seem hard for non-korean
3.non-korean suck
4.TvP and PvZ are fine
5.balance around Koreans because everyone says balance around the top
6.people say balance around the top and then like to think they're near top by being GM NA server or EU server.
7.^said people mostly actually suck compared to koreans so don't balance around them.
8.Just imagine if we didn't have split servers and had to play vs Kr players daily basis, you think you'd still be high masters? Even with masters being much larger (2% of a larger population if servers were unified), it'd probably be hilarious and we'd all end up minus 2 leagues. While most of this post is whiny garbage that really isn't useful, the biggest thing to debate regarding this style is how toss is supposed to secure a third without dying to roach spam. Not sure if you actually watched MC vs Stephano, but MC relied heavily on 2 base timings a lot of which Stephano did not scout. Wtf Morrow said how. Then KCDC comes in and says toss still struggling to figure out how, and says it may or may not be imbalanced. Did you even try any of the things Morrow said?
Morrow failed to mention how you should pressure.
We don't have hellions that can pressure and run away, if protoss pressure's, and zerg builds enough units to stop it, we lose our units, and that sets us more behind (a failed +1 4 gate for example). In the end we're just hoping our opponent fucks up.
Stargate maybe.
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On May 08 2012 05:58 aintthatfunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 08:01 teamamerica wrote:On May 06 2012 07:57 CaptainHaz wrote:On May 06 2012 07:50 teamamerica wrote:
Also to be fair @ Stephano saying that max roach is imba, what Korean toss has he beaten in a BoX? He lost to MC in that recent showmatch (sure he was up but he lost, and being up 3-2 in a Bo9 doesn't equate winning a Bo5, as in a Bo5 MC probably plays different strategies), and I went through his whole TLPD and looked at his vs any korean toss record and I counted:
Hero 1-2
JYP 2-1
Inori 5-3 (1-2, 2-0, 2-1)
MC 0-4 (not counting recent showmatch, brings it to 3-9?)
TAiLs 2-2
13-17 overall.
Sure it doesn't mean too much, the games were over a long period of time and etc etc. but still, until he can dominate Korean toss as well as EU toss, it just supports what Morrows saying about EU toss being bad. I mean for the longest time all Toss had to do was turtle into a deathball and then win (add on a mothership), or 2base allin, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were too turtely. KCDC you're obviously posting everywhere saying you can't handle it (as evidenced by your 60page thread) but maybe you're just bad vs Zerg? Also, given your apparent high winrates vs Terran (per your PvT thread, and assuming you win decently against Toss, your wins against Toss and Terran put you against really good Zergs, but if you suck at vZ you lose, and then win against other races, so keep matching good Zergs who beat you). I mean Korean toss have the same units you do but they're winning just fine vs Zerg as per Morrow.
The same can also be applied to EU terrans being bad and that's why so much TvP imba complaining (iirc the winrates aren't so bad in Korea), and I'm a terran player. I mean I look at TvP and have no clue how to win but I'm just really bad so that's probably why. Everyone whines to balance around the top players, and obviously these players are in Korea, so shouldn't you look at KR winrates, not EU winrates?
Basically my rant boils down to -
1a.Korean toss don't seem to have trouble PvZ
1b.Korean terran don't seem to have trouble TvP
2.TvP and PvZ seem hard for non-korean
3.non-korean suck
4.TvP and PvZ are fine
5.balance around Koreans because everyone says balance around the top
6.people say balance around the top and then like to think they're near top by being GM NA server or EU server.
7.^said people mostly actually suck compared to koreans so don't balance around them.
8.Just imagine if we didn't have split servers and had to play vs Kr players daily basis, you think you'd still be high masters? Even with masters being much larger (2% of a larger population if servers were unified), it'd probably be hilarious and we'd all end up minus 2 leagues. While most of this post is whiny garbage that really isn't useful, the biggest thing to debate regarding this style is how toss is supposed to secure a third without dying to roach spam. Not sure if you actually watched MC vs Stephano, but MC relied heavily on 2 base timings a lot of which Stephano did not scout. Wtf Morrow said how. Then KCDC comes in and says toss still struggling to figure out how, and says it may or may not be imbalanced. Did you even try any of the things Morrow said? Morrow failed to mention how you should pressure. We don't have hellions that can pressure and run away, if protoss pressure's, and zerg builds enough units to stop it, we lose our units, and that sets us more behind (a failed +1 4 gate for example). In the end we're just hoping our opponent fucks up. Stargate maybe.
I believe he suggested doing some sort of early pressure (2-3 Zealots or Zealot/Stalker) followed by a 4gate Zealot timing at 8:00. It's not necessary to kill the hatchery or the queens/drones, it's just to force Zerg to produce units they don't want to create so early.
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This build was good, it has its use and is very punishing if not scouted directly, but zergs have been getting annihilated using this mass roach build against good korean protoss players (which means its only a matter of time before that transfers to the rest of players). Maxing on roaches is only good at the 12 minute mark, after that its just wasted supply for zerg as its too easy for the protoss to deal with it.
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Thank you Morrow for your pvz input =)
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This max roach style is very bad on both tech and upgrades, if the roach/ling pushes can't do significant damage within a few rounds of reinforcements, zerg has nothing to deal with a protoss counter push with many collossi in the mix. Zerg's upgrades are horrendous, and trying to jump from poorly upgraded roach/ling directly to broodlords leaves a huge window of vulnerability where the broodlords are not ready, and the roach/ling army is no match for the protoss army. Think of this strategy as a lesser all-in from zerg, he is sacrificing future tech and upgrades to make a huge army quickly, and if the attack fails, he is quite behind and very hard to survive a high tech protoss push with well upgraded units.
There are many ways to pressure the zerg early to delay his economy. I really like (hate) a strong 4 gate push, it forces roaches almost right after zerg's third comes up, zerg should have no more than 50 drones at that point or he could simply die. Stargate play is also good, but you have to add phoenixes to the mix, voidrays/zealot by themselves cannot hold zerg at bay. Whatever variation you choose, just keep a keen eye on zerg's army size, as long as you have the advantage, keep pressuring, but as soon as the army sizes start to look even, you should know that the next round of zerg reinforcements will crush you, so run like hell and turtle to mass collossi, survive a few waves of roaches, and push once you have 6 collossi to end the game. You really have to play the zerg side to understand how difficult it is to transition out of this mass roach style.
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On May 10 2012 06:07 w3jjjj wrote:
This max roach style is very bad on both tech and upgrades, if the roach/ling pushes can't do significant damage within a few rounds of reinforcements, zerg has nothing to deal with a protoss counter push with many collossi in the mix.
Well this isn't necessarily true. With the mass roach style, you have two chances to kill the protoss army - once on the other side of the map near his base, next when he moves onto creep near yours. There are also more 5-6 gas variations developing, with a 10:30/11:00 spire, which means you can mix corruptors into your roach army at a reasonable time to better engage those collossi armies.
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EPT
