--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT : With HOTS being out, The guide is no longer viable : the openings can't handle things like oracle or some MSC push, and the no-viking play has a really hard time versus tempests. It'll probably take time but i'll do a new guide for HOTS ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Everyone, I am Lyyna, a french terran playing at high master Level. Since one year and an half, i’m meching in something like 90% of my games including TvP. After getting involved in some discussions here on TL about TvP mech, some people convinced me to write a guide about my gameplay . . . so, here we go.
-The guide won't be really specific about timings and stuffs like that. The first version will probably be horrible, but I'm focused on improving and updating it for a long time, adding questions/answers, FPVODS and replays, but the “True guide” will be the questions/answers and FPVODs. -I’m not a pro, and even if i hope to reach the top, i know that i’m not a super-Gosu GSL player. What i’ll be talking about is MY gameplay, this is not a definitive guide about mech in TvP or a ‘how to easily win with mech’ guide. This is just the story of how I like to play. -I know my style is boring to watch and/or face, but i don't really care about it. I play to win, not to give fun to my opponent . . . -I know a lot of people will be randomly bashing me about how a noob I am, how it is impossible to mech in TvP, etc etc. Even maybe attacking me personally (Don’t waste your time then : i don’t care about it), maybe to show how good they’re at analyzing strategy regardless of their bronze league, maybe just because some pros said mech isn’t good in TvP and they think they look intelligent by doing ‘like pros’. I don’t give a fuck about this, people are bashing me since i started meching and turtling. So, the only advice I can give you, as a warning, is just read it if you're interested by learning how i get involved in mech, how I usually managed to win my TvP, but please, don't read it just to insult me after, it doesn't worth it.
How did i get involved into mech, and why did i choose to keep using it even with all these nerfs? + Show Spoiler +
Well, one year and an half ago, when i was a poor noob realizing that Terran was imba before all these nerfs Blizzard did, i was trying to find a way to play and win most of my games (like everyone i guess). The problem being that i’m basically a slow player, without many actions per minutes, and even if now my multitasking and micro aren’t that bad, at this time it was impossible for me to do more than two things at once, and splitting marines was the most painful thing ever. . . And at some point i nearly gave up . . . But one day,i discovered somebody who changed my conception of the game : The PanzerGeneral, Goody, with his pure mech style in every matchup. Goody, with his low APM and genius game sense. Goody, rollin’ on everybody hatin’ him. He made me realize many things which don't take part of the "common sc2 sense" : -You don’t have to have 250 APM to be good. -The mainstream strategy isn’t the only good one. -If you want to play in a different way, don’t give a fuck about people who keep saying “You noob this is not possible go mass MMM lol”. Once i realized that, i started to mech in kinda every game. I also tried a lot of differents strats (like SkyTerran, Marauder/Tank vP, etc). And i got higher and higher in the ladder, rolling on protoss in macro games.
But well, I was still not really satisfied with my TvP mech style. Especially because of something i kept hearing everywhere... Some things like “You need to push in order to..”, “You can’t push because …”, “Pushing like that is really dangerous”, "expanding this late will make your push weak". . . And i thinked about these things Goody made me realize . . and suddenly: “He wait ! What do i play like if i HAVE to push? Why can’t i just turtle, abusing the fact i got the best army if allowed to secure a good defensive position, along with some of the best defensive tools in the game . . . .”. My new playstyle was born.
I started to do it in TvT . . . using slow tanks line movements, going forwards step by step . . . getting loads of tanks and vikings and BC . . . never doing any big moves . . . only securing positions, bases, securing my flanks with turrets, securing the middle of the map, moving every tank one at a time securing everything with sensor towers, watching that mad bio player dying to my huge metal army. Then i started to do it in TvZ . . . abusing the power of tanks, thors,ravens,and BC to handle everything. . . Same things again, secure position with tanks , get sensors towers, move tanks forward a bit, moar sensor towers, mass ravens and BC , etc etc . .. and start to go in the other half on the map at like 35 minutes . . . Fighting mass expo from the Z with mass expo and mass orbitals for me . . . Abusing the power of a mech/air army.
And here we come. In TvP.
-Camping in TvP ? Are you Crazy?
Maybe. But well, i was also tired of always hearing “OMG push”, “OMG pressure”, “OMG move”, “OMG go ahead and kill him”. Why couldn’t i play defensive ? Well, Think about these “Goody’s rules”, and you know what happened next. From scratch, i tried to create my own TvP play, and to overcome as much issues as possible. As i said earlier,i’m a slow player. I use my head more than my hands, and that’s what allowed me to do that.
Well, i guess i can start with the guide itself . . .
First of all, my personal rule : -As long as you’re alive,you can recover. A dead terran with a lot of money is still a dead terran. (i already won some games, for example,after being down 100 supply, just because my opponent let me macro for a few minutes while he was trying to secure his advantage..)
My ‘ironics’ rules : -Under 20 tanks,You’re not safe. -If you have less orbitals than tanks, something went wrong.
General Macro play Guide - Openings, midgame, lategame + Show Spoiler +
Openings with mech can be really tricky. You have to pick an opening that allows you to get an expansion not too late, you also need to be as safe as possible, and you also need to be able to transition into mech AND into others strats (for metagaming, reaction to some specifics counter-builds,etc).
-1 rax double gas expo. basically a 1 rax FE, with a faster teching. The bo is roughly : -12 Rax -between 16 and 18 Double Gas -Around 21 : CC -Factory when possible -Get a reactor on rax after Factory Then you rush for cloaked banshee as fast as possible. Also add armory as soon as possible (basically while getting the first banshee), start Thor and +1 armor (i’ll talk about that later). (I’ll not do the exact build orders,as it changes due to scouting. Refers to replay for exact builds).
-Reactor Rax expo. -12 Rax -13 (or 14) Gas -Reactor after 1 marine, then refers to the previous Build =) A bit safer, but slower teching (delay by 1 minute).
Fact-Tank-CC (Thorzain's opening versus Tyler in TSL3) 12 Rax , produce marines until 4 , then reactor on rax (usually just after CC) 13 Gas Factory Bunker Techlab on fact 1 Tank CC Good opening getting a CC around 5:30 and can defend most cheeses,but its CRITICAL to keep your scouting scv alive, as its your only scouting thing
Others builds are possible (reactor hellion, etc) but i don’t use these. Basically every BO can lead to mech as long as you don't commit too much to rax tech. (in fact even 2 rax pressure can be a really good opening to transition into some GhostMech)
Early games can be hard to handle, even if the current metagame is basically all about Fast expand with light pressure, so in most cases a bunker will keep you alive from that pressure. So let’s talk about 1 base stuff As i said, for the 111, please refere to Warden’s guide. With the 1 rax reactor expo and the 1 rax double gas expo, It’ll be tricky to handle some things. The answer to all these things is basically the same: -If you can scout something allin-ish is coming (like seeing proxy), i suggest to cancel your CC, and 3/1/1 in answer to their retarded cheese. You’ll have delayed tanks and banshee, but a huge number of marines, and there is nothing a protoss can do while doing a 1 base cheese to handle that. -You know he isn’t fast expanding (second fast gas, adding gates,etc). Don’t cancel your CC, as it may be some 3 gate expo, 2 gate robo expo, etc . . . Usually these opens are aimed to defend, but if he push, you’ll probably need a second bunker to hold. Pull a good number (10-15) of scv to defend, and turtle until you get some tech-heavy units (so basically your first banshee). I can’t give a lots of details about it, as it could vary a lot depending on maps, scouting’s luck,etc . . . There is a lot of personal experience involved in that. So . . Refer to replays :D.
So, to summarise : -Safest build is the 111 expo, Greediest is the 1 rax double gas expo, 1 rax reactor exp is in between but delays tech a lot. -Tech for cloaked (optional) banshees and thors as fast as possible (imo this is the safest,and it'll help for midgame).
-Midgame, or how to handle REALLY painful things + Show Spoiler +
Ok, so now, you are alive, you have 2 bases, getting thors and banshee and marines, around 10 minutes. You do have -1 Armory researching +1 armor -1 reactored rax -1 techlabbed Factory -1 techlabbed Starport finishing cloak http://imgur.com/PUDmb First thor out, defending a 6 gate with my 2nd banshee,marines and scv . . while my 1st banshee is having fun in his base
You’re safe versus these funny 2 bases immortal/sentry busts or 6 gates which can come around this timing. With a wall and mass repair, thor/marine/banshee can handle everything. I’ve sometimes even hold 6 gate just with 1 bunker, my marines (you should have a good number of these at that time), 1 banshee and 10 scv. . . Yes,without the thor. Forgot him in my base like a boss. And my first banshee killed 20 probes in his base during the fight
Look for harass’s opportunities with your banshees. It allows you to -Pick up probes (obvious) -Force observers (waste of supply and robotic’s production time) -Force him to keep units at home (For each banshee, he need at least 2 stalkers and 1 obs. Supply-wise it’s really good). Sometimes you can even snipe an important building (forge, robo, tech building . .). So be active with these! The banshees' goal isn't really to do direct damage, but mainly to stress him.
When possible, Replace your rax with a 2nd factory, get hellions. Blue flame timing depends of your gas allocation,and of his zealot’s number, but it's ok to delay it. Same with +1 attack or +2 armor choice (refer below for “What to choose"). You need to scout his composition a lot to see what he’s getting and adapting (You think you need mules? Remember the Fucking Ultimate Rulz.). Adapt your third timing to his own.
In midgame, you have to decide between going ghost-less mech or a ghost Mech army. Basically the ghost-less allows you to get a huge mech army early, with a HUGE number of hellions and tanks while the ghostMech army will be a bit weaker until you get your ghosts count up, and delay your additional factories. GhostMech Followup : + Show Spoiler +
Basically, you need to get, between 10 and 14 minutes : -Your 3rd CC -2 More Fact (bringing you to 4) (staying on 3 facts is OK if you want to do some lategame-oriented ghostmech play) -Ghost academy -Second mech uppgrade finished (+2 armor or +1 attack) -A raven
Note that you'll often get a HUGE mineral bank around that 10 min timing. Don't worry,it's normal, it'll kickly disappear when you start to get 3rd, ghosts,hellions and more factory at once When getting your 3rd, start producing tanks,research siege mode (and BF after it if not already done). You should have a nicely sized army with 3 or 4 thors, hellions,marines, cloaked banshees . . . and now adding ghosts and tanks too. Start to add sensor towers, turrets rings and macro orbitals (which allows for MOAR ORBITALS §§)
Something really painful that can happen mid game is late 2 bases allin. It can be chargelot/archon, immortal/Chargelot, Stalker/colossus/archon,etc . . . Basically, versus these, you need to -Continually poke with banshees. You see there is no third? then just force him to choose between getting a shitload of cannons to leave his base, or going totally allin without any income because all his probes get picked. The main trick is to scout this. You can’t hold it in open area, but it’s insanely easy to do so when you’re at your natural, with a supply/CC/bunker wall, with 20 scv repairing.
At that point, you need to start adding fact, some starports and barracks, macros CC, planetary fortress middle map, and your 4th . . (usually while taking my 4th, i have my natural and main CC, a PF at my 3rd, and 2 macro orbitals). Of course always get units before adding buildings
At that point,you’re mainly getting tanks out of your factory.
I suggest to watch replays for midgame fights. Usually a smart protoss will avoid to attack. No problem, we want to avoid fights too. If he try to attack. . well, you have sensor towers every where, so just prepare the battlefield : get walls, Siege, put PDD down, hellions in front of everything, EMP, Focus fire stalkers and colossus with tanks,snipe obs with thors, … ?, Profite. Cloakshee are the key here, as he can't 'win' totally a fight as long as you snipe obs with your thors before banshees start to die
Between 10 and 14 minutes, you need to get -Second armory to get +2 armor, get +1 attack on the first one -Going to 5 Factories (2 reactored, 3 techlabbed) -3rd CC -Dat Raven
Check questions section for some ghostless/ghostmech answers
Ok so now, you should have -4 bases, 5th ready to go -PF at 3th and 4th and most maps, 4 Orbitals -Sensor towers everywhere
If you went ghostless and still dont have ghosts, just add the academy and one or two more rax to not be caught unprepared
Start to add more starports. Usually i do have 3 barracks, 2 reactored fact, 5 techlabbed fact, and 2 techlabbed starports. So just add 3 techlabbed starport, fusion core, and . . . let’s the game begin ! I also often choose to add a second armory,to rush 3/3 for air (usually i'm 2/3 with mech at that point)
Now you can go into serious shit. Basically, You are aiming to get your DoomBallz (check below)
-Banshees and vikings : Ok, so basically BC are better in most situations ,especially with ravens , but sometimes you cant get them (not enough gas, cant afford to sac supply or wait for BC to come out , forgetting fusion core like a retard,etc), so you’ll have to get these. Vikings aren’t that bad versus protoss air, and banshees are really good in every situation.
Continue massing orbitals,sensor, production facilities, etc . . . What? What do i hear? “When do you push?” ? Ahahah, good joke. The answer is simple : NEVER. Well, of course that’s kind of an exageration, you’ll sometimes push . . after defending 3 waves of super costly T3 units ,when he doesn’t have any ressources left . . .
My standard macro Play -Thorzain Opening's (12 rax 13 gas, factory, stop marines prod at 4, get 1 tank, 5:30 CC) -Reactor on rax, get starport and armory -Get 1 raven, thors, banshees, +1 mech armor, ghost tech -Add 3rd, go to 1 rax , 3/4 fact (1 reactor), 1 port, getting thors (~~4 is enough), Tanks, BFhellions, Banshees, ghosts -When it's safe to move out, move and expand, when not possible, add macro CC's.
-If you start to bank gas, or protoss goes too passive (or try to switch to air), get your own air army. Ravens with SM and BCs
-Aim for a Ghosts (8-12 is a good number), Ravens (4-8), BCs and tanks (as much as possible of both, depends of his own army), with a few Thors (4 is a really good number) and BFhellions for support.
My 1/3/1 2 bases Push -1 rax reactor FE (13 or 14 gas, reactor after 1st marine) -Add 2 fact, 1 reactor 1 TL, get marine/tank/hellion, get Blue Flame, secure your nat -When your expand is mining (go to 4 gas fact!), add a Starport and 1 TL fact
Get a raven, Then banshees, hellions, Tanks. Get siege tech
Push when you see him getting his 3rd, Pull 6-10 scv to repair rally your prod to your army (you should get 2 marines, 2 hellions,2 tanks, 1 banshee at once).
You need to siege a few tanks at a time, dont overextend, you need to be really careful. Micro your marines/hellions to avoid getting them killed to fast ,focus colossus/HT with your tanks and banshees, and if you feel you are in a good spot, you can send your reinforcing hellions in his nat/main in order to force him to split his reprod. I suggest to look at my replays for this one
Units : -Marine : Shitty unit that you'll only use in early game to defend your base. Dunno why some people try to make more than 10 of them in a game while spending 100 gas on stim (That's the cost of one uber-good banshee !) -Ghost : 40% hp of the protoss army instantly removed, and really good with cloak + obs snipe. But forces you to rely on their energy/count, especially early game. Great harass lategame with nuke -Hellion : Your "all-purpose" unit. In defense, they are used to deflect harass, hunt for proxy pylons and stuff like that. In offense, they give you a great map control and pressure ability, allowing you to pick probes, HTs, deal some free damage to non-colossus army. In combat,they destroy chargelots really fast,and in large numbers/uppgrades, trade really well with stalkers. They're also a great meathshield. -Tank : Big fucking guy with big fucking guns, aka glass cannon unit. They do a lot of AOE damages and have insane range. Both in defense and offense, they're used to "zone" the protoss army, basically making some areas deadly for him, making any hesitating engagement or gosu colossus poke REALLY painful, and shredding all his units. Get a good number of them, especially if he's low on chargelots or once you get a big number of air units -Thor : Even bigger guys with bigger guns. Basically, your "direct combat" unit. In defense (especially early game), they can hold everything with mass repair, especialy with a +1 armor rush. In offense, they basically offer a big buffer for your tanks, taking a lots of damage while easily clearing his chargelots (and everything else in fact). Have at least 4 of them, and add some if he's going heavy on chargelots. Obs sniper too -Banshees : They're here to drive the protoss mad. they fly everywhere, sniping pylons, probes, units, tech building, nexuses, and are insane in fights. Basically , they allows you to win most midgame fights (or , in worst case, trade in a cost effective way ) by sniping any obs with your thors and then enjoying the dps of these sky maidens. So basically, Harass/Heavy damage unit -BC : 'nuff said. Big starships dealing a lot of damage to everything, direct counter to carriers/colossus/Anything in fact. You should add as much BCs as possible, at leat until you get like 8 of them. Then add more again if he's going heavy carriers/colossus (they destroys carriers and dont care about colossus). -Raven : Imba unit allowing you to do some harass (turrets), blocking areas (turrets), protecting your army (turrets), killing 50 stalkers while loosing exactly 0 supply (pdd), destroying any air unit in the area (HSM). Make sure to always have 1 in midgame, add a few more in lategame (4 is a good number), and power on these if he's going heavy air (especially void rays. If carriers, get BCs first) -Vikings : emergency AA unit. You'll usually need one to fight warp prisms play. The only reason to get them is a late-scouted air switch
Uppgrades : -Siege tech : Get it while getting your tanks (so usually while taking ur 3rd) -Blue Flame : You can delay it until needed, but i'll usually get it before siege mode, once my 2 bases infrastructure is set. -Strike Cannon : I used to never get it , but i realized that it's really good to get it in late midgame, as it allows your thors to easily wins situation like 4 thors versus 4 colosses (at the end of a big fight for example) and things like it. -Banshee Cloak: nuff said -Ravens uppgrades : get seeker missile first, then energy, then spell duration. Get these when you start to have good amounts of gas or when you see air switch -Yamato : Same thing -Ghost Uppgrade : Get cloak when you can afford it (usually on 3 bases). Energy can be delayed
-Questions, How to, FAQ, all that stuff Play when you're behind >> VOD 002 for complete answer + Show Spoiler +
1- Stabilize. Grab the lost position/expansion, and secure your stuff 2- Preparing for the follow-up. Check his tech/army, so you can adapt to what he's going to have to fight (as you'll have limited ressources if you're behind, you cant go for a general purpose army) 3- Check his economy to know if you should be greedy yourself or not
Handle midgames fights before you start to get BC/Raven,and before you have a good enough amount of tanks? + Show Spoiler +
At some points, i was having a problem winning these mid games battles, before realizing some things -Versus 2 bases push, Easy wins can be collected by just retreating to your natural and turtling there. Enjoy 20 vcs repairing your wall. -Banshees. They’re the key,why? because as long as you snipe obs with thors, you can’t LOSE a battle. The worst result is that you loose everything except banshees,and he looses everything. He can’t push in your bases because they do insane damage, and he can’t reprod immortals/colossus. He has to spam chronoboost on observers,and to hide his freshly-produced army until obs are here.
The main fear of TvP mech players. Basicaly i was inspired by my TvZ raven/tank style,where i counter mass BL/infest with ravens. For a long time,i’ve been countering mass air with mass BC, but it only works vs carriers in moderate numbers,with a ground force . . . versus pure air, you need to get Ravens. With some EMP before missile,you can make his whole force evaporate in seconds. So basically,if he’s getting mass air, go for lots of ravens,high BCs count, some thors, and keep a good tanks/ghosts counts.
How to handle mass warpins lategame? like Big zealots A move into mass Warp into bigged A mover,etc. + Show Spoiler +
Well, that’s the point of having the best defensive army in the best defensive position. If he has to use 50 zealots to kill 5 tanks , 10 hellions and 2 PF . .. . Well , I guess you got it? The whole point is basically : COST-EFFECTIVENESS.
-+2 armor or +1 Attack? And what about your air uppgrade? (Specific to early armory openings with +1 armor) + Show Spoiler +
Well, basically, if your opponent is going zealot heavy or "by default", get +2 armor. Your army already has a huge damage output, and you need to keep these costly units alive. +1 Attack might be a better choice if you're tight in gas cant cant wait for +2 armor 175 gas, or if he's getting stalkers heavy, as stalkers only attacks once (so +2 armor is less effective) and a lots of their attacks are avoided with PDD. About your air uppgrade, you should always get attack first. (In fact I'll usually stay on 3attack/1 defense for ground while getting +3 air attack). Armor isn't that useful because his anti air will basically be denied with ravens, tanks,etc. But if ressources allows, you can add a 2nd armory and get ground armor + air attack
If i'm going ghostless midgame, when should i get ghosts? + Show Spoiler +
Well, Basically you're getting ghosts if -You start to float ressources but going BC isn't safe (for example 3 bases versus 3 bases both maxed, but the distance between both base is too short and/or the ground is too open to set up a good defensive position) -He's getting an heavy amount of immortals/HT/Archon (and you can still handle it without ghosts. Just safer) -He's going air - You need ghosts to avoid storm carpets from his supporting HTs on your own air/to avoid vortex/etc
If the protoss is going mass colossus midgame,shoud i switch to vikngs? + Show Spoiler +
No. In fact, as he's cutting his gas-heavy anti air units to get that mass colossus army, i usually suggest to switch to BC earlier : get 1 more starport (so you're up to 3), fusion core,and enjoy his rage when he'll have like 8 stalkers versus 3 BC, 5 banshees and 2 ravens x)
Some interesting posts about it : ZjiublingZ's one, clarifying a bit the whole problem, and adding some nice problematics + Show Spoiler +
No offense, but this thread is FULL of people 'explaining' things about Mech TvP without actually saying anything meaningful, or helping anybody improve or understand Mech vs P at all. It's like what Day9 talked about, people are saying things that don't really mean anything in Starcarft. So I will try and start a real discussion here about Mech vs P. Ghost/Mech vs Pure Mech. Here we go!!!!
I think we should be A LOT more specific about the strengths and weaknesses. I understand you will have less Fact in the mid-game when going Ghost/Mech, but what does this mean? What is the strength/weakness of this position?
Your upgrades will be slower, but you have the extra burst damage of EMP/Snipe templar. In what SPECIFIC scenarios is having the Ghosts better than the upgrades? Does it transition better to the late game? Is it better for timing attacks or aggressiveness in general? Or better at playing defensively? Or does it get even more specific than that?
Finally, what can a Meching player look for at ~10-13 (or earlier if possible) minutes to find out which style will be superior (if one really is)? WHY?
In my experience, I often find myself wishing I had gone for the other route, but not sure how I can know earlier on which is better at the time. I find Ghosts are better against immortal heavy pushes, but worse against Colossus heavy ones. It can be hard to tell which one he is going for by the time I have committed to my tech choice, and one easily transitions into the other. EMP does much more damage against Stalkers than Zealots, but once again, it is very hard for me to tell which unit he is going to be making more of. As of now, I just go Pure Mech if I scout Colossus Tech before Templar Tech, but I can't really give a solid argument for why that is 100% the correct decision to make. My thought process is basically: EMP + Snipe is good against Templar and Archons, so it's worth having them in that scenario.
About the Ghostless mech / GhostMech discussion -Infrastructure : Ghost mech will usually have a 1/3/1 with 1 armory on 2/3 bases ( i usually dont really add any production facilities on 3 bases, as you should use all your ressources with your really cost heavy units). Ghostless will usually have 1/5/1. What does this mean? Basically, the ghostless will have a bigger number of units, earlier, and you dont rely on energy or anything : these units can instantly fight when they get on the field. You'll especially have a huge number of hellions, and you can sacrifice them to do economic or positional damage (forcing his army to move where you want him to move). The bigger amount of mech units allows you to trade with him without any big problem (consider you can get like 8 hellions and 3 thors every minute . . ). Ghostmech will basically have less units, and will not aim at "trading" : with ghostmech , you aim at FUCKING TOTALLY ANNIHILATING his whole army with nearly no loss from your side. You cant really allows to loose everything as you'll have less facilities to reprod, and you also need time to get energy on ghosts. But as a side effect of less production , you can have more spare ressources to get a better lategame installation ( MOAR CC )
-Uppgrade Easy here. Ghostmech will only have 1 armory (at least until the BC transition), Ghostless will have 2. Mech is cool due to the fact that, even if getting double uppgrades makes your army insanely godlike ( and allows you to not have to choose between armor and damage), single uppgrade is totally fine too.
-Combat abilities Ghostless mech can usually fight most protoss armies well. It'll trade really well especially with the "standard" (but now a bit old school ) chargelot/stalker/colossus midgame ball : You'll loose a lots of hellions but you can replenish them fast, while increasing the size of your core thors/tanks army. The problem comes when he's getting heavy archon/immortal/HT. Colossus and air too. All these units are relying a lot of energy/shields, and they can trade relatively well with your ghostless ball (i said RELATIVELY. contrary to what people say, for example a big immortal army will not instantly win versus your mech army, especially due to your shitload of hellions protecting your core units). GhostMech will basically struggle because of the fact that you have to invest resources in ghost tech early in the game, meaning your army will not be as big as a ghostless one, but you'll basically have an instant ~~40% hp damage burst on his whole army as soon as you get a critical mass of ghosts (i personally think the ghost mech start to be more combat-effective once you get 4 ghosts).
So, to sum-up Ghostmech = more for defensive style -Weaker Until you get that critical ghost mass -Cant really trade due to the lack of production -Later uppgrades/slower uppgrades (you'll usually stay on 1 armory) -More spare ressources due to less production - Allows for "bigger" lategam -Insanely strong once you get your ghosts count -you dont really fear any protoss composition
So basically, defensive lategame economic play, in a few words
GhostLess -Lots of production early -Can Trade units (and sacrifice hellions for harass) -Double uppgrades allows you to continue to win fights even in "late midgame" -Allows to be agressive
-Less spare ressources -Weaker to some protoss shield/spell heavy army -Start to loose its strength in lategame, once having the good composition to totally crush him become more important than being to just "trade well"
So basically , More midgame oriented play ,allowing you to be more agressive
I've had trouble dealing with immortal/archon... just wondering, is ghost the right answer? Or Banshee/Air? Because I feel like with ghosts, I won't have enough EMPs to EMP them all, and if I do, then my army is like half ghosts and I don't have that huge number of tanks. I feel like Banshees are better, but just wondering about your guys' opinion... a mix, or is that inefficient? (I feel like it is... immortal/archon doesn't move as fast as zealot/stalker so you can kill some units before the engagement with banshees). Usually when they go immo/archon I don't have to worry about HTs though. Is this true or are they just not playing optimally? Are tanks/banshees not enough to deal with HTs? (sending 1 banshee or separating the banshees to snipe the HT after observer dies)
Edit: If we're nearing maxing out, that's when I start adding ghost + air (like in the 2nd video Lyyna released) if he's sticking with archon/immortal? or do I add ghosts and/or air earlier when I see that he's going for that?
I don't know if you are talking about this as a 2 base all in or as a general composition, but I play against this a lot both ways against a practice partner so I'll just say what I've learned.
Ghost is definitely the right answer! Ghosts and Hellions. Hellions work perfectly against Immortals. They don't take the increased damage from Immortals (which means they only do ~13 DPS, which makes them an expensive Zealot). Hellions also do 8/9/10/11 damage, so they are almost always completely unaffected by Hardened Shield. If you have 10-13 Hellions, you can take down 2-3 Immortal Shields in one shot with focus fire. WOW. Who needs EMP? Save the EMP's for Archons, and after that I find it's best to ignore them. They really do horrible damage against Mech (for 300 gas), especially with no splash. They are only good for soaking up Siege Tank shots, so make sure your Siege Tanks are focus firing the Immortals and basically anything else first!
Other than that, just a good core army of upgraded Tanks and Thors should deal with everything fine. Engage with Hellions/Ghosts at as close to the 14 Range of Tanks as possible, EMP Archons, kite and focus fire Immortals, retreat behind Thors, and I think you will be surprised at how weak this composition actually is when dealt with this way. In fact, you can beat it with just Thor/Hellion/Ghost if it isn't supported by enough Gateway units.
As for Banshees/Air, they are always good because they complement Mech so well. And against this composition they will be at least fairly light on Stalkers because It's so gas intensive, so that always makes Banshees stronger. Archons do beat them but in big enough groups they trade very efficiently with Archons (spread so no splash). It also means (usually) they have High Templar so then there is feedback to look out for. I'd say get the Banshees if you can afford it for extra map control and harass, but they aren't going to help you in engagements so not against any all inish Protoss.
If you play this composition in the late game though, BattleCruisers become realllllly good. They aren't effected by Hardened Shield (8/9/10/11), Archons do no splash, and they give your Siege Tanks and Ghosts the forward vision to get off EMPS and Focus Fire the slow Immortals.
As for HT, if there are Archons it's possible, just means less Archons. Use your EMP's and Snipes on them, and still focus fire the Immortals with Hellions. Archons absorb a lot more EMP's or Ghost energy in general, so as long as you trust your Ghost control it's usually better to face HT IMO.
EDIT: In response to your edit, I would add Ghosts as you take your third. I don't know what opening you are doing, but the popular ones in this thread involve opening with Banshee. I would say follow the standard of getting to 4 Banshees and quitting there, move to BC's when you have the economy (4 bases). If you are worried about dying, Banshees aren't going to help you. Banshees will help you gain an advantage in a situation where you are already safe.
I absolutely love this idea, however I don't understand the later late game, lets take antiga for example? what if youre playing macro/defensive and expanding until you realize..you have to take a 5th and 6th. How do you properly defend those expansions? You say to never push unless you do a good trade for army, but what if they disregard your main and 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th expos and just constantly deny your 5th and 6th with their 200/200 army? surely your siegeline is not long enough to cover all your bases, so what do you do at that point? Thank you!
The problem is :How do you deny these expansions ? Are you going to use something like zealots and DT warp to destroy CC and stuff like that? I'll deflect it just with PF turrets and air. So at some point if you want to deny me these bases you have to send your army there. From here different things can happen, considering i'll see you coming due to mass scan and sensor towers -I choose to intercept your army, sieging ahead of it. Usually you'll avoid to fight -I choose to sacrifice a base or two if i have enough economy and some spare CCs, and i destroy some of your bases, basically sending my ground army at one, my air army at another, and a few units to a last ones. And if we trade bases, ill win due to the fact i can just mass orbitals at home, while you cant really mass macro nexus . . . -Combination of the above : i send a few units (usually ravens for turrets, ghosts for nukes, or banshees) while letting you get in my bases. While you're destroying it , i jsut get other bases while setting a good position for my army. At this point you have to choose between slowing losing your bases one at a time, or trying to break the contain you let me do.
The idea itself of denying "late" bases is ok, but the fact is that at some point, if you really want to deny these , you have to commit to it. And due to the fact i have sensor towers, mass scans, and ability to do "passive" harass with nukes/turrets means that once you commit, you're dead
How do you actually micro mech armies? When I try out Thor/Tank/Hellions in the unit tester versus Protoss armies the mech army either loses or come out just slightly ahead. Am I missing something? How do you manage to really crush Protoss late game armies with your mech army? Please explain the micro of this in detail.
answered by ZjiublingZ (yeah, this guy is great) : + Show Spoiler +
Just Thor/Tank/Hellion? Against what army? The micro is, obviously, dependent on what you are facing. Thor/Tank/Hellion is really a 2 base Army so I guess I will address it as if you are facing a potential 2 base Protoss army... (Ask clearer or more specific questions next time, Mech is very undefined so there isn't some standard progression of a game I can assume you are talking about).
Against a 2 base Toss you will basically be facing 3 things, Immortal + Gateway heavy pushes. Colossus pushes with less Gateway support. And Archon/Chargelot compositions.
Immortal + Gateway push - Engage with Hellions as close as possible to the 14 range of Tanks, Focus fire Immortals with your Hellions as you kite the army through the siege line. #1 Priority for Tanks is Shieldless Immortals, then the biggest clumps of Gateway units, I prefer Zealots though I honestly can't say which is "better" because you do get Bonus Damage vs Stalkers. Once they are close and have engaged you, Thors in front, Hellions behind, and Tanks behind them. Focus fire Shieldless Immortals still, and that's about it.
Colossus push with less gateway support - Reallly bad against Mech IMO, simply because Siege Tanks > Colossus in a straight up fight. I just focus fire Colossus with my Siege Tanks, does a ton of damage because Colossus stand over Gateway units. Make sure to maximize the range difference between Colossus and Siege Tanks by keeping vision of the full 14 range - keep your Hellions within 5 range of Tanks to stay safe from Colossus and grant full vision. If you're tanks are clumped up and you only have 1-2 range more than him because of a lack of vision, then it becomes a thousand times scarier.
Archon + Chargelot compositions - Scary if you are caught in a bad position, EZ if you aren't. Just force the Charge with Hellions at the ~14 range, focus fire Zealots, hide the Hellions behind Thors, ignore Archons completely. They do 1 more DPS than Zealots lol, and their Splash does nothing to Thor/Tank and very little to Hellion, and they stay 3 range away so they don't force Siege Tanks to splash you.
Replays : http://www.mediafire.com/?ka8g8kx5ksjzk The folders contains old replays. I now add rep’ in zipped packs, every few days. Why that and why mediafire? because 1) I want to be able to track and manage my uploaded replays 2) You can download it without having to sign up 3) You don’t have to download one replay at a time, you can download a zipped pack of 10-15 replays which is faster and easier (Assuming everyone have a good enough connection, it’s not a problem to dl a pack imo). Until the moment i started to write the guide (20 of february) , i was only keeping wom games and using not-really-accurate names. For any replays after this day, i’ll basically name every zip pack as : “Day/Month to Day/Month”, and every replay as “Date - Matchup - Quick description of the replay” use the sort option with "created" to see them in upload order
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqd55p_lyyna-vod-001-tvp-mech_videogames -- Not really focused on commentaries for this one, this first VOD is mainly here for technical stuff
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqgb0a_lyyna-vod-002-tvp-mech_videogames -- This VOD is basically about how to play when you're behind, and how to get good informations with reduced scouting
Thanks to : People who convinced to write this guide People who kept bashing me for the last year and an half year, because they give me the motivation to show how wrong and stupid they are Goody, for every reason i gave previously Day9, for being awesome Contact : On EU server, "TvP Mech" channel, or PhX‡Lyyna.648
Thanks for reading . . .
I would also like to add something,because this is one of the best reason to play Mech instead of bio : When I play perfectly with mech, I'll win , no matter what the protoss is doing. With bio, even with the best possible play versus protoss lower than me in skill level, i can still just die to his A move / Storm carpet
what amount of banshees do you have in the midgame? Because I often end up on very few (like 3; i don't open with an early starport usually) and then his army doesn't really give a f*** about them, once an engagement happens and until he is cleaned up my bases are gone
Basically you're always producing banshee early/midgame. So you should have like 5 or 6 of these in midgame, and even without upgrades,their damage are just insane
edit: can a mod add [G] tag to the title please? forget it T_T
Ah, I've seen this build, or similar, several times on ladder. To be honest, I don't lose to it often. As protoss, you need to get colossus, phoenix, charge and templars. The phoenix and templar are key to shutting down banshees. The chargelots and colossus destroy the thors.
@Douillos : no, i don't EMP these. Storms aren't as deadly with mech, but i prefer to 'force' feedbacks, letting me time to EMP HT's and avoid storm carpets on my tank
This is really cool. I was thinking about a strategy exactly like this, using cloak banshee to survive mid game, and BC + raven at end game. Protoss is super weak to cloak because Obs are easy to pick off and tie up the Robo to rebuild. Every Obs you kill slows down Robo production and delays their push. We have seen this weakness in PvP where dts can mean instant GG but terran/zerg can survive surprise dts.
A possible counter could be Obs speed in the midgame, with a focus on babysitting the obs. Still tricky though with Thor range. Protoss would still have to play on the defensive.
Lategame -> mothership recall + warp prism could do well.
Hm dem ravens on that Shakuras game achieved BW Vessel status. You got critical mass of them and it was really hard for zerg to do anything at all. Thats all good but in the TvP games hm everything looks kinda gimmicky I will wait to see how this develops and might try it on ladder. Keep up the good work.
Watching mech tvp games is so much more interesting than bio, MORE REPLAYS :D. Also mech is not as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It's so stupidly good on Antiga if you can hold the middle, then protoss can't take a fourth base. And protoss does not kill a maxed out mech army on the high ground backed up by planetarys and turrets.
I've lost Mech vs Mech TvT's because I just didn't have the patience to try to win against someone who only builds tanks and turrets. Not saying it's a bad, just the most boring slow uneventful and easy to execute style in the game.
@Saechoos : slow? yes. unentful? well, your opponent (in TvP) will usually create 'events'. Easy to execute? I just can't agree with that. It's the same as zerg saying mass marines is ez
Good guide! Playing mech makes Starcraft much more intesting. More strategic less arcade. I think bio into bioair into air is easier to use compared to mech but I will look through the replays and experiment with this style.
2 questions. 1. At what time in game do you add the 3 starports? Is that the same time as you start PFing the middle? 2. Is there any specific maps you veto that sucks for mech ?
A good start. I think you should do a section on how to engage, when/where to siege, how to react to harass, and when to get vikings. Also maybe a section on massing orbitals and sacrificing SCVs in the late game.
On March 24 2012 01:58 eXeprOxy wrote: 2 questions. 1. At what time in game do you add the 3 starports? Is that the same time as you start PFing the middle? 2. Is there any specific maps you veto that sucks for mech ?
1) Basically,when you start to float gas while maxed or nearly maxed. It's up to you to judge if you can get then before getting maxed without too much risk, or if you need to wait and replenish with BC after fighting
2)the only map i veto is tal'darim, and it's because of TvZ basically :p
@ Crocodile : i'll probably cover that in the vods, as this is kinda difficult to write
Protoss When you cant amove in something Its retarded and shitty
LOOOL! that made my day
But I don't really understand why you wait so long to attack, like in the game vs frammer on antiga, you say you wait until toss has thrown away a few expensive armies, and this is evident in this game as you don't move out until the army supply lost is like 20k you vs 40k him, but by the time you actually push and engage him again he is maxed anyway, and has a huuuuge bank compared to you. Now im not trying to criticize or say this is bad, you should have pushed earlier blah blah blah I'm just trying to understand your reasoning for such passive play
On March 24 2012 00:22 Lyyna wrote: Basically you're always producing banshee early/midgame. So you should have like 5 or 6 of these in midgame, and even without upgrades,their damage are just insane
edit: can a mod add [G] tag to the title please? forget it T_T
Doesn't one stalker beat one banshee? I know you assume PDD's will be on the field, but you make banshees sound godlike.
I've been meching in TvP for a little while now, and I find your guide quite helpful/accurate. The only major problem I've encountered while meching is when playing too passive/defensive in a late game my opponent masses carriers. I realize allowing this to occur can be thought of as the problem, however when being passive aside from banshees and this happens how do I deal with it? I've massed Vikings with some BCs to tank and even seeker missiled but Protoss air kept causing problems. Without a lot of marines are large amounts of carriers dealwithable as mech? What do you suggest aside from not letting him get a good amount of them?
On March 24 2012 00:22 Lyyna wrote: Basically you're always producing banshee early/midgame. So you should have like 5 or 6 of these in midgame, and even without upgrades,their damage are just insane
edit: can a mod add [G] tag to the title please? forget it T_T
Doesn't one stalker beat one banshee? I know you assume PDD's will be on the field, but you make banshees sound godlike.
@BigBossX : in fact, a 'good game' for me is a game in which i never push. Especially because i'm really bad at spotting good push timings in TvP . . . so that's why i prefer to camp
@Norseman : thanks
@Heyjude : no, 1 banshee beats 1 stalker . and as long as they're cloak and obs are sniped, their dps is just godlike x)
@Thirst : basically, to deal with carriers,i use ravens, BC, and ghost. Ghosts destroy intercepts,and allows to do 1st AOE damage. Ravens then destroy the 'main ball' of carriers,and BC finish these (there is a good amount of games where i do beat mass carriers lategame)
Thanks for writing this guide. I've been fooling around with mech for the past few weeks with mixed results.
I have a few questions. Keep in mind I'm only plat. 1. Is it worth building vikings via reactored port if you see collosus midgame? I usually end up losing more than he does without vikings (only my banshees generally survive). 2. If you see HT's do you tend to EMP your thors, or just snipe/EMP his HT's? 3. Ravens. I've massed them very rarely. How do they beat VR's / Carriers? With HSM?
On March 24 2012 02:41 mosfet wrote: Thanks for writing this guide. I've been fooling around with mech for the past few weeks with mixed results.
I have a few questions. Keep in mind I'm only plat. 1. Is it worth building vikings via reactored port if you see collosus midgame? I usually end up losing more than he does without vikings (only my banshees generally survive). 2. If you see HT's do you tend to EMP your thors, or just snipe/EMP his HT's? 3. Ravens. I've massed them very rarely. How do they beat VR's / Carriers? With HSM?
With bombing run queues, shift rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr then queue move away from the army, the ravens will drop their bombs then immediately retreat.
On March 24 2012 00:22 Lyyna wrote: Basically you're always producing banshee early/midgame. So you should have like 5 or 6 of these in midgame, and even without upgrades,their damage are just insane
edit: can a mod add [G] tag to the title please? forget it T_T
attack upgrades dont scale well with banshees so they barely help at all and massing banshees is generally a bad idea since the banshees still attack against targets that might already die to the missiles on the way to hit the unit
game 1 - The toss gets a fairly early Twilight then instead of going blink/obs(which would have wrecked you, and is the logical counter to banshees) he techs DTs. You didn't win that game because mech/banshee is amazing. You won because your opponent was retarded.
game 2 - The toss does a 2gate/robo expand. He could have harassed the crap out of you when were trying to move out and expand but he did nothing. Then he all-ins you with a stalker/immortal/collosi force, in a battle where your PDDs werent even placed right and were worthless. His army comp was horrendous and he knew exactly what was coming. 15 zealots would have gone a long way in this fight.
game 3 - You kill a bunch of his probes with one cloaked banshee. For some unknown reason he decides to get one stalker then warp in 5 sentries. lol? Once again your toss opponent doesn't even poke with his stalker(s), which is incredibly stupid. I don't know what level opponents you're playing but I really don't think they're as high as you claim to be. I'm low masters and I'm a lot better than the 3 toss players I've seen you face already.
game 4 - Your opponent has no detection when your cloaked banshee hits at 9 minutes. Srs? I don't know why any toss wouldn't open 2gate-robo, especially after seeing the expand by you.
game 5 - I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but your opponent was terrible. You opened with 2 rax vs 15 nexus. He throws away his probes, doesn't make a single sentry, etc. Tbh I don't know if 15 nexus can even hold your proxy rax without taking heavy losses, but he made one zealot then 4 stalkers, stupid response.
I'm not saying mech/banshee isn't a viable strat but I think you're playing toss players at a much lower level than you so it wouldn't have mattered what your army comp was. Any time I see a FE I go 2gate/robo blink and pressure his main to keep him honest. I didn't see that in any of your games, and in all the games your opponent had decent scouting so he knew you were FE.
And your opponents seemed rather clueless about army comp. One game you had mostly thors and blue flame hellions. Your opponent masses zealots that game. There was another game the toss knew exactly what you had and countered with the worst comp possible. Iirc you had tanks/thors/marines and he went stalker/collosi/immortal but his army was 30 supply lower than yours anyway. Any time I see a Terran make a thor or tank I immediately shift my comp to include more zealots.
Maybe protoss players are too willing to go mid-late game and just macro up but as I already mentioned, most terran FE's are very vulnerable to good blink/obs harass.
*One last edit lol...I think one reason your build works well for you is the banshees give you great scouting and as long as you don't encounter early blink you'll never lose a banshee so they're extremely cost-efficient.
I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
As a protoss player this style is a lot easier to deal with than traditional bio. If you want to play this inferior strategy at least commit to an allin like a Man
On March 24 2012 03:27 Telsh wrote: As a protoss player this style is a lot easier to deal with than traditional bio. If you want to play this inferior strategy at least commit to an allin like a Man
1v1 me Crocodile 703 we'll post the replay and see who has the 'inferior' play. Put up or shut up.
On March 24 2012 03:27 Telsh wrote: As a protoss player this style is a lot easier to deal with than traditional bio. If you want to play this inferior strategy at least commit to an allin like a Man
1v1 me Crocodile 703 we'll post the replay and see who has the 'inferior' play.
I just can't understand why people make unproductive, useless posts like that. At least HeyJude gave analysis for why he disagreed (which I hope to shut down with my own replays). If Telsh thinks his play is so good and he can't lose to mech then let's play a bo3 and find out.
I watched your replay breach. At ~10 minutes he has blink and doesn't bother poking around the fringes of your base. You had hellions(get wrecked by stalkers) and 2 tanks with a bunker. He could have easily done a ton of damage to you. Playing against bio it's nearly impossible harassing with blink b/c of conc shells.
Awesome game, it's cool to see how it works even in GM, if you could upload more games, that would be totally cool.. Nice crisp build order and execution, very nice game..
@Mosfet 1)A few vikings are ok, but i still prefer banshee. Basically if he's massing colossus, he's cutting his air, so i suggest to go earlier for BC (i'll add that in the questions section, good one) 2)I never EMP my units, as i said earlier, to force feedbacks, because storms can be a bit painful due to the fact i got some air in my army 3) Yes,with HSM. and turrets are nice too @Heyjude : Yes, most of my protoss opponents are really awful. This is something that desesperate me because i play really good Z and T, but most toss are here because . . well,they're toss (without offense, i've to say that for me, protoss is a race that allows you to go high in the ladder brainlessly. Scary to face Dimaga or Kas in a game,and then run into a protoss which is on 2 bases with 1/1 uppgrades at 20 min . . with 0 harass from my side) . There is however really good replays of protoss showing heavy harass.
Your main concern seems to be blink pressure, and it was mine of my biggest too. But on 2 bases, basically,a stalker pressure can't hit before i get thors, except if he commits a lot to this. So basically you're going to run into -Big marine army (reactor rax,remember) -+1 armor thor with mass repair (you're in my base so ...) -I always get a raven early -Cloakshee (so i can just snipe obs with thors) And that's also the goal of going cloaked banshee : Are you going to take all your stalkers and leave your base to harass,when you know there is at least 2 banshees on the map, already poking in your bases? There is also some mind games involved, as i want to protoss to think he can't leave to attack. That's the point of these nice air maidens.
@KAmaKAsa: I don't 'mass' banshees. But having like 4-8 helps a lot,as their damage are already really high, and cloak makes them 'invincible' as long as i snipe obs
@TangSC : as i said in my guide, Goody's mech was relying a lot's on BFH and he wasn't making ghosts . . so immortal buff and BFH nerf killed it Yes , i honestly think pro can do something with mech. But the fact is that pro are usually the people who are the least going to try to be original, they prefer to stay on standard strats
@Telsh : they all say that when they spot my factories,armories and thors. And usually, they're insulting me of 'imba terran noob' 20 minutes later.
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
@Heyjude : Yes, most of my protoss opponents are really awful. This is something that desesperate me because i play really good Z and T, but most toss are here because . . well,they're toss (without offense, i've to say that for me, protoss is a race that allows you to go high in the ladder brainlessly. Scary to face Dimaga or Kas in a game,and then run into a protoss which is on 2 bases with 1/1 uppgrades at 20 min . . with 0 harass from my side) . There is however really good replays of protoss showing heavy harass.
Your main concern seems to be blink pressure, and it was mine of my biggest too. But on 2 bases, basically,a stalker pressure can't hit before i get thors, except if he commits a lot to this. So basically you're going to run into -Big marine army (reactor rax,remember) -+1 armor thor with mass repair (you're in my base so ...) -I always get a raven early -Cloakshee (so i can just snipe obs with thors) And that's also the goal of going cloaked banshee : Are you going to take all your stalkers and leave your base to harass,when you know there is at least 2 banshees on the map, already poking in your bases? There is also some mind games involved, as i want to protoss to think he can't leave to attack. That's the point of these nice air maidens.
If he's harassing your front you'll probably use your first banshee defensively. That first banshee seems to usually do a lot of damage to your opponent so if they see it while at your base rather than at their mineral line it would really weaken its harass value and prepare the toss.
Am I the only toss who chronos out first first 2-3 stalkers to harass the front? Unless I see a marauder with conc shell there's no reason for my stalker(s) to leave your entrance.
Btw, my usual build is 1gate->cyber->chrono stalker/warp->expand->robo->gate
I'm not really sure why a toss wouldn't get the early robo unless you're planning on pushing real early off one base.
you're not the only one doing it, but that's the point of early bunker,and well placed first marines
And well, usually if a blink pressure come,my 1st banshee will already be near the protoss base . So he has to chrono another obs, warping banshees at home ,while still having half of the map between his 'push' and my base. And the current metagame makes 4 gate follow-up really common. Remember that you see only marines until the 1st banshee start to poke,except if i 111 expo, so you don't know if i'm going to bio when you choose your follow-up. And even after u choose to do a robo tech for example . . you need to get that obs to my base to see i'm going mech
On March 24 2012 04:14 Lyyna wrote: you're not the only one doing it, but that's the point of early bunker,and well placed first marines
And well, usually if a blink pressure come,my 1st banshee will already be near the protoss base . So he has to chrono another obs, warping banshees at home ,while still having half of the map between his 'push' and my base. And the current metagame makes 4 gate follow-up really common. Remember that you see only marines until the 1st banshee start to poke,except if i 111 expo, so you don't know if i'm going to bio when you choose your follow-up. And even after u choose to do a robo tech for example . . you need to get that obs to my base to see i'm going mech
As I said I really feel the toss players in the replay pack I watched were less than great :/ I've played against a similar strat a couple times and crushed it, but I also countered/scouted.
Is there replays of you losing? We all know there's no one-build-fits-all strat so I'm sure there's counters besides the stalker/blink stalker I mentioned.
Really Awesome Guide! I always had a soft spot for Goody, since he isn't exactly great at any particular aspect of mechanics, and everyone knows exactly what he was going to do.......... and yet he still wins. This new style sounds so awesome. Your ironic rules made me lol pretty hard. "“When do you push?” ? Ahahah, good joke. The answer is simple : NEVER."
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
i think lyynna replay has better quality than you,in term of opponents.
Ah, good point. Really great post man, I especially liked the parts where you constructively critiqued my play while explaining the flaws in my opponents' play that made them inferior to those of Lyyna, instead of just posting your unsupported opinion and making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
Awesome game, it's cool to see how it works even in GM, if you could upload more games, that would be totally cool.. Nice crisp build order and execution, very nice game..
On March 24 2012 04:14 Lyyna wrote: you're not the only one doing it, but that's the point of early bunker,and well placed first marines
And well, usually if a blink pressure come,my 1st banshee will already be near the protoss base . So he has to chrono another obs, warping banshees at home ,while still having half of the map between his 'push' and my base. And the current metagame makes 4 gate follow-up really common. Remember that you see only marines until the 1st banshee start to poke,except if i 111 expo, so you don't know if i'm going to bio when you choose your follow-up. And even after u choose to do a robo tech for example . . you need to get that obs to my base to see i'm going mech
As I said I really feel the toss players in the replay pack I watched were less than great :/ I've played against a similar strat a couple times and crushed it, but I also countered/scouted.
Is there replays of you losing? We all know there's no one-build-fits-all strat so I'm sure there's counters besides the stalker/blink stalker I mentioned.
Well,there is good and bad toss. But protoss's skill level , even here in high master/Low GM is kinda awful. So you have to dig a bit to find good rep' :/
I'll start to add replays of me loosing if i think they are interesting. But for example my 2 lasts loss with this build was because, in one case, i got supply blocked for like 2 minutes early game (note to myself : never play again at 3am with only 4 hours sleep last night) for one, and because i forgot siege mode in the other. . . .
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
i think lyynna replay has better quality than you,in term of opponents.
Ah, good point. Really great post man, I especially liked the parts where you constructively critiqued my play while explaining the flaws in my opponents' play that made them inferior to those of Lyyna, instead of just posting your unsupported opinion and making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Awesome game, it's cool to see how it works even in GM, if you could upload more games, that would be totally cool.. Nice crisp build order and execution, very nice game..
how to download that replay?
Click on "Replay letöltés" under the replay description.. :DD Ye, I had some problems too lol..
Awesome game, it's cool to see how it works even in GM, if you could upload more games, that would be totally cool.. Nice crisp build order and execution, very nice game..
how to download that replay?
Click on the red 'Replay letöltés' under the main portion.
I think people are missing the point about this build here. Regardless of whether its viable at a high level or if the opponents are bad, you can win in high master league with it. Meaning it is fun and viable for 99% of sc2 players. If you've never experienced the satisfaction that is ANNIHILATING a maxed Templar/colossus/chargelot ball, i recommend you try it.
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
i think lyynna replay has better quality than you,in term of opponents.
Ah, good point. Really great post man, I especially liked the parts where you constructively critiqued my play while explaining the flaws in my opponents' play that made them inferior to those of Lyyna, instead of just posting your unsupported opinion and making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Did you only watch game 1? Game 1 was the weakest opponent out of all the replays. Game 4 and game 3 are much higher quality. Plus it was still a master league opponent. Better than 98% of protosses by rank
On March 24 2012 04:40 crocodile wrote: I think people are missing the point about this build here. Regardless of whether its viable at a high level or if the opponents are bad, you can win in high master league with it. Meaning it is fun and viable for 99% of sc2 players. If you've never experienced the satisfaction that is ANNIHILATING a maxed Templar/colossus/chargelot ball, i recommend you try it.
This is pretty much spot on.. Not to mention Breach's gm game..
Stop hating just to hate. Personally I'm not gearing up to play in the next GSL, so I don't care if it it's 'most efficient' way or the 'best way to beat Protoss'. For me it's the most fun way to play and, I don't know about you, but I play a GAME to have FUN.
So you don't like it? You don't think it's viable? You have no interest in trying to help or offering positive feedback? Then close this thread. This isn't for you.
Honestly, I only watched the first replay, but it did seem like a very poor game to learn anything from. You were floating 1k Minerals by 10:00, he was floating 1k+/1k+ at 15:00 and was at 1/0/0 upgrades. You didn't scout his hidden third, and so (I'm assuming this is the reason) you delayed your third A TON when you could have had it probably 3-4 minutes earlier. When you pushed you had a 30 supply lead, ~180 to ~150, and neither of you had done any real economic damage to each other. The differences in Macro, and the big flaws in your strategies make it really hard to learn anything from that replay, other than macro is really important (and that Masters players don't have very good macro). I don't think you should post replays like that at all, they just add to the stupid back and forth debates about "You won because of X, not because of Mech", and fair enough, in that game, you did win because of macro.
@Breach_Hu
That was an awesome replay, highest level game I've seen of Mech posted. Everyone should check this game out, and please post more!
On March 24 2012 04:45 ZjiublingZ wrote: @Crocodile
Honestly, I only watched the first replay, but it did seem like a very poor game to learn anything from. You were floating 1k Minerals by 10:00, he was floating 1k+/1k+ at 15:00 and was at 1/0/0 upgrades. You didn't scout his hidden third, and so (I'm assuming this is the reason) you delayed your third A TON when you could have had it probably 3-4 minutes earlier. When you pushed you had a 30 supply lead, ~180 to ~150, and neither of you had done any real economic damage to each other. The differences in Macro, and the big flaws in your strategies make it really hard to learn anything from that replay, other than macro is really important (and that Masters players don't have very good macro). I don't think you should post replays like that at all, they just add to the stupid back and forth debates about "You won because of X, not because of Mech", and fair enough, in that game, you did win because of macro.
@Breach_Hu
That was an awesome replay, highest level game I've seen of Mech posted. Everyone should check this game out, and please post more!
Watch the other replays, they are much higher quality.
I always find it kind of funny when I manage to both out expo, out army produce as well as out tech my toss opponents; all while going mech, because they're so used to the standard hard turtle into deathball vs bio.
I keep looking for whatever it is I must be missing but apparently him starting a third at 20 min vs my fourth (while playing a passive nr20 game) is apparently what is happening. Then I realise I'd probably still lose to that guy going bio...
And then comes the whine, "not even a move"* is probably my favorite.
-----
*After me performing a few very careful; slow, siege pushes that gave him ample time to bm and edge me on while performing his apparently harder than a-move strat (Or a-move strat for that matter as much as it makes me shudder).
On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote: Well,there is good and bad toss. But protoss's skill level , even here in high master/Low GM is kinda awful. So you have to dig a bit to find good rep' :/
Well I'm not going to disagree with this statement My APM rarely breaks 50 and I'm low masters as toss :/ But there's very basic things your opponents were doing wrong that even I do right.
On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote:I'll start to add replays of me loosing if i think they are interesting. But for example my 2 lasts loss with this build was because, in one case, i got supply blocked for like 2 minutes early game (note to myself : never play again at 3am with only 4 hours sleep last night) for one, and because i forgot siege mode in the other. . . .
I really think you have to include replays of losses. Otherwise it's a safe assumption you're just playing vs baddies unless you have specific replays vs high masters or GM.
On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote: Well,there is good and bad toss. But protoss's skill level , even here in high master/Low GM is kinda awful. So you have to dig a bit to find good rep' :/
Well I'm not going to disagree with this statement My APM rarely breaks 50 and I'm low masters as toss :/ But there's very basic things your opponents were doing wrong that even I do right.
On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote:I'll start to add replays of me loosing if i think they are interesting. But for example my 2 lasts loss with this build was because, in one case, i got supply blocked for like 2 minutes early game (note to myself : never play again at 3am with only 4 hours sleep last night) for one, and because i forgot siege mode in the other. . . .
I really think you have to include replays of losses. Otherwise it's a safe assumption you're just playing vs baddies unless you have specific replays vs high masters or GM.
apm isn't really important. I'm one of these players who show that x)
Yes,i'll add loss now. Basically these replays packs wasn't here to make a guide, but only to show my style on some special places. So i didn't included loss . . i'll do now. But if you care about my opponent's rank you can just check it on sc2Ranks,and see the lowest are mid master (loosing streak ftw) and the highest are . well, top 50 gm
As some people were asking for losses here's a laddergame I've played vs Lyyna yesterday on EU ladder, around 1000pts master. It felt kind of easy playing against him (much easier than vs bio terrans. I think mech depends a lot on the Protoss player making mistakes,
oh that is an interesting mech style, thanks for this guide. Went into bio lately though, so i can play mass reapers lategame against toss, but will fiddle around this when i am getting bored of jetpacks !
@Kaito : funny game. I failed my build (so it's nothing about the protoss here) . I launched a 2nd factory instead of the starport and ended up in a midgame situation without banshee , so 0 harassment, and impossible for me to "easy win" midgame fights abusing cloak, and i got gas starved a lot. Also don't have my usual sensor tower at 3rd, so no position advantage for me So in fact the only point of this replay would be to show why banshee are so good with mech and what happens when you don't make these (and when i saw the fail 2Nd fact i basically gave up and stopped to follow my build, because i know i was knowing i was in a shitty position, unable to harass/deny expo, and unable to win most straight fight)
Especially in this game, the 1st banshee could have arrived in your base when your obs was reaching mine,with all your stalkers out of position . . .so it could have ripped your minerals line
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
i think lyynna replay has better quality than you,in term of opponents.
Ah, good point. Really great post man, I especially liked the parts where you constructively critiqued my play while explaining the flaws in my opponents' play that made them inferior to those of Lyyna, instead of just posting your unsupported opinion and making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Did you only watch game 1? Game 1 was the weakest opponent out of all the replays. Game 4 and game 3 are much higher quality. Plus it was still a master league opponent. Better than 98% of protosses by rank
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Game 2 @ standard bad protoss who scout and saw gas and still expand into 4 gate ,so basicly he far behind in term of tech.His macro very poor too @ 19 min he got +1 armour with 1600 gas ... wtf ?
Game 3 (Nap) @ protoss is stupid @ first battle . eventhough he saw 3 factory,he still attacking without seeing your army composition.So at this point protoss fucking far behind. he can do better than that such as sit infront of your base while sending his unit @ your 3rd (he doesn't even know that you got 3rd )
Game 4 (potato) @ yet again protoss scout and saw your gas but he going into 4 gate into 3 base so at this point with his delay tech your banshee can do so much damage than normal.And his macro so poor, @ 21 min he only got 2/2 with 1000+ gas save up .
so basicly, all of your opponents was so bad bad bad bad . .. . . -_-
-You know he isn’t fast expanding (second fast gas, adding gates,etc).
It may be dated but stalker-sentry-sentry expo will generally take second gas at like 20 supply, even sometimes before the nexus if the stalker has a scout to kill first (scout would see gas before nex)
On March 24 2012 04:45 ZjiublingZ wrote: @Crocodile
Honestly, I only watched the first replay, but it did seem like a very poor game to learn anything from. You were floating 1k Minerals by 10:00, he was floating 1k+/1k+ at 15:00 and was at 1/0/0 upgrades. You didn't scout his hidden third, and so (I'm assuming this is the reason) you delayed your third A TON when you could have had it probably 3-4 minutes earlier. When you pushed you had a 30 supply lead, ~180 to ~150, and neither of you had done any real economic damage to each other. The differences in Macro, and the big flaws in your strategies make it really hard to learn anything from that replay, other than macro is really important (and that Masters players don't have very good macro). I don't think you should post replays like that at all, they just add to the stupid back and forth debates about "You won because of X, not because of Mech", and fair enough, in that game, you did win because of macro.
@Breach_Hu
That was an awesome replay, highest level game I've seen of Mech posted. Everyone should check this game out, and please post more!
Watch the other replays, they are much higher quality.
Good guide. You could specify some details in how you fine-tune your siege line and slow advance and other important stuff. But what I'm wondering most is, how do you have the patience for 30+ minute long games every time?!?
On March 24 2012 05:10 Lyyna wrote: @Kaito : funny game. I failed my build (so it's nothing about the protoss here) . I launched a 2nd factory instead of the starport and ended up in a midgame situation without banshee , so 0 harassment, and impossible for me to "easy win" midgame fights abusing cloak, and i got gas starved a lot. Also don't have my usual sensor tower at 3rd, so no position advantage for me So in fact the only point of this replay would be to show why banshee are so good with mech and what happens when you don't make these (and when i saw the fail 2Nd fact i basically gave up and stopped to follow my build, because i know i was knowing i was in a shitty position, unable to harass/deny expo, and unable to win most straight fight)
Especially in this game, the 1st banshee could have arrived in your base when your obs was reaching mine,with all your stalkers out of position . . .so it could have ripped your minerals line
Even if you made your usual starport on time your banshee doesn't reach his base until 8-9 minutes. He had 2 observers out by 7:15. I think this game as well as the other games shows that the better player usually wins. Kaito has some amazing macro and game sense, as well as a very crisp build. I don't necessarily even agree with the unit comp he had but he outplayed you anyway.
In the next week, i will make a replay pack with around 20 replays with mech working/not working. i usually do hellion heavy style with 1factory tank and 1sp/rax for banshee ghost and timing push when i go for 3rd. i only camp againts stalker heavy compos.
@Kaitokid : thanks. Hm, Usually you should be able to scout it by hiding your scv somewhere and scouting again around 35 supply (to see these later expo)
@Aren : thanks. These things will be said in the VOD (i will do the first on sunday i guess). Yes,i do have the patience to do it. Because i prefer to do 30+minutes games where i'm sure to win as long as i play perfectly, than 15 minutes game where i can play perfectly and still by roflstomped by a protoss A move
@Heyjude : If i'm doing a 111 expo or my new 1 rax reactor expo , my banshee can sometimes be here before 8 minutes. he does have . . 2 sentry to defend it. And at least , even if i don't get too much probes's kill , i can at least roam on the map, killing pylons, probes, units at xel'naga, deying 3rd, forcing units and obs to stay at home,etc. Even if they don't get any kills, they allows me to have some time to set up my midgame. And it's normal that he outplayed me,as i said i basically gave up when i saw my stupid build fail , knowing i couldn't win any midgame fight in that situation. In fact this is one of my personal problem : as soon as i realise i failed in something, i'm going into "loosing mindset" . . and even if i'm able to limit it to big fails . well, being unable to exploit the core of my strategy is REALLY a big fail. I mean, it's like a zerg who wants to baneling bust somebody , makes a billion of lings . . and realise he built a roaches warren
Does anyone have TvP mech replays with mech timing attacks? I used to do weird mech builds in TvP, with marines / thor / banshees / tanks / hellions (yeah that's a lot of units =D) attacking at weird timings but I don't think I have the replays anymore
On March 24 2012 05:21 Poopi wrote: Does anyone have TvP mech replays with mech timing attacks? I used to do weird mech builds in TvP, with marines / thor / banshees / tanks / hellions (yeah that's a lot of units =D) attacking at weird timings but I don't think I have the replays anymore
you can watch Jakjji or supernova or startale_virus with some crazy marine thor hellion banshee all in.
On March 24 2012 05:21 Poopi wrote: Does anyone have TvP mech replays with mech timing attacks? I used to do weird mech builds in TvP, with marines / thor / banshees / tanks / hellions (yeah that's a lot of units =D) attacking at weird timings but I don't think I have the replays anymore
you can watch Jakjji or supernova or startale_virus with some crazy marine thor hellion banshee all in.
I'm not really looking for all-ins, just timing attacks, not necessarily to end the game
On March 24 2012 05:16 Lyyna wrote: At which supply do you plant down the nexus with that build?
You can plant it down when the first stalker is like half done, but scout would see it, so just immediatly after killing scouting probe or confirming nat is clear with stalker. Not sure if chrono'd stalker or not, its like a 6 month old opener but it is still around a game here and there i think
On March 24 2012 05:21 Poopi wrote: Does anyone have TvP mech replays with mech timing attacks? I used to do weird mech builds in TvP, with marines / thor / banshees / tanks / hellions (yeah that's a lot of units =D) attacking at weird timings but I don't think I have the replays anymore
you can watch Jakjji or supernova or startale_virus with some crazy marine thor hellion banshee all in.
I'm not really looking for all-ins, just timing attacks, not necessarily to end the game
On March 24 2012 05:16 Lyyna wrote: At which supply do you plant down the nexus with that build?
You can plant it down when the first stalker is like half done, but scout would see it, so just immediatly after killing scouting probe or confirming nat is clear with stalker. Not sure if chrono'd stalker or not, its like a 6 month old opener but it is still around a game here and there i think
Theres no reason to get a 2nd gas if you plant down the Nexus when the stalker is half done, because you can get a sentry after the stalker anyway even with 1 gas when you don't chrono the Stalker. And if you do decide to chrono theres no way to have 400 minerals for a Nexus when the stalker is half done and you took 2 gas. So something must be wrong in your statement.
Actually I just got meched, and I cried. But honestly I think I just lost because I hadn't faced a mech build in like three thousand games. It was like "whoa hellions in my mineral line, i didnt even know he was making any". But I loved this guide nonetheless, and I always love to see players innovating. +1!!!
On March 24 2012 05:21 Poopi wrote: Does anyone have TvP mech replays with mech timing attacks? I used to do weird mech builds in TvP, with marines / thor / banshees / tanks / hellions (yeah that's a lot of units =D) attacking at weird timings but I don't think I have the replays anymore
(Just wanna say . . . it's ok to use this post to share some good replays of TvP mech, but this is "Lyyna's guide for TvP mech", not "a special place created by Lyyna to share TvP mech replays" )
Everlong and faust explained it right. Allows me to get critics (this is in fact the first time i do try to explain my whole play and mindset), to get visibility by updating it often
edit : dafuq? there is replays . . . Read the totality of the guide before saying this .
On March 24 2012 06:28 ProxyKnoxy wrote: It's pretty inexcusable not to include replays when you release a 'guide', but whatever floats your boat I guess.
Wow, way to read thoroughly, Captain Observant.
You can find the replays right under the part where he says
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
i think lyynna replay has better quality than you,in term of opponents.
Ah, good point. Really great post man, I especially liked the parts where you constructively critiqued my play while explaining the flaws in my opponents' play that made them inferior to those of Lyyna, instead of just posting your unsupported opinion and making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Did you only watch game 1? Game 1 was the weakest opponent out of all the replays. Game 4 and game 3 are much higher quality. Plus it was still a master league opponent. Better than 98% of protosses by rank
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Game 2 @ standard bad protoss who scout and saw gas and still expand into 4 gate ,so basicly he far behind in term of tech.His macro very poor too @ 19 min he got +1 armour with 1600 gas ... wtf ?
Game 3 (Nap) @ protoss is stupid @ first battle . eventhough he saw 3 factory,he still attacking without seeing your army composition.So at this point protoss fucking far behind. he can do better than that such as sit infront of your base while sending his unit @ your 3rd (he doesn't even know that you got 3rd )
Game 4 (potato) @ yet again protoss scout and saw your gas but he going into 4 gate into 3 base so at this point with his delay tech your banshee can do so much damage than normal.And his macro so poor, @ 21 min he only got 2/2 with 1000+ gas save up .
so basicly, all of your opponents was so bad bad bad bad . .. . . -_-
The Protosses in Lyyna's games did these same things... If your point is that even in Master league, most Protosses suck, then I'd agree with you. If you don't think the games are better than Lyyna's, that's fine because I never said they were. If you have something productive to add, I'd encourage you to do so.
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though.
i think lyynna replay has better quality than you,in term of opponents.
Ah, good point. Really great post man, I especially liked the parts where you constructively critiqued my play while explaining the flaws in my opponents' play that made them inferior to those of Lyyna, instead of just posting your unsupported opinion and making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Did you only watch game 1? Game 1 was the weakest opponent out of all the replays. Game 4 and game 3 are much higher quality. Plus it was still a master league opponent. Better than 98% of protosses by rank
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Game 2 @ standard bad protoss who scout and saw gas and still expand into 4 gate ,so basicly he far behind in term of tech.His macro very poor too @ 19 min he got +1 armour with 1600 gas ... wtf ?
Game 3 (Nap) @ protoss is stupid @ first battle . eventhough he saw 3 factory,he still attacking without seeing your army composition.So at this point protoss fucking far behind. he can do better than that such as sit infront of your base while sending his unit @ your 3rd (he doesn't even know that you got 3rd )
Game 4 (potato) @ yet again protoss scout and saw your gas but he going into 4 gate into 3 base so at this point with his delay tech your banshee can do so much damage than normal.And his macro so poor, @ 21 min he only got 2/2 with 1000+ gas save up .
so basicly, all of your opponents was so bad bad bad bad . .. . . -_-
The Protosses in Lyyna's games did these same things... If your point is that even in Master league, most Protosses suck, then I'd agree with you. If you don't think the games are better than Lyyna's, that's fine because I never said they were. If you have something productive to add, I'd encourage you to do so.
How do you handle early Blink stalkers with this build? Honestly that's been the number 1 thing that's always killed Mech and Sky openers for me. The lack of early MM makes it nearly impossible to hold off without staying on one base for far too long, and then 2 bases for a long time, and by the time you can take your third the Protoss has his fourth and, well...... you're dead.
This was a big problem for me too for a long time Basically,you need to scout it (easy ro see there's something strange happened : : no expo by 5 30 / 5 45, lack of sentry and zealot, double early gas). At this point it can mainly be -DT -Some strange delayed VR (due to the gas invested in stalkers) -Warp prism -blink
Basically, depending of your build, you should be able to get a raven and a viking (111 expo) making it ok versus DT, VR and WP. You'll also have a good amount of marines (early reactor), and one tank ready to go. so well, 111 is the safest about that
with 1 rax reactor expo, it's ok too, because you'll have a huge amount of marines, and if you scouted it, you should have a tank half way done
with 1 rax double gas . . never faced it . . it'll will be hard to handle because you have only marines,and less than the reactor expo
Basically,some things common to the 3 builds : - Do not hesitate to pull SCV - Deny him the possibility to fight near a cliff (so no blink away) - Do not A move your Marines ! You need to do some focus focus (or spread your fire with little groups of 4-5 marines on each stalker) to make blink micro impossible due to burst damage, or hard because of all stalkers going down at the same time
This can work, but to make the early game build is extremly hard mate. I tried it and tried to do the same timings on buildings and geysers as in your 1-1-1 expand replay, but I always ended up with way to much gas that cant be spend or way to little minerals compared to the gas I got.
I recomand everyone try this, tho. The lategame army cannot be beaten.
you gotta add in caps somewhere to include turret range in the midgame always. Its the best underused mech upgrade in the game and its a must. They stop warprpisms easyer, observers and blink gayshitness and if you have them across your tank line they really help aswell dealing some extra dps vs collosus when toss is bad (most of them are), stops observer scouting and thus keeps your cloacked ghosts or in your case the shees alive.
you gotta add in caps somewhere to include turret range in the midgame always. Its the best underused mech upgrade in the game and its a must. They stop warprpisms easyer, observers and blink gayshitness and if you have them across your tank line they really help aswell dealing some extra dps vs collosus when toss is bad (most of them are), stops observer scouting and thus keeps your cloacked ghosts or in your case the shees alive.
This is really awesome, I haven't read all of it but I think it is going to help get me playing again. It was too frustrating playing TvP and losing no matter how well I played. I've been wanting to mech in TvP but I could never get it to work.
On March 25 2012 00:57 Tennet wrote: This is really awesome, I haven't read all of it but I think it is going to help get me playing again. It was too frustrating playing TvP and losing no matter how well I played. I've been wanting to mech in TvP but I could never get it to work.
You might get frustrated though; this style is not a new way to get easy wins in tvp, it requires patience and care to pull off.
On March 25 2012 00:57 Tennet wrote: This is really awesome, I haven't read all of it but I think it is going to help get me playing again. It was too frustrating playing TvP and losing no matter how well I played. I've been wanting to mech in TvP but I could never get it to work.
You might get frustrated though; this style is not a new way to get easy wins in tvp, it requires patience and care to pull off.
Yeah. As far as I can tell, it's like playing Mech vs Bio, except the enemy bio auto-spreads and you do as much splash damage to it as to thors. The point is to basically turtle and slowly move up, without really pushing until after the Protoss has gotten bored and suicided 5 maxed armies into your siege line.
On March 25 2012 00:57 Tennet wrote: This is really awesome, I haven't read all of it but I think it is going to help get me playing again. It was too frustrating playing TvP and losing no matter how well I played. I've been wanting to mech in TvP but I could never get it to work.
You might get frustrated though; this style is not a new way to get easy wins in tvp, it requires patience and care to pull off.
Yeah. As far as I can tell, it's like playing Mech vs Bio, except the enemy bio auto-spreads and you do as much splash damage to it as to thors. The point is to basically turtle and slowly move up, without really pushing until after the Protoss has gotten bored and suicided 5 maxed armies into your siege line.
I've done a similar style in other match ups, besides this style rewards you for hard work. I like that, bio rewards you for being 12x better than the P in every aspect.
The point is to basically turtle and slowly move up, without really pushing until after the Protoss has gotten bored and suicided 5 maxed armies into your siege line.
Yeah that sounds like a fun strategy lol... play until your opponent gets bored
The point is to basically turtle and slowly move up, without really pushing until after the Protoss has gotten bored and suicided 5 maxed armies into your siege line.
Yeah that sounds like a fun strategy lol... play until your opponent gets bored
wait wait wait... half of the Terran community complains that they can't play such styles while Zerg and Protoss get to play them all of the time; now someone posts such a strategy for TvP (TvZ turtlemech threads exist as well) and you complain that it is not fun enough for you? Well then don't play it (and don't play any other race) and shut up.
@Zanazuah : Hm, You'll basically need that gas to get thors,ravens, +1 armor. In midgame we're limited by our gas ,so we need to collect at much of it as possible in early
@Severus : what kind of build was he doing, and what was yours?
@4Servy : yes, thanks for pointing that. I do always do this uppgrade (and building armor as well) as it's a really great one, but forgot to say it in the guide
@XquisiteWretch : you don't like this strategy ? then you can just go away,except if you have some solids arguments to bash it like you're doing And also, it's funnier for me to turtle until you're unbeatable rather than playing perfectly, pushing,and getting wreck in one A move from the toss. Also thinks that this is not some kind of retarded 2 or 3 bases turtle into 200 supply doomball (This is OK for toss, not for terran), but a defensive play aiming at staying alive while getting more and more bases,and reaching some kind of 'invincibility' point I do believe that too much people are in that sad mentality of "Every step of your strat HAS to lead to some kind of midgame push". Come on, we're on a game that allows an huge number of strategy. I do just prefer to abuse the fact that Terran is the best race when it comes to pure turtling
wait wait wait... half of the Terran community complains that they can't play such styles while Zerg and Protoss get to play them all of the time; now someone posts such a strategy for TvP (TvZ turtlemech threads exist as well) and you complain that it is not fun enough for you? Well then don't play it (and don't play any other race) and shut up.
Who peed in your corn flakes?
TvP mech is not fun because it doesn't work... I exclusively go mech in TvZ and TvT though and do pretty well
You say mech TvP doesn't work, ok So basically,asnwer to that my dear 1) What's your experience with TvP mech (number of games ? level? Some replays as well?) 2) What are your arguments to say mech doesn't work vP ? You're only doing troll-like bashing actually
@XquisiteWretch : you don't like this strategy ? then you can just go away,except if you have some solids arguments to bash it like you're doing And also, it's funnier for me to turtle until you're unbeatable rather than playing perfectly, pushing,and getting wreck in one A move from the toss. I do believe that too much people are in that sad mentality of "Every step of your strat HAS to lead to some kind of push". Come on, we're on a game that allows an huge number of strategy
People have already given you a wealth of reasons mech does not work, youre just ignoring them...
There are so many counters to mech in TvP so I will just name a few...
Immortals hard counter tanks AND thors without perfect ghost micro, which is even harder now (post nerf), Void Rays and Carriers dump all over mech, Blink stalkers make tanks ineffective, as well as make your slow thor army basically worhtless as they can just blink into your base and wreck havoc, chargelots wreck tanks and thors, as well as cause friendly fire splash... should I go on?
Seriously dude . . leave this thread please. You're doing like everyone bashing on mech, just saying random things without anything to back up . It's totally ok for me to discuss with somebody who have played mech TvP in a serious way, tried differents strategies and openers, in a few words, somebody who know what he's talking about, but not with a troll like you I can provide one and an half year of TvP mech experience and replays, ranging from low master for the oldest, to high GM/Master now, You're just providing some random facts on supposed mech weakness. Most of them having already being dealt with by a lot of mech playstyles, others dealt by my own play ,and some others . .well, every strat does have weakness,and that's why skill and experience are important
supposed mech weakness? its not "supposed" its fact... the king of mech "Goody" quit mech a long time ago, saying it is ineffective against protoss, so if you dont want to hear it from me, fine... just know that I am not pissing on your back and telling you its raining, I am telling you the truth
Then prove these "Facts". Most of them aren't even true. Then explain why my replays shows that these facts can be dealt with. Then read my whole guide,as i talk about why goody quitted mech, then anwer to my question about your vP mech experience. Then explan how can i win vs high master/GM level protoss if mech is that bad, even versus players who know me and know i'll be meching?
On March 25 2012 03:09 Lyyna wrote: Then prove these "Facts". Most of them aren't even true. Then explain why my replays shows that these facts can be dealt with. Then read my whole guide,as i talk about why goody quitted mech, then anwer to my question about your vP mech experience. Then explan how can i win vs high master/GM level protoss if mech is that bad, even versus players who know me and know i'll be meching?
How can you guarantee that all of protoss that you played is good ?,you got only 50% win ratio so i don't think that your mmr was high (rank is not important).i saw your replay and protoss play very poor -_-.
On March 25 2012 03:09 Lyyna wrote: Then prove these "Facts". Most of them aren't even true. Then explain why my replays shows that these facts can be dealt with. Then read my whole guide,as i talk about why goody quitted mech, then anwer to my question about your vP mech experience. Then explan how can i win vs high master/GM level protoss if mech is that bad, even versus players who know me and know i'll be meching?
How can you guarantee that all of protoss that you played is good ?,you got only 50% win ratio so i don't think that your mmr was high (rank is not important).i saw your replay and protoss play very poor -_-.
You are such a joke. The MMR skill is caped at TopMaster, that's why GM meet Masters now. And you know what ? Lyyna is top master, he played the top of the top of the european ladder and he still wins with 60 to 70% in TvP. There is Breath_Un, a top50 GM who gave us a replay where he TvPs with mech. His opponent is EEvEE, a well know top GM who faces players like Mana, Stephano and other players like that on the ladder. The game was Insane, with HT, Immortal, Archons, and he still lost even if he played like a pro.
So, shut up and leave this thread if you have nothing to say but shit.
In fact i think posting here was a really big mistake, i should just delete all my posts made on TL about mech, and come back after winning a GSL or two . . and even in that case some people will still do random bash on things i've already talk about , just because i dare to play in a different way... As said on another topic,basically TvP mech can only be an underground movement , not because of any viability issue but because of people's mentality
On March 25 2012 02:59 XquisiteWretch wrote: supposed mech weakness? its not "supposed" its fact... the king of mech "Goody" quit mech a long time ago, saying it is ineffective against protoss, so if you dont want to hear it from me, fine... just know that I am not pissing on your back and telling you its raining, I am telling you the truth
There is a better mech player named gorapadong.
Also, Goody did not quit.
Please check your facts. You obviously do not know as much about this as neither Lyyna nor me, so get off your high horse. TL Strategy Guidelines say that you should post with respect and make sure your contributions are neither random theorycrafting without experience in said situations nor false or inaccurate.
If you have no replays or reasoning to back your argument up, get out. You're of no help to the discussion.
Great guide, I have been meching since that jinro-mc match ages ago.
I like to do a 1 marauder expo and then start the factory in that techlab, tanks non-stop. Instead of banshees i prefer bfh drops and then in the late game mass nukes+hellion runbys. I'll try to mix some air with it
On March 25 2012 03:09 Lyyna wrote: Then prove these "Facts". Most of them aren't even true. Then explain why my replays shows that these facts can be dealt with. Then read my whole guide,as i talk about why goody quitted mech, then anwer to my question about your vP mech experience. Then explan how can i win vs high master/GM level protoss if mech is that bad, even versus players who know me and know i'll be meching?
How can you guarantee that all of protoss that you played is good ?,you got only 50% win ratio so i don't think that your mmr was high (rank is not important).i saw your replay and protoss play very poor -_-.
You are such a joke. The MMR skill is caped at TopMaster, that's why GM meet Masters now. And you know what ? Lyyna is top master, he played the top of the top of the european ladder and he still wins with 60 to 70% in TvP. There is Breath_Un, a top50 GM who gave us a replay where he TvPs with mech. His opponent is EEvEE, a well know top GM who faces players like Mana, Stephano and other players like that on the ladder. The game was Insane, with HT, Immortal, Archons, and he still lost even if he played like a pro.
So, shut up and leave this thread if you have nothing to say but shit.
lol are you serious ? do you think Gm who play high Master is good ? He got bad mmr that why he play high master.I saw that game and don't think protoss play good enough to claim that Mech is viable,He throw away his army after he can crush terran army @ 4th base, He got no Scout pylon/ probe / observer eventhough he know unit composition of terran army (which got many hellion) so fall a part form hellion run by. He did not even try to harass main base with his stalker (thank god he got no turret at all !!), @ 34 min he attack with out reason (wtf terran got sensor tower ) and get trap lol.And so many use less engage/bad micro.He play like a pro right ?
On March 25 2012 03:09 Lyyna wrote: Then prove these "Facts". Most of them aren't even true. Then explain why my replays shows that these facts can be dealt with. Then read my whole guide,as i talk about why goody quitted mech, then anwer to my question about your vP mech experience. Then explan how can i win vs high master/GM level protoss if mech is that bad, even versus players who know me and know i'll be meching?
How can you guarantee that all of protoss that you played is good ?,you got only 50% win ratio so i don't think that your mmr was high (rank is not important).i saw your replay and protoss play very poor -_-.
You are such a joke. The MMR skill is caped at TopMaster, that's why GM meet Masters now. And you know what ? Lyyna is top master, he played the top of the top of the european ladder and he still wins with 60 to 70% in TvP. There is Breath_Un, a top50 GM who gave us a replay where he TvPs with mech. His opponent is EEvEE, a well know top GM who faces players like Mana, Stephano and other players like that on the ladder. The game was Insane, with HT, Immortal, Archons, and he still lost even if he played like a pro.
So, shut up and leave this thread if you have nothing to say but shit.
lol are you serious ? do you think Gm who play high Master is good ? He got bad mmr that why he play high master.
I"m only going to react on that : Learn how leagues works. Highest masters have an MMR equal to top GM (and sometimes higher than every GM). GM are the 200 highest MMR WHEN GM league is filled, after that there is nothing that makes GM MMR different from master's one. Most high master are even with most GM. You say that a GM who is playing high master is bad? Then I do see a lots of bad GM. Kas, Dimaga, Real, Lowely, etc . . . Learn how MMR and leagues works before saying things like that And well, i start to really think that thread is dead before really started to live
On March 25 2012 03:09 Lyyna wrote: Then prove these "Facts". Most of them aren't even true. Then explain why my replays shows that these facts can be dealt with. Then read my whole guide,as i talk about why goody quitted mech, then anwer to my question about your vP mech experience. Then explan how can i win vs high master/GM level protoss if mech is that bad, even versus players who know me and know i'll be meching?
How can you guarantee that all of protoss that you played is good ?,you got only 50% win ratio so i don't think that your mmr was high (rank is not important).i saw your replay and protoss play very poor -_-.
You are such a joke. The MMR skill is caped at TopMaster, that's why GM meet Masters now. And you know what ? Lyyna is top master, he played the top of the top of the european ladder and he still wins with 60 to 70% in TvP. There is Breath_Un, a top50 GM who gave us a replay where he TvPs with mech. His opponent is EEvEE, a well know top GM who faces players like Mana, Stephano and other players like that on the ladder. The game was Insane, with HT, Immortal, Archons, and he still lost even if he played like a pro.
So, shut up and leave this thread if you have nothing to say but shit.
lol are you serious ? do you think Gm who play high Master is good ? He got bad mmr that why he play high master.
I"m only going to react on that : Learn how leagues works. Highest masters have an MMR equal to top GM. Most high master are even with most GM. You say that a GM who is playing high master has a bad MMR? Then I do see a lots of bad GM. Kas, Dimaga, Real, Lowely, etc . . .
If that high master player got like 50% (low mmr) ratio yes i would say that Gm so bad.
Even the highest GM players mainly play against High masters players.. you have to remember that there are only 200 GM players and often the very top master players of the whole server have higher MMR than the bottom of GM.
nOondn you clearly don't understand how the ladder system works.
On March 25 2012 03:58 Kaitokid wrote: Even the highest GM players mainly play against High masters players.. you have to remember that there are only 200 GM players and often the very top master players of the whole server have higher MMR than the bottom of GM.
nOondn you clearly don't understand how the ladder system works.
i mean Gm player who played with low mmr high master player is bad ok ?.
So considering i often match pros (for example i faced Kas and won with him only slightly favored, i faced Dimaga "even", etc), following your reasoning,i'm good because my MMR is good. Seriously, give up this, you clearly don't understand how league, MMR, ratios,etc works,and also you're basically killing an already nearly dead thread ><
I don't think you adequately answered how you're supposed to stop multipronged blink stalker / obs attacks while the protoss (mass) expands behind it. In all actuality, P should be able to force a soft contain on you (not allowing you to take a very quick third, and preventing 4ths and 5ths altogether) and STILL be able to gut your production simply due to the immobility of siege tanks.
Sure, you can counterharass with BFH and Cloaked Banshees, but the effectiveness of those two falls off in the mid game. It doesn't compare to ~30 blink stalkers blinking on the sides of your base.
And in regards to sensor towers - What does this matter? Honestly, even if you have sensor towers and can see blink stalkers coming, I'm at a loss for what you expect to be able to do against them. Unsiege from your front and move your entire tankline back and then siege up again? Run back the superduper cost-efficient 10 hellions to get smashed?
This is what needs to be answered before you can declare this build viable.
I don't think you adequately answered how you're supposed to stop multipronged blink stalker / obs attacks while the protoss (mass) expands behind it. In all actuality, P should be able to force a soft contain on you (not allowing you to take a very quick third, and preventing 4ths and 5ths altogether) and STILL be able to gut your production simply due to the immobility of siege tanks.
Sure, you can counterharass with BFH and Cloaked Banshees, but the effectiveness of those two falls off in the mid game. It doesn't compare to ~30 blink stalkers blinking on the sides of your base.
And in regards to sensor towers - What does this matter? Honestly, even if you have sensor towers and can see blink stalkers coming, I'm at a loss for what you expect to be able to do against them. Unsiege from your front and move your entire tankline back and then siege up again? Run back the superduper cost-efficient 10 hellions to get smashed?
This is what needs to be answered before you can declare this build viable.
You and noodn are the most ignorant pieces of shit I've ever encountered, and I've been on the fucking Bnet forums. Yoshi is referring to the recent games where goody went mech in tvp in tournaments.
You angry nerds who have nothing better to do than talk shit about strategies you've never tried with your gold league ability are pathetic. Get a life seriously.
Wow you gave me the will to turn on SC2 again. I'm just a spectator at the moment but your playstyle seems fun. Bringing his own style of play at top master level just shows it is viable for everybody except maybe 500 terrans players (including 450+ Koreans)? Just ignore the whiners.
On March 25 2012 02:59 XquisiteWretch wrote: supposed mech weakness? its not "supposed" its fact... the king of mech "Goody" quit mech a long time ago, saying it is ineffective against protoss, so if you dont want to hear it from me, fine... just know that I am not pissing on your back and telling you its raining, I am telling you the truth
There is a better mech player named gorapadong.
Also, Goody did not quit.
He was confused, I never said goody quit, I said he quit mech in TvP...
Also you need to calm down crocodile, slinging insults for no reason at all... how is it that I got "warned" for making a goofy joke that wasnt insulting anyone but this guy is throwing the f bomb out there and personally attacking people and not getting warned? double standard?
Any reps against late game carrier/HT/mothership protoss? I mean, one that plays passive like you, and gets 4-5 bases and goes into carrier/HT transition?
I thought that was the proper counter to slow non timing push mech. FB everything, storm, and just let carriers ass rape. If vikings clump, you can vortex or storm?
Blink stalker/chargelot/archon/immortal are good early-mid game units vs mech, but well positioned mech will be hard pressed to lose to blink stalkers.
So, any chance you have played any late game mass air transitions with cannons everywhere and carrier/HT/Mship?
(Just wanna say . . . it's ok to use this post to share some good replays of TvP mech, but this is "Lyyna's guide for TvP mech", not "a special place created by Lyyna to share TvP mech replays" )
Also, don't be a rude... The guy even said he tried YOUR style in his game that he posted. That passive aggressiveness has no place when you're trying to push a build/style. Ending something shitty with a smile doesn't make it less shitty.
On March 25 2012 04:08 Zarent wrote: I don't think you adequately answered how you're supposed to stop multipronged blink stalker / obs attacks while the protoss (mass) expands behind it. In all actuality, P should be able to force a soft contain on you (not allowing you to take a very quick third, and preventing 4ths and 5ths altogether) and STILL be able to gut your production simply due to the immobility of siege tanks.
Sure, you can counterharass with BFH and Cloaked Banshees, but the effectiveness of those two falls off in the mid game. It doesn't compare to ~30 blink stalkers blinking on the sides of your base.
And in regards to sensor towers - What does this matter? Honestly, even if you have sensor towers and can see blink stalkers coming, I'm at a loss for what you expect to be able to do against them. Unsiege from your front and move your entire tankline back and then siege up again? Run back the superduper cost-efficient 10 hellions to get smashed?
This is what needs to be answered before you can declare this build viable.
Basically, With the hellion/air part of your army, you're REALLY mobile in defense even on a lots of bases. On less bases, it's even easier because you can just abuse some tanks spread and simcity. Faust gave another good answer : if he commits to hard to his harass, just say 'fucking kill him'. He can't kill you with his whole army, so with only half an army . . Another option is to do that defensively : set a trap around your attack base, and leapfrog. You traded supplys and addons for an army of stalkers sensor towerds allows you to do that without getting backstabbed . It also allows you to judge how much tanks you need to unsiege,and to have them in your base before the stalker does too much damage.
Basically, going towards mass stalkers vs a tank-based army (assisted by air, including ravens,and thors,and ghosts) is like going mutalisk in ZvT : you gain good harass ability, but you just can't stand a direct fight
On March 25 2012 05:02 iAmJeffReY wrote: Any reps against late game carrier/HT/mothership protoss? I mean, one that plays passive like you, and gets 4-5 bases and goes into carrier/HT transition?
I thought that was the proper counter to slow non timing push mech. FB everything, storm, and just let carriers ass rape. If vikings clump, you can vortex or storm?
Blink stalker/chargelot/archon/immortal are good early-mid game units vs mech, but well positioned mech will be hard pressed to lose to blink stalkers.
So, any chance you have played any late game mass air transitions with cannons everywhere and carrier/HT/Mship?
(Just wanna say . . . it's ok to use this post to share some good replays of TvP mech, but this is "Lyyna's guide for TvP mech", not "a special place created by Lyyna to share TvP mech replays" )
Also, don't be a rude... The guy even said he tried YOUR style in his game that he posted. That passive aggressiveness has no place when you're trying to push a build/style. Ending something shitty with a smile doesn't make it less shitty.
A lots of replays shows lategame fights,Nearly every protoss try at least once some heavy air transition in every long game. If you want to be sure to get some of those . . will ,check the longest games Basically My main priority become EMP'ing the mothership at all cost, and keeping my air spread with my tanks,to avoid storm carpet/vortex. And that's why i don't really rely on vikings but on raven and BC to counter protoss air : they're less vulnerable to protoss mass AOE
Well,my goal wasn't to be rude. But between the huge number of people sharing their own replays of mech which are sometimes not even related to the guide's style,and the haters, i start to become a bit . . harsh
Just curious, why do you get thors when you mech? If you need AA you have viking and raven, if you need more damage tanks are better for that, and if you need better tanks you can get BFH (they are better at killing zealots, and area a good harass unit to boot). Am I missing something here?
Basically you need thors to Early and mid : Contrary to tanks, thors don't need that 'critic mass' to be really effective. So they're good to handle the first fights with mass repair,and their ability to destroy every protoss low-tech units Lategame : Add some AOE to your anti-air ability, and mainly for tanking ability
Well,my goal wasn't to be rude. But between the huge number of people sharing their own replays of mech which are sometimes not even related to the guide's style,and the haters, i start to become a bit . . harsh
This is a public forum where people come to debate, if you cant handle a little bit of criticism/challenge then youre in the wrong place
that's old news I guess you don't understand that things change over time...?
Yeah you know what has changed since then?
Forge
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200 The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300 The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400 The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175 The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250 The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175 The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250
Terran Ghost
EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5
Making mech even more impractical against protoss... I am in masters, im not some gold league scrub just making shit up, so drop the condescending attitude and act like an adult
On March 25 2012 06:31 Faust852 wrote: Cool bro, but it's not the topic here, so go out, make your own thread with your opinion on Mech and leave us alone
So what you're saying is since he disagrees with you or the thread he can't be here? You kinda remind me of Obama, or Hitler.
Well,my goal wasn't to be rude. But between the huge number of people sharing their own replays of mech which are sometimes not even related to the guide's style,and the haters, i start to become a bit . . harsh
This is a public forum where people come to debate, if you cant handle a little bit of criticism/challenge then youre in the wrong place
I can handle criticism when it comes from people trying to do intelligent things and who know what they're talking about, not from trolls who keep saying random retarded 'facts' without anything to back it up just because they see 'TvP mech', and who don't even read the guide
Saying you can talk about a pure turtling style TvP mech because you do play mech (and probably in a standard way ?) vZ and vT at a barely mid master level is like talking about original play in DOTA because you're good at LOL standard play. Also, i believe that you didn't even read the guide, considering some things you're saying. You're just reacting badly to 'TvP mech'
There is some replays where i do mention 'mass carriers' in the name,and that usually imply a nearly pure air army . . but i'm watching these just to see if i can find some games where the toss get a pure air army. I do see that often so it should be easy to find
edit : the 08-03 game vs OiTms shows some fight versus a maxed carriers/MS army, and some zealot/heavy air army 14-03 vs MlTTIgr shows an airball with a balanced mix of carriers and VR ( in number ) and a MS
is like talking about original play in DOTA because you're good at LOL standard play.
I dont know what this means...?
I did read the guide, the title of this thread is kind of misleading... Im not sure what you should call this thread but what youre describing isnt really mech... It seems like youre incorporating almost every terran unit into the build, which means your upgrades dont stack very well and you spend ALOT on infastructure (factories/starports) Tech switching as Terran is just not very practicalor very cost efficient.
How to handle mass air? So basically,if he’s getting mass air, go for lots of ravens,some BC, some thors, and keep a good tanks/ghosts counts.
I mean, this is just silly... how in the world do you have the gas to produce all that? and none of those units are good against void rays, which he is sure to incorporate... HT feedback the heck out of that army as well...
Let me tell you my main concern with meching in TvP:
It essentially comes down to a few protoss units that just DEVASTATE mech/sky terran.
1. Immortals are HARD counters to thors and tanks, and can only be defeated by superb ghost micro, which is even harder now since the EMP nerf
2. High Templar feedback Thors, BC's, ghosts, ravens and banshees, especially crucial against ravens, banshees and ghosts considering they can be one shot. Storm is good against every unit in the terran arsenal as well
3. Void Rays are the ultimate mech killer, absolutely crushing thors and obviously tanks and hellions as well. BCs, banshees and ravens all suck against voids as well. Only good counter is adding vikings but even those are not that great of a counter
It means that because you're playing a standard mech vT and vZ don't mean that you know how vP turtling works.
There is no sudden tech switch or try to get everything at once. Everything is smooth and calculated, you build your core mech army in midgame,getting only +armor uppgrade (+attack isn't that useful vs toss), then switching LATE to air (and that's not a total switch , just add some air to replace stuff like hellions) while getting double upp on air. . . No sudden tech switch, you do just smoothly unlock more and more stuff as long as the game goes forwar
How in the world do i have the gas for all that? Well, in the same way the protoss as the gas to do his mass air ball. Seriously, don't assume that it's like 2 bases T vs 6 bases toss. and mass VR is shredded by ghosts + thor + HSM AOE. And HT feedback? Think about some units in our army . . well . ghosts . . OH WELL , TANKS! And if he's going air, there'll be nearly nothing on the ground so your tanks and hellions will shred templars
Immortals hard counter tanks and thors without support. As long as the terran has like 4-5 ghosts and/or hellions/banshees support, immortals become one of the worst units vs mech. There is a lots of replays of protoss trying to do mass immortal... and even 'just' going mass hellions is usually enough for these. And a ghost can make like 3 immortals useless
High templars . . seriously. first of all, feedbacking ALL these energy units would requires an impossible micro. And you're supposing that the T is never emp'ing or focus firing with tanks . .
VR get kill thors and BC in little number, but vikings/ghosts destroy them with some thors tanking damage. In large number, thors, BC, ghosts,and ravens destroys these
Seriously guy, your mech flaws seems to assume that the terran do not micro versus a 500 APM toss, has 2 bases versus 6, and isn't researching any uppgrade like HSM or ghost cloak . . watch some replays. These flaws are the most commonly 'treated' in my games
Seriously man. You are not even countering our arguments. I said that goody has not quit playing mech. I showed you why. I showed you replays of him still meching.
Then you ask what the shit you are making up? You are wrong, but you don't even admit it. Then you pick at some small part of my post and start countering it by listing a bunch of upgrade and patch changes. That has nothing to do with whether Goody quit playing or not.
You are the one who needs to act more maturely.
I'm not in gold, so, yeah. Once again, you're wrong.
On March 25 2012 02:59 XquisiteWretch wrote: supposed mech weakness? its not "supposed" its fact... the king of mech "Goody" quit mech a long time ago, saying it is ineffective against protoss, so if you dont want to hear it from me, fine... just know that I am not pissing on your back and telling you its raining, I am telling you the truth
There is a better mech player named gorapadong.
Also, Goody did not quit.
He was confused, I never said goody quit, I said he quit mech in TvP...
Also you need to calm down crocodile, slinging insults for no reason at all... how is it that I got "warned" for making a goofy joke that wasnt insulting anyone but this guy is throwing the f bomb out there and personally attacking people and not getting warned? double standard?
No, I was not confused. You are the one who is confused here. Goody did not quit [mech].
Also if you think someone deserves a warning or ban, don't spam it here. Go ask a moderator or ask in a more appropriate thread.
mean, this is just silly... how in the world do you have the gas to produce all that? and none of those units are good against void rays, which he is sure to incorporate... HT feedback the heck out of that army as well...
How does Protoss get all that gas?
Vikings are 2:1 mineral ratio.
Voids suck vs Vikings o.o
Phoenix are 3:2 mineral ratio.
Carriers are gas heavy as well.
Also people keep thinking that anything with an energy bar is countered by HTs. HTs can do well against them, but it doesn't mean they counter. Even thors with 200 energy getting feedback'd by HTs... you won't insta die. In that situation, bring many many SCVs -- his army will be very weak.
Flying units, stack and emp 1 or 2 time to get rid of all energy. Banshees, cloak and decloak.
How in the world does the Protoss get all that gas for HT?
Also, turrets. Which are much better than the 1.5 more costly canons.
You probably don't have a better (by much at least) understanding of mech if you don't even know of goody's more recent mech games as well as gorapadong's.
@XquisiteWretch There are a couple of things to say: - Goodys style is pretty funny in every matchup and in theory he shouldn't win in any of them. TvP mech is the hardest to figure out properly so its pretty natural that he has the most difficulties there. - Goody switched from TvP to PvP because his bio TvP was even worse compared to his mech. (I think he even plays PvT now in some cups) - 450 is not mid masters, if you don't count the inactive people you are pretty much among the lowest 10 people in your division.
Everyone who doesn't like Lyynas style should check out the replay from Breach. Its really good, and there are a lot of opportunities to make it even stronger. And it doesn't rely on turtling 50 minutes (but is very capable of being on par with the Protoss during every period of the game if you use your units correctly).
Really hope this motivates more terrans to play mech because PvT/TvP has stayed kind of stagnant for the entirety of sc2. I mean some people dabbled in mech before, but it never really became the most popular style. Just saying it would be cool to have more paths for the match up.
Uploaded a new .rar replays pack, including macro games versus Affect (long-time GM protoss, using an huge air ball lategame) and Freman (French pro player, who choose to use a pure ground army. Really close game)
On March 25 2012 16:47 Yamulo wrote: Really hope this motivates more terrans to play mech because PvT/TvP has stayed kind of stagnant for the entirety of sc2. I mean some people dabbled in mech before, but it never really became the most popular style. Just saying it would be cool to have more paths for the match up.
They won't. But this works well regardless. Its so much fun though.
Also would like to see a link added to Wardens guide (and maybe you should also include his BO for 111 within a spoiler). As you mentioned yourself already there's still a lot of work to do (formatting to make it look more appealing). Also would like to know your specific mech style in TvZ
Ahh to bad i cannot see these replays right now, for i wanna see how this works. Cuz i cannot imagine how a protoss can lose in a macro game vs a meching terran
All stand for an ovation for this man. Good guide. I actually remember how well Marine Thor banshee did vs. midgame pushes. I just never had a set build order for this. Now I can go back to that when I want and where I want, roll Protoss face, and collect wins.
Basically, With the hellion/air part of your army, you're REALLY mobile in defense even on a lots of bases. On less bases, it's even easier because you can just abuse some tanks spread and simcity. Faust gave another good answer : if he commits to hard to his harass, just say 'fucking kill him'. He can't kill you with his whole army, so with only half an army . . Another option is to do that defensively : set a trap around your attack base, and leapfrog. You traded supplys and addons for an army of stalkers sensor towerds allows you to do that without getting backstabbed . It also allows you to judge how much tanks you need to unsiege,and to have them in your base before the stalker does too much damage.
Basically, going towards mass stalkers vs a tank-based army (assisted by air, including ravens,and thors,and ghosts) is like going mutalisk in ZvT : you gain good harass ability, but you just can't stand a direct fight
[
Hellions, again, don't trade cost efficiently with blink microed stalkers. And you won't have enough banshees that you'll be wanting to use them for defense against ~15 stalkers blinking in.
And in terms of if you move out to go fucking kill me? That's not how mech works, sadly. I can and -will- delay you at your front to force you to siege up and leapfrog across with your tanks, which'll give me the time to pick off a few key things (armory comes to mind as well as tech labs) before blinking back down and coming back to engage from the opposite side with those stalkers in time for when you want to kill me.
Secondly, I'd hardly think that you can afford to try to engage in a baserace with me. I could and should have expanded vertically across my side of the map such that, if/when you decide to attempt to kill off all my tech in my main, I will still have two nexuses worth of economy far away from my main. Meanwhile, however many blink stalkers I want to devote will be gutting your base and disrupting production, as well as picking off any reinforcements. From there, as long as I trade in any manner of efficiency, your army will eventually be whittled down.
And thats the core difference between Stalkers and mutas. In ZvT, mutalisks can be counted on to be shut down by a handful of marines or missile turrets spaced effectively, and then they're not worth much in a fight. But a good ~15 stalkers isn't an entire investment of a mid/late game army, nor is is worthless in a fight when it eventually occurs.
Also, I frankly laugh at you if you think that you're going to get a full legion of tanks, with banshees -and- ravens -and- thors -and- ghosts without Protoss having an equally ridiculous deathball army.
How would you deal with blink harass? or even better double immortal warp prism drops? double immortal would snipe those tech labs SO fast...
The way to play against mech in every match up is to just pick them apart at the edges and expand a lot though. I think the main reasons people would dislike this style is because typically a straight up fight with a mech army is suicide after a certain point, but a protoss on lots of gas would likely be able to trade pretty evenly with you, it's just that protoss isn't used to being allowed to just take 10 gas and mass carrier/voidray/archon.
On March 26 2012 15:31 McTeazy wrote: I kind of share the opinion of the guy above me.
How would you deal with blink harass? or even better double immortal warp prism drops? double immortal would snipe those tech labs SO fast...
The way to play against mech in every match up is to just pick them apart at the edges and expand a lot though. I think the main reasons people would dislike this style is because typically a straight up fight with a mech army is suicide after a certain point, but a protoss on lots of gas would likely be able to trade pretty evenly with you, it's just that protoss isn't used to being allowed to just take 10 gas and mass carrier/voidray/archon.
and that's why noone has ever carrier/voidray/archon this composition and talking about it being good vs what Lyyna is doing is just theorycrafting, while what Lyyna is doing vs whatever Protoss can throw at him has proofen to be efficient
@Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .
If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals
Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle
I think everyone should consider playing mech in all matchups because mech wants gas it doesn't want minerals why is that important you ask. Well you can "abuse the imba macro mechanic terran has" and because of that you don't need workers you only need some scvs to mine gas which in late game are gonna be 9/15 or something in those numbers. The other 2 races don't have that advantage they need workers to get minerals. This leads to another thing you will have bigger late game army than any other race and the most efficient army in the game.
So from now on every terran goal should be to reach late game and just dominate opponents. If you defend well and don't do stupid fights you will win no matter what even if they base race you. I think this trend will soon spread like Seals creep and pro gamers will start to see how better mech is.
Interesting note on the Battlecruisers/Banshees and a focus on sniping obs to make cloaked banshees effective. I mean, this guide is more properly titled Turtle Terran or Mech/Air Terran (Airmech?)
-BC. As much as possible -Ravens. These dudes are what make protoss air bad, and what makes BC powerful. No More Stalkers, No More Void Rays, No More Carriers. At least 4 of them. -Ghosts . Not too much (15 is too much). Getting like 6-8 is OK , as EMP is an AOE skill . . so you don’t need to mass ghosts to EMP everything -Tanks. Your core units. Basically, you mass them during mid games, so you should have more than 10 tanks. Keeping them alive is the key -Thors. Just a few for tanking and obs sniping, and because they’re still really good -Hellions. These poors guys are here to die and be replaced, but it’s always good to have some.
-Banshees and vikings : Ok, so basically BC are better in most situations ,especially with ravens , but sometimes you can get them (not enough gas, cant afford to sac supply or wait for BC to come out , forgetting fusion core like a retard,etc), so you’ll have to get these. Vikings aren’t that bad versus protoss air, and banshees are really good in every situation.
1. As much as possible, not mech 2. At least 4 of non-mechanical units. 3. 6-8 of nonmechanical units 4. First mech unit, core units 5. Just a few mech units, used for obs sniping and some army strength 6. Your throwaway trade mass zealot mech unit. Mech.
-Banshees. They’re the key,why? because as long as you snipe obs with thors, you can’t LOOSE a battle.
You literally can't "loose" a battle. You can lose a battle, you can be ground into nothing by superior forces, and you can suffer defeats in battle. You can loosen shoelaces, loose the dogs, and play loose. Making this word all caps makes the spelling mistake an eyesore, but with an easy correction, your guide will look all that much more polished.
Well, concluding with that help wouldn't be all so good. So I will say, I'm a masters Protoss that dies to this once in a while (Usually with more PFs). The strength is of the strategy is the rarity of the strategy. Gotta refocus my mind from defending drops and building to max and focus on taking bases and picking my counter (Usually mass air and mass gateways just in case I can punch a big enough hole in his defenses). Good luck, Terrans. I don't find this style fun at all, but you may.
EDIT: As I think more about this, Mech might have some validity since it instantly conjures in your mind a turtly style, a focus on your opponent having the wrong composition of units at max and/or inferior upgrades, and skipping earlygame/midgame in terms of potential aggression and weakness.
On March 26 2012 19:38 Danglars wrote: Interesting note on the Battlecruisers/Banshees and a focus on sniping obs to make cloaked banshees effective. I mean, this guide is more properly titled Turtle Terran or Mech/Air Terran (Airmech?)
-BC. As much as possible -Ravens. These dudes are what make protoss air bad, and what makes BC powerful. No More Stalkers, No More Void Rays, No More Carriers. At least 4 of them. -Ghosts . Not too much (15 is too much). Getting like 6-8 is OK , as EMP is an AOE skill . . so you don’t need to mass ghosts to EMP everything -Tanks. Your core units. Basically, you mass them during mid games, so you should have more than 10 tanks. Keeping them alive is the key -Thors. Just a few for tanking and obs sniping, and because they’re still really good -Hellions. These poors guys are here to die and be replaced, but it’s always good to have some.
-Banshees and vikings : Ok, so basically BC are better in most situations ,especially with ravens , but sometimes you can get them (not enough gas, cant afford to sac supply or wait for BC to come out , forgetting fusion core like a retard,etc), so you’ll have to get these. Vikings aren’t that bad versus protoss air, and banshees are really good in every situation.
1. As much as possible, not mech 2. At least 4 of non-mechanical units. 3. 6-8 of nonmechanical units 4. First mech unit, core units 5. Just a few mech units, used for obs sniping and a little main army incorporation 6. Your throwaway trade mass zealot mech unit.
-Banshees. They’re the key,why? because as long as you snipe obs with thors, you can’t LOOSE a battle.
You literally can't "loose" a battle. You can lose a battle, you can be ground into nothing by superior forces, and you can suffer defeats in battle. You can loosen shoelaces, loose the dogs, and play loose. Making this word all caps makes the spelling mistake an eyesore, but with an easy correction, your guide will look all that much more polished.
Well, concluding with that help wouldn't be all so good. So I will say, I'm a masters Protoss that dies to this once in a while (Usually with more PFs). The strength is of the strategy is the rarity of the strategy. Gotta refocus my mind from defending drops and building to max and focus on taking bases and picking my counter (Usually mass air and mass gateways just in case I can punch a big enough hole in his defenses). Good luck, Terrans. I don't find this style fun at all, but you may.
Quote from the OP (about lategame):
Usually i do have 3 barracks, 2 reactored fact, 5 techlabbed fact, and 2 techlabbed starports. So just add 3 techlabbed starport, fusion core, and . . . let’s the game begin !
Nice guide ! I'm terran master and I would like to contribute to this guide. I 200% agree with what you explain.
First of all, I basically have the same thinking about going mech in every matchup, especially versus protoss for many reasons you explained before. Also, a lot of protoss don't know how to react properly to those uncommon strategies.
There are many stuff to discuss about mech play vs protoss. In my opinion, PURE mech (i mean 100% factory units) is not always effective, you need ghost to kill protoss.
My BO may change depending of maps, but i always use early cloaked banshees to contain protoss at home and force him observers. It delays a lot protoss tech, economy and allows you to scout him easily. The mid and end-game is basically the same as you explained, with banshee harrass and big 200 supply mech army. For end game, if your push failed, i use camping and nuke harrass to kill protoss. In the end, this is patience game ^_^
Thank you so much. I've been trying to think outside the box myself a little against Protoss as a result of the tendency to slip into the MMMG/V army composition. I did try and mech vs P for a while but at my level(Platinum), improvising with build orders isn't my strong point. I can see myself having a lot of fun with this as I adore mech in the other two match-ups :D.
Going to review your replays for a better understanding & have bookmarked this thread.
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote: @Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .
If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals
Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle
And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.
also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote: @Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .
If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals
Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle
And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.
also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote: @Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .
If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals
Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle
And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.
also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)
. . . Did you at least watched some replays , to see how do i deal with mobility (as already said,mass sensor towers, which shows on the minimap yes, and "MassHack" orbitals)? Same for how engagements goes . .
If you go for a fast banshee while building CC in base (like you do in most of the replays), is it best to change the build if you spot a 4-gate incoming or just carry on? I suspect that the 4-gate will hit long before the banshee has cloak but I am not sure.
On March 27 2012 02:50 MockHamill wrote: If you go for a fast banshee while building CC in base (like you do in most of the replays), is it best to change the build if you spot a 4-gate incoming or just carry on? I suspect that the 4-gate will hit long before the banshee has cloak but I am not sure.
Cloak banshee against 4g is basically a default win for Terran.
Everlong has the good answer. Basically Cloak makes it autowin, and if you walled, you can hold 4 gate with 1 or 2 bunkers. There is at least one replay in the last pack that shows how to hold a 4 gate with it
Hi there, nice strategy. Really fun to see a protoss still on a good eco leaving a game after 50mins because he just dont want to send another army into death. I won all my games since i used this, but i have a quick question about the mech upgrades. I allways upgrade +3 armor first and it works really good. But why do you say that you allways should get armor as your 3rd upgrade? where is the difference in 0/1,1/1,1/2 to 0/1,0/2,1/2. (Weapon/Armor)
Basically it's all about gas allocation and his army setup. When you finish +1 armor you may be tight in gas , and you need your armory to ALWAYS works . . . Also, if he's getting mass stalkers, attack is better, but if he's going zealot heavy,let's go armor
MockHamill, there are many ways to detect a protoss all-in or cheese. If you 1st scouting scv died, send another at ~5'30 to check if protoss is taking expo. If no, add bunkers, you can even cut scv production a while. When I feel like protoss is going to all in, I add +2 barracks and cut scv production.
Lyyna don't feed trolls please. Keep making the guide. If people throws in intelligent questions, answer them, but if people are clearly trolling like this guy that is saying that sensor tower don't show units on minimap just avoid them like the plague.
This build would make ME cry. I hate it when terrans do the nothing but tanks, turrets, and viking thing. No matter how ahead on expansions I get its frustrating to not be able to end it. This build takes everything I hate about playing against terran and brings it to the extreme. Must be a good strat.
Just watched this (really cool game) and have read every post in this thread. Can't a high ranked protoss watch and comment on what went wrong here from the P point of view?
To me it looked like both players did well (a couple of small mistakes here and there from both sides) but in the end the mech army prevailed. Was it the cost effectiveness everyone is talking about (60k units lost for T vs 72k for P near the end). To me it looked like the P did everything that a mech army should die from theorycraft-wise (chargelot, templars, archons, immortals, blink stalkers).
Off topic: My head would explode halfway through that game, how the f-ck do you keep up for a freaking long game like that "pp I need to sleep and shave, back in 5... hours?".
Regarding the blink stalker harass question: depending on map, wouldn't a well placed PF in the main shut it down fairly well? At least stalling long enough for the sufficient forces to pull back?
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote: @Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .
If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals
Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle
And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.
also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)
. . . Did you at least watched some replays , to see how do i deal with mobility (as already said,mass sensor towers, which shows on the minimap yes, and "MassHack" orbitals)? Same for how engagements goes . .
of course i watched the replays. don't get pissy just because your strategy has weaknesses. every strategy does. Specifically, mech has this problem in every match up.
anyways, you're basically playing the turtle style that protoss usually does against a bio terran who has the more mobile army. You'll notice that they win a fair amount of games. There's some timings in the mid game specifically that can be really difficult. I noticed such a timing in your replays as well. how have you fared against immortal busts? sometimes you only have a 3ish tanks and 10 marines. i think 3 immortals even without gateway support could bust that.
Also, with the sensor towers, when you're on 4 bases you still can't move fast enough to deal with harass effectively i reckon. you expose your back a lot when you move out to the middle, i just haven't seen anyone in the replays exploit it. Do you have an example of you dealing with a heavily dropping/harassing player effectively? i'd interested to see that match
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote: @Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .
If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals
Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle
And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.
also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)
. . . Did you at least watched some replays , to see how do i deal with mobility (as already said,mass sensor towers, which shows on the minimap yes, and "MassHack" orbitals)? Same for how engagements goes . .
of course i watched the replays. don't get pissy just because your strategy has weaknesses. every strategy does. Specifically, mech has this problem in every match up.
anyways, you're basically playing the turtle style that protoss usually does against a bio terran who has the more mobile army. You'll notice that they win a fair amount of games. There's some timings in the mid game specifically that can be really difficult. I noticed such a timing in your replays as well. how have you fared against immortal busts? sometimes you only have a 3ish tanks and 10 marines. i think 3 immortals even without gateway support could bust that.
Also, with the sensor towers, when you're on 4 bases you still can't move fast enough to deal with harass effectively i reckon. you expose your back a lot when you move out to the middle, i just haven't seen anyone in the replays exploit it. Do you have an example of you dealing with a heavily dropping/harassing player effectively? i'd interested to see that match
Why don't you play him and find out? You're a protoss right?
Nice guide, maybe you can include some replays submitted by other people in the thread since there seems to be so many variations of going mech in general (heavy ground/air). I think it will help in grasping what unit composition works best in various scenarios.
On March 27 2012 06:39 darkcloud8282 wrote: Nice guide, maybe you can include some replays submitted by other people in the thread since there seems to be so many variations of going mech in general (heavy ground/air). I think it will help in grasping what unit composition works best in various scenarios.
Maybe its just because I submitted some of these replays, but I agree.
Just watched this (really cool game) and have read every post in this thread. Can't a high ranked protoss watch and comment on what went wrong here from the P point of view?
To me it looked like both players did well (a couple of small mistakes here and there from both sides) but in the end the mech army prevailed. Was it the cost effectiveness everyone is talking about (60k units lost for T vs 72k for P near the end). To me it looked like the P did everything that a mech army should die from theorycraft-wise (chargelot, templars, archons, immortals, blink stalkers).
Off topic: My head would explode halfway through that game, how the f-ck do you keep up for a freaking long game like that "pp I need to sleep and shave, back in 5... hours?".
there's a couple of reasons terran won. first, when toss had about 15 blink stalkers and terran had 4 marines and a tank, toss didn't just blink in and kill terran for making 3 CCs so fast. second, toss consistently makes too many stalkers and always has his chargelots trapped behind his stalkers or archons whenever he tries to engage. he also consistently chases hellions with pure chargelot and so loses a lot of chargelots for free. third, never makes any colossi so he hasn't got any splash to deal with hellions, because he keeps using storm instead of just making them into archons, which also means terran didn't have to make any vikings. lastly, he consistently fights with either half his army or attacks up a ramp (on terran's side of the map.........), the one or two times toss actually fights terran on even supply in the middle of the map toss rapes.
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote: @Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .
If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals
Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle
And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.
also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)
. . . Did you at least watched some replays , to see how do i deal with mobility (as already said,mass sensor towers, which shows on the minimap yes, and "MassHack" orbitals)? Same for how engagements goes . .
of course i watched the replays. don't get pissy just because your strategy has weaknesses. every strategy does. Specifically, mech has this problem in every match up.
anyways, you're basically playing the turtle style that protoss usually does against a bio terran who has the more mobile army. You'll notice that they win a fair amount of games. There's some timings in the mid game specifically that can be really difficult. I noticed such a timing in your replays as well. how have you fared against immortal busts? sometimes you only have a 3ish tanks and 10 marines. i think 3 immortals even without gateway support could bust that.
Also, with the sensor towers, when you're on 4 bases you still can't move fast enough to deal with harass effectively i reckon. you expose your back a lot when you move out to the middle, i just haven't seen anyone in the replays exploit it. Do you have an example of you dealing with a heavily dropping/harassing player effectively? i'd interested to see that match
which replays did you watch? all replays i've seen so far hes going Marines>Banshee>Thor>Tanks and never 10mins 3tanks+10 marines :/
@darkcloud : i wait to finish the guide before including other's people stuff. But i keep track of every replays / vod / stream submitted to me or on the thread
@McTeazy : well, i'm don't sure you watched right ones then . . . as c0se said, my open is basically marines into banshee and thors
Go and figure what he will be producing most. Of course it is not pure "only Mech units", people whine about Broodlord/Infestor(Corruptor) all the time, when over 50% of the Zergs army is in basic units such as roaches/blings and lings in all of those games, apart from the "one in i a million" stalemates. This is really not about word picking. And if you do it, do it right and read what is written in the section "attributes" of those units:
Not to get into semantics, but mech has historically been used to describe an army that mainly consists of factory units, whereas in this build the majority of endgame units features a very diverse mix.
Please drop the pitchforks, I am merely suggesting to the build creator that he consider a different name for it to better describe its goals. In thepastbuildshave had more descriptive names. The only advantage I see I have already said:
EDIT: As I think more about this, Mech might have some validity since it instantly conjures in your mind a turtly style, a focus on your opponent having the wrong composition of units at max and/or inferior upgrades, and skipping earlygame/midgame in terms of potential aggression and weakness.
Food for thought. Keep maintaining the guide because I personally have lost to variations of this (usually more map-control planetaries for additional third protection) and those replays are just great.
@Karma : well, you have tanks and ghosts for a reason. Also protoss has to make really accurate and fast choices at feedbacking in lategame, because you'll have -Banshees -BC -Raven -PDD (yeah yeah, if he's slow on getting the ravens he'll have to care about 10 Pdd on the battlefield) -Medivacs (a few for ghosts) -Thors Hard to choose what to feedback,he?
@Danglars : well, for me mech is everything involving metal-like units. And this is ok for me to use it because actually, for a lots of people, mech = factory units = A moving 50 tanks brainlessly into opponents army. It's a bio like saying "Marine/Tank" versus Z for example . . there is medivacs, there is vikings,there is marauder,etc. Actually i want the "mech" concept to evolve in the same way, thinking of it as an ball of both "mech ground" and "mech air" units. I'll probably not succeed to start this evolution (actually,succeeding at spreading this build and the turtling concept in the community would already be an huge victory for me), but it is one of my ultimate goals :D
Anyway, i would like to thanks every people supporting me (because it's huge for motivation) and every people bashing me too (because i want to show them how stupid they are :D). Cheers!
I don't think mech/air should be called mech just because of the fact that they're mechanic and metal, which has more to do with the visuals/lore of the units rather than with actual strategy.
People are wrong, like you say, to call pure factory units the only kind of mech. In SC2, Terran is designed so that past a certain point, pure bio, pure mech, or pure air just loses effectiveness -- the micro required will become too intense, and so important support units will be "needed" such as medivacs and tanks for bio, and ghosts and vikings for mech.
However using that logic to justify calling mech/air to be "mech" simply because they synergize wwell together (as do marine tank medivac ghost viking) is flawed.
Marine Marauder Tank Thor Medivac Ghost Viking (with emphasis on Marine/Tank) is still Bio to me. The reason why is because the type of unit with the greatest amount of food is the bio units like the marines. Secondly, another important reason is because all the upgrades are focused on bio units. You get double bio upgrades, you don't get double vehicle upgrades.
Mech with air support and ghosts, but emphasis on Mech, is Mech to me. However, when you start to add more and more starports later in the game, and upgrades for both mech and air units are about the same, I would then call it Mech/Air, because it is a half-half composition.
When you start to remax on BCs or such, I would call that an air transition. Even if you still have some tanks and other mech ground units, they then become the support for that air army.
Another reason is because the three styles, bio, mech, and air are very distinct. Composition is not the only thing separating them, as you know. Bio is dependent on smaller, but more active and aggressive numbers, harassing, pressuring, and chipping away your opponent. Mech is defensive, more passive, and relies (generally) on large numbers. Air is a strange mix of the two, but still different. It can really exploit ground based army's mobility barrier by flying into air space, allowing you to harass and pressure in a unique way, and seize map control from your opponent.
If you're playing defensive, but with some banshee harass and such, I would still call that Mech - the main focus is on mech. You're still playing defensively (mainly). But once you switch to heavy BC, and start flying around killing bases and such, that is not so defensive and passive anymore. A mix between the two should be called Mech/Air or Air/Mech, to show the equally divided composition/focus/style.
On March 27 2012 07:52 Lyyna wrote: @darkcloud : i wait to finish the guide before including other's people stuff. But i keep track of every replays / vod / stream submitted to me or on the thread
@McTeazy : well, i'm don't sure you watched right ones then . . . as c0se said, my open is basically marines into banshee and thors
ok, i found a replay of something like you described. still though, it's 1 banshee and 20 marines and 4 tanks instead of 13 3 and none. is there a replay of you defending an immortal all in that you can remember? it just seems really really thin at that point. maybe if you alter your opening a bit you can make it safer and then transition?
On March 27 2012 07:52 Lyyna wrote: @darkcloud : i wait to finish the guide before including other's people stuff. But i keep track of every replays / vod / stream submitted to me or on the thread
@McTeazy : well, i'm don't sure you watched right ones then . . . as c0se said, my open is basically marines into banshee and thors
ok, i found a replay of something like you described. still though, it's 1 banshee and 20 marines and 4 tanks instead of 13 3 and none. is there a replay of you defending an immortal all in that you can remember? it just seems really really thin at that point. maybe if you alter your opening a bit you can make it safer and then transition?
4 tanks, 20 marines and a banshee should be able to hold an immortal bust. It'll come down to control and unit placement, but still, that's a pretty decent force.
I really don't know why your getting so much heat man your just sharing your build with the community for free and answering questions in a pretty diligent manner. Keep it up! I actually fear mech as a protoss, once the critical mass of tanks is reached i just shit myself and hope void rays come out in time.
Please to people discussing about semantic, just don't... Since the beta, the mainstream strategy vs protoss is full barracks units with viking/medivac and the factory is used to build a reactor for starport, then scout and get destroyed. Lyyna is showing something ELSE with another unit composition that rely mainly on factory units (tanks) and 0 marauder !! Of course you need to mix tanks with other units depending of protoss's composition. Call it "pure mech" or "mech mixed with air" or anything you want , who cares ?
More globally, I think that sc2 is becoming ultra scripted game. When I watch streams/obs games, I always see the same stuff, build orders are not evolving and I'm getting quickly BORED to watch that. I'm not saying the game is boring to PLAY, I say I'm not having fun to watch streams showing the same stuff... and the game is not 2 years old... Lyyna is showing another way to play the game and I like that, even if it's not new, at least it changes and it's cool. This is just my opinion, maybe this could be debated on another topic.
Since the beta, the mainstream strategy vs protoss is full barracks units with viking/medivac and the factory is used to build a reactor for starport, then scout and get destroyed. Lyyna is showing something ELSE with another unit composition that rely mainly on factory units (tanks) and 0 marauder !! Of course you need to mix tanks with other units depending of protoss's composition. Call it "pure mech" or "mech mixed with air" or anything you want , who cares ?
Let me quote Lyyna for you, Lloyd,
@Danglars : well, for me mech is everything involving metal-like units. And this is ok for me to use it because actually, for a lots of people, mech = factory units = A moving 50 tanks brainlessly into opponents army. It's a bio like saying "Marine/Tank" versus Z for example . . there is medivacs, there is vikings,there is marauder,etc. Actually i want the "mech" concept to evolve in the same way, thinking of it as an ball of both "mech ground" and "mech air" units. I'll probably not succeed to start this evolution (actually,succeeding at spreading this build and the turtling concept in the community would already be an huge victory for me), but it is one of my ultimate goals :D
What the discussion achieved is that Lyyna hopes to evolve the term mech to mean something that it doesn't mean right now. It's a fine goal. I love it.
But, Lloyd, don't object to the questioning leading up to Lyyna's explanation of it. Re-read Yoshi's post, please. What's being presented here is tank-centric play leading up to a potent air and mech army with a few ghosts. Now, I hope you're done and believe Lyyna when he says that he's trying to move the term in another direction. This part of the discussion is ended for me. Roll on, tanks.
Guys, c'mon, really? Are you going to argue definitions of 'mech' now?
I'm perfectly happy saying any army that has more than half it's units from the factory is 'mech-based' play. I think Lyyna was even trying to say even 'Bio' has medivacs, vikings, the occasional tank and/or raven, yet it's still considered bio.
The core of the army is mech. As it goes into late game it adapts and sometimes it goes battlecruier-heavy, but that's just adjusting for the game. It would be silly to get to that point in a game and say 'I know battlecruisers would help here, but since I'm going mech I can't make them. I'll just build more tanks."
A discussion, and guide, such as this shouldn't be getting bogged down by how to label the playstyle. Call it whatever you like: to me it's Mech and I don't see anything wrong with calling it that.
On March 27 2012 14:13 perser84 wrote: my problem about your games is
they are very very very long the one i saw was 54min well its like 2 armies have deathballs and refuse so fight until the map is mined out
As i often say, better to play 1H game and be sure to win after a certain point if you're good,than playing 20 minutes games where it's nothing about you but all about your opponent having enough IQ to know when he should 1 A out of his base for the win
On March 27 2012 17:52 LloydPGM wrote: Please to people discussing about semantic, just don't... Since the beta, the mainstream strategy vs protoss is full barracks units with viking/medivac and the factory is used to build a reactor for starport, then scout and get destroyed. Lyyna is showing something ELSE with another unit composition that rely mainly on factory units (tanks) and 0 marauder !! Of course you need to mix tanks with other units depending of protoss's composition. Call it "pure mech" or "mech mixed with air" or anything you want , who cares ?
More globally, I think that sc2 is becoming ultra scripted game. When I watch streams/obs games, I always see the same stuff, build orders are not evolving and I'm getting quickly BORED to watch that. I'm not saying the game is boring to PLAY, I say I'm not having fun to watch streams showing the same stuff... and the game is not 2 years old... Lyyna is showing another way to play the game and I like that, even if it's not new, at least it changes and it's cool. This is just my opinion, maybe this could be debated on another topic.
No.. sc2 is a young game so give it time.
Joking aside, I find 4 fact (+1 reac Rax) timing push off 2 base in 12mins are superior to any sort of "turtle" mech play. It often catches them off guard especially those who took a fast 3rd. If they went immortals the chances of ending the game goes dramatically up. Plus even if the push doesn't kill, you can follow up with a 5 Fac(3xreac, 2xtech), 1 reactor port push + 3rd base.
And fully agreed on the bit where Blizzard is forcing us to play a specific style and use certain units. Its downright hurting the game quality, and yet there are people on these forums saying "meta game will change, need more time, need to explore these units more.." well I for one think almost everything in SC2 has been explored "unit comp wise" already outside of new timings. Sad thing is that pros will never risk to entertain the crowd by going pure mech or anything like that because too much is on the line (some do and get heavily punished).
On March 27 2012 22:13 Norseman wrote: Guys, c'mon, really? Are you going to argue definitions of 'mech' now?
I'm perfectly happy saying any army that has more than half it's units from the factory is 'mech-based' play. I think Lyyna was even trying to say even 'Bio' has medivacs, vikings, the occasional tank and/or raven, yet it's still considered bio.
The core of the army is mech. As it goes into late game it adapts and sometimes it goes battlecruier-heavy, but that's just adjusting for the game. It would be silly to get to that point in a game and say 'I know battlecruisers would help here, but since I'm going mech I can't make them. I'll just build more tanks."
A discussion, and guide, such as this shouldn't be getting bogged down by how to label the playstyle. Call it whatever you like: to me it's Mech and I don't see anything wrong with calling it that.
If part of the reason why you say that is cus of my response to Lyyna, then I would like to point something out. The point is not that you have to stick to having ONLY factory heavy composition, but that there is such a thing as a transition, as you say. But you are suggesting that since you were playing with mech for most of the game, or started out with mech, you cannot call it a transition into air? That is called an "air transition" if the BCs become a majority of the army, and the style switches from a passive mech style into an air style. It may not switch permanently, but so long as the units and/or playstyle is there in that point of the game, it is "air style".
Lyyna does not seem to be saying exactly what you said about Bio. You are right, he is saying that Bio is not just marine marauder, but also includes support tank medivac viking, maybe a raven, etc. However, he seems to be saying that if you go for a BC transition (assuming he means a big one, like a remax...), it is still mech, simply because air compliments mech well. In that case it would simply be an air transition. He says he wants it all to be considered mech just because the two styles mech and air synergize so well together, and for a minor reason, because they are both dealing with metal, mechanic-type units.
If anyone, it is Lyyna who is trying to change the definition of mech to include air units, rather than regarding the air composition/style as its own genre, such as bio and mech. As he says himself, he is hoping to revolutionize the definition of mech.
My point is simply that changing such a definition is unnecessary and unhelpful. What then would we call mech without significant air support? Air-less mech? What would we call a half-half composition of mech/air ? Mech? How would we distinguish between a heavy factory style, or a factory focused style but with equal support from both bio and air, vs something like, for example, a half-half- composition of mech/air?
It would simply be silly to change the meaning of mech to include air units playing a role of 50% of larger (it is still called mech even though half your strategy/army does not revolve around factory units). They are two different styles with two different compositions.
Also would just like to point out blizzard seems to be quite in conflict -- which makes sense, as developers/balances are people and have different goals/opinions. If you read the situation reports, and compare them to, let's say, dustin's interviews, you can notice discrepancies in explanations or ideas or opinions. For example, David Kim said the tempest was to counter mass mutalisks. However, dustin said that tempests were designed to counter everything air. Quite a big difference there!
Another thing is the thor being nerfed and its size being reduced just for the "visuals" and "art team".
Also, David has said before that he would like to make mech "viable" work as well as bio, but I remember other answers from blizzard/dustin where they said they would like to see Bio as the main choice of composition/style in TvX.
Just want to make sure people consider this, that there are some fighting for mech (like david it seems)!
Well,the fact is that the army is still based on mech. It's a bit like TvZ marine/tank : the longer the game goes on, the more mech/viking you add,to replace your marines. And we don't call it BioMechAir Same thing here, you replace scv,hellions,and early marines with air, but the core (and the main midgame army) is still mech
What is the safest mech opening that does not rely on scouting? I generally dislike openings that rely on scouting too much, for instance only building an engineering bay early if you see a dark shrine is borderline insane in my book.
So what is the safest way to open mech considering that 80+% of the Protoss opponents either goes 4-gate, 3 gate/rob, fast blink stalkers, dt, warp prism drop etc?
I am thinking 2 rax, one with reactor one naked plus siege tanks and early engineering bay and a bunker? Only build CC inbase when you either A) Have a tank with siege mode in your base. B) Your opponent expands.
On March 29 2012 02:15 MockHamill wrote: What is the safest mech opening that does not rely on scouting? I generally dislike openings that rely on scouting too much, for instance only building an engineering bay early if you see a dark shrine is borderline insane in my book.
So what is the safest way to open mech considering that 80+% of the Protoss opponents either goes 4-gate, 3 gate/rob, fast blink stalkers, dt, warp prism drop etc?
I am thinking 2 rax, one with reactor one naked plus siege tanks and early engineering bay and a bunker? Only build CC inbase when you either A) Have a tank with siege mode in your base. B) Your opponent expands.
On March 27 2012 14:13 perser84 wrote: my problem about your games is
they are very very very long the one i saw was 54min well its like 2 armies have deathballs and refuse so fight until the map is mined out
As i often say, better to play 1H game and be sure to win after a certain point if you're good,than playing 20 minutes games where it's nothing about you but all about your opponent having enough IQ to know when he should 1 A out of his base for the win
i mean after a certain point you have the infastrukture for bc and and the uppgrades
why not force a attack with all your mech combo
or do you fear the base trade so much ?
i mean its good to see him owning like a z but
there should be a other way do reduce the game time abit
@Mock 111 expo is great for that. 2 rax is ok too but can we hard versus some allin
@perser : There is various push timings available,and in endgame you can push when you get your 'final' deathball. But i choose to wait because it makes the protoss suffer . . . :D
On March 29 2012 02:15 MockHamill wrote: What is the safest mech opening that does not rely on scouting? I generally dislike openings that rely on scouting too much, for instance only building an engineering bay early if you see a dark shrine is borderline insane in my book.
So what is the safest way to open mech considering that 80+% of the Protoss opponents either goes 4-gate, 3 gate/rob, fast blink stalkers, dt, warp prism drop etc?
I am thinking 2 rax, one with reactor one naked plus siege tanks and early engineering bay and a bunker? Only build CC inbase when you either A) Have a tank with siege mode in your base. B) Your opponent expands.
I use a 1 rax expand variation in which I get a gas at 13 or 14, mine 50 gas and get a reactor on that one rax after 2 marines. I stop gas mining until the CC and a bunker is started, then I resume gas. Depending on what I scouted I'll get a factory and start tanks and continue marine production (scouted 2 gas and no expo) or swap rax with factory and start some early hellions. Also get a second factory in that case for tank production, or get a starport and some banshees up if you like that more.
Because you got a reactor on your rax you can actually get out a decent number of marines which makes you safe against any 1 base play a protoss can do. Blink stalker all-ins are tough and you have to be really careful to not lose your first 2 or 3 tanks too early and to get some scvs into battle to repel their attack fast. But they are definitely not an autoloss. Also because the protoss scouts that your gas is taken he actually can't be sure what build you are doing, it could be anything.
That said I face 80% early expansion protosses on ladder, and if someone goes 1 base it is usually an easy win for me if they don't have 100% perfect micro and execution. I think defending 1 base all-ins is very little about the build and more about being prepared. A simple bunker with 4 marines can defend against a lot of units if you pulled the repair scvs early enough.
Also I recommend a 2 supply depot bunker walloff for the early game. Replace bunker with another depot later in the game. Helps so much against everything.
hm, the problem (imo) with reactor rax expo is that it delays the tech a lot because you delay your 100 "factory's" gas, and you'll be limited by mineral due to your first 2 marines from reactor and the CC. It's a good build to be safe versus most allin like 3G VR but it delays a lot your midgame (and it's harder to hold stuff like 2 bases immortal bust :/). I'm working on a delayed 111 (getting 15 gas) which seems good,as you can afford a relatively FE while getting the starport
did you ever loose to toss in the late game cuz there must be toss player who use their mobility like blink stalker or prism drops better then those in the replays i mean with your death ball you cant not defend every expansion at once
the good thing about this mech strat is that toss has no proper anti air
stalker archon <<<< tanks pdd carrier void ray <<<< bc viking raven :hsm
the only way i see you lose if the toss try to base trade you and that is not so easy because of sensor tower everywhere
I do never loose in lategame. Well, they cant really use their mobility as i have basically a maphack due to sensor tower + mass orbitals + turrets rings. You can just defend one expansion with hellions and 1 BC, the another with others BC and ravens,and still have your tanks at the front. And if he commits too much to his blink harass . . just let him kill your expo (you have mass CC,you dont care) and A move his weakened army
also, i'll probably start streaming again (probably tomorrow, 7pm french hour)
On March 29 2012 09:03 Lyyna wrote: hm, the problem (imo) with reactor rax expo is that it delays the tech a lot because you delay your 100 "factory's" gas, and you'll be limited by mineral due to your first 2 marines from reactor and the CC. It's a good build to be safe versus most allin like 3G VR but it delays a lot your midgame (and it's harder to hold stuff like 2 bases immortal bust :/). I'm working on a delayed 111 (getting 15 gas) which seems good,as you can afford a relatively FE while getting the starport
Yeah thats true but you don't get behind economically. Sometimes my timing is a bit messed up so I did lose to dedicated 2 base pressures in the past, but usually I have 1 or 2 ghosts out with ~3 tanks and a good amount of hellions and that shuts pretty much everything down in case of robo pressure (and after that the protoss is in trouble because there are hellions flooding everywhere through his probes because he has not enough units to spread them for defense). 1-1-1 expo is definitely not an opening based on an economic advantage, because you don't even have the ressources to afford all the units from a rax, a factory and a starport and additionally build a CC. So you have to cut units at some point to get out the CC.
I think there is no real alternative for an economic opening if you don't want to get more than 1 rax. Usually you would open 1 rax expand but thats only safe if you get a couple of rax immediately afterwards, otherwise you have a hard time against VR all ins because there is just not the marine number to deal with it.
If you never want to attack ever it doesn't make a difference if your economy is severely worse than the economy from your opponent, but if you actually have midgame timings to punish greedy protosses it will make a huge difference.
I'm not a big fan of 50+ minute games, my TvPs usually are between 17 and 30 minutes long.
edit: are you safe against VR allins with 15 gas 1-1-1? I remember that I used to play with 1-1-1 opening into FE and I barely got a viking out if they chose to go for VR, and that was with 13 gas.
well, 111 CAN be economical, you just need to cut some units to get a CC if you see he's FE'ing, as you'll not need these units, then catch up by getting a relatively fast third due to excess mineral and harassing with cloakshee. People are too much in that mindset of "I need to expo before 20 supply and never cut unit production". And at least 111 is better when it comes to hold allins ...
Well, i'll see something cheesy is coming with hellions scout, so ill have to hold a few seconds without a viking . . but he comes out relatively early
On March 29 2012 18:11 Lyyna wrote: well, 111 CAN be economical, you just need to cut some units to get a CC if you see he's FE'ing, as you'll not need these units, then catch up by getting a relatively fast third due to excess mineral and harassing with cloakshee. People are too much in that mindset of "I need to expo before 20 supply and never cut unit production". And at least 111 is better when it comes to hold allins ...
Well, i'll see something cheesy is coming with hellions scout, so ill have to hold a few seconds without a viking . . but he comes out relatively early
I guess it comes down to if you want to do a banshee followup you should open 1-1-1 expo, if you only want to get a starport for helliondrops/vikings against colossus you shouldn't open 1-1-1 expo (in my opinion).
The thing I know is that I played 1-1-1 expo in TvP for a long time and for me personally it was alright but my opening phase always felt bumpy and I was never 100% what was coming and how order my units against what. With my new opening I simply don't care and I don't have to make a lot of assumptions, the only important premisse I have to base my reasoning on is the gas count (1 or 2) and the amount of chrono boosts spent before the first stalker comes out.
edit: and as this thread is about your build which always goes cloakshee expo I think 1-1-1 is the best (safest) opening
i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can !
but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote: i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can !
but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
I explained in the guide (and like 5 times in the thread) the reason of goody stopping mech and why it doesn't rely apply to this style
@Sam : Metropolis is nice for mech. Daybreak is ok, can sometimes be hard but lategame you can easily lock key locations with PF and sensors towers. Ohana may be a bit hard but seems OK
On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote: i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can !
but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
Thank for your contribution.
Anyway, 1 1 1 doesn't always make you behind in economy because the Protoss would fear some kind of all in and will probably cuts some probes and adds robo/gates to hold an attack that will never come. :p
@Sam : Metropolis is nice for mech. Daybreak is ok, can sometimes be hard but lategame you can easily lock key locations with PF and sensors towers. Ohana may be a bit hard but seems OK
that is what I was thinking too.
Daybreak with mech might often times evolve similar to ZvP lategame (on this map) -with very positioning based, long games?
In lategame ZvP it basically comes down to top middle and bottom middle respective 6th bases and a archon toilett vs broodlord derpfeast (considering Protoss does not straight allin on this map like 80% of the times due to hard to defend 3rd)
On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote: i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can !
but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
Thank for your contribution.
Anyway, 1 1 1 doesn't always make you behind in economy because the Protoss would fear some kind of all in and will probably cuts some probes and adds robo/gates to hold an attack that will never come. :p
first thing any protoss does against a suspected 111 is get two observers. once that CC goes down they;d know what's up
Answer me this, if you will: *Immortals (shields) and stalkers (blink) are huge problems for the much more costly mech army, and how many hits they cannot take. Ghosts are out of EMPs; your answer? *Tanks and Thors do not have any advantage damage wise over Zealots and High Templar (Feedbacking the Thors and BCs makes them a problem not a solution) .
@Aaycumi : -Well, if your ghosts are out of position or energy when he engages (sensor tower), youre doing it wrong (you dont need 15 emp for each fight) . But basically,stalker are terrible vs my army (raven and tank destroy these). Immortals will have to get through a shield of hellions and thors while banshee are shotting everything. -Zealots are melted by uppgraded tanks and thors, hellions and ghosts have bonus damage against them, and banshee and BC deals good amount of damage. Well, feedbacking thor is energy's waste for him, and feedbacking BC can be penible but . . . well, , just retreat these to force HT to come in range of tanks and ghosts
@aaycumi ; this is pure theorycrafting, there are many things to do BEFORE final push that will kill protoss. You can take huge advantage with banshee cloak, helion harass... and force protoss do build specific units that will be perfect for your composition. Timings are also important, constant harrassing eco/pylons powering many gateways... It's not easy to play, that's why it's not 100% win. But it is very efficient and interesting if you have enough patience to learn it correctly and explore another way of playing tvp matchup.
This build is good, but it does not work with out adjusts like building barracks and marines at the beginning of the game because you float minerals and you have to be using those minerals when you get them. You can stop marine production when you have enough thors/tanks/hellions
On March 28 2012 09:02 Lyyna wrote: Well,the fact is that the army is still based on mech. It's a bit like TvZ marine/tank : the longer the game goes on, the more mech/viking you add,to replace your marines. And we don't call it BioMechAir Same thing here, you replace scv,hellions,and early marines with air, but the core (and the main midgame army) is still mech
Well then, yes I agree. But it sounded like in previous posts (not just from you) that, for example, if you were to remax on a more supply efficient air army, it would still be mech. Perhaps if you look at the game as a whole, yes, you can generally still say you were playing "mech" that game, only incorporating mass air in a couple occasions since they synergize so well, but if you were to look at the specific points in time during the game and name the style the terran is currently playing, you should call it and air style.
Just to make sure -- are you saying that it's not bio mech air because you were playing with mainly bio compositions throughout most of the game, or because the style is still "bio"? If you are looking to generally say what style you were playing overall, bio would make sense. But if you were to look at a specific point in time, I would call it bio not because of the previous events in that game but because at the current time, the bio tech path should be much more opened up than the other two (and have more upgrades as well). So if you were to go mech and remax on BCs at some point, overall it's still mech, sure, but during that game you still transitioned to mass air at some specific point, even if it was just shortly.
maybe there was a misunderstanding or we still disagree, but i hope i clarified a bit?
Do you have any newer replays? Some of the tvp game i watched the toss played worse than terrible (like not trying to abuse your immobility with blink stalker/collosus) and in another game you got ahead like 40 to 30 workers as he could not build probes constantly and didn't know how to chrono.
Speicifally I would appreciate if you have a replay of a tvp where the toss does most of the following things pretty well:
1) Take economic "risks", but defends harass well with either cannons or splitting up army well. 2) Abuse your immobility in the mid/late game. 3) Doesn't make huge macro/micro blunders.
On March 30 2012 20:28 Hider wrote: Do you have any newer replays? Some of the tvp game i watched the toss played worse than terrible (like not trying to abuse your immobility with blink stalker/collosus) and in another game you got ahead like 40 to 30 workers as he could not build probes constantly and didn't know how to chrono.
Speicifally I would appreciate if you have a replay of a tvp where the toss does most of the following things pretty well:
1) Take economic "risks", but defends harass well with either cannons or splitting up army well. 2) Abuse your immobility in the mid/late game. 3) Doesn't make huge macro/micro blunders.
Thanks in advance.
Tons of TopMasters replay. Still not enough to prove to viability of this build.
On March 30 2012 20:49 StimFesT wrote: Why do you choose to go for 1 armor instead of 1 weapon when you get your first armory? Is it better versus early pushes?
+1 armor Thors are incredibly durable, especially vs Zealots. It's very easy to hold most common 6-7 gate allins like this.. Also, if you are about to play macro game, it's always good to be a bit safer, then having potential to be more aggresive. But mostly, it's a matter of preference. If you are going for more Tanks, +1 attack is better I'd say.
@Yoshi :Dont really understand . But anyway this is not really important imo ^^
@Hider : there is some replays like that. For the rest, do not blame me , blame the fact protoss can get to high master/GM by playing that poor for most of them.
@Stimfest : Everlong gave the right answer. More armor allows you to keep your mech alive for a long time, especially as most toss just mass chargelots which attack twice, and +1 attack dont affect a lot vP.
On March 30 2012 21:50 Lyyna wrote: @Yoshi :Dont really understand . But anyway this is not really important imo ^^
@Hider : there is some replays like that. For the rest, do not blame me , blame the fact protoss can get to high master/GM by playing that poor for most of them.
@Stimfest : Everlong gave the right answer. More armor allows you to keep your mech alive for a long time, especially as most toss just mass chargelots which attack twice, and +1 attack dont affect a lot vP.
On March 30 2012 20:49 StimFesT wrote: Why do you choose to go for 1 armor instead of 1 weapon when you get your first armory? Is it better versus early pushes?
+1 armor Thors are incredibly durable, especially vs Zealots. It's very easy to hold most common 6-7 gate allins like this.. Also, if you are about to play macro game, it's always good to be a bit safer, then having potential to be more aggresive. But mostly, it's a matter of preference. If you are going for more Tanks, +1 attack is better I'd say.
On March 30 2012 21:50 Lyyna wrote: @Yoshi :Dont really understand . But anyway this is not really important imo ^^
@Hider : there is some replays like that. For the rest, do not blame me , blame the fact protoss can get to high master/GM by playing that poor for most of them.
@Stimfest : Everlong gave the right answer. More armor allows you to keep your mech alive for a long time, especially as most toss just mass chargelots which attack twice, and +1 attack dont affect a lot vP.
On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote: i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can !
but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
Goody isn't the god of mech, he knows how to play mech very well and he does it well, but his mechanics are god awful and his macro is terrible. He doesn't play bio because he knows he's not good enough to do it well, he's said as much in interviews. If Goody's macro and multitasking were better we'd have a better indication of how mech can perform.
Ok so, to allows me to manage my stream in a better way, i created a fb page so i can post there when i'm going to stream (first stream in less than 1h)
Because you are teching cloack for banshee, it takes long time to get enough money to thors. First you must wait to get gas for armory and then wait to get gas for thor, and you also need +1 armor according to this build order. According to build order guide this all must be done before expanding which takes very long time and meanwhile you get a lot of minerals.
The banshee expand feels pretty weak imo. Isn't there any way to get a fast expansion with mech and still be safe from 1 base all-ins? Some kind of reaper FE comes into my mind.
On March 31 2012 05:06 StimFesT wrote: The banshee expand feels pretty weak imo. Isn't there any way to get a fast expansion with mech and still be safe from 1 base all-ins? Some kind of reaper FE comes into my mind.
Reaper FE is pretty flimsy... especially against toss IMO. It's great early scouting but beyond that the reapers are pretty useless to your unit comp. Cloaked banshee openings are actually pretty strong against Toss 1 base play IMO. If they aren't doing a robo based play your banshees may outright win you the game if you have one en route to their base and use your second banshee to defend. And even if they do make a robo, it's unlikely they will get 2 obs out if they are 1 basing. The banshees are also great at sniping forward pylons to slow down pushes and gernerally allow you to expo safely to your nat by awarding you a small window of map control. Of course 1-2 bunkers is mandatory. Also, just sending out a second scout, either scv or marine to check typical places for proxy pylons can give you the edge many times against Protoss 1 base play. I think the banshee opening is fine, you just need to base the timing of your expo on decent scouting. The only things i've been having difficulty with when using cloakshee 1-1-1 is really fast stalker pressure and usually it just comes down to micro and the timing on your bunker.
On March 31 2012 05:06 StimFesT wrote: The banshee expand feels pretty weak imo. Isn't there any way to get a fast expansion with mech and still be safe from 1 base all-ins? Some kind of reaper FE comes into my mind.
Reaper FE is pretty flimsy... especially against toss IMO. It's great early scouting but beyond that the reapers are pretty useless to your unit comp. Cloaked banshee openings are actually pretty strong against Toss 1 base play IMO. If they aren't doing a robo based play your banshees may outright win you the game if you have one en route to their base and use your second banshee to defend. And even if they do make a robo, it's unlikely they will get 2 obs out if they are 1 basing. The banshees are also great at sniping forward pylons to slow down pushes and gernerally allow you to expo safely to your nat by awarding you a small window of map control. Of course 1-2 bunkers is mandatory. Also, just sending out a second scout, either scv or marine to check typical places for proxy pylons can give you the edge many times against Protoss 1 base play. I think the banshee opening is fine, you just need to base the timing of your expo on decent scouting. The only things i've been having difficulty with when using cloakshee 1-1-1 is really fast stalker pressure and usually it just comes down to micro and the timing on your bunker.
I reaper FE against protoss if I don't 1-1-1. So what, play more mind games, get 2 marauders and conc shell after the reaper. I go marine -> reaper -> mara + shells -> mara. You don't make more than one reaper... It's not at all effecting your composition.
In fact if you don't put the barracks at the ramp, and bunker it instead as you should, you can already have the tech lab for the starport if you get 2nd gas after CC starts.
And cloak banshee against 1base protoss... better be a non robo, or you will not be effective with that banshee.
Stalkers will make reapers useless
Do neither of you know what a reaper FE is? ReaperS? You make one. You scv scout the front, and reaper scout the back. Kill 2-3 probes off gas and check 2 gas or 1, nexus or no, 3 pylons or 2.
Just to add something : usually you'll get cloak AFTER the expo. I don't get cloak before expo as it'll makes it too late. Also, all builds get early double gas, allowing you to get cloak + banshee + armory in a short period of time.
So I tried this build and luckily won (1000 masters), however it was mainly cus my banshees just kinda killed his econ compltely and then i had a gigantic economic advanatage (plus at shattered its easy to secure expos). In a straight up 200 vs 200 battle my Bcs + tanks + ghosts + thors just owned his collosus/immortal/archon army. However it was really tough for me, when he would he threaten the counter attack (after I attacked him). Im not really sure how to deal with this. I mean i did have 2 planetaries defending at home but im sure he could easily kill them if he wanted to.
But how do you deal with the threat of counter attacks? Is your solution just to never attack (but what if he never attacks as well?) or do you try to position your self in a way (when you move forward) so your safe against counters?
post the replay here,i'll do a little analysis of it if you want
My personal solution is to never attack and to abuse the power of sensor tower to always be able to position perfectly. If he never attacks,np, the longer the wait, the better is your army, and the more orbital you have, while you can harass with nukes/banshees/raven to make him go mad and attack :D
On March 31 2012 23:40 Mongolbonjwa wrote: 18 double gas is too late. You should get it at 13-14 supply.
How do you deal with late game mass gateway warpings after the big battle of maxed armies where you will loose many tanks and thors etc?
Late game mech armies trade so efficiently with protoss armies that you will have plenty of units left over after the big warpin. Especially since in my case, much of my army is BC/Raven/Banshee at that point in the game so chargeot warping are kind of useless.
But protos can remax faster than terran at that point, and he has alot of money also stacked so he can just throw units at you forever until your army has been defeated.
He can remax faster , true. But remaxing twice as fast is kinda useless when you cant kill more than half of your opponents army. You'll have a lots of money and production facility, so by the time he can get 2 warp waves,you'll have your reprod ready to fight. Also, before "cutting" trough your ground army lategame, he'll first have to -Destroy every single wall/Hellions/PF/autoturrets on the way -Destroy thors with 10 scv repairing, with most chargelots dead and raven spamming point defense drone -Get in your tank lines , while getting destroyed by these tanks, and your air army.
In fact this is the worst idea for the protoss because it ends up like a reversed (and worse) TvP, because his mass T1 reprod might not even kill 20 supply of my army once i get my ultimate doomBall
Most replays labelled as "vs Gateway army" or stuff like that basically show how cost effectiveness own mass reprod (which basically one of the main idea of this strategy). Another recent game of that kind is the one vs Freman
On April 01 2012 00:36 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Why pros dont use mech versus protos if it really is as superior as you think?
Perhaps because they have experience with bio, bio still works for them, and therefore they have no reason to switch strategies. If I had experience with 2-base allins against zerg, and $10,000 was on the line, why would I use a strategy I had less experience with just because it may or may not be theoretically superior (which hasn't really been shown either way) in the long term?
I don't think it's superior. Well; i say i think bio is bad, but this is mainly because my skills fit better to mech. (but i'm more serious when i say that for example mech is more "skill rewarding", instead of bio which rely on your opponent having less IQ than APM. Most protoss don't go above 50 APM . . . ).
Well, I guess that's due to a lot of things. But Basically, 1) Pro usually don't try that kind of strange strats. I mean, ask a pro what he does think of turtling with mech vP and vZ for ages to collect easy wins, and he'll laugh at you. Pro usually prefer standard play, and . . 2) At some point,bio became standard. Strength of marauder, nerf of tanks , etc . . led to pure bio being the mainstream strat. And from here, even if some pros sometimes try mech . . 3) it'll fail because they try to play it like bio; so they loose in a retarded way and say bio is shit. That's why for example,a player like Goody was able to play mech (HIS OWN MECH. Don't go again in the "goody stopped mech vP, it shows how bad this is". Answered this enough time lol) and not others : because he was playing using a Mech "Mindset".
In fact this also makes me think something : I was able to make this style "viable" at high master level, nearly no harass and/or agressive stuff, "creating" this style in Free-Style mode (i basically never theorycrafy, i prefer to try things live. Here comes a lot of ladder loss :D) and a "slow play". I start to wonder how this could be in the hands of a pro player able to manager multi pronged banshee / hellions harass, perfect multitask and ability to micro,etc.
On April 01 2012 00:36 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Why pros dont use mech versus protos if it really is as superior as you think?
Doesn't matter if it's superior or not. The fact is this works in High Master and below. If you don't think it's viable at your level, you're either a professional SC2 player and you're considering moving to Korea to compete in GSL, or you're dumb, because this has been proven to work at your level.
On April 01 2012 00:36 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Why pros dont use mech versus protos if it really is as superior as you think?
Trying to play as pro players do is useless. Without pro level apm and micro bio is kind of crappy in late game TvP. Better to use something that is actually viable on your own level and works with more normal mechanics.
This is my concern with mech. Watch this game. Breach executes it pretty well. He loses a ton of hellions - but their job clearly is misdirection, keeping protoss off balance, and if he doesn't execute well (EEvEE does in this game) the hellions roast probes.
Now, Go to about 23 minutes into the game. Breach is sieging up to defend his fourth. EEvEE has been coming out on top in engagements for a good portion of the game. He comes to a point where he finds Breach's entire army at his fourth - and he decides to push his army, but if he turns right instead of left, he'd find that Breach's main and nat (both of which were orbitals) have absolutely no defense, and he'd have walked in with primarily blink stalkers and immortals.
On a basic level, I don't understand how unless you're playing a map like Shakuras, this situation doesn't pop up constantly when you go into long, long macro games.
On March 24 2012 03:02 HeyJude wrote: I just watched one of your replay packs.
game 1 - The toss gets a fairly early Twilight then instead of going blink/obs(which would have wrecked you, and is the logical counter to banshees) he techs DTs. You didn't win that game because mech/banshee is amazing. You won because your opponent was retarded.
game 2 - The toss does a 2gate/robo expand. He could have harassed the crap out of you when were trying to move out and expand but he did nothing. Then he all-ins you with a stalker/immortal/collosi force, in a battle where your PDDs werent even placed right and were worthless. His army comp was horrendous and he knew exactly what was coming. 15 zealots would have gone a long way in this fight.
game 3 - You kill a bunch of his probes with one cloaked banshee. For some unknown reason he decides to get one stalker then warp in 5 sentries. lol? Once again your toss opponent doesn't even poke with his stalker(s), which is incredibly stupid. I don't know what level opponents you're playing but I really don't think they're as high as you claim to be. I'm low masters and I'm a lot better than the 3 toss players I've seen you face already.
game 4 - Your opponent has no detection when your cloaked banshee hits at 9 minutes. Srs? I don't know why any toss wouldn't open 2gate-robo, especially after seeing the expand by you.
game 5 - I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but your opponent was terrible. You opened with 2 rax vs 15 nexus. He throws away his probes, doesn't make a single sentry, etc. Tbh I don't know if 15 nexus can even hold your proxy rax without taking heavy losses, but he made one zealot then 4 stalkers, stupid response.
I'm not saying mech/banshee isn't a viable strat but I think you're playing toss players at a much lower level than you so it wouldn't have mattered what your army comp was. Any time I see a FE I go 2gate/robo blink and pressure his main to keep him honest. I didn't see that in any of your games, and in all the games your opponent had decent scouting so he knew you were FE.
And your opponents seemed rather clueless about army comp. One game you had mostly thors and blue flame hellions. Your opponent masses zealots that game. There was another game the toss knew exactly what you had and countered with the worst comp possible. Iirc you had tanks/thors/marines and he went stalker/collosi/immortal but his army was 30 supply lower than yours anyway. Any time I see a Terran make a thor or tank I immediately shift my comp to include more zealots.
Maybe protoss players are too willing to go mid-late game and just macro up but as I already mentioned, most terran FE's are very vulnerable to good blink/obs harass.
*One last edit lol...I think one reason your build works well for you is the banshees give you great scouting and as long as you don't encounter early blink you'll never lose a banshee so they're extremely cost-efficient.
I am afraid I couldn't agree more with this. Your opponents were god-awful
About pros : As I explained before, don't care about pros and play what you CAN do instead of trying to copy something you don't master very well. Another reason why pro players don't go mech vs protoss : it makes game longer. When you look at most of pros, they need to play a lot of ladder games, they don't have time to play 50 min games each time.
On March 24 2012 03:02 HeyJude wrote: I just watched one of your replay packs.
game 1 - The toss gets a fairly early Twilight then instead of going blink/obs(which would have wrecked you, and is the logical counter to banshees) he techs DTs. You didn't win that game because mech/banshee is amazing. You won because your opponent was retarded.
game 2 - The toss does a 2gate/robo expand. He could have harassed the crap out of you when were trying to move out and expand but he did nothing. Then he all-ins you with a stalker/immortal/collosi force, in a battle where your PDDs werent even placed right and were worthless. His army comp was horrendous and he knew exactly what was coming. 15 zealots would have gone a long way in this fight.
game 3 - You kill a bunch of his probes with one cloaked banshee. For some unknown reason he decides to get one stalker then warp in 5 sentries. lol? Once again your toss opponent doesn't even poke with his stalker(s), which is incredibly stupid. I don't know what level opponents you're playing but I really don't think they're as high as you claim to be. I'm low masters and I'm a lot better than the 3 toss players I've seen you face already.
game 4 - Your opponent has no detection when your cloaked banshee hits at 9 minutes. Srs? I don't know why any toss wouldn't open 2gate-robo, especially after seeing the expand by you.
game 5 - I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but your opponent was terrible. You opened with 2 rax vs 15 nexus. He throws away his probes, doesn't make a single sentry, etc. Tbh I don't know if 15 nexus can even hold your proxy rax without taking heavy losses, but he made one zealot then 4 stalkers, stupid response.
I'm not saying mech/banshee isn't a viable strat but I think you're playing toss players at a much lower level than you so it wouldn't have mattered what your army comp was. Any time I see a FE I go 2gate/robo blink and pressure his main to keep him honest. I didn't see that in any of your games, and in all the games your opponent had decent scouting so he knew you were FE.
And your opponents seemed rather clueless about army comp. One game you had mostly thors and blue flame hellions. Your opponent masses zealots that game. There was another game the toss knew exactly what you had and countered with the worst comp possible. Iirc you had tanks/thors/marines and he went stalker/collosi/immortal but his army was 30 supply lower than yours anyway. Any time I see a Terran make a thor or tank I immediately shift my comp to include more zealots.
Maybe protoss players are too willing to go mid-late game and just macro up but as I already mentioned, most terran FE's are very vulnerable to good blink/obs harass.
*One last edit lol...I think one reason your build works well for you is the banshees give you great scouting and as long as you don't encounter early blink you'll never lose a banshee so they're extremely cost-efficient.
I am afraid I couldn't agree more with this. Your opponents were god-awful
The amount of flawed logic in this post is staggering. Nobody takes this guy seriously. And honestly, if you think Zealots are the way to 'counter' mech you are sorely mistaken. Turns out BFH are pretty good.
On March 24 2012 03:02 HeyJude wrote: I just watched one of your replay packs.
game 1 - The toss gets a fairly early Twilight then instead of going blink/obs(which would have wrecked you, and is the logical counter to banshees) he techs DTs. You didn't win that game because mech/banshee is amazing. You won because your opponent was retarded.
game 2 - The toss does a 2gate/robo expand. He could have harassed the crap out of you when were trying to move out and expand but he did nothing. Then he all-ins you with a stalker/immortal/collosi force, in a battle where your PDDs werent even placed right and were worthless. His army comp was horrendous and he knew exactly what was coming. 15 zealots would have gone a long way in this fight.
game 3 - You kill a bunch of his probes with one cloaked banshee. For some unknown reason he decides to get one stalker then warp in 5 sentries. lol? Once again your toss opponent doesn't even poke with his stalker(s), which is incredibly stupid. I don't know what level opponents you're playing but I really don't think they're as high as you claim to be. I'm low masters and I'm a lot better than the 3 toss players I've seen you face already.
game 4 - Your opponent has no detection when your cloaked banshee hits at 9 minutes. Srs? I don't know why any toss wouldn't open 2gate-robo, especially after seeing the expand by you.
game 5 - I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but your opponent was terrible. You opened with 2 rax vs 15 nexus. He throws away his probes, doesn't make a single sentry, etc. Tbh I don't know if 15 nexus can even hold your proxy rax without taking heavy losses, but he made one zealot then 4 stalkers, stupid response.
I'm not saying mech/banshee isn't a viable strat but I think you're playing toss players at a much lower level than you so it wouldn't have mattered what your army comp was. Any time I see a FE I go 2gate/robo blink and pressure his main to keep him honest. I didn't see that in any of your games, and in all the games your opponent had decent scouting so he knew you were FE.
And your opponents seemed rather clueless about army comp. One game you had mostly thors and blue flame hellions. Your opponent masses zealots that game. There was another game the toss knew exactly what you had and countered with the worst comp possible. Iirc you had tanks/thors/marines and he went stalker/collosi/immortal but his army was 30 supply lower than yours anyway. Any time I see a Terran make a thor or tank I immediately shift my comp to include more zealots.
Maybe protoss players are too willing to go mid-late game and just macro up but as I already mentioned, most terran FE's are very vulnerable to good blink/obs harass.
*One last edit lol...I think one reason your build works well for you is the banshees give you great scouting and as long as you don't encounter early blink you'll never lose a banshee so they're extremely cost-efficient.
I am afraid I couldn't agree more with this. Your opponents were god-awful
The amount of flawed logic in this post is staggering. Nobody takes this guy seriously. And honestly, if you think Zealots are the way to 'counter' mech you are sorely mistaken. Turns out BFH are pretty good.
Yeah they're good if they get into a ball and it's only zealots. The thing you're not realising is that protoss can engage, trade all his zealots for your helions, fall back and warp in a new round before you're able to replenish a critical mass of helions. then your tank line is in trouble.
also did anyone watch the AHGL game 5 between palantir and google? i think it displays pretty well the problems with immobility in the late game. even a robo heavy protoss army moves faster than thors.
And he'll warp 25/30 zealots,and as soon as you realize he's getting low stalker count, you just force engagement with banshees BC and raven. And will still have to deal with thors, tanks,wall,etc. And if he's waiting for a 2nd zealot wave your hellions will be here
watching the game,will edit after First of all, tal'darim Altar. The worst map ever for lategame TvP, regardless of the terran's style.
The terran open 111 expo vs a super fast 1 gate FE. hmm . . tal'darim is one of the few maps where you can try a risky super FE. Terran get attacks uppgrades, bad idea 15 min, no sensor towers, no xel'naga for the terran, no hellion or banshees on the map. Ofc the toss can abuse his mobility in that case. The terran is getting vikings, so he can't use his air as a mobile force. No PF at 3rd, LOL. 20 min, stil no sensor towers, no map control. Still on vikings/hellions/thors/ghost, and always use his whole army to counter harass Terran still wins the first big engagement
Ok guy, this is ridiculous. I say that i abuse the power of sensor towers and banshee countain to avoid mobility's issue, as well as PF at expansions, using hellions/air to defend harassment while still being able to prevent backstab with these sensors towers. And to argue that a protoss can abuse mech mobility,you link a replay of a T with basically 0 map control (0 sensor, 0 xel control, 0 use of hellions of banshees), who goes vikings (so he cant use his air to defend) and who uses his WHOLE ARMY to defend little harassment, that all on the worst TvP map (even with bio). Ahem .. . . It's like saying storm is OP and proving it with a replay of a terran who goes pure marine and never try to split/dodge.
On April 01 2012 03:59 Lyyna wrote: And he'll warp 25/30 zealots,and as soon as you realize he's getting low stalker count, you just force engagement with banshees BC and raven. And will still have to deal with thors, tanks,wall,etc. And if he's waiting for a 2nd zealot wave your hellions will be here
watching the game,will edit after First of all, tal'darim Altar. The worst map ever for lategame TvP, regardless of the terran's style.
The terran open 111 expo vs a super fast 1 gate FE. hmm . . tal'darim is one of the few maps where you can try a risky super FE. Terran get attacks uppgrades, bad idea 15 min, no sensor towers, no xel'naga for the terran, no hellion or banshees on the map. Ofc the toss can abuse his mobility in that case. The terran is getting vikings, so he can't use his air as a mobile force. No PF at 3rd, LOL. 20 min, stil no sensor towers, no map control. Still on vikings/hellions/thors/ghost, and always use his whole army to counter harass Terran still wins the first big engagement
Ok guy, this is ridiculous. I say that i abuse the power of sensor towers and banshee countain to avoid mobility's issue, as well as PF at expansions, using hellions/air to defend harassment while still being able to prevent backstab with these sensors towers. And to argue that a protoss can abuse mech mobility,you link a replay of a T with basically 0 map control (0 sensor, 0 xel control, 0 use of hellions of banshees), who goes vikings (so he cant use his air to defend) and who uses his WHOLE ARMY to defend little harassment, that all on the worst TvP map (even with bio). Ahem .. . . It's like saying storm is OP and proving it with a replay of a terran who goes pure marine and never try to split/dodge.
i didn't really mean late game when you have mounds of bcs. obviously no one is going to warp in a bunch of zealots against bcs. I'm talking more of mid game timings where you have thors/tanks/helions.
as for the game, you're ignoring the core concept i was trying to get at. for example, the zealot poke/main army attack at the 16 minute mark. he's able to shut down the natural because the army is forced out of position. this is something he's able to abuse even more later on. since your helions are your reactionary force to harassment, it's easy to pull them out of position and then attack the main army with no buffer.
please stop getting so defensive about your style, everyone here's just trying to learn something
Don't forget that you also have banshees and ghosts at that point to. And he'll not have enough gates midgame to really be threathening, or if he's getting mass gates and pure zealot,just enjoy the power of thor/hellion with like 3 reactored fact, or go earlier BC. Add earlier middle PF and wall too
well, the zealot poke is successful because 1) no xel'naga (he don't see the main army coming) 2) no sensor tower at natural (same thing, and this is a key positon) 3) no PF at third And if you read what i said, one of my ways to resolve mobilitys issues are these PF. As i also said, he does use ALL his army to react to every harass . . .
I'm not getting defensive. Just tired of people reacting to my style by pointing flaws which are basically the ones i worked hard to try and solve.
Lyyna: Ok so I realized I had too many tanks in that (not enough thors). I think around 10 tanks is a decent number late game (?) Though I have seen games where you have less. Can you give me some comments on what factors influences your tank count?
Anyway so I lost a lot of games doing this, and I kinda feel like its similar to bio in the matter that if you have a bad position you lose + you need to hit some really good emps.
At last I just won a game against an IMO really bad player who IMO played absolutely retarded as he could easily have killed some of my expos, but turned out he was stupid (lucikly for me).
The problem I have with this game is that we army traded when he engaged me, which obv. is not good for me. I think while my positioning wasn't perfect it wasn't awfull either (but maybe i am wrong). Anyway maybe I got BC's out to late (as I forgot to build fusion core and hence had 4 starports idle for 1-2 mins). It probably could have helped to get them out earlier, but on the other hand I feel like I lack a lot of gas, and I feel like i can't really start BC produciton before I get satruated on 4 bases.
Of other mistakes I made was that I forgot to sack scvs. But if i had sacked like 20-30 scvs I would probably just have replaced them with 10 hellions more and perhaps another OC. IM not sure if that really would have changed the outcome of the first battle that much. And I still think that this would be a situation where you would have crushed his army.
Obv. the opening was my own, as I kinda felt like it isn't that relevant to hurt his eco (by banshee harass). What I think matters most is my ability to take a 3rd quickly, and get more gas fasters. So this is what I tried to do this game. But im not really interested in analysing the specific bo yet. What I am more more interessted in trying to figure out is the exact unit composition/army movement/positioning. I hope you can give me some advice.
I dont really have any specific rules for making siege tanks lategame. Basically i'll aim to get around 10, but will not hesitate to get more IF i feel i do have enough gas to get my air force and ghosts at the same time
Watching rep, editing after
Opening is a personal choice,seems ok. Very greedy fast 3rd
Little thing : at 20 minutes, you put your army in front of your 4th pf. Bad idea, put it on the side of the PF so it'll take some damage instead of your army
he isn't agressive at all. You should have got the whole left side on the map with PF and sensors, to make him feel in a bad shape. You have a lots of mineral so you can just spam expo !
22 min fight : your ghosts and some thors are behind your tanks. You have no hellions to take damage. And as i said, you're in front of your PF This fight and the few next minutes are basically why i choose to get banshees with cloak (and at least a raven) in my army : he can't kill your army like that and get away with a lots of units surviving. Also it forces him to get obs out of his robo instead of immortals/colossus, meaning he can't do a fast 2nd big push with robo tech units
Too much workers too. You need to abuse the huge mineral bank you have to get a lots of orbitals and sacrifice your workers.
On April 01 2012 05:05 Lyyna wrote: I dont really have any specific rules for making siege tanks lategame. Basically i'll aim to get around 10, but will not hesitate to get more IF i feel i do have enough gas to get my air force and ghosts at the same time
Watching rep, editing after
Ok. But I am myself not sure what kind of units to prioritze. Like when do I need to prioritze BC's over thors. Tank over thors. Ravens?
Basically, You do not really "prioritiz" stuff. You try to progressively add stuff to your main army. You add marines first, then thor and banshee, then you get hellions, then ghosts and tanks instead of thors and marines, then BC and ravens instead of banshees Basically, mid game you prioritize tanks and ghosts over everything else. Lategame you prioritize what you're missing the most. If you have like 15 tanks and 20 hellions, but no air, just send 10 hellions into him and get 20 supply of air. Your core army should be like 4-8 ghosts, ~~10 tanks, 2-4 thors, ~~6 BC, 4 ravens, then add stuff depending of what he's getting
On April 01 2012 05:23 Lyyna wrote: Basically, You do not really "prioritiz" stuff. You try to progressively add stuff to your main army. You add marines first, then thor and banshee, then you get hellions, then ghosts and tanks instead of thors and marines, then BC and ravens instead of banshees Basically, mid game you prioritize tanks and ghosts over everything else. Lategame you prioritize what you're missing the most. If you have like 15 tanks and 20 hellions, but no air, just send 10 hellions into him and get 20 supply of air. Your core army should be like 4-8 ghosts, ~~10 tanks, 2-4 thors, ~~6 BC, 4 ravens, then add stuff depending of what he's getting
So you try to get that unit composition no matter what he does?
Yes, and then i'll add other stuff to adapt. But having a bit of everything is needed due to . . well, the warp mechanic : having these 10 tanks is priceless if you overmake BC and he respond with mass stalkers for example :D
Abuse of cloakshee :D It's a bit tricky though. I would suggest that, if you realize your opponent is preparing a big late push, get earlier BC. Cut tanks/thor for like 2 minutes and get these BC out. Also use your minerals to get PF/walls
On April 01 2012 05:05 Lyyna wrote: I dont really have any specific rules for making siege tanks lategame. Basically i'll aim to get around 10, but will not hesitate to get more IF i feel i do have enough gas to get my air force and ghosts at the same time
Watching rep, editing after
Opening is a personal choice,seems ok. Very greedy fast 3rd
Little thing : at 20 minutes, you put your army in front of your 4th pf. Bad idea, put it on the side of the PF so it'll take some damage instead of your army
he isn't agressive at all. You should have got the whole left side on the map with PF and sensors, to make him feel in a bad shape. You have a lots of mineral so you can just spam expo !
22 min fight : your ghosts and some thors are behind your tanks. You have no hellions to take damage. And as i said, you're in front of your PF This fight and the few next minutes are basically why i choose to get banshees with cloak (and at least a raven) in my army : he can't kill your army like that and get away with a lots of units surviving. Also it forces him to get obs out of his robo instead of immortals/colossus, meaning he can't do a fast 2nd big push with robo tech units
Too much workers too. You need to abuse the huge mineral bank you have to get a lots of orbitals and sacrifice your workers.
Well it just seems kinda gimmicky to rely on cloacked banshees to survive. I mean what if he has 2-4 observers, and has at least one of them behind his army.
So in the fight you might you kill one of the observers. Then he will warp in 10-15 stalkers and bring his other observer, and I guess I can't always be lucky and have a planetary to rely on.
I feel like the cloacked banshee thing is something that will often work, but mostly againsts opponents who aren't prepared for it. I would rather focus on working on being more solid on the fundementals than abusing the fact that opponents are not prepared for it.
Your definitely correct that I had 2 thors a behind my army, though ghosts were prett close to the action (like in second line) I think. Regarding staying behind the planetary, I throught I may could slowpush and attack his 3rd, and still crush him in a straight up battle. I definitely think I could have done it had I had around 50 scvs. (10-15 hellions more I guess) to tank a bit (though he really had no chargelots) + the 2 thors in front.
Regarding taking more expansions earlier, I think that would be abusing the fact that he played extremely stupid. Any sane player would deny me those extra expansions. Again I rather try to learn the fundementals instead of absuing extreme mistakes.
I did end up taking the 5th or 6th but even that was kinda abusive. A sane player could probably warp in a few blink stalkers and make my life miserable (how would you deal with that btw).
Well, it's not gimmick. It's a bit like saying it seems gimmicky that a HT/Zealot protoss rely on storm to survive : your army can still handle a direct fight in most cases. I usually "only" have 4/5 banshees, and cloak is mainly an added benefit: but overall banshee are really good with mech due to their insane dps
In this scenario, np, you just retreat your banshees, and wait for your reprod to come. And during this,he's making more obs out of his robo, so you know he's not going to do a big 2nd push with mass robo tech. And that's assuming everything but your banshees died, which usually isn't the case , but the problem here is your lack of hellions and bad positionning leading to most of your tanks dying quickly
I also want to play solid and as i said, cloak is mainly an added benefit to the banshee , which is already really good by itself.
well; slowpushing is imo a relatively bad idea, because it makes you vulnerable to these mobility issue : he can just push in your natural for example, forcing unsiege, ripping a lots of buildings in main + destroying your slow push's buildings
Well, the expansion thing is simple : you have 4/5k minerals in a lot of situations. Why not using it to get CC to land it on an unused expansion? If you spam mules on it, it'll take only seconds to pay for itself, and you don't really care if he attacks it : just take a little amounts of banshees/hellions,deflect harass,destroy his pylon, and go back mining . Or just build another CC and do it again. How can a "sane player" deny it? by sending his whole army to destroy expansions at the other side of the map while your own is at his frontdoor?
Well, usually just by bringing a few cloakshee to destroy the stalkers and the pylon. If he's really insisting on that, i just put a tank for each expo
On April 01 2012 06:54 Lyyna wrote: Well, it's not gimmick. It's a bit like saying it seems gimmicky that a HT/Zealot protoss rely on storm to survive : your army can still handle a direct fight in most cases. I usually "only" have 4/5 banshees, and cloak is mainly an added benefit: but overall banshee are really good with mech due to their insane dps
In this scenario, np, you just retreat your banshees, and wait for your reprod to come. And during this,he's making more obs out of his robo, so you know he's not going to do a big 2nd push with mass robo tech. And that's assuming everything but your banshees died, which usually isn't the case , but the problem here is your lack of hellions and bad positionning leading to most of your tanks dying quickly
I also want to play solid and as i said, cloak is mainly an added benefit to the banshee , which is already really good by itself.
well; slowpushing is imo a relatively bad idea, because it makes you vulnerable to these mobility issue : he can just push in your natural for example, forcing unsiege, ripping a lots of buildings in main + destroying your slow push's buildings
Well, the expansion thing is simple : you have 4/5k minerals in a lot of situations. Why not using it to get CC to land it on an unused expansion? If you spam mules on it, it'll take only seconds to pay for itself, and you don't really care if he attacks it : just take a little amounts of banshees/hellions,deflect harass,destroy his pylon, and go back mining . Or just build another CC and do it again. How can a "sane player" deny it? by sending his whole army to destroy expansions at the other side of the map while your own is at his frontdoor?
Well, usually just by bringing a few cloakshee to destroy the stalkers and the pylon. If he's really insisting on that, i just put a tank for each expo
Well I mean if you rely on cloacked banshees to survive it just seems gimmicky, as he can overcome that if he has a backup observer.
The difference between the above and HT/chargelot is that there are no easy counter to well microed HT. But if the toss plays very intelligent he can make cloacked banshees inefficient.
Since the discussion was whether to survive (you responded to the guy above) I assumed there is no realistic option of retreating. Sure I like the idea of cloacked banshees being beneficial (like they are benefical in tvt mech vs bio). But I just dislike banshees, if you only can survive against a specific timing push if your opponent doesn't have a back up observer.
Regarding landing the expansion it could definitely be efficient mineral-income wise, but minerals isn't really what we want. Its geysers that makes the difference. And I feel like a sane toss should always deny a mech player expansions that he can't defend with tanks. As we normally only have 10-15 hellions, it doesn't seem to be enough to actually counter a small group of blink stalkers. And do you really use a little group of tanks to defend against harass on the other side of the map? But this is where the real neccesity of cloacked banshees (in a non gimmicky way) might come into hand (as you suggested). I guess 4-7 cloacked banshees + 10-15 hellions can deal with 10-15 blink stalkers pretty decently. And of course if he uses more blink stalkers his main army will be extremely vulnerable.
So I guess afterall cloacked banshee might be a solid choice.
I don't totally rely on it, it helps. Think of it as backup banshees :p
The other difference between HT/Zealot and banshee/mech, is that if you remove banshee and HT, your mech army should still work. Especially if you play with low scv count, your army will be better than his
Retreating isn't really useful when you're at your base :D Defensive play Hm, If it's only due to some specific timing push . .well, the point of defending a timing push is usually to scout and adapt to counter it. Banshee aren't here for that but to be used as a general back up unit.
yes, we want geysers, but you can just land your expo, get the mineral for it in like 15 sec from mules, and get insta geysers too. And the protoss can really totally deny you all mining 100% of the time. To defend harass with tanks, it's just like one or two tanks for each expo. If he really commits to it by sending a lots of stalkers,yeah, banshees and hellions AND ravens deals with it pretty well.
On April 01 2012 07:35 Lyyna wrote: I don't totally rely on it, it helps. Think of it as backup banshees :p
The other difference between HT/Zealot and banshee/mech, is that if you remove banshee and HT, your mech army should still work. Especially if you play with low scv count, your army will be better than his
Retreating isn't really useful when you're at your base :D Defensive play Hm, If it's only due to some specific timing push . .well, the point of defending a timing push is usually to scout and adapt to counter it. Banshee aren't here for that but to be used as a general back up unit.
yes, we want geysers, but you can just land your expo, get the mineral for it in like 15 sec from mules, and get insta geysers too. And the protoss can really totally deny you all mining 100% of the time. To defend harass with tanks, it's just like one or two tanks for each expo. If he really commits to it by sending a lots of stalkers,yeah, banshees and hellions AND ravens deals with it pretty well.
Well I just understood your answer from above, as theat they were nesscary. But I guess I just misinterpreted you.
On April 01 2012 06:18 Lyyna wrote: Abuse of cloakshee :D
I feel like you might be missing an important point here Lyyna. Mech often relies on having a favorable terrain, especially against Protoss, to be so cost effective as to get to the late game in a great position like that. If the Protoss can't engage you because you're sieged up behind your mobile Barracks chokes and you always know where he is because of sensor towers, you can get to your doom ball of BC/Thor/Tank.
The point is that you get huge amounts of utility from using the excess mineral buildup you get with mech to build barracks/ebay/planetary walls and tons of excess orbitals to not only make your army stronger in the late game by having less SCVs, but also to make it so that the Protoss can never engage you favorably. When I finally feel safe being aggressive with my army, I take a bunch of SCVs with me to not just repair, but to build Barracks walls where I need them on the actual battlefield. It's similar to how you see some Korean (bio) Terrans landing Factories in the middle of engagements against Protoss to make the terrain more favorable.
This, for me, in addition to the use of sensor towers, is the key to Mech TvP.
This is an interesting idea. I never use it because i never feel the need to, but yeah, this could be something really good. I'll try to test it a bit.
On April 01 2012 08:27 crocodile wrote: I feel like you might be missing an important point here Lyyna. Mech often relies on having a favorable terrain, especially against Protoss, to be so cost effective as to get to the late game in a great position like that. If the Protoss can't engage you because you're sieged up behind your mobile Barracks chokes and you always know where he is because of sensor towers, you can get to your doom ball of BC/Thor/Tank.
The point is that you get huge amounts of utility from using the excess mineral buildup you get with mech to build barracks/ebay/planetary walls and tons of excess orbitals to not only make your army stronger in the late game by having less SCVs, but also to make it so that the Protoss can never engage you favorably. When I finally feel safe being aggressive with my army, I take a bunch of SCVs with me to not just repair, but to build Barracks walls where I need them on the actual battlefield. It's similar to how you see some Korean (bio) Terrans landing Factories in the middle of engagements against Protoss to make the terrain more favorable.
This, for me, in addition to the use of sensor towers, is the key to Mech TvP.
In a straight up battle your suppoed to crush the toss army no matter what. I think planetary walls/barrack walls should mainly be used to deny counter attack paths. Definitely something that would be veyr usefull in mech tvz as well.
Lyyna: Anyway i've been using some semiheavy banshee play in the midgame, and it really works well as the protoss doesn't expect 4-5 banshees attackin his base. However I don't really feel that happy transitioning into BC's. At least not on the most mobile maps. Im not sure why they are used instead of banshees. I realize they are stronger in a straight up fight and yamato cannon is really good vs collosus. I think they are definitely a great unit on a map like shakuras, but what about a map where its harder to secure expos (tal darim)? Why not have like 8-15 banshees combined with some ravens.
That might make us vulnerable to a carrier tech switch though so one would need to scan a lot. But the amount of damage you would be able to do is insane. Toss would need to have like 10+ cannons to defend vs the banshees.
Do you have any experience with heavy banshee play and delaying or never getting bcs and combining it with heavy harass?
But you DON'T crush the Toss army no matter what. That is the basis of many of the anti mech tvp arguments. However if you make it so the Toss can never engage you favorably it's a different story. And yes, more Banshees is better on maps like Tal'Darim where it's harder to take/defend expos.
How do you stop MASS vrays? Thors and bcs melt vs them and vikings arent the best either. Could also be attainable off 3-4 bases from toss so it would be up before your bc/raven deathball gets going.
You should be constantly scouting for an air switch, and you should generally have Vikings by the time they can do such a thing. The Viking/BC/Thor element of your army should be able to handle the Void Rays especially if you alter your composition after scouting it.
I've noticed that you're much lighter on the port-techlab upgrades in the most recent replays, excluding the mass phoenix game on zerg temple (and I'm curious about that game, it was the only game you got every raven upgrade, and you hadn't yet scouted a stargate or any phoenix, what prompted you to get the upgrades in this game?), and typically more thor heavy in your end composition (~6 thors instead of 3 I think before) and more viking heavy, is there a particular reason why you're doing this? In some (but not all) games involving heavy air by protoss you've gotten seeker missile and nothing else, and I can't recall a single game in the latest pack where you got cloak (for banshee). Also, you got mech attack upgrades! You were much more aggressive with your army too (relatively), is that just a function of becoming more comfortable with this endgame composition? These seem to contradict what you advocate in your guide. Are you just trying this out, or has something specific influenced you into executing the style in this manner?
@Hider : the main reason for getting BC at some point is that BC + raven are good versus everything. They force stalker instead of zealots (so he has to invest gas into his gateway force), they destroy protoss air,they make pure robo army shit,etc. But thanks to cloak, i can usually keep 2-3 banshees alive and use them with hellions to defend. The main problem of massing banshees (which is really good vs ground) is that you're fucked versus an air transition
@da_head : ravens and ghosts. 1) EMP 2)HSM 3)??? 4) Enjoy his rage
@Chaggi : because i prefer to get Feedback on thors rather than storm on tanks line or air army. Feedback isn't a bigdeal and let you some times to EMP all the templars.
@Nightmarjoo : which games did you watch? the ones in the folders or in the zipped packs?
On April 01 2012 18:06 Lyyna wrote: @Hider : the main reason for getting BC at some point is that BC + raven are good versus everything. They force stalker instead of zealots (so he has to invest gas into his gateway force), they destroy protoss air,they make pure robo army shit,etc. But thanks to cloak, i can usually keep 2-3 banshees alive and use them with hellions to defend. The main problem of massing banshees (which is really good vs ground) is that you're fucked versus an air transition
@da_head : ravens and ghosts. 1) EMP 2)HSM 3)??? 4) Enjoy his rage
@Chaggi : because i prefer to get Feedback on thors rather than storm on tanks line or air army. Feedback isn't a bigdeal and let you some times to EMP all the templars.
@Nightmarjoo : which games did you watch? the ones in the folders or in the zipped packs?
By "fucked" do you mean that its impossible to win if you have 12 banshees in your army (having 2-3 BC's less), or that its just harder to beat an air transition, but still possible with very good scouting.
12 banshees is far more than 2-3 BC, so it'll be REALLY hard to handle the air transition. Possible if he wait too much, but if he gets like 4-6 carriers with ground army you're lost
On April 01 2012 20:23 Lyyna wrote: 12 banshees is far more than 2-3 BC, so it'll be REALLY hard to handle the air transition. Possible if he wait too much, but if he gets like 4-6 carriers with ground army you're lost
Yeh I was thinking more in terms of gas (included fusion core + yamato)
But why can't 4-6 carriers be beat by adding vikings combined with ravens?
Carriers are tougher to beat than you would think. Also you have to think in terms of supply in late game, not money. ALSO a BC is equal to 2 banshees in terms of supply and only 100 minerals more in cost.
@Hider : to beat 4/6 carriers, you would need like 12 vikings at least,and that would still be close. And you'll end up in the same situation as bio vs colossus : lots of vikings in the air, useless versus his ground force. BC destroy carriers AND everything on the ground
Guys you are approaching this wrong. From my games I made a conclusion that you can't beat mech straight foward in late game with P no matter what path you choose to go : Air,immortal,archon,gateway with ht,mothership etc. The way to beat is with great harass, multitask and expanding, forcing bad fights. Basicly you are playing P the same way you are playing bio T.
@Lyyna I realized you almost always use Yamato Cannon very late during battles.. Is this on purpose? I'd say Yamato Cannon should be priority 1-2 maybe after PDD/EMP or sieging tanks.
@Mongolbonjwa : there is the dates of the replays in the name of each pack
@Everlong : Well , basically -Siege tank has to be done first for obvious reasons -If you EMP too late, it becomes useless as it'll remove no shield at all. Also, EMP carriers before yamato allows to OS them -If you PDD too late, you loose a lots of units before PDD can protect these So finally Yamato must be used after these 3 things at least
On April 01 2012 21:48 Lyyna wrote: @Hider : to beat 4/6 carriers, you would need like 12 vikings at least,and that would still be close. And you'll end up in the same situation as bio vs colossus : lots of vikings in the air, useless versus his ground force. BC destroy carriers AND everything on the ground
I see your point, and I completely agree that if we know he is going carriers BC is a much much better option than banshees.
However lets assume (for the sake of the discussion) that there would be possiblity of him going carriers (or VR's) would you then prefer banshees over BC's? Or do you still find yamato against archons/collosus too valuable?
Anyway (not related to the above assumption) I am still interest in testing getting 5+ banshees and delaying BC's till I actually scout that he is getting stargates up (maybe I would build a blind fusion core so I could react quicker). Obv. constant scanning becoems extremely important with this kind of play as I need to produce BC's as a response to carriers rather than a blind counter. I feel like (if I get good at this) that this has a lot of potentital. I mean how do you respond to hellion + banshee harass in the later stages of midgame/late game?
The protoss player would need to have a few observers with obs speed + a pretty good blink stalker control to deal with the potentital harass.
But obv. having a lot of blink stalkers (like 20+) makes his army much worsein a straight up fight against tank/pdd/thors.
Lyyna or someone else mech expert, could you review my macro with this build? I played alone in shattered temple, because my goal was just to macro atleast decently.
I've been playing around with this style, and I'm not too sure if I'm winning cause this style is good, or if no one's seen this style before and has no idea what the hell to do.
@Hider : one of the main reason i do prefer BC is that they're good versus everything and allows you to handle dangerous late game tech switch
Hm, the problem with that would be hidden stargates. I personnally dont have the multitask to harass efficiently lategane, but for a fast enough player it could be a good idea
@Mongolbonwa : Well, except the banshee harass which is really light , i dont harass at all IIf he blinks + obs harass, a good thing is to use a turret ring + a thor at your base edge, to snipe the obs from really far
However lets assume (for the sake of the discussion) that there would be no possiblity of him going carriers (or VR's) would you then prefer banshees over BC's? Or do you still find yamato against archons/collosus too valuable?
But I interpret your comments as that you agree with me that banshees (given that assumption) would be superior.
BC's are probably the "easy" solution in the sense that you have a stronger allround army, but as you (indirectly) state your self, heavy banshee play probably has more potential.
Superior, i'm not sure, mass banshee would be terribly vulnerable in a direct fight (and i aim to win direct fights). But in the hands of a fast player able to multi-harass they would be deadly i guess
I've tried this build but it's not working for me. I reach the stage of the game where me and toss have half the map, we both are 200/200 but i guess missing ravens is really hurting me ? What is the perfect comp for the first 200/200 army before the first engagement ? If i win that engagement with half my units left should i press on and risk getting killed by fast warp ins ? Should i stay and defend get another base maybe but be vulnerable to tech switches maybe ?
How do you handle efficient protoss harass? I guess you would use the surplus of minerals to build turrets but I feel like the protoss can always find a way around the defences. Building 15 turrets to defend your main isn't very cost efficient
My question: I have a lot of problem when the protoss do a big army and stop me to take my third. Similaire to your last game ?
Your answer : more tank and snipe the obs ?
But im not sure because even if you keep your 3banshee alive, his 5 immortel would rape your tank.. My solution: (im not totaly sure) do a 2base timing push(10-12min) it will force the protoss to be defensif and you'll be able to take your third without pressure from him.
I agree. Do a 2 base timing push around 150 food. This will keep the Protoss on the defensive while you secure your third. However don't commit to it.
It's okay if you trade relatively evenly, but you don't want to end up putting yourself in a bad position because you tried to kill him with a non-optimized timing attack. It's okay to pull back if you feel the Protoss' army is getting too big.
I do find that I can do some significant damage this way though, and when my mechanics are good I can do some strong multi-pronged harass with Banshees and Hellions during the push that usually does damage.
Granted, I usually go Tanks before Thors so my build is different from Lyyna's and thus the timing push works out differently than it would if you used Lyyna's build to the tee.
On April 03 2012 07:01 FreshVegetables wrote: This guy is extremly BM.
Who?
The thread starter Lyyna, on top of that this strategy isn't viable on high levels. When protosses get used to playing vs this, it's going to be useless.
Nobody cares about that, it's been discussed to death and you're not helping the discussion. You should consider contributing to the thread when you make posts in the future.
On April 03 2012 07:01 FreshVegetables wrote: This guy is extremly BM.
Who?
The thread starter Lyyna, on top of that this strategy isn't viable on high levels. When protosses get used to playing vs this, it's going to be useless.
Well, it CAN be on maps with easy 3 bases and good decission making, but i think this is too immobile. Your kind of letting protoss dictate the game, therefore your relying on that the protoss doesnt know how to play vs this. I think it may win games up to lowish gm. But in all honesty i dont see this working in high level tournament play.
Sorry if I sounded offensive. Thats all I ment.
I might actually give this build a try as a trollbuild seems like fun.
I don't think your post deserves a response, as you'll probably find your argument refuted at least once per page on every single one of the 19 pages of this thread.
But protos cannot do anything to maxed mech army with right composition. Only problem is if terran cannot expand beyond third base, and in most maps its really hard.
On April 03 2012 01:34 Lyyna wrote: Superior, i'm not sure, mass banshee would be terribly vulnerable in a direct fight (and i aim to win direct fights). But in the hands of a fast player able to multi-harass they would be deadly i guess
also, stream in 30 minutes
Have you tried testing the units in the unit tester? Banshees are a lot better against stalkers than BC's.
On April 03 2012 07:38 FreshVegetables wrote: Well, it CAN be on maps with easy 3 bases and good decission making, but i think this is too immobile. Your kind of letting protoss dictate the game, therefore your relying on that the protoss doesnt know how to play vs this. I think it may win games up to lowish gm. But in all honesty i dont see this working in high level tournament play.
Sorry if I sounded offensive. Thats all I ment.
I might actually give this build a try as a trollbuild seems like fun.
Ah, I see now where you're going.
I'm not Puma. Lynna is not MarineKing. If I hit 'lowish gm' I would be the happiest guy on this board. I don't think anyone who's reading, contributing, and trying this build has any aspirations to be a professional in top tournament play.
Now I refuse to arrgue if it is or isn't, being as I'm not on that scene I can't speak to that, but for the purposes of the people talking here and myself: this thread is awesome. Don't be a troll.
On April 03 2012 01:34 Lyyna wrote: Superior, i'm not sure, mass banshee would be terribly vulnerable in a direct fight (and i aim to win direct fights). But in the hands of a fast player able to multi-harass they would be deadly i guess
also, stream in 30 minutes
Have you tried testing the units in the unit tester? Banshees are a lot better against stalkers than BC's.
I think it depends on amount of stalkers. I think the BC's armor would give them a lot more staying power. Banshee deal a TON of damage, true, but if there's an observer on the field they start to fall very quickly to large stalker numbers.
On April 03 2012 07:38 FreshVegetables wrote: Well, it CAN be on maps with easy 3 bases and good decission making, but i think this is too immobile. Your kind of letting protoss dictate the game, therefore your relying on that the protoss doesnt know how to play vs this. I think it may win games up to lowish gm. But in all honesty i dont see this working in high level tournament play.
Sorry if I sounded offensive. Thats all I ment.
I might actually give this build a try as a trollbuild seems like fun.
Ah, I see now where you're going.
I'm not Puma. Lynna is not MarineKing. If I hit 'lowish gm' I would be the happiest guy on this board. I don't think anyone who's reading, contributing, and trying this build has any aspirations to be a professional in top tournament play.
Now I refuse to arrgue if it is or isn't, being as I'm not on that scene I can't speak to that, but for the purposes of the people talking here and myself: this thread is awesome. Don't be a troll.
Bad troll....bad.
His comment was terrible, but this isn't the point. I think most people dont want to use a build that only works if the opponent doesn't know how to play. I my self at least dont really care that much about winning or losing. I wanna play right. If you just want easy "wins" then this build most likely isn't for you.
Exactly. But I think that, when a game goes 50 minutes like most of Lyyna's games do, a Protoss knows exactly what's going on. If this is a *surprirse* build it's the worst one in the world. It takes 50 minutes to develop, so if the Toss doesn't know what you're doing when you start he'll certainly know by mid-game. Despite that Lynna and others still win.
This build works, even against those who know it's coming.
Sorry to party poop, but I just want to express my thoughts on meching something its been explored to deaths contrary to popular beliefs by many.
Meching in TvP is very very difficult and I just cant see any advantages over standard bio play outside of timings (like banshee/thor, 4/3 fact timing with marines/hellions/tanks etc). Ive been doing mech/skyterran w/e that is not BIO for well over a year now in SEA GM league. What I get from mech is that P players who haven't dealth with mech will often die horribly but the most important thing is that it doesn't matter what mech composition you have in these scenarios.
The P players who aren't firmiliar with mech won't aggressively expand since you just cant go "kill' with an mech army especially if its tank based (as a core), building no cannons to fend off hellion harass (i mean like 5 per base in the late game and these are very good), not simcity-ing for hellion runbys, not exploiting immobility by hitting a bunch of places at once, will attack into a defensive tank line with PFs, not abusing the fact that carrier tech switch + HTs and stalkers will be quite unstoppable and the list goes on. They play like against BIO and lose but with a little bit of experience against mech, they will crush or give the opponent a very rough time.
Turtling up to 3 bases is not so difficult but smart Ps can be on 4 or 5 bases by this time (and more later). Unlike BW where the T is out numbered in expansions/bases, the army that they built can withstand so many engagements (trade VERY efficiently) due to the overwhelming firepower that such turtling is viable. In SC2, the mech army just does not have the firepower do so. People are blinded if they think they do. Everything in the P arsenal takes too long to kill and unless these units gets funneled in a choke or attack into your expensive defensive PF/tank line, taking head on a 200/200 P deathball army literally does not work. The biggest problem is that the hellion buffer isn't enough to absorb damage from zealots, colossus, storms w/e so effectively tanks get one or two shots off and they get evaporated.
The final nail in the coffin is that say a T player has taken a 4th and stretched out thin to defend all the possible attack paths with PFs/turrets and what not (very very expensive). By this time, the P will be on 6 bases or have taken half the map because with mech units there isn't many units that could take out buildings unlike MMM. Once cannon count goes up per base, blink stalkers are out with obs harassing/mapcontrol becomes very with hellions and banshees the only two effective units in doing those in a mech army. The P has all the tech setup + mineral/gas bank by the time so that they can literally just throw anything at you. Zealot/archons, mass zealots/cols to suddenly carriers etc
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight. In BW, you can fight the P head on even on a wide battle field. You do that in SC2 and your army will get murdered. Because you dont have the firepower nor the "muscle", turtling/dragging out the game longer actually makes mech at such a big disadvantage. I mean the whole point of going mech is to build up your composition strong enough to just roll through everything. But it just cant. Thats why timings like the 4Fact build is viable (small timing window) but a straight up mech game just does not work in this game.
To me, SC2 TvT bio vs mech feels alot like BW TvP which is kind of strange but results in a very entertaining matchup from start to finish.
Id had my fair share of wins with mech but deep inside me tells me that alot of those wins are attributed to the P players not knowing how to deal with it (just pure wins from roasting 70+ probes). Often against players that are smart, or know how to deal with mech, I have to say that it is just not viable and MORE unforgiving than going bio.
I agree that its good to have one or two mech builds up your sleeve, but this will never become standard unless something is done to fix the main issue. Not enough "terrible, terrible damage".
On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote: The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight
I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank
Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game.
Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game.
On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote: The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight
I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank
Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game.
Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game.
It sounds good on paper, but in an actual game heck even in unit tester does it have a hard time against many P compositions. Try it for yourself.
WE HAVE TRIED IT FOR OURSELVES. We have tried it for as long as this thread has been going on, and as long as the 35 page other mech thread had been going on, and many of us had been doing it before that. STOP assuming we're just theorycrafting here.
On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote: The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight
I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank
Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game.
Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game.
It sounds good on paper, but in an actual game heck even in unit tester does it have a hard time against many P compositions. Try it for yourself.
Seriously? Have you even played Starcraft 2 before?
200/200 mech army with ghosts, ravens, and maybe some vikings if going against colossus is hands down the best 200/200 army in the game. Maybe if you're A+moving both armies into each other, sure, it doesn't hold up well. But siege, EMPs, PDDs.
On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote: The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight
I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank
Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game.
Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game.
It sounds good on paper, but in an actual game heck even in unit tester does it have a hard time against many P compositions. Try it for yourself.
Seriously? Have you even played Starcraft 2 before?
200/200 mech army with ghosts, ravens, and maybe some vikings if going against colossus is hands down the best 200/200 army in the game. Maybe if you're A+moving both armies into each other, sure, it doesn't hold up well. But siege, EMPs, PDDs.
The trolls are out in force in this thread.
Ive already stated that Ive been playing the game since its been out. Ive been in the GM league at SEA for the past 5 seasons now. Maybe thats equal to a mid/high masters on NA I dont know. Not only that but ive been Meching all three matchups for more than 9 months. Just like everyone, I want it too work and have tried everything. Literally everything and its just my conclusion that outside of timings, its not viable.
Now the question is have you even played SC2 before? If what ever you said is true, why dont we see mech as a standard along side Bio in TvP? Not explored enough? Sorry but its been explored to death. Ok lets go one step further and look at the pro scene. They analyse, practise and hone builds yet we've yet to see mech being anywhere near being standard amongst them other than timing attacks.
Having success with mech in TvP is gimmicky at best.
Also that composition you have stated does work in TvZ and TvT (minus ghosts) but its in this particular matchup that it just doesn't work.
@Dawn883 : sorry but i've answered this question like every 3 pages on the thread so i'll let you search a bit, but basically,turrets, PF, sensor towers, air + hellion for defense
@Gyro in this game i failed a lots, forgot 2Nd fact for a while so no hellions, forgot blue flame, forgot to prod ghosts and tanks,etc . . . so imo with the build i use it's ok to hold it as long as you're focued and on top on your macro
@Mongolbonjwa : because it was not me but Nys, my team mate.You watched too late ^^
@FreshVegetables : OH REALLY? OMG, you must be a genius to discover that i'm bm . . . oh wait I'll not even answer to the viability question
@Hider : in term of damage, banshees are better than BC without uppgrades. As long as you uppgrade these,BC become better and better,and they're not as vulnerable as banshee to storms,archons,phoenix,etc. Also lategame,when the protoss can have like 5 robo, it's easy for him to get mass obs,compared to midgame
@YyapSsap : watch my late game replays,and try to find any lategame situation where the protoss is at least able to be cost effective with his own end game army. Just cost effective, not even killing my whole army
Some general answers : I arleady told why i think mech is underused. Bio is standard, pro love standards play,and when they try mech,it's with a bio mindset so it fails. I actually never seen a pro trying to do a play similar to mine Also, for people saying "not viable at high lvl", i wanna remember you something : i'm high master. I'll probably be GM next season if i focus a bit. This build works for me, even if i often fight people who knows me and my build. By extension, this mean than this build can work for any people below me, which is basically 99,997% of the people in the ladder. I don't care about pro having success with my builds (and when it comes to facing pro, i don't have any problem), i care about all these people who are struggling with TvP and who want a new way to play it that will reward them for playing well
Also, i guess i'll stop arguing with "omg this build is not viable" if they dont come with solid arguments. Because these people seems to think a viable build which isn't bio must have (based on most popular complain) -a FE opening safe versus every allin allowing you to harass and transition easily in midgame -Ability to blindly crush anything in the midgame -6 bases at 15 minutes with a perfect defense, the protoss player shouldn't even be able to come near your base! -A lategame army that'll win anything without scouting or adapting ....Oh wait, is bio viable from there?
I partly agree with Yyapssap : most of the protoss who loose to terran mech is just because they don't know how to react, especially because you don't see a lot of terran playing mech, and terran players who do mech don't do it well all the time. That's the strengh of a Terran mech player : surprise effect and opponent ot knowing how to react. That's why I go on playing mech, + all other advantages I find with that style that have already been discussed.
There is no point in discussing that a style is better than another, just make your own experience, play each races and you'll see that with good macro/micro/harrass/timings, everything is possible in sc2
Lyyna and all T turtling on mass mech : try mass nukes to kill your opponent, nukes are good because you just send 1 unit to do mass damage, you can defend with your big mech ball sieged at home
We are streaming on Dailymotion since it's our TV platform, like some other teams (Mill, EC and some others). Thanks for watching and see you there and on our irc, english tak is supported aswell, don't worry.
On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote: Sorry to party poop, but I just want to express my thoughts on meching something its been explored to deaths contrary to popular beliefs by many.
Meching in TvP is very very difficult and I just cant see any advantages over standard bio play outside of timings (like banshee/thor, 4/3 fact timing with marines/hellions/tanks etc). Ive been doing mech/skyterran w/e that is not BIO for well over a year now in SEA GM league. What I get from mech is that P players who haven't dealth with mech will often die horribly but the most important thing is that it doesn't matter what mech composition you have in these scenarios.
The P players who aren't firmiliar with mech won't aggressively expand since you just cant go "kill' with an mech army especially if its tank based (as a core), building no cannons to fend off hellion harass (i mean like 5 per base in the late game and these are very good), not simcity-ing for hellion runbys, not exploiting immobility by hitting a bunch of places at once, will attack into a defensive tank line with PFs, not abusing the fact that carrier tech switch + HTs and stalkers will be quite unstoppable and the list goes on. They play like against BIO and lose but with a little bit of experience against mech, they will crush or give the opponent a very rough time.
Turtling up to 3 bases is not so difficult but smart Ps can be on 4 or 5 bases by this time (and more later). Unlike BW where the T is out numbered in expansions/bases, the army that they built can withstand so many engagements (trade VERY efficiently) due to the overwhelming firepower that such turtling is viable. In SC2, the mech army just does not have the firepower do so. People are blinded if they think they do. Everything in the P arsenal takes too long to kill and unless these units gets funneled in a choke or attack into your expensive defensive PF/tank line, taking head on a 200/200 P deathball army literally does not work. The biggest problem is that the hellion buffer isn't enough to absorb damage from zealots, colossus, storms w/e so effectively tanks get one or two shots off and they get evaporated.
The final nail in the coffin is that say a T player has taken a 4th and stretched out thin to defend all the possible attack paths with PFs/turrets and what not (very very expensive). By this time, the P will be on 6 bases or have taken half the map because with mech units there isn't many units that could take out buildings unlike MMM. Once cannon count goes up per base, blink stalkers are out with obs harassing/mapcontrol becomes very with hellions and banshees the only two effective units in doing those in a mech army. The P has all the tech setup + mineral/gas bank by the time so that they can literally just throw anything at you. Zealot/archons, mass zealots/cols to suddenly carriers etc
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight. In BW, you can fight the P head on even on a wide battle field. You do that in SC2 and your army will get murdered. Because you dont have the firepower nor the "muscle", turtling/dragging out the game longer actually makes mech at such a big disadvantage. I mean the whole point of going mech is to build up your composition strong enough to just roll through everything. But it just cant. Thats why timings like the 4Fact build is viable (small timing window) but a straight up mech game just does not work in this game.
To me, SC2 TvT bio vs mech feels alot like BW TvP which is kind of strange but results in a very entertaining matchup from start to finish.
Id had my fair share of wins with mech but deep inside me tells me that alot of those wins are attributed to the P players not knowing how to deal with it (just pure wins from roasting 70+ probes). Often against players that are smart, or know how to deal with mech, I have to say that it is just not viable and MORE unforgiving than going bio.
I agree that its good to have one or two mech builds up your sleeve, but this will never become standard unless something is done to fix the main issue. Not enough "terrible, terrible damage".
I used to think like that, but then I took the time to watch some of the replays, and it actually turned out that mech could be extremely cost efficient. Does it really matter how big a bank the toss have if they cant even kill half your army? And slowly and steadily your main army gets bigger and bigger (as you cut scvs). You get a few planeataries to defend agaisnt counterattacks, and then you move out and kill the toss.
So unless you think that its impossible to be that cost efficient as Lyyna prooves in those replays, or that it should actually be impossible for the terran to secure 4 bases/get that 200 mech deathball, then the logic in your post fails.
On April 03 2012 16:50 Lyyna wrote: @Dawn883 : sorry but i've answered this question like every 3 pages on the thread so i'll let you search a bit, but basically,turrets, PF, sensor towers, air + hellion for defense
@Gyro in this game i failed a lots, forgot 2Nd fact for a while so no hellions, forgot blue flame, forgot to prod ghosts and tanks,etc . . . so imo with the build i use it's ok to hold it as long as you're focued and on top on your macro
@Mongolbonjwa : because it was not me but Nys, my team mate.You watched too late ^^
@FreshVegetables : OH REALLY? OMG, you must be a genius to discover that i'm bm . . . oh wait I'll not even answer to the viability question
@Hider : in term of damage, banshees are better than BC without uppgrades. As long as you uppgrade these,BC become better and better,and they're not as vulnerable as banshee to storms,archons,phoenix,etc. Also lategame,when the protoss can have like 5 robo, it's easy for him to get mass obs,compared to midgame
@YyapSsap : watch my late game replays,and try to find any lategame situation where the protoss is at least able to be cost effective with his own end game army. Just cost effective, not even killing my whole army
Some general answers : I arleady told why i think mech is underused. Bio is standard, pro love standards play,and when they try mech,it's with a bio mindset so it fails. I actually never seen a pro trying to do a play similar to mine Also, for people saying "not viable at high lvl", i wanna remember you something : i'm high master. I'll probably be GM next season if i focus a bit. This build works for me, even if i often fight people who knows me and my build. By extension, this mean than this build can work for any people below me, which is basically 99,997% of the people in the ladder. I don't care about pro having success with my builds (and when it comes to facing pro, i don't have any problem), i care about all these people who are struggling with TvP and who want a new way to play it that will reward them for playing well
Also, i guess i'll stop arguing with "omg this build is not viable" if they dont come with solid arguments. Because these people seems to think a viable build which isn't bio must have (based on most popular complain) -a FE opening safe versus every allin allowing you to harass and transition easily in midgame -Ability to blindly crush anything in the midgame -6 bases at 15 minutes with a perfect defense, the protoss player shouldn't even be able to come near your base! -A lategame army that'll win anything without scouting or adapting ....Oh wait, is bio viable from there?
Well I did test BC's and banshees against stalkers unupgraded. Are you saying that BC's gain a bigger relative advantage from armor/weapon upgrades than banshees?
Still I dont think it ever will get close. Banshees seems to be somewhat even in cost efficiency against stalkers (though depending on how you valuate the gas difference). BC's (unupgraded) are just absolutely terrible.
Im not sure why its that relevant that banshees are bad against archons, as 1) Banshees have higher range and hence with some micro shouldn't be taken that much splash damage from them either through kiting or splitting them a bit. 2) EMP should kinda deal with archons.
And here is where I felt the real benefit (in a game). When I didn't have to yamato I actually could use more time focussing on getting some good emps. And I guess if one has the apm for it one could replace the needed yamato cannon actions with a bit of banshee micro.
I think storm is a complete non factor as well, as the toss should use all their HT energy feedbacking.
Regarding phoenixes I think its actually really difficult for the toss player to get the right amount to deal with banshees. What is the right amount of phoenox if they know I have 7 banshees? Maybe 5-6 phoenix? But aren't they going to be absolutely useless in a battle against thors/turrets and pdd? And what if he has miscalculated my banshee count. Then these phoenixes's are pretty much useless (perhaps they can pick up a few tanks for some seconds before they die).
While a lot of speed observers + phoenix's to some extent can deny banshee harass it just doesn't really seem like a hard counter. And you still get the same effect as with BC's. If your main army for some mysterious reason die (or almost get army traded) they can't just warp in a lot of cchargelots and rofl stomp you. Banshees seem a lot better to actually defend against gateway warp ins
People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
On April 03 2012 21:34 FoolieCoolie wrote: People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
Ask Jjakji if mech doesn't work against Protoss please.
On April 03 2012 21:34 FoolieCoolie wrote: People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
Ask Jjakji if mech doesn't work against Protoss please.
Afaik,It Marines,Thor,Banshee,Raven all in/timing attack not solid marco build.
I was wondering if It wouldnt be more interesting to emp battlecruisers than using yamamoto? I just feel so frustrated by the feedbacks on my BC's.... Im probably not properly positioned ?
On April 03 2012 21:34 FoolieCoolie wrote: People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
I have another theory. Bio play can't beat parting style pvt. Its literraly impossible when the toss gets good and intelligent enough. With bio against parting you can never attack cost efficiently. Meanwhile the toss (when it goes into late game and you both get spread on a lot of bases) can either through warp tech or through his main army attack your expansions. As a terran you can't really do anything against it, besides micro with 400 apm, but even with perfect micro you still can't win as he cant keep rebuilding his army again and again.
Its actually kinda a myth that bio is that mobile. In the late late game the toss army is more mobile through warp tech.
Can you win games with bio today? Sure. Can korean terrans win against other korean toss today? Sure. But when people learn to play the parting style to perfection you wont be able to win with bio.
@Loyd : I used to think that, but the fact i can still win with it even versus people i face a lot (ladder, training) or we know me and can prepare for my style ( clan war) show that its still ok versus a protoss that try to specifically counter it. Yeah, mass nukes is good. Super lategame i often abuse the harass power of nukes + raven to deny some bases
@Hider : I agree with some of that, the problem being that going banshees instead of BC leaves you weak versus air switch. Also the problem is that, for example, if you're a bit late on EMP, feedback and storm can ripe trough your banshees count. But yeah, can be good if you know that the toss isn't going air, the problem is that they requires a multitask and an active scouting that i personnally cant do. But in a faster player's hands, could be really powerful to mass banshees yeah
@Fooliecoolie : well, at least this work for me at high master/GM in EU, and this will probably work for all the people below me (so basically 99,97% of the people in ladder). Never said it's a build for pro level. Also, you should take care before saying stupid things, as some people in KOR GM are already heavily meching vs P, and even if their build are known, they can still crush a lot of toss.
@nOondn Yeah, a lot of people who havent played broodwar dont really understand that mech is actually just factory units. Goes back to bw TvP which was almost exclusively mech (with a few science vessels, maybe wraiths, dropship - 2% of the army). So they keep calling anything other them marine marauder mech. Just wrongly categorized, thats all...
On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote: @lyyna feel free to supply as with pro replays. Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count.
Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder
Really funny to. When you come with a mech build that seems viable, once people realize they cant really blame issue like mobility, firepower,etc, all their arguments become "Not viable at pro viable". Problem : I don't care about pros, this build works at my lvl and thats ok for me. Really funny are also these people who say "it'll not work in high level ladder", and once you say you're high master/GM, they say "ladder do not matters"
edit : and i guess bio is just rax units then? so with the way you're defining mech, bio can only be marines marauder and ghosts then.
On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote: @lyyna feel free to supply as with pro replays. Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count.
Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder
On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote: @lyyna feel free to supply as with pro replays. Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count.
Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder
Really funny to. When you come with a mech build that seems viable, once people realize they cant really blame issue like mobility, firepower,etc, all their arguments become "Not viable at pro viable". Problem : I don't care about pros, this build works at my lvl and thats ok for me. Really funny are also these people who say "it'll not work in high level ladder", and once you say you're high master/GM, they say "ladder do not matters"
edit : and i guess bio is just rax units then? so with the way you're defining mech, bio can only be marines marauder and ghosts then.
Why so upset? I did say in my first post that this is not a bad build for casual gamers. At pro level, it gets crushed tho. You say you dont care about pros, so there you have it. And being high masters, or even gm on Eu really doesnt mean anything. On Kor you have much better players, harder ladder therefore you can get a better judgment of a players skill level. But still, its the big tournaments that count.
"Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed."
You cant know that. Turtling terran may sound bad as hell, but it might be the future of tvp until hots comes out. Also with multitasking of top pro, banshee/hellion harass can be very effective throughout the game.
Maybe Lyyna will be remembered as a guy, who reinvented the whole tvp.
On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote: @lyyna feel free to supply as with pro replays. Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count.
Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder
Really funny to. When you come with a mech build that seems viable, once people realize they cant really blame issue like mobility, firepower,etc, all their arguments become "Not viable at pro viable". Problem : I don't care about pros, this build works at my lvl and thats ok for me. Really funny are also these people who say "it'll not work in high level ladder", and once you say you're high master/GM, they say "ladder do not matters"
edit : and i guess bio is just rax units then? so with the way you're defining mech, bio can only be marines marauder and ghosts then.
Why so upset? I did say in my first post that this is not a bad build for casual gamers. At pro level, it gets crushed tho. You say you dont care about pros, so there you have it. And being high masters, or even gm on Eu really doesnt mean anything. On Kor you have much better players, harder ladder therefore you can get a better judgment of a players skill level. But still, its the big tournaments that count.
Yet you have never argued specificacly why this doesn't work in korea. You just speak in general phrases.
On the other hand as I have argued bio isn't going to work long-termish in pvt.
Why is it that everyone seems to say that because Goody does not play mech anymore, they will not. Seriously? Is Goody some kind of mech God that makes no mistakes? He is really good in mech, but does it mean he decides whether or not you play mech?
So what if Goody stops meching? You try and explore the unexplored, stop relying on Goody
Just ignore these trolls lyyna. If they have nothing of value to contribute to the discussion other than 'herp derp I played bw' and 'thiz isnt viable, heres no good reasons why' just let them make asses out of themselves. You know they wont listen to reason anyway because theyre not here to discuss mech, theyre here to make themselves feel superior as if they know something we dont. Let us continue the discussion and the trolls will eventually go away.
To hiders point about BC vs Banshee: bcs are more supply effective which is useful in a maxed army. Their high health makes them less vulnerable to storm/feedback. Their armor upgrades make them better vs stalkers/carriers. Amatory lets them blow away carriers and void rays. Also they have the 'holy shit he's making bcs' factor.
On April 03 2012 22:57 crocodile wrote: Just ignore these trolls lyyna. If they have nothing of value to contribute to the discussion other than 'herp derp I played bw' and 'thiz isnt viable, heres no good reasons why' just let them make asses out of themselves. You know they wont listen to reason anyway because theyre not here to discuss mech, theyre here to make themselves feel superior as if they know something we dont. Let us continue the discussion and the trolls will eventually go away.
To hiders point about BC vs Banshee: bcs are more supply effective which is useful in a maxed army. Their high health makes them less vulnerable to storm/feedback. Their armor upgrades make them better vs stalkers/carriers. Amatory lets them blow away carriers and void rays. Also they have the 'holy shit he's making bcs' factor.
1) Again I dont really feel like storm is the issue here. Feedback should be highly prioritized over storm in most cases. 2) The advantage with using banshees is that we are constantly harassing (unless they have lots of phoenixes with some speed observers). This means that they will be constantly semilow on energy (as they will be cloacked a lot). So feedback wont be that big an issue. 3) When using heavy banshee play I assumed that we would "suicide" them against a carrier tech switch and tech to bcs instead. (not sure if you read all my posts). 4) When using pdd DPS is a much more important than health. 5) And even if we dont use PDD banshees are MUCH better against stalkers than BC's. 6) As I said I haven't tested this with upgrades, but I highly doubt that BC's become more cost efficient (gas-wise) against stalkers than banshees are against stalkers (even if both are 3-3). But maybe its even out a bit. When that is said I think we first will get 3-3 air like 40+ minutues into the game. I think it would be more relevant testing it with 1/1, 2/1,2/2 or 3/1 or something like that. When we have 3/3 of everything we are mostly going to win every time unless we mess up giganticly. 7) Your comment about food seems pretty relevant. 3 bcs = 24 suply = 900 gas. 9 banshees = 900 gas, 27 suply. It might be work testing how 3 bcs with 1/1 upgrads does against 15 stalkers (that probably are at least 2/2) and how 8 banshees (1/1) does against 15 stalkers.
If that happened to me I would try to play defensively and make a few rounds of tanks and hellions to rebuild the army's core, then add in some thors and more BCs. But having that critical tank count is a big deal. Dont be mistaken: If you lose your whole ground army you're in a bad position.
@Crocodile : If i dont answer to these trolls, they'll just start to say that i'm not trying to prove my facts,that i avoid questions,etc. And people seeing these posts will think the same.
@Gyro : basically, fall back in your bases, and try to get a reprod of hellions/tanks/BC. He need at least 2 waves of warp to attack again, and by that time, u'll have your first reprod wave, and if your BC survived the first fight,u'll have a critical number of these with the reprod(assuming really late game). Do not hesitate too, to you your fist rounds of hellions to harass his bases, so he has to 'split' his warp, it'll make him mad and can force stupid mistakes
For the banshee/BC thing, anyway, the 'final' point is that ,even if banshees would be deadly if used by a good multitasking player, possible hard transition to air ( building 5 stargates and chronoboost carriers lategame for example) is what makes BC better, and they scale better with uppgrades in term of dps too (but i'll try this idea of delaying BC and getting more banshees probably)
I feel like you're theorycrafting a bit here hider. You also need more star ports to mass banshees than BCs. And the big one here is that storm IS a problem. I guarantee you if you have a ton of banshees the protoss WILL storm them and you WILL lose them.
Another thing: you don't always have time to scout a carrier switch and suicide your banshees and transition. In a lot of cases, you will just die.
On April 03 2012 23:24 crocodile wrote: I feel like you're theorycrafting a bit here hider. You also need more star ports to mass banshees than BCs. And the big one here is that storm IS a problem. I guarantee you if you have a ton of banshees the protoss WILL storm them and you WILL lose them.
Another thing: you don't always have time to scout a carrier switch and suicide your banshees and transition. In a lot of cases, you will just die.
Well your response is theorycraft as well.
I disagree that this is a question of having time to scout a carrier tech switch. Its just a question of scouting actively enough. Sure going for the allround build is easier (as I have said previously), but I feel like there is more potentital in banshees.
I say you're theorycrafting because what you're saying does not sound like it's derived from game experience. What I am saying IS derived from game experience. And you haven't addressed my points. Are you saying that if the Protoss manages to hide his tech switch from you, you're content with just losing that way?
You have to accept that you CAN'T always scout a carrier switch, and thus you should be better prepared. Banshees do not have more potential either, because a few cannons at each base from the Toss will negate your banshee harass, and then you're just left with a good portion of your army that is not easy to replace because you don't have the production facilities, it is supply inefficient, fragile, and extremely vulnerable to storm and stalkers if you don't have PDD.
Dont get angry guys Crocodile, the banshee idea is still good, at least in the "early phase" of lategame, as they're better without uppgrades than BC, and having squads of banshees on the whole map can really scare the protoss
Oh I completely agree, I make heavy use of banshee play in most of the game, it's just that as you get to the late game you need to have a big, beefy army that can stand up to everything the Protoss throws at you.
Harassment becomes less important compared to supply efficiency. I mean unless they've got massive numbers of Zealots, I even have very few Hellions at this point (by the way to anyone who thinks BFH suck against Zealots, you have never experienced the satisfaction of watching 30 Chargelots melt to a squad of 20 Hellions in a choke point: it's brutal).
By the way, I have more replays of a slightly more aggressive, ghost-free TvP mech style that I've been having success with. I finally got back to my computer after spring break so I've had time to ladder again. I rely on a ~150 food BFH/Tank/Marine/Banshee timing push off of a Reactor expand while taking a 3rd. If I do enough damage, I keep pushing. If I don't, it's time to turtle like Lyyna! If anyone wants replays PM me.
On April 04 2012 00:40 cydial wrote: Goody doesn't even play mech anymore because of how bad it is at higher levels.
Thank you... for reading the entire thread... and making a completely relevant and never before made (and addressed) comment. You, sir, are truly a champion in this forum.
On April 04 2012 00:40 cydial wrote: Goody doesn't even play mech anymore because of how bad it is at higher levels.
My god. You're a fucking genius.
On March 25 2012 02:59 XquisiteWretch wrote: the king of mech "Goody" quit mech a long time ago, saying it is ineffective against protoss
On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote: i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can !
On April 03 2012 22:42 taitanik wrote: i still think theres a reason why goody played mech more than a year and switched to protoss/bio vs P, so i wont even try mech anyway
Goody does not play mech anymore
On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote: Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels?
And that's not to mention the various times we all addressed this point, as well as Lyyna answering that point in the fucking OP.
Banshees do more damage to colossus than vikings, why people make vikings against colossus when vikings are useless against everything else? Banshees shoot every ground unit so they are better option even though they cost more.
On April 04 2012 02:56 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Banshees do more damage to colossus than vikings, why people make vikings against colossus when vikings are useless against everything else? Banshees shoot every ground unit so they are better option even though they cost more.
Generally because vikings have so much longer range and auto-target colossi. With vikings you will have an easier time finding a good angle and also keep them out of harms way. With the banshee's low range its hard to really focus fire down colossi without puting them in a nasty spot.
On April 04 2012 02:56 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Banshees do more damage to colossus than vikings, why people make vikings against colossus when vikings are useless against everything else? Banshees shoot every ground unit so they are better option even though they cost more.
Generally because vikings have so much longer range and auto-target colossi. With vikings you will have an easier time finding a good angle and also keep them out of harms way. With the banshee's low range its hard to really focus fire down colossi without puting them in a nasty spot.
I lost to a Terran on ladder who played a similar all-mech style. He opened up with very delayed and unexpected blue flame hellion drops into my mineral line. They did terrible terrible damage and from that point on I was pretty much behind.
I was thoroughly confused by the play style over all.
Regarding the issue of getting both air and factory units, and how that is supposedly bad for upgrade synergy, I want to point to a game I played on my zerg alt account yesterday. I play a tvp style that has more in common with mass air, but I generally want to end up with 50/50 army supply of air and mech units and a lot of fortresses. But I get upgrades primarly for the air units, because they're the real damage dealers in terms of keeping the protoss small and humble and also what lets me get bases all over the map.
@ about 23 minutes you can see what happens when a 2-0-2 protoss army fights a badly positioned 0-0 mech army. It's a very, very good trade for me.
Basically my point is, people make a big deal out of the whole upgrade issue, but mech units are really good even at 0-0, especially against a composition that was made to deal with banshees, not tanks.
(and another replay, just because Entombed Valley seems to be good for mech: http://drop.sc/151101 )
On April 03 2012 21:34 FoolieCoolie wrote: People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
Sorry but it works at Korean GM, and it works at pro level (mech in general)
Out of 3 times it's been used in GSL/GSTL, it has won all 3 times. Each game is a bit different and it shows that one build working quite well. A different build, though still mech, was used in GSTL as well back when they had crevasse. The teching pattern was similar though the opener was different. He was in a good spot but didn't seem to watch his minimap carefully enough because he let MC's army go around his army without reacting fast enough (no time to siege up in place). MC got into his main and then he sieged up, and ofc that ended up messy.
The first build I mentioned was used again in HSC4, where MKP beat MC with it.
Out of all 5 times I've seen mech work at korean pro level, it's won 4 times and done very well all 5 times.
I tried this build and when I saw the Protoss pushing mid to late game with his army from my sensor towers, I launched a nuke in the pathway his army was headed for my tank line while the banshees killed every probe in his third. The nuke barely took out a few collisi but the defensive position force the gg.
Long games though, i normally just 2 rax into a 2 base all in vs toss cuz of the late game scares...but the guide was easy to follow to try at least once and was a fun mix up.
On April 04 2012 02:56 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Banshees do more damage to colossus than vikings, why people make vikings against colossus when vikings are useless against everything else? Banshees shoot every ground unit so they are better option even though they cost more.
Generally because vikings have so much longer range and auto-target colossi. With vikings you will have an easier time finding a good angle and also keep them out of harms way. With the banshee's low range its hard to really focus fire down colossi without puting them in a nasty spot.
Cheers Dan
Terrans should snipe always the observers
you could try, but he'll have several if you have cloaked banshees and the collosi will make it difficult for you to pick out the obsrver and snipe it.
but perhaps most importantly, if you don't make vikings toss will take air control and just kill your banshees with voids or phoenix
On April 04 2012 02:56 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Banshees do more damage to colossus than vikings, why people make vikings against colossus when vikings are useless against everything else? Banshees shoot every ground unit so they are better option even though they cost more.
Generally because vikings have so much longer range and auto-target colossi. With vikings you will have an easier time finding a good angle and also keep them out of harms way. With the banshee's low range its hard to really focus fire down colossi without puting them in a nasty spot.
Cheers Dan
Terrans should snipe always the observers
It's not that EZ I think, that's why I always add 3 or 4 vikings to snipe them because I'm not always able to see it through the deathball protoss.
On April 04 2012 02:56 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Banshees do more damage to colossus than vikings, why people make vikings against colossus when vikings are useless against everything else? Banshees shoot every ground unit so they are better option even though they cost more.
Generally because vikings have so much longer range and auto-target colossi. With vikings you will have an easier time finding a good angle and also keep them out of harms way. With the banshee's low range its hard to really focus fire down colossi without puting them in a nasty spot.
Cheers Dan
Terrans should snipe always the observers
It's not that EZ I think, that's why I always add 3 or 4 vikings to snipe them because I'm not always able to see it through the deathball protoss.
dont marines automatically shoot observer once scanned?
On April 04 2012 00:40 cydial wrote: Goody doesn't even play mech anymore because of how bad it is at higher levels.
User was temp banned for this post.
Lol....straight after my post
Why is it that everyone seems to say that because Goody does not play mech anymore, they will not. Seriously? Is Goody some kind of mech God that makes no mistakes? He is really good in mech, but does it mean he decides whether or not you play mech?
So what if Goody stops meching? You try and explore the unexplored, stop relying on Goody
Thanks Lyyna for this guide! I think along the lines, people got caught up on the '' Goody quit mech play because of X '' rather than seeing someone trying to play a less strandard style and making it work in it's own way. Mech is extremely fun to play and as long as you find it fun play it !
Once again... same old discussion, mech is easy to beat, you can still win with mech on ladder and even vs good players cuz non plays it, once you get figured out even a little bit ( Goody ) you have no chance of winning vs protoss, but no, keep going thor banshe vs tosses that are to dumb to make any ht, keep massing up air and say its a "style" win when they didn't scout it thus didn't had any 3-5 phoenix to crush it, iv seen people mech on ladder, i crushed the people that mech on ladder since i play a lot and thus face it enough to realized the "baselines" of reacting to certain styles of mech. Mech is not viable in a "close to perfect" scenario, mech is viable in a "avg joe vs avg joe" scenario, which, once again, is what you play , what you play, what everyone here plays. That doesn't mean that its good, if it get to popular it'l just result in pros learning how to play vs it and developing a good meta game = > everyone will be able to crush it, if it doesn't get popular it will take maybe 3 or 4 years til people have played enough to know how to counter mech. Thus making mech exactly the opposite of what you make it out to be, its not a "if you play perfect you can't loss" and " a strategy for the future" but rather a "if he play perfect he can't loss" and " a strategy that might work now but won't ever work in the future" If you believe otherwise, fine, hell if you want to prove me so you can pm me, i would love to play vs you and show you that in a long series mech in both theory and practice is inferior to bio. The only good damn reason this tactic receives all the undeserved attention is cuz Artosis, a protoss player, a caster says that in his little universe is better than bio and cuz goody killed people with it ( still having a low win ratio pvt ) cuz non knew how to counter it, and even he said its to bad after the immortal and wp buff.
On April 04 2012 14:13 Aterons_toss wrote: Once again... same old discussion, mech is easy to beat, you can still win with mech on ladder and even vs good players cuz non plays it, once you get figured out even a little bit ( Goody ) you have no chance of winning vs protoss, but no, keep going thor banshe vs tosses that are to dumb to make any ht, keep massing up air and say its a "style" win when they didn't scout it thus didn't had any 3-5 phoenix to crush it, iv seen people mech on ladder, i crushed the people that mech on ladder since i play a lot and thus face it enough to realized the "baselines" of reacting to certain styles of mech. Mech is not viable in a "close to perfect" scenario, mech is viable in a "avg joe vs avg joe" scenario, which, once again, is what you play , what you play, what everyone here plays. That doesn't mean that its good, if it get to popular it'l just result in pros learning how to play vs it and developing a good meta game = > everyone will be able to crush it, if it doesn't get popular it will take maybe 3 or 4 years til people have played enough to know how to counter mech. Thus making mech exactly the opposite of what you make it out to be, its not a "if you play perfect you can't loss" and " a strategy for the future" but rather a "if he play perfect he can't loss" and " a strategy that might work now but won't ever work in the future" If you believe otherwise, fine, hell if you want to prove me so you can pm me, i would love to play vs you and show you that in a long series mech in both theory and practice is inferior to bio. The only good damn reason this tactic receives all the undeserved attention is cuz Artosis, a protoss player, a caster says that in his little universe is better than bio and cuz goody killed people with it ( still having a low win ratio pvt ) cuz non knew how to counter it, and even he said its to bad after the immortal and wp buff.
I was going to do a big answer to your post, explaining why i think you're wrong, the fact me and my partners/people i do often meet in ladder are basically agreeing on the fact it's a really hard to counter play if well executed, the fact that you seems to say you're the only smart toss able to fight mech properly, etc.
But after 10 minutes of writing , i realized that i already said that again and again and again. I also realized your post is just a big theory on metagame and learning to counter the start, but do not contain anything from the game : you dont talk about any counter strat,etc . I also realized you didnt even read the whole guide. So basically, i'll suggest you to read the whole guide, read the thread as i answer to stuff like yours every 5 pages, and also to realize that you aren't the only super-smart-guy able to counter mech properly
On April 04 2012 14:13 Aterons_toss wrote: Once again... same old discussion, mech is easy to beat, you can still win with mech on ladder and even vs good players cuz non plays it, once you get figured out even a little bit ( Goody ) you have no chance of winning vs protoss, but no, keep going thor banshe vs tosses that are to dumb to make any ht, keep massing up air and say its a "style" win when they didn't scout it thus didn't had any 3-5 phoenix to crush it, iv seen people mech on ladder, i crushed the people that mech on ladder since i play a lot and thus face it enough to realized the "baselines" of reacting to certain styles of mech. Mech is not viable in a "close to perfect" scenario, mech is viable in a "avg joe vs avg joe" scenario, which, once again, is what you play , what you play, what everyone here plays. That doesn't mean that its good, if it get to popular it'l just result in pros learning how to play vs it and developing a good meta game = > everyone will be able to crush it, if it doesn't get popular it will take maybe 3 or 4 years til people have played enough to know how to counter mech. Thus making mech exactly the opposite of what you make it out to be, its not a "if you play perfect you can't loss" and " a strategy for the future" but rather a "if he play perfect he can't loss" and " a strategy that might work now but won't ever work in the future" If you believe otherwise, fine, hell if you want to prove me so you can pm me, i would love to play vs you and show you that in a long series mech in both theory and practice is inferior to bio. The only good damn reason this tactic receives all the undeserved attention is cuz Artosis, a protoss player, a caster says that in his little universe is better than bio and cuz goody killed people with it ( still having a low win ratio pvt ) cuz non knew how to counter it, and even he said its to bad after the immortal and wp buff.
I was going to do a big answer to your post, explaining why i think you're wrong, the fact me and my partners/people i do often meet in ladder are basically agreeing on the fact it's a really hard to counter play if well executed, the fact that you seems to say you're the only smart toss able to fight mech properly, etc.
But after 10 minutes of writing , i realized that i already said that again and again and again. I also realized your post is just a big theory on metagame and learning to counter the start, but do not contain anything from the game : you dont talk about any counter strat,etc . I also realized you didnt even read the whole guide. So basically, i'll suggest you to read the whole guide, read the thread as i answer to stuff like yours every 5 pages, and also to realize that you aren't the only super-smart-guy able to counter mech properly
I didn't say i am the only one able to counter it, i said that replays vs mid master toss who were taken by surprise is no proof that this works, i also didn't say anything about "learning how to counter the start" which makes me think you are talking out of your arse and didn't understood what i said. What i said is: - No pro player goes mech in pvt - No pro player says mech in pvt is good - No pro player has ever had a huge win ratio with mech and the few pro games where the T's tried to mech ended horribly - The above shows that "meching in pvt is good" AND "meching in pvt is unbeatable if you play it right, but its hard" are both wrong as fuck If the above weren't enough to prove this to you, however, i also said:
- You only have replays vs non pro players (at least from what i saw, since you formatted them in the way you did, i can't really "explore" all the replays, but the 2 i saw were vs avg joe ) - You have no "specialist" option to back up mech being good in pvt except for goody, which gave up doing it and admitted its to shit to work and Artosis who is a caster and a mid/high master protoss player on the korean server, or at least those are the only 2 "prominent" community members that vouched for the viability of mech in pvt - From personal experience ( aka- from my ladder joe vs ladder joe pov- much like your replays,and the opponents you played against ) it seems to me that mech is weak and most people face to it since they don't play that much and never saw it before
I might be able to bring a post to "out theory craft" you, but as long as your only argument in favor of mech is " i made this theory crafting guide" and " here are some random replay packs where i mech vs P" its not worth the time, hence you couldn't bring a solid argument to counter any point in my post and instead went for the 10 year old kid rout of " I wanted to write an answer... but fuck you, you are not worth my time simpleton".
So yeah, if you want to try to mech, good for you. If you want to convince others to mech, and you idd manage to, thats sad cuz you are simply pushing them to do an inferior strategy which will be harder to play the more that people play it since the only problem anyone could face atm is them not having experience vs meching plays. But w.e, i won't keep arguing on the subject as it will obviously bring us nowhere.
Once again, I would like to say that Goody does still use mech >.< I haven't chedked all his games, but in the smaller tournaments (like cups, though with still notable players like TSL Hyun or such, so still high leveled), Goody has used Mech... even in the semi-finals or finals or up there. He might not use it all the time, but he still uses it.
I might be able to bring a post to "out theory craft" you, but as long as your only argument in favor of mech is " i made this theory crafting guide" and " here are some random replay packs where i mech vs P" its not worth the time, hence you couldn't bring a solid argument to counter any point in my post and instead went for the 10 year old kid rout of " I wanted to write an answer... but fuck you, you are not worth my time simpleton". [/QUOTE]
Theory crafting guide ? Oh yeah, you're so smart, you realized that this guide is only pure theorycraft and that i never play it in real situation and . . oh wait.
No, seriously guy, you don't give any gameplay element in your 'argumentation', and in fact you admit all you could do is theorycrafting, the only problem being i NEVER do any theorycraft : everything i say has been tested in real conditions, and is not random things said online.
Anyway, now i'll ignore that kind of post. I answered to all these stuff you're saying like 15 times ONLY in this thread, and even more in others thread. You want to discuss the viability ? then create a new thread and theorycraft there for hours about why mech isnt viable. At the same time i'll just continue to roll on every protoss i meet
Theory crafting guide ? Oh yeah, you're so smart, you realized that this guide is only pure theorycraft and that i never play it in real situation and . . oh wait.
No, seriously guy, you don't give any gameplay element in your 'argumentation', and in fact you admit all you could do is theorycrafting, the only problem being i NEVER do any theorycraft : everything i say has been tested in real conditions, and is not random things said online.
Anyway, now i'll ignore that kind of post. I answered to all these stuff you're saying like 15 times ONLY in this thread, and even more in others thread. You want to discuss the viability ? then create a new thread and theorycraft there for hours about why mech isnt viable. At the same time i'll just continue to roll on every protoss i meet
Lynna im with you on mech. I read the guide 3 days ago, started meching and... Im 12-3 vs masters (550-850 point radius). If some1 could tell me how to upload reps i could try to help out this thread. Ow yeah, before i forget, people keep mentioning toss on 1 gazmillion bases being able to resupply with the perfect counter constantly. If thats possible you are doing it wrong. So far ive had only 1 game in wich i had less bases than the toss. And only 1 game in wich i lost lategame: i didnt siege my tanks in an engagement and he got into my production just b4 my bc's were done.
Ow yeah, people saying: i want to see you (lynna or any other good mecher) beat top level pros should realise this. I can NOT beat a pro with bio because im not on that level. Does that make bio not viable? No, it means that the level at wich i execute my builds is not up to par with theirs. You should consider: does mech work on MY level vs tosses on MY level instead of: does mech at my level beat people way above my level.
Example: a gold leaguer going bio wil most likely not beat a master toss. Not because of the build but because of execution and understanding.
Theory crafting guide ? Oh yeah, you're so smart, you realized that this guide is only pure theorycraft and that i never play it in real situation and . . oh wait.
No, seriously guy, you don't give any gameplay element in your 'argumentation', and in fact you admit all you could do is theorycrafting, the only problem being i NEVER do any theorycraft : everything i say has been tested in real conditions, and is not random things said online.
Anyway, now i'll ignore that kind of post. I answered to all these stuff you're saying like 15 times ONLY in this thread, and even more in others thread. You want to discuss the viability ? then create a new thread and theorycraft there for hours about why mech isnt viable. At the same time i'll just continue to roll on every protoss i meet
i want to see you roll on Mana or Feast.
It's also nice to compare Lyyna, who's topmaster with some of the best foreigner protoss. Your argument is such biased and full of hate. I want to see any Topmaster roll over Mana and Feast with MMMVG plz, send me a replay. Haters gonna hate...
I might be able to bring a post to "out theory craft" you, but as long as your only argument in favor of mech is " i made this theory crafting guide" and " here are some random replay packs where i mech vs P" its not worth the time, hence you couldn't bring a solid argument to counter any point in my post and instead went for the 10 year old kid rout of " I wanted to write an answer... but fuck you, you are not worth my time simpleton".
Theory crafting guide ? Oh yeah, you're so smart, you realized that this guide is only pure theorycraft and that i never play it in real situation and . . oh wait.
No, seriously guy, you don't give any gameplay element in your 'argumentation', and in fact you admit all you could do is theorycrafting, the only problem being i NEVER do any theorycraft : everything i say has been tested in real conditions, and is not random things said online.
Anyway, now i'll ignore that kind of post. I answered to all these stuff you're saying like 15 times ONLY in this thread, and even more in others thread. You want to discuss the viability ? then create a new thread and theorycraft there for hours about why mech isnt viable. At the same time i'll just continue to roll on every protoss i meet
Until you you prove that mech can beat top protosses many times over the course of 1 month or so ( time for meta game to evolve ) with no patch changes in said period, yes, saying " mech is better than bio" and "is impossible to losse playing mech perfectly " is theorycrafting. Proof = games, a lot of them vs a lot of good players Theory = theorycrafting to prove what those whole lot of games would prove otherwise since you don't have a whole lot of games vs a whole lot of good players Do i need to start explaining terms to you or would you like the term "proof that a build is good" to be any kind of replay, cuz i have some games of a gold friend of mine and im going to argue that cannon phoenix might be a good way to get 100% winratio vs zerg based on them.
Inferior strategy ? That gives you the most dmg per sec army + the biggest army in the game because you will cut like 50scvs in late game because you need only gas and not minerals for your mech. Also gives you the ability to pick a fight where you want. Which other army in the game gives you that ?
Bringing arguments like "there are no pros doing it well guess what PRO's play for money not for who has the better strategy. If they did SK.2BASE would have never won anything.They play with what works in todays meta because nobody has the balls to try something because it's better to play standard and know how your opponent is gonna respond. Only the greatest teams and players try new strats when everything is on the line. Time needs to pass so everything is ready to go and you are sure at your build and strategy to counter any transition (a.k.a SlayerS with their hellion revolution). Do you know how much time it takes to do that ? I bet it's alot so you think players will sack their practice to perfect something that might never work insted of practicing and perfecting the standard that everyone does ?
For example Genius vs DRG the game were Genius tried double stargates and lost you will never know maybe if he 7gated he could have won that game but now everyone and their brother open stargate vs Z. Before that game stargate openings were falling of the scene because of mutas and roach timings which required more ground units. Check what is happening now people played more tweaked it got their timings right and those mutas and roach timings are done because of how much pressure you can put with stargate units.
Another example is when people said warp prism is not viable and toss has no harass units. Then Liquid'Hero comes with his magic prism and just dominates zergs also White-Ra too with amazing harass and zeal warping. Another example is I remember even on SOTG they said sentry drop opening is not viable it's expensive bla-bla then again people like Sase and Hero prove them wrong.
So unless you tested everything with perfect play by both sides don't tell me mech is not viable. Goody with crap mechanics won tournaments and lots of games by doing only mech. His opponents even knew he is gonna mech and still won just by decision making alone proves the point that mech is indeed the better strategy for long term. I don't know if he quited playing it now or not but if he did I think its more of his mechanics not beeing able to deal with P than mech beeing bad.
I have tested this strategy now a couple of times on Cloud Kingdom (because it's hard as hell to play standard bio there). Failed each time. Toss outexpands me like hell and gets high templar. Feedback kills ravens and heavily damages banshes, BC and thors, storm does the rest. 3 cannons in each mineral line, because he can afford to slow his unit production because I cannot attack in any meaningful time anyways. So I sit there on 4 bases until I die. I will try it a few times, but I'm not that hopeful.
Besides your thor defense has a glaring weakness... if protoss is clever he produces a warp prism and parks it over his army. The long range air attack will drain all thor DPS and the defense just dies.
On April 04 2012 20:23 Thrombozyt wrote: I have tested this strategy now a couple of times on Cloud Kingdom (because it's hard as hell to play standard bio there). Failed each time. Toss outexpands me like hell and gets high templar. Feedback kills ravens and heavily damages banshes, BC and thors, storm does the rest. 3 cannons in each mineral line, because he can afford to slow his unit production because I cannot attack in any meaningful time anyways. So I sit there on 4 bases until I die. I will try it a few times, but I'm not that hopeful.
Besides your thor defense has a glaring weakness... if protoss is clever he produces a warp prism and parks it over his army. The long range air attack will drain all thor DPS and the defense just dies.
If the protoss can feedback you, it means you fucked up your engagement. With sensor towers, tanks, and banshees, you have all you need to roll on high templar. And you can yamato - 350mm canon - a few scv / marines before the engagements or even EMP yourself if you're afraid of feedback.
I hate when people just throw down "hey you know there is a counter so it's not viable, just feedback and lol at your deathball". We can say the same for any strategy. Banshee harass ? "just get fast obs with stalkers and lol". Bioball ? "Just get colossus or storm".
What makes a good strategy is not the fact there is no counter to it. A good strategy is something that can win if well executed with fast reaction time & decision making. If you screw your few games, it doesn't necessarily mean the build is bad. In this case it means your played poorly, and another style of play might fit you more.
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote: Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
it's not stupid, it's how you play against mech in as any race. and it works.
I would say that playing bio against Protoss is stupid as fuck because the protoss hardcounter you with storm and collossi. Oh wait ?!
You're messing it here guys, let's stick to the point and please, ffs, avoid your dumb argumentations about the viability, we're not there to talk about it, we're here to improve to guide and discuss about possible variations.
For those of you talking about abusing mech immobility:
Here is a game I just played with a Protoss trying to abuse my immobility using Blink Stalkers and Colossi on two bases. I didn't even do a great job defending, but I think you get the idea.
Granted, this wasn't late game, but if it were late game I would have had a stronger defensive position in the middle of the map that he couldn't abuse. http://drop.sc/153584
On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote: Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
it's not stupid, it's how you play against mech in as any race. and it works.
I agree. I think you misunderstood what I said. I told the skeptical guy that he is theory crafting whereas Lyyna's style just works.
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote: I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Finally someone smart. Yes we can theorycraft to imagine what a perfect reaction to the perfect execution of this build could be, and this can be really interesting, we all agree on this point.
But the facts are here : for the moment, and until a protoss figures solid way to counter it, this style really destroy almost all protoss even at master levels. It will take time for them to train against it, get used to recognize the style with the scouting informations they'll have, and react almost perfectly at the best timings possible. Until then, I find it pretty dumb that people keep throwing blind "it's not viable" without even seeing the success of all of us & examining the replays. At this time, Protoss players don't have solid standard answers to it so it's viable.
On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote: I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Finally someone smart. Yes we can theorycraft to imagine what a perfect reaction to the perfect execution of this build could be, and this can be really interesting, we all agree on this point.
But the facts are here : for the moment, and until a protoss figures solid way to counter it, this style really destroy almost all protoss even at master levels. It will take time for them to train against it, get used to recognize the style with the scouting informations they'll have, and react almost perfectly at the best timings possible. Until then, I find it pretty dumb that people keep throwing blind "it's not viable" without even seeing the success of all of us & examining the replays. At this time, Protoss players don't have solid standard answers to it so it's viable.
Yeh I completely agree. I think most of the ppl who say mech is not viable hasn't actually watched the replays, because then they would quickly realize how strong mech can be in a straight up fight. I think a lot of people who has tested mech previosuly (including my self) would just go hellion/tank heavy, which obv. just dies to a lot of things, and then we would become to aggressive to quickly and die to chargelots warpins (after a battle).
Regarding theorycrafting on what protoss player should do. IMO they need to be a ton better to coordinate their harass play. In a lot of Lyynas replays the toss just stood still and did nothing him self (he would even suicide probes him self which is just stupid). In other replays the toss would realize that he was suppoed to abuse the lack of mobility. But he would just be way to slow and way to inefficient when harassing. But as you say, this is a thing protoss players need to learn. Right now they do not how a lot of experience on dealing with mech.
@Hider : The fact is that even when the protoss is good enough to go into multi-harass thing, its still really hard for him. He has to avoid sensor towers and turrets rings, which is already hard. And usually when he blinks up or use a prism in a base protected by the sensor , a good number of hellions and air will already be on the way
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything.
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything.
I think its a good idea to theorycraft based on actual games. Like in a specific game one could try to theorycraft what would happen if the toss did X or Y, and then one could go on to analyze the best response from the mech player.
Lol toss may have the advantage of mobility but few will know how to abuse it. Who do you think they are? Terrans? Up until like masters the toss is gonna be like wait... I cant just storm and a-move? Uh... GG
yesterday, a protoss used his mothership to recall in my base. ( I had a turret ring but he still manage to recall)
Do you think its a good idea to keep a ghost(EMP) in my base if I see a mothership on the field.
Yeah sure why not? Granted, you are almost never going to see that...
almost never going to see that ? Do you remember the arbiter tactic in bw? If you mech a lot of protoss will try to recall in your base. I just don't know if keeping a ghost in my base is the best solution.
@Gyro, Basically if the protoss try to abuse mass recall, just get 1/2 sensor towers in your "edge bases" with 1 ghost for each
About theorycrating : Personally i'm really good at theorycrafting, and this is why i'm able to do build like this. The problem is that a lot of people will not be able to do it well, and will still try to theorycraft stuff even when its obvious they're doing it wrong. So theorycrafting is ok as long as you do it well . . .
yesterday, a protoss used his mothership to recall in my base. ( I had a turret ring but he still manage to recall)
Do you think its a good idea to keep a ghost(EMP) in my base if I see a mothership on the field.
Yeah sure why not? Granted, you are almost never going to see that...
almost never going to see that ? Do you remember the arbiter tactic in bw? If you mech a lot of protoss will try to recall in your base. I just don't know if keeping a ghost in my base is the best solution.
Well most likely you would need 2-3 ghosts late game, as he you will be spread out over alot of expansions. But I still think its fine, as your army still is much stronger in a straight up fight.
An alternative is to invest in like 15 turrets instead of just 2-5.
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything.
I think its a good idea to theorycraft based on actual games. Like in a specific game one could try to theorycraft what would happen if the toss did X or Y, and then one could go on to analyze the best response from the mech player.
Oh if it's about a specific game, then yes of course! :D but yea like you say so many people are just like "blink stalkers beat this" without checking the replay or referring specifically =/
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation.
the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you.
I come from the end of my temp ban with replays! So many mech tvp replays. All ghost-less and in master league.
http://drop.sc/155312 This was my favorite one: this game showcases my mech army winning in multiple maxed army situations. I faced mass Colossus, Archons, Chargelots, Warp Prism harass, Mothership, basically everything Protosses can try to do to beat mech just failed against me here.
http://drop.sc/155313 Here is me defending an immortal allin off one base while doing hellion drop harass.
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation.
the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you.
*facepalm*
Well, im getting banshees out of ONE starport when gas allows. How can it "severely reduces" my tank count? Also, my personal style do not include heavy banshee harass. They're more a psychological tool that forces the toss to take care of these all game long and make him feel unsafe. Wonder how he'll be ahead considering that except in early game my banshees will be at home, and he does still have to build cannons and stuff like that to not be punished. Phenix versus any competent (people here seems to love that word) mech terran will get shredded by thors and ghosts.
For that statement . .. well, in fact, i'll do the answer that basically apply about your whole post : Watch replays and read the guide. One of the biggest goal of this strategy is to be able to handle these "deadly" air switch. Basically like most people it looks like you stopped reading in the middle of the midgame section
edit : do someone know where/who i can ask to add the [g] tag to the name of the topic?
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation.
the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you.
*facepalm*
Well, im getting banshees out of ONE starport when gas allows. How can it "severely reduces" my tank count? Also, my personal style do not include heavy banshee harass. They're more a psychological tool that forces the toss to take care of these all game long and make him feel unsafe. Wonder how he'll be ahead considering that except in early game my banshees will be at home, and he does still have to build cannons and stuff like that to not be punished. Phenix versus any competent (people here seems to love that word) mech terran will get shredded by thors and ghosts.
For that statement . .. well, in fact, i'll do the answer that basically apply about your whole post : Watch replays and read the guide. One of the biggest goal of this strategy is to be able to handle these "deadly" air switch. Basically like most people it looks like you stopped reading in the middle of the midgame section
edit : do someone know where/who i can ask to add the [g] tag to the name of the topic?
how are you keeping him from expoing / tech switching without heavy / constant harassment?
how does getting a starport that early + cloak + a banshee NOT reduce your tank count heavily?
in what world does anyone have the gas to go thor / ghost to deal with phoenix while still meching?
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation.
the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you.
*facepalm*
Well, im getting banshees out of ONE starport when gas allows. How can it "severely reduces" my tank count? Also, my personal style do not include heavy banshee harass. They're more a psychological tool that forces the toss to take care of these all game long and make him feel unsafe. Wonder how he'll be ahead considering that except in early game my banshees will be at home, and he does still have to build cannons and stuff like that to not be punished. Phenix versus any competent (people here seems to love that word) mech terran will get shredded by thors and ghosts.
For that statement . .. well, in fact, i'll do the answer that basically apply about your whole post : Watch replays and read the guide. One of the biggest goal of this strategy is to be able to handle these "deadly" air switch. Basically like most people it looks like you stopped reading in the middle of the midgame section
edit : do someone know where/who i can ask to add the [g] tag to the name of the topic?
how are you keeping him from expoing / tech switching without heavy / constant harassment?
how does getting a starport that early + cloak + a banshee NOT reduce your tank count heavily?
in what world does anyone have the gas to go thor / ghost to deal with phoenix while still meching?
what the hell?
As i said few pages ago, i'll not answer to that kind of statement which will be answered by watching some replays and reading the guide
edit : regarding ur post's number, i wonder if your account wasnt created only to troll there
how are you keeping him from expoing / tech switching without heavy / constant harassment?
how does getting a starport that early + cloak + a banshee NOT reduce your tank count heavily?
in what world does anyone have the gas to go thor / ghost to deal with phoenix while still meching?
what the hell?
1) Banshee is good to snipe expo and isolated pylons, and remember protoss that he needs pylons. 2) You don't need tanks in early game, thor is better. Thor + rine + raven + banshee is good until ~11 min where you have 2 bases, 3 factories and 1 starport constaly producing. After 15 min, you need tanks : thors are to big and they can't attack all at the same time vs protoss ball if you have too much of them. Thors are made to deal heavy damage and protect tanks who can all kill with big range. 3) With upgraded mech army, you need 2 or 3 ghost before going for the kill, at ~17 19min games, so you have at least 3 bases = 6 gaz = 680 gaz income per minute. x4 tanks = 500 gaz, 1 ghost = 100 gaz, 1 banshee = 100 gaz, the rest of money is in helion. Once again, pure theory crafting but just watch replays before saying it's not possible.
What protoss players don't understand : standard play protoss works against standard play terran, if terran doesn't play standard, you need other unit composition.
I much prefer tanks in the early game against protoss. They're much more useful in allowing you to do a tank/bfh timing push while taking your third while still being worth their weight in gold defensively. I don't really see why you would want early game thors over early game tanks to be honest. I find that this push can outright kill the protoss if he is greedy, but will otherwise at least trade cost effectively and help you get rid of your early game marines. I prefer adding thorns in later to make your army more robust.
What the fuck are you talking about? I have plenty of Marines in the early game to handle those. Are you seriously at such a low level and lack of game understanding that you think anybody would be relying on Thors to handle Phoenix and Void Rays? That's actually the silliest thing I've ever heard.
If you're talking about a 1 base allin, my build has plenty of Marines to hold off 3 gate Void Ray, also scouting and putting up bunkers is key. If you're talking about a Protoss using Phoenix and Void Rays to defend my timing push, that's just silly because they won't have the gas to spend on any kind of ground army to fight off the Marine/Hellion portion. You don't use Stargate units to defend 2 base timing pushes unless you're in gold league.
Stargate units are absolutely useless against Terran outside of 1 base Void Ray allins or late game Carrier transitions vs Mech. Phoenixes are never an issue.
I have literally dozens of replays of my build with early tanks in Master league, working well against all kinds of Protoss openers. Are you saying that every single one of my opponents was simply not smart enough to go stargate?
Are you trolling? Please tell me you're trolling.
Here, why don't you meet me online and go stargate units to hold off my push. Crocodile 703. I'm online right now. I guarantee you nobody here thinks that what you're saying is correct, so don't act like you're speaking for the thread because you might be making the most retarded point I've ever seen anybody make in a thread on TL.
And furthermore, MKP and ST_Sound have been seen to use a mech build apparently popularized by ANOTHER Korean player named gorapadong which involves a reactor expand (my opener) into 3-4 factory siege tank/hellion. Are you saying MKP and ST_Sound are just scrubs who don't know as well as you? Please.
The MKP game has been posted many times in this thread.
Also check out Yoshi Kirishima's stream, he does all kinds of mech builds in TvP regularly, very few of them incorporate early Thors from what I've seen.
On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote: Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything.
I think its a good idea to theorycraft based on actual games. Like in a specific game one could try to theorycraft what would happen if the toss did X or Y, and then one could go on to analyze the best response from the mech player.
Oh if it's about a specific game, then yes of course! :D but yea like you say so many people are just like "blink stalkers beat this" without checking the replay or referring specifically =/
But doesn't a mothership die if you have 10 turrets or so shotting at it. I mean can the mothership actually get into your base (it kinda moves slowly) before it dies if your turret ring is big enough?
EDIT: Kinda wonders though. (Hyphtoetical situation). What if my opponent goes for like 2 base and then adds a lot of VR's. Should I rely on thors + emp to deal with it. Or are vikings nesscary? (like building vikings instead of banshees?).
the thor or tanks early is a personal preference. Tanks are better if you want to be agressive early with hellions support, and to defend stalker based-push. Thors are better to set up for a defensive game, and holds immortal/zealot/sentry thing.
About the Mothership thing : the MS can just rush in and launch the recall. even if it dies the recall complete T_T
@Hider : hm, i would say adding just a few vikings to avoid "accidents"
Anyway, Crocodile, after seeing your replays, I wanted to try some ghost-less mech. Basically i did it long time ago (when i started to mech in fact) and i stopped because i wasnt able to find a good opening, but now that i can use a good opening . . damn , it's insane. I'll test it more next days
edit : also, new replays. Actually im not able to play on my main computer, and due to the fact i have a really hard time playing on my second comp, i cant do that much long macro games that i used to do. Sorry for that as it really reduces the number of good games i can upload T_T
Thanks! I find it requires you be a little more aggressive (actively move out to deny bases and stuff as long as you're confident of your army superiority), use more barracks walls and stuff like that, but it is super fun and it totally works. Be sure to tell me how it goes!
On April 09 2012 06:39 Lyyna wrote: the thor or tanks early is a personal preference. Tanks are better if you want to be agressive early with hellions support, and to defend stalker based-push. Thors are better to set up for a defensive game, and holds immortal/zealot/sentry thing.
About the Mothership thing : the MS can just rush in and launch the recall. even if it dies the recall complete T_T
@Hider : hm, i would say adding just a few vikings to avoid "accidents"
Anyway, Crocodile, after seeing your replays, I wanted to try some ghost-less mech. Basically i did it long time ago (when i started to mech in fact) and i stopped because i wasnt able to find a good opening, but now that i can use a good opening . . damn , it's insane. I'll test it more next days
edit : also, new replays. Actually im not able to play on my main computer, and due to the fact i have a really hard time playing on my second comp, i cant do that much long macro games that i used to do. Sorry for that as it really reduces the number of good games i can upload T_T
The reason why one could want to not build vikings or ghosts to deal with mothership is that they cost supply. Massing turrets might be preferable if one wants a stronger army.
On April 09 2012 04:21 LloydPGM wrote: okay man, build your early tanks and get stomped, you seem smarter that everyone else here.
Watch gorapadong's replays. He's played against early stargate. He just gets an early starport making a couple vikings without reactor, puts 1 turret at each base, then pushes out like usual anyways. He has enough marines and knows the colossi/HT tech will be delayed, and he can use the vikings later once colossi come out so it's not like he "wastes" those vikings.
The MKP game has been posted many times in this thread.
Also check out Yoshi Kirishima's stream, he does all kinds of mech builds in TvP regularly, very few of them incorporate early Thors from what I've seen.
What lynna said about tanks vs thors makes sense... their use is sort of similar in TvZ too. I haven't really thought about what it means to get tanks or thors first.
Anyway yeah gorapadong's 3-4 fact build is indeed aggressive, allowing you to apply a lot of pressure and delay protoss's third for a long time. That just uses tanks and hellions.
But with cloak banshee opening (either after expansion or before or whatever), you can go choose either thors or tanks, which is an advantage of gorapadong's opening. Obviously banshee marine tank is pretty strong and the banshees keep the protoss at bay, and as a long as you have a wall with bunker+marine tanks should be about as effective as thors. But if it's a map like Metalopolis, where the natural is hard to hold, I think Thors is a better idea. (Unless maybe you spawn close air position, since you can sit at the watch tower and fortify that area with tanks, so that protoss has to go all the way around the map, you can see that in Illusions's replays, like the one on Day9 daily lol). Maybe another way that can help you decide tanks or thors is, if you open banshee first (1 base cloak banshee or gasless expand into cloak banshee), you can scout his tech with the banshees then you can decide thor or tank. If he's going for templar tech, thors are probably better (you don't have too many hellions to kill zealots yet, and Banshee DPS is high but not high enough, but maybe someone will disagree with me since it means they have no good antiair, but they could just canon up at home with a couple HT right?). Against robo tech, I think both thor and tank would be good ideas?
On April 09 2012 04:21 LloydPGM wrote: okay man, build your early tanks and get stomped, you seem smarter that everyone else here.
Watch gorapadong's replays. He's played against early stargate. He just gets an early starport making a couple vikings without reactor, puts 1 turret at each base, then pushes out like usual anyways. He has enough marines and knows the colossi/HT tech will be delayed, and he can use the vikings later once colossi come out so it's not like he "wastes" those vikings.
The MKP game has been posted many times in this thread.
Also check out Yoshi Kirishima's stream, he does all kinds of mech builds in TvP regularly, very few of them incorporate early Thors from what I've seen.
What lynna said about tanks vs thors makes sense... their use is sort of similar in TvZ too. I haven't really thought about what it means to get tanks or thors first.
Anyway yeah gorapadong's 3-4 fact build is indeed aggressive, allowing you to apply a lot of pressure and delay protoss's third for a long time. That just uses tanks and hellions.
But with cloak banshee opening (either after expansion or before or whatever), you can go choose either thors or tanks, which is an advantage of gorapadong's opening. Obviously banshee marine tank is pretty strong and the banshees keep the protoss at bay, and as a long as you have a wall with bunker+marine tanks should be about as effective as thors. But if it's a map like Metalopolis, where the natural is hard to hold, I think Thors is a better idea. (Unless maybe you spawn close air position, since you can sit at the watch tower and fortify that area with tanks, so that protoss has to go all the way around the map, you can see that in Illusions's replays, like the one on Day9 daily lol). Maybe another way that can help you decide tanks or thors is, if you open banshee first (1 base cloak banshee or gasless expand into cloak banshee), you can scout his tech with the banshees then you can decide thor or tank. If he's going for templar tech, thors are probably better (you don't have too many hellions to kill zealots yet, and Banshee DPS is high but not high enough, but maybe someone will disagree with me since it means they have no good antiair, but they could just canon up at home with a couple HT right?). Against robo tech, I think both thor and tank would be good ideas?
I think we need to be more specific. What kind of exact stalker pressure is the tank heavy play weak against? Some sort of heavy gate pressure on 2 bases? Blink stalkers (1 or 2 bases) or ?
@Yoshi : Imo this is more a personal preference depending of your midgame followup rather than a "reactionnary" tech. Personally i choose thors because they are good at everything (tank a lot, deal a lof of damage,a bit more mobile than tanks . . .) and because they fit well a 2/3 bases defense situation even in low number, while still allowing to punish super greedy protoss. Early tanks makes you (imo) more vulnerable to blink harass and immo/zealot push when you dont have a lot of these, but get better once you reach a good amount and grab your first sensor towers
Ah, ok thanks So thors are more forgiving and flexible, while getting tanks first is a bit riskier at at the beginning but your army size will get stronger quicker due to getting tanks earlier.
I don't think getting tanks first is riskier. Against blink harass, tanks are really useful because you can zone the harass out in a way that you cannot do with thors.
Very few Protosses will blink all of their stalkers directly into tank fire, and those that do will take more damage overall (because blink causes stalkers to clump a bit and take more damage from tank splash) compared to a thor-based defense. Thors also would have to run around a lot to handle the blink attacks, while a smaller number of tanks can cover a larger area because of their range.
The thors are a bit sturdier, but like I said the tanks discourage the Protoss from engaging in the first place. I've never really run into a 1 base blink play (I think it would be vulnerable to cloaked banshees and bunker defense upon scouting), but I've faced many Protosses who tried to get blink off of two bases and harass, as well as those who went for colossus pushes and combined them with blink play trying to abuse my immobility. I posted a replay a few pages ago demonstrating this: http://drop.sc/153584
Ah, good point. So that's why on a map like Shakuras Plateau, it's usually better (if you open fast expand) to get tanks before banshees, so you can defend vs blink harass, which i feel is pretty strong on that map.
Also I just don't get it but if you do a tank hellion marine push (like the 4 fact one) how are you supposed to micro? It doesn't seem the koreans target the immortals first. I tried doing that and the zealots rape me, especially with FF. It raped MKP as well on dual site though. Now i'm targeting the sentry/stalkers with tanks and marine/hellion targetting the zealots, i figure that as long as the zealots and stalkers die you can run your next wave of hellions in to kill lots of probes since immortals are slow and... really don't kill hellions very fast. Which is what MKP did. But I wonder if, then, getting more than 1 immortal is a "good" or "bad" idea, vs getting colossus. 1 Immortal takes forever to kill with that composition with good force fields. 2 might be overkill?
Same with a marine tank banshee force, i shift a click all the immortals/colossus first, then target the immortals/colossus with tanks, and with marines I just kite backwards. Is this proper?
When I do my Marine/Tank/Hellion/Banshee push, I target Colossus first with tanks as long as they are near stalkers. The splash from the tanks combined with the Colossus' ability to walk over Protoss units means this usually maximizes my splash.
My second priority is always stalkers, and they take first priority if the Colossi are not on top of them. My first goal is always to eliminate the stalkers, and often the Protoss immediately disengages when they realize that they have no AA left to deal with banshees.
With ghost-less mech, I don't think you should focus too much on immortals. It sounds counter-intuitive, I know, but they are RARELY the scary part of a Protoss' composition for me.
From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually).
On April 10 2012 05:05 Dragonspear wrote: From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually).
Auto firing tanks onto charglots means your tanks kill your own army. You need to focus tanks on something that is not going to self splash you
On April 10 2012 05:05 Dragonspear wrote: From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually).
Auto firing tanks onto charglots means your tanks kill your own army. You need to focus tanks on something that is not going to self splash you
I think you're right and this is something I should start working on. Usually I just expect they'll be dead and i'll sacrifice my hellion wall in front of them. But I have noticed that I'm ending engagements with a paltry ground force left over (comparatively). Thanks for the advice I'll try to remember it in the next few days on ladder where I practice =)
On April 10 2012 05:05 Dragonspear wrote: From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually).
Auto firing tanks onto charglots means your tanks kill your own army. You need to focus tanks on something that is not going to self splash you
I think you're right and this is something I should start working on. Usually I just expect they'll be dead and i'll sacrifice my hellion wall in front of them. But I have noticed that I'm ending engagements with a paltry ground force left over (comparatively). Thanks for the advice I'll try to remember it in the next few days on ladder where I practice =)
Once you start target firing tanks, you'll be amazed at how much more cost-effective your army is.
Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
Heya watched the replay. First of all, your natural CC, need i say more? It was half finished for about 2 minutes while you long distanced mined. That cost you far more than you realise i think. You had only 32 scvs at 10 min, he has 50. You should have at least 40 (maybe only 40 with your opener, i know its lke 48 with a 1 rax expo.)
Small point but you shouldve sent a marines around clearing pylons.
At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
Looking at your vision, you also havent scouted in like 10 minutes when you suicided a banshee into his 3rd. The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes.
Love the sensor towers though. But still haven't killed the rocks at your 3rd, or taken out that pylon.
Now here is a biggie. The fight:
1) No PDDs, your raven just died
2) The tanks are soooo spread out, He is constantly engaging less than half your army. When he attacks most of your army cant hit him, and he just walks through. I think this is a huge mistake, im no pro on positioning, id love to hear the OP on this, but I know this is not right. Even with this, you still pushed him back. Imagine what would have happened with those PDDs, emps and better army position. You just couldn't resupply as fast.
3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here
If anyone wants to disagree with any of this, please do, I wont be offended at all
EDIT: Also 0-0, not even yamato upgrads for air. You ahve so much money most of the game, just use 3 armories for upgrades not 2. Even 4? That seems excessive.
Also no ghost upgrades, not even the codemasd(lol sp) reactor for energy. The cloak is always good with thors and ravens around as obs will die with suboptimal control.
Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
Final edit: Just to be mean, ive decided to point out that your end BM (i dont disapprove lol) says check APMs. You averaged 57, him 54. Not really gamechanging
On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes.
Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here
This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here
This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
Number of factories isn't the deciding factor, as you are never suppoed to lose the fight or even army trade. To be on even food though you need to have a clear army suply lead against the toss mass reproduction production facilities.
EDIT:
1) Your BO was terrible. Please just copy a build. 2) Bad bunker placement. Needs to be more south. 3) Proxy 3rd is huge gamble. Avoid taking these high reward/high risk situations untill you really know what you are doing (lets say untill masters - just copy specific builds till then) 4) I would say, hold back on harrasment play till you get to diamond/masters (like dont try to harass with the banshee at 14th min mark. But you should take the watch towers with your hellions (one at each). 5) Kill rocks with your tanks when you have control over watch towers (but only if you have control over them, you must not be caught out of position). 6) Your sensor tower positioning isn't optimal. YOu need to reflect upon why you are actually building them. Think in this way: "What is your plan if your opponent moves to the left or to the right side of the map and attacks from there. Do I have any way to defend against those kind of attacks? Your sensor towers doesn't help you in anyway as you already have control over the watch towers, and if you lose the watch towers you will lose the sensor towers as well (as they are vulnerable out there). You need sensor towers that gives you more sight than what your potentital map control would otherwise give you. 7) I still disagree with Lyynas opinion that blind BC's in the midgame arenesscary, but anyway, even if you agree with him, I think you should get ghosts before BC's. 8) Around the 20th min mark its time to build ocs and sack scvs. Yet you dont do either, you actually continue scv production. 9) Your tanks should be constantly unsiged and you should rely on sensor towers/watch towers to always be in position.
On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here
This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
Heya, firstly, while you dont have to harass, it helps greatly if you do. Ive found that im just not goo enough (highish dia) to macro as well as a P with no harass. Yes its possible but hellion runbys help hugely. But maybe thats just my style. I think you underestimate how much 6 BFH can kill in the time to warp in reinforcements.
Yes you dont HAVE to harass, but when the P outmacros you hugely *(like in your replay) it can help.
On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv.
While im no expert, i really think you need at least 7 factories at like 30 minutes. The thing is, you had the money, but you were not doing anything with it. Even when maxed its good to spend money effectively. This may not have been the root of the problem though.
The reason i said the game was over was that looking at it, I could see that there was no way you could win at 20 min in without some serious surprises. He was on many more bases and had way more income, had better upgrades, and was playing smart. Even if you had killed his whole army with like no losses he would warp in another one almost instantly as he had the eco to do so.
On April 11 2012 08:21 Squigly wrote: On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv.
During the big engagement he was on 3/0/2, and I was on 2/2. Not 3/2/2. Thanks for your analysis though. It was helpful.
1) It is, according to Lyyna -and i totally agree with-, the worst map for mech. It's actually the worst map for Terran. 2) You spread your army way too much, when he goes, he fights like 1/3 of your army, your hellions stayed at the XelNaga Tower all the time. 3) Lack of upgrades : you got 3-2 at the 26min mark lol. Your transition to air was useless because you were 0-0. 4) You never took your natural 3rd, why ? 5) Your macro was shit to be honest, you must at least got the 200/200 at 17min when there is no harassment... 6) Where were the ghosts ? I never saw any EMP. and 7) Get much more banshees, like 7 or 8 at least, with cloak and a raven to allow you tosnipe the observers, they become the best units you could get.
On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes.
Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here
This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
Heya, firstly, while you dont have to harass, it helps greatly if you do. Ive found that im just not goo enough (highish dia) to macro as well as a P with no harass. Yes its possible but hellion runbys help hugely. But maybe thats just my style. I think you underestimate how much 6 BFH can kill in the time to warp in reinforcements.
Yes you dont HAVE to harass, but when the P outmacros you hugely *(like in your replay) it can help.
On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv.
While im no expert, i really think you need at least 7 factories at like 30 minutes. The thing is, you had the money, but you were not doing anything with it. Even when maxed its good to spend money effectively. This may not have been the root of the problem though.
The reason i said the game was over was that looking at it, I could see that there was no way you could win at 20 min in without some serious surprises. He was on many more bases and had way more income, had better upgrades, and was playing smart. Even if you had killed his whole army with like no losses he would warp in another one almost instantly as he had the eco to do so.
This is actually exactly why he shouldn't harass at his current skill level. Getting these easy wins isn't whats gonna make you better long term. He needs to first learn the fundenmentals before he starts adding the "bonus stuff".
On April 11 2012 08:28 Faust852 wrote: I watched your replay DemigodcelpH.
1) It is, according to Lyyna -and i totally agree with-, the worst map for mech. It's actually the worst map for Terran. 2) You spread your army way too much, when he goes, he fights like 1/3 of your army, your hellions stayed at the XelNaga Tower all the time. 3) Lack of upgrades : you got 3-2 at the 26min mark lol. Your transition to air was useless because you were 0-0. 4) You never took your natural 3rd, why ? 5) Your macro was shit to be honest, you must at least got the 200/200 at 17min when there is no harassment... 6) Where were the ghosts ? I never saw any EMP. and 7) Get much more banshees, like 7 or 8 at least, with cloak and a raven to allow you tosnipe the observers, they become the best units you could get.
That map had absolutely 0 to do with why he lost though as the opponent didn't take advantage of anything. 3-2 at 26 minut mark is absolutely fine. He probably should have some air upgraes though.
I disagree with the 3-2 at the 26min mark, it's too late imho. And that said, he should have reseach armor before weapon upgrade. And the fact that he didn't took his natural 3rd is a map issue imho. But I agree that the protoss was very passive.
On April 11 2012 08:42 Faust852 wrote: I disagree with the 3-2 at the 26min mark, it's too late imho. And that said, he should have reseach armor before weapon upgrade. And the fact that he didn't took his natural 3rd is a map issue imho. But I agree that the protoss was very passive.
I think your confusing the speed of bio upgrades with the speed of mech upgrade. With mech you cant get upgrades as fast, and they are less of a priority (simply they dont matter as much, the difference between 0-0 mech vs 3/3 mech isn't absolutely game changing, its just a good advantage). But compare it with Lyynas upgrades. Im pretty sure he doesn't get 3/3 much before the 26th minute mark, and if you look at when terran players play mech in tvt they dont have 3/3 before 30th minute mark usually.
On April 11 2012 08:42 Faust852 wrote: I disagree with the 3-2 at the 26min mark, it's too late imho. And that said, he should have reseach armor before weapon upgrade. And the fact that he didn't took his natural 3rd is a map issue imho. But I agree that the protoss was very passive.
I think your confusing the speed of bio upgrades with the speed of mech upgrade. With mech you cant get upgrades as fast, and they are less of a priority (simply they dont matter as much, the difference between 0-0 mech vs 3/3 mech isn't absolutely game changing, its just a good advantage). But compare it with Lyynas upgrades. Im pretty sure he doesn't get 3/3 much before the 26th minute mark, and if you look at when terran players play mech in tvt they dont have 3/3 before 30th minute mark usually.
Nop, I don't. In some games, It happened that I play with only one armory, and I still get the 2-3 faster. Maybe the upgrades on mech are less important, but they are still a huge help and make your thors unbeatable. ^^
On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes.
Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here
This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
Heya, firstly, while you dont have to harass, it helps greatly if you do. Ive found that im just not goo enough (highish dia) to macro as well as a P with no harass. Yes its possible but hellion runbys help hugely. But maybe thats just my style. I think you underestimate how much 6 BFH can kill in the time to warp in reinforcements.
Yes you dont HAVE to harass, but when the P outmacros you hugely *(like in your replay) it can help.
On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv.
While im no expert, i really think you need at least 7 factories at like 30 minutes. The thing is, you had the money, but you were not doing anything with it. Even when maxed its good to spend money effectively. This may not have been the root of the problem though.
The reason i said the game was over was that looking at it, I could see that there was no way you could win at 20 min in without some serious surprises. He was on many more bases and had way more income, had better upgrades, and was playing smart. Even if you had killed his whole army with like no losses he would warp in another one almost instantly as he had the eco to do so.
This is actually exactly why he shouldn't harass at his current skill level. Getting these easy wins isn't whats gonna make you better long term. He needs to first learn the fundenmentals before he starts adding the "bonus stuff".
I have no idea what his current skill level is i dont think he posted his league. The P played pretty decently, so I assumed at least plat.
Anyway I just want to comment to those who are suggesting ghosts. I personally do not like ghosts and I have dozens of replays of me playing mech without ghosts that relies on fairly frequent pushing and lots of harassment with a BC transition. I'm also experimenting with triple armory for faster air upgrades. PM me if you are interested in this style.
On April 11 2012 13:37 crocodile wrote: He clearly stated he was in gold.
Anyway I just want to comment to those who are suggesting ghosts. I personally do not like ghosts and I have dozens of replays of me playing mech without ghosts that relies on fairly frequent pushing and lots of harassment with a BC transition. I'm also experimenting with triple armory for faster air upgrades. PM me if you are interested in this style.
I want to see you beat a decent toss going immortals without ghosts.
'Going Immortals?' Are you in Gold league? I can't stand players that talk in terms of 'going X unit' because it demonstrates a an extreme misunderstanding of how this game works. Are you talking about defending an Immortal allin? Because I have replays of that. If you're talking about a Protoss who legitimately just masses Immortals, he will lose because that's not only the stupidest strategy ever, but because I have tons of Banshees which force a ton of Stalkers (not a lot of gas for immortals) in the early-mid game and BC/Raven in the late game.
@Demigod : sorry, but i was basically unable to watch to replay before. People who analyzed it pointed most issues, especially about mechanics, but basically -Really late uppgrade. You dont need to power uppgrade as hard as with with ghostmech, but you went pure mech with REALLY late uppgrades -Too splitted army
@Hider : i am myself trying some ghost less mech midgame these days,really funny and seems even better than ghost mech in midgame (i feel you have to had ghosts at some points anyway). basically immortals are useless versus your huge hellion buffer
On April 12 2012 00:01 crocodile wrote: 'Going Immortals?' Are you in Gold league? I can't stand players that talk in terms of 'going X unit' because it demonstrates a an extreme misunderstanding of how this game works. Are you talking about defending an Immortal allin? Because I have replays of that. If you're talking about a Protoss who legitimately just masses Immortals, he will lose because that's not only the stupidest strategy ever, but because I have tons of Banshees which force a ton of Stalkers (not a lot of gas for immortals) in the early-mid game and BC/Raven in the late game.
Please stop this passive-aggression. If you previsouly have read my posts you would be aware your lower ranked than me, so shitting on other peoples rank doesn't make a lot of sense from your perspective.
Especially since I just asked for replays, as the times I have been testing mech I have had problems with immortals or archons if I go ghostsless.
Lyyna if you ahve replays of you having succes beating immortal heavy style without ghosts I would appreciate that as well (im not talking about ultra late game, but mid/early late game).
Ill add these in the next pack. In fact actually , due to the fact that a lot of protoss read the guide (and due to the fact i'm playing ladder to win points more than working on my strat these days) im playing some "alternative" strategies, one ghost-less mech midgame, and one MMM tank into ghost/tank,both really cool
First of all, you are not ranked higher than me. You are master league, I'm master league. Yet you demonstrate a fundamental lack of game understanding with your words (I assume you can make up for it with other aspects of your play).
Second of all, I have replays of me defending Immortal busts. I have not faced a Protoss who just blindly massed Immortals into the mid game because even though Protosses in master league can be really bad, none of them are THAT bad. You cannot just mass Immortals against a player who has a ton of Banshees (so you'll have no anti-air) and a bunch of Hellions to buffer.
You are theorycrafting and basing your argument on what you THINK will happen in theoretical situations instead of what actually happens.
Let me tell you how my build usually plays out: I open with a Reactor expand, giving me lots of Marines in the early game and a variable number of bunkers depending on what I scout (usually at least 2 by the 7 minute mark). Afterwards I do either a Hellion drop, then Cloak Banshee or I go straight for Cloak Banshee.
This pins the Protoss in his base and forces him to build Stalkers and will probably kill a lot of Probes regardless. If he is not defending my harass because he doesn't have detection or his army is not at home, I will drop a ton of bunkers to survive the allin that is surely coming. I get a Raven after 2 Banshees and then continue Banshee production. At this point, the midgame has begun and the Protoss has not had any window of opportunity to 'mass' Immortals.
My next move is to continue harassing with Hellions and Banshees, but I am very careful not to lose any while I gear up for a 2 Reactor 1 TL Factory 1 Starport (I also have double Armories at this point) push with Blue Flame Hellions and Siege Tanks. I push out at 150 food and take my 3rd with 5-6 Banshees, 5-7 Siege Tanks, a Raven, and a large number of Marines and Blue Flame Hellions.
Now, if the Protoss has decided to make nothing but Immortals and Zealots off of a standard-timed Robo, he will not have enough Stalkers to deal with my Banshees because of my Siege Tank count AND the 2 PDDs I have available, while all of the Zealots will get evaporated by my Marine/Hellion during the battle. Read: he will die. If he makes Immortals and Stalkers, he will not be able to get to the tanks because of all the Marines and Hellions that will not only buffer the tanks, they will kill the Immortals and Stalkers.
Unless my harass has been crazy effective, I usually don't kill the Protoss here, but trade relatively efficiently if there is a battle and force a bunch of Gateway units (delayed tech, etc). I never commit hard unless I know I will win. At this point I have three bases and start adding Thors, 2 Starports worth of Banshees, and a reasonably timed 4th. I usually push when I approach max and continually add more tech (BCs, and Raven/Viking as required) so each push is stronger than the last. Each push is meant to deny bases, delay tech, and trade efficiently.
At what point, in the general game plan I just described, is there a window for a Protoss to just mass Immortals and not die to what I'm doing? And that's completely disregarding how overrated Immortals are in a straight up fight against mech.
I would just like to react to one of your sentence Crocodile : 'how overrated Immortals are in a straight up fight against mech" I like it because a lot of players says that every protoss unit in sc2 counters mech, especially the immortal. But well, a little precision : Every protoss units counters TANKS. Yeah, immortals counter tanks. Blink stalker counters tanks. Chargelots counter tanks.Archon counter tanks. Air counter tanks. And why?because all these units can avoid or takes a lots of damage. But well, a good mech army will never be pure tanks,and that's why in fact immortals (and most intuitive "mech" counters) ends up being horrible
On April 12 2012 02:38 crocodile wrote: First of all, you are not ranked higher than me. You are master league, I'm master league. Yet you demonstrate a fundamental lack of game understanding with your words (I assume you can make up for it with other aspects of your play).
Second of all, I have replays of me defending Immortal busts. I have not faced a Protoss who just blindly massed Immortals into the mid game because even though Protosses in master league can be really bad, none of them are THAT bad. You cannot just mass Immortals against a player who has a ton of Banshees (so you'll have no anti-air) and a bunch of Hellions to buffer.
You are theorycrafting and basing your argument on what you THINK will happen in theoretical situations instead of what actually happens.
Let me tell you how my build usually plays out: I open with a Reactor expand, giving me lots of Marines in the early game and a variable number of bunkers depending on what I scout (usually at least 2 by the 7 minute mark). Afterwards I do either a Hellion drop, then Cloak Banshee or I go straight for Cloak Banshee.
This pins the Protoss in his base and forces him to build Stalkers and will probably kill a lot of Probes regardless. If he is not defending my harass because he doesn't have detection or his army is not at home, I will drop a ton of bunkers to survive the allin that is surely coming. I get a Raven after 2 Banshees and then continue Banshee production. At this point, the midgame has begun and the Protoss has not had any window of opportunity to 'mass' Immortals.
My next move is to continue harassing with Hellions and Banshees, but I am very careful not to lose any while I gear up for a 2 Reactor 1 TL Factory 1 Starport (I also have double Armories at this point) push with Blue Flame Hellions and Siege Tanks. I push out at 150 food and take my 3rd with 5-6 Banshees, 5-7 Siege Tanks, a Raven, and a large number of Marines and Blue Flame Hellions.
Now, if the Protoss has decided to make nothing but Immortals and Zealots off of a standard-timed Robo, he will not have enough Stalkers to deal with my Banshees because of my Siege Tank count AND the 2 PDDs I have available, while all of the Zealots will get evaporated by my Marine/Hellion during the battle. Read: he will die. If he makes Immortals and Stalkers, he will not be able to get to the tanks because of all the Marines and Hellions that will not only buffer the tanks, they will kill the Immortals and Stalkers.
Unless my harass has been crazy effective, I usually don't kill the Protoss here, but trade relatively efficiently if there is a battle and force a bunch of Gateway units (delayed tech, etc). I never commit hard unless I know I will win. At this point I have three bases and start adding Thors, 2 Starports worth of Banshees, and a reasonably timed 4th. I usually push when I approach max and continually add more tech (BCs, and Raven/Viking as required) so each push is stronger than the last. Each push is meant to deny bases, delay tech, and trade efficiently.
At what point, in the general game plan I just described, is there a window for a Protoss to just mass Immortals and not die to what I'm doing? And that's completely disregarding how overrated Immortals are in a straight up fight against mech.
Your low master I am high master. End of that discussion.
You like to shit on others. amd this isn't the first time you do it, please just stop it, you come out as a dick.
I am theorycrafting? No I am doing the opposite, check the following quote:
Especially since I just asked for replays, as the times I have been testing mech I have had problems with immortals or archons if I go ghostsless.
The fact that I have problems going ghostless vs immortals has nothing to do with fundemental game understanding, as mech in tvp is kinda a niche. However I will agree with you that this very well could be a lack of mech tvp game understanding. I never claimed to be an expert in tvp, i only played around 30 games with mech tvp (last month).
I just say I haven't succesded with my mech games going ghostless, and I simply asked for a replay (this is the 3rd time). I honestly dont care that much about how your games typically turns out. If you have a couple of replays destroying a toss going heavy immortals (like 5-10 immortals in a 150 food army) and he doesn't commit many obv. mistakes I will be glad to learn, cause honestly I hate ghosts, I like pure mech (with some air much better).
I'm not being hostile, you never once asked me for a replay. It's not a personal insult to say that your posts demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of Starcraft 2, because they do. You're the one being hostile, calling me a dick and saying I like to 'shit on others.' I gave you a very good basis for everything I said.
As for your pulling rank, the difference between low and high master is very small. I don't do well in TvT and I experiment a lot in TvZ, so my ranking gets pulled down a bit by that. You sound like the guys on the bnet forums, where you see Platinum players explaining that because they are Platinum they know sooo much more about the game than Gold players, which you would know not to be true if you worked your way up from Bronze like I did.
I've explained why very few Protoss players would ever build 5 Immortals in a 150 food army (tl;dr because it's an extremely dumb idea), especially against my build which forces them into a style of play that doesn't really have room for a lot of Immortals before I have a very high Banshee and/or BC count which is why I don't think I've faced it, but I will give you replays that have more Immortals than usual at the very least in a few minutes, I need to find them.
On April 12 2012 06:07 crocodile wrote: I'm not being hostile, you never once asked me for a replay. It's not a personal insult to say that your posts demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of Starcraft 2, because they do. You're the one being hostile, calling me a dick and saying I like to 'shit on others.' I gave you a very good basis for everything I said.
As for your pulling rank, the difference between low and high master is very small. I don't do well in TvT and I experiment a lot in TvZ, so my ranking gets pulled down a bit by that. You sound like the guys on the bnet forums, where you see Platinum players explaining that because they are Platinum they know sooo much more about the game than Gold players, which you would know not to be true if you worked your way up from Bronze like I did.
I've explained why very few Protoss players would ever build 5 Immortals in a 150 food army (tl;dr because it's an extremely dumb idea), especially against my build which forces them into a style of play that doesn't really have room for a lot of Immortals before I have a very high Banshee and/or BC count which is why I don't think I've faced it, but I will give you replays that have more Immortals than usual at the very least in a few minutes, I need to find them.
From a protoss player, if I see you build more than 3/4 banshees then I probably build a phoenix and then immortals for your tanks, eventually into collossus.
I think a single phoenix just wipes out the foundations of your build, but I'm not sure perhaps you have played against it...?
A single Phoenix would get sniped by my Marines in like 2 seconds, and then you'd have absolutely no anti-air to deal with my ~6 Banshees + PDD. I get a lot of Marines to survive the early game with my build.
To Hider:
Found a win and a loss. In this one the guy makes 5 Immortals in the mid game (this is one of my earliest mech games) and they are useless in a later fight.
Here is a loss. Despite a TERRIBLE engagement in my initial push, I still wiped out his army and had an advantage. However I let my macro slip and lost in the late game for other reasons, all of which had nothing to do with Immortals. I lost because this was in my early days of trying this strat and I was quite inexperienced, so I let him get every base on the map and 100 probes, I got too many vikings to respond to his carriers, and my ground army composition was a bit weak.
I also noticed you mentioned Archons as a potential issue for ghostless mech. Here's a game where the Protoss gets maxed out on multiple, different army compositions each time (one of which is like ~1 million Archons), and I trade very efficiently every time.
On April 12 2012 06:07 crocodile wrote: I'm not being hostile, you never once asked me for a replay. It's not a personal insult to say that your posts demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of Starcraft 2, because they do. You're the one being hostile, calling me a dick and saying I like to 'shit on others.' I gave you a very good basis for everything I said.
As for your pulling rank, the difference between low and high master is very small. I don't do well in TvT and I experiment a lot in TvZ, so my ranking gets pulled down a bit by that. You sound like the guys on the bnet forums, where you see Platinum players explaining that because they are Platinum they know sooo much more about the game than Gold players, which you would know not to be true if you worked your way up from Bronze like I did.
I've explained why very few Protoss players would ever build 5 Immortals in a 150 food army (tl;dr because it's an extremely dumb idea), especially against my build which forces them into a style of play that doesn't really have room for a lot of Immortals before I have a very high Banshee and/or BC count which is why I don't think I've faced it, but I will give you replays that have more Immortals than usual at the very least in a few minutes, I need to find them.
From a protoss player, if I see you build more than 3/4 banshees then I probably build a phoenix and then immortals for your tanks, eventually into collossus.
I think a single phoenix just wipes out the foundations of your build, but I'm not sure perhaps you have played against it...?
The only time i saw a protoss trying phoenix + immortals in reaction to my banshee / ( thor or tanks) army , i just built 5 rax and did a 611 push off 2 bases. So yeah, he destroyed my 3 thors, my 4 banshees . . but still had 30 marines in his base
"The difference between high and low master is very small" - Lol thats hilarious. Crocodile, while you have added to the thread constructively at points, your always very hostile and very bad mannered. Please try to be less rude. Sorry if im wrong, but i think youve already been temp banned for your hostility, so please tone it down for your own sake.
I have seen good threads like this get closed by a mod because of 1 or 2 people constantly bickering. So since I would love to see mech more often, please dont let that happen here.
On April 12 2012 06:51 crocodile wrote: A single Phoenix would get sniped by my Marines in like 2 seconds, and then you'd have absolutely no anti-air to deal with my ~6 Banshees + PDD. I get a lot of Marines to survive the early game with my build.
To Hider:
Found a win and a loss. In this one the guy makes 5 Immortals in the mid game (this is one of my earliest mech games) and they are useless in a later fight.
Here is a loss. Despite a TERRIBLE engagement in my initial push, I still wiped out his army and had an advantage. However I let my macro slip and lost in the late game for other reasons, all of which had nothing to do with Immortals. I lost because this was in my early days of trying this strat and I was quite inexperienced, so I let him get every base on the map and 100 probes, I got too many vikings to respond to his carriers, and my ground army composition was a bit weak.
I also noticed you mentioned Archons as a potential issue for ghostless mech. Here's a game where the Protoss gets maxed out on multiple, different army compositions each time (one of which is like ~1 million Archons), and I trade very efficiently every time.
what? marines? in his base? harassing with your banshees? really?
5 pheonix and a speed obs will shut down your harass. as soon as there's more than 1 banshee anyone with a brain will throw down mineral line cannons, and a stargate and just defend with ease. most toss will actually defend banshee harass pretty well due to experience defending mutas in pvz.
2nd of all, i think you should be learning to play this style at an economic disadvantage. simcity/cannons will minimise helion losses and banshees can be swatted away pretty easily as i noted above.
PDD stops canons... it is very very good against canons. If you don't have PDD yes canons can shut down, but there will always be a weak spot. You should be able to snipe pylons, and if not, then his expanding will be significantly slowed down.
Anyways I'm pretty sure he's talking about his push, not harassing. So you'll have marines there to deal with the phoenix.
On March 24 2012 00:58 Severus_ wrote: Hm dem ravens on that Shakuras game achieved BW Vessel status. You got critical mass of them and it was really hard for zerg to do anything at all. Thats all good but in the TvP games hm everything looks kinda gimmicky I will wait to see how this develops and might try it on ladder. Keep up the good work.
Gotta play gimmicky with the current balance of game with terran, past mid game you are at a lose unless the other races mess up badly.
On April 12 2012 06:51 crocodile wrote: A single Phoenix would get sniped by my Marines in like 2 seconds, and then you'd have absolutely no anti-air to deal with my ~6 Banshees + PDD. I get a lot of Marines to survive the early game with my build.
To Hider:
Found a win and a loss. In this one the guy makes 5 Immortals in the mid game (this is one of my earliest mech games) and they are useless in a later fight.
Here is a loss. Despite a TERRIBLE engagement in my initial push, I still wiped out his army and had an advantage. However I let my macro slip and lost in the late game for other reasons, all of which had nothing to do with Immortals. I lost because this was in my early days of trying this strat and I was quite inexperienced, so I let him get every base on the map and 100 probes, I got too many vikings to respond to his carriers, and my ground army composition was a bit weak.
I also noticed you mentioned Archons as a potential issue for ghostless mech. Here's a game where the Protoss gets maxed out on multiple, different army compositions each time (one of which is like ~1 million Archons), and I trade very efficiently every time.
what? marines? in his base? harassing with your banshees? really?
5 pheonix and a speed obs will shut down your harass. as soon as there's more than 1 banshee anyone with a brain will throw down mineral line cannons, and a stargate and just defend with ease. most toss will actually defend banshee harass pretty well due to experience defending mutas in pvz.
2nd of all, i think you should be learning to play this style at an economic disadvantage. simcity/cannons will minimise helion losses and banshees can be swatted away pretty easily as i noted above.
Did you watch a single replay? Or do you prefer theorycrafting?
If a Protoss rushes for Speed Observers and Phoenix AND Cannons in their mineral lines, they will have practically no units to defend my Marine/Tank/Hellion/Banshee timing push. If they're getting them in the late game when they already have all their other tech I'll have BCs out and will be transferring to Tank/Thor/BC instead of Marine/Hellion/Tank/Banshee as my core units with sparing amounts of other units to support. Phoenix will be useless by then.
I cannot imagine why you think it is a good idea to do this style at an economic disadvantage. That makes no sense at all, so I can't even argue that point.
Anyway, I'm not trying to promote my own mech style here in this thread as this is about Lyyna's mech, so if anyone wants to talk about ghostless mech with me I'd love it if you could PM me. I'm not interested if you want to talk about why you think it doesn't work even though I've got tons of experience with it working.
Do not get angry guys. We are terran, we are civilized and disciplined. We are not angryToss. We can discuss like adult.
About Crocodile ghost less style, as i said earlier, i'm trying some ghost-less midgame. Basically it sounds even scarier than ghost mech midgame due to the fact you can get a huge number of factoris, uppgrades, units,etc. And you do not really about having energy on ghosts. Having 2/3 fact worth of hellions and the same number producing tanks/thors relatively early in the game is insanely powerful.
Also, people, stop with the "yeah so the protoss just go phenix and then immortals and then blablabla". You're assuming the protoss has infinite ressources, get his tech instantly, is maphacking and reacting to every single thing the terran do, versus a blind terran with 1 base eco. In fact its due to people using these scenarios that mech has the reputation of being bad, as people NEVER uses realistic situations to "prove" that mech is bad or good
Just played a 50 min long macro game (masters) on metropolis, mined out map opened mech into mass BC's, really liking this style but its hard sometime too survive the mid-game, I had to heavily rely on PF's to survive the mid game and to be able to spend the long time period of getting BC's.
On April 12 2012 17:11 Lyyna wrote: Do not get angry guys. We are terran, we are civilized and disciplined. We are not angryToss. We can discuss like adult.
About Crocodile ghost less style, as i said earlier, i'm trying some ghost-less midgame. Basically it sounds even scarier than ghost mech midgame due to the fact you can get a huge number of factoris, uppgrades, units,etc. And you do not really about having energy on ghosts. Having 2/3 fact worth of hellions and the same number producing tanks/thors relatively early in the game is insanely powerful.
Also, people, stop with the "yeah so the protoss just go phenix and then immortals and then blablabla". You're assuming the protoss has infinite ressources, get his tech instantly, is maphacking and reacting to every single thing the terran do, versus a blind terran with 1 base eco. In fact its due to people using these scenarios that mech has the reputation of being bad, as people NEVER uses realistic situations to "prove" that mech is bad or good
Watched your game against shakurat (ghostless mech). Actally that toss was the first ive seen so far who knew how to coordinate multipronged attacks. Yet it killed me how he refused to harass planetaries with stalkers (behind mineral line), or even at least try to attack your 4th.
Nevertheless you seemed to rely extremely much defensive barracks blocking positions. Tbh im not to sure if its really viable on most maps to rely on buildings blocking the paths to be able to win in a straight up fight. But thats why I feel ghosts are nessacary, because they basically make you extremely efficient vs like 20 archons or mid high number of immortals.
And the thing about ghosts is that they are not really bad vs anything and extremely suply efficient.
But maybe as you point out they are not a neccesiity in the midgame, but I just had troubles being save on a vulnerable 3rd (or maybe when i try to take 4th) to defend against immortal attacks. I guess of course a lot of buildings blocking the pathes can help in that way though. But do you feel they are a neccesity to survive agaisnt these kind of immortal attacks? If not so I would very much appreciate if you can show me a game where you succesed crushing immortal heavy play in a "straight up fight".
Also, stream tonight 7pm. Dont worry,ill not cancel it this time :D
@Hider : If this is the game im thinking about, rax are just a "bonus" to help holding your front. You can use a lot of these as they're insanely cheap with mass orbital. Also about the ghost fact, this game was my first ghost-less and i tried to delay ghosts as hard as possible, and if i remember well at some point he tried to bust my tankline (OUT of barracks cover) with a massive archon/immortal army, which failed horribly
I think the best thing in the end will be to go ghostless midgame as it allows you to get really early a huge amount of fact with dual armories, and go to like 3 rax later in the game to pump ghosts
On April 12 2012 06:51 crocodile wrote: A single Phoenix would get sniped by my Marines in like 2 seconds, and then you'd have absolutely no anti-air to deal with my ~6 Banshees + PDD. I get a lot of Marines to survive the early game with my build.
To Hider:
Found a win and a loss. In this one the guy makes 5 Immortals in the mid game (this is one of my earliest mech games) and they are useless in a later fight.
Here is a loss. Despite a TERRIBLE engagement in my initial push, I still wiped out his army and had an advantage. However I let my macro slip and lost in the late game for other reasons, all of which had nothing to do with Immortals. I lost because this was in my early days of trying this strat and I was quite inexperienced, so I let him get every base on the map and 100 probes, I got too many vikings to respond to his carriers, and my ground army composition was a bit weak.
I also noticed you mentioned Archons as a potential issue for ghostless mech. Here's a game where the Protoss gets maxed out on multiple, different army compositions each time (one of which is like ~1 million Archons), and I trade very efficiently every time.
Thank you for replays. If you look at the game against cyrus: Even though you had an extremely strong defensive position (around 26 min mark) (which you seem to be very good at setting your self up at) it didn't look like you were efficient enough? Isn't this a position where ghosts would have helped a lot. But the thing I feel from having watched your games is that you need a really favourable position to be cost efficient (enough), and I am just not sure if that is always possible (but maybe I am wrong, having baracks certainly help).
And I am just not sure what are the advantages of not getting ghosts? With ghosts you can be cost efficient in a straight up fight (like in an open field). Cutting a few banshees/tanks/delaying BC's just doesn't seems so bad if you can become much more efficient. I feel like the "barracks wall of" should be a bonus help, not a neccesiity and with ghostless play it kinda feels you just need that wall.
Do not get angry guys. We are terran, we are civilized and disciplined. We are not angryToss. We can discuss like adult.
00:19:26 - PhXǂLyyna à TOUS: some people have skill 00:19:27 - PhXǂLyyna à TOUS: others 00:19:29 - PhXǂLyyna à TOUS: have toss
who is angry now ?
Why the fuck are you posting here if you just wanna pick a fight with Lyyna/Annoy him/Not contribute or discuss the guide? Seriously, if you got so many issues with him then leave the thread and dont come back, it's probably gonna get closed soon because of people like you.
And I recomand people to check his replays before talking out of their ass.
On April 12 2012 20:44 Lyyna wrote: @Chubz take an ironic quote on tl, a trolling (but still true) quote ingame, try to prove a totally different fact with it
Also, stream tonight 7pm. Dont worry,ill not cancel it this time :D
@Hider : If this is the game im thinking about, rax are just a "bonus" to help holding your front. You can use a lot of these as they're insanely cheap with mass orbital. Also about the ghost fact, this game was my first ghost-less and i tried to delay ghosts as hard as possible, and if i remember well at some point he tried to bust my tankline (OUT of barracks cover) with a massive archon/immortal army, which failed horribly
I think the best thing in the end will be to go ghostless midgame as it allows you to get really early a huge amount of fact with dual armories, and go to like 3 rax later in the game to pump ghosts
Yeh you had a turret wall there
But of course if you always can have some kind of wall then you can always be really cost efficient. I am just not sure of whether thats always possible. One could imagine that the toss could be so good at abusing the immobility against mech that any kind of walls could be avoided. If thats true it becomes a neccesiity for terran to be able to beat any kind of toss army in a straight up fight
On April 12 2012 06:51 crocodile wrote: A single Phoenix would get sniped by my Marines in like 2 seconds, and then you'd have absolutely no anti-air to deal with my ~6 Banshees + PDD. I get a lot of Marines to survive the early game with my build.
To Hider:
Found a win and a loss. In this one the guy makes 5 Immortals in the mid game (this is one of my earliest mech games) and they are useless in a later fight.
Here is a loss. Despite a TERRIBLE engagement in my initial push, I still wiped out his army and had an advantage. However I let my macro slip and lost in the late game for other reasons, all of which had nothing to do with Immortals. I lost because this was in my early days of trying this strat and I was quite inexperienced, so I let him get every base on the map and 100 probes, I got too many vikings to respond to his carriers, and my ground army composition was a bit weak.
I also noticed you mentioned Archons as a potential issue for ghostless mech. Here's a game where the Protoss gets maxed out on multiple, different army compositions each time (one of which is like ~1 million Archons), and I trade very efficiently every time.
Thank you for replays. If you look at the game against cyrus: Even though you had an extremely strong defensive position (around 26 min mark) (which you seem to be very good at setting your self up at) it didn't look like you were efficient enough? Isn't this a position where ghosts would have helped a lot. But the thing I feel from having watched your games is that you need a really favourable position to be cost efficient (enough), and I am just not sure if that is always possible (but maybe I am wrong, having baracks certainly help).
And I am just not sure what are the advantages of not getting ghosts? With ghosts you can be cost efficient in a straight up fight (like in an open field). Cutting a few banshees/tanks/delaying BC's just doesn't seems so bad if you can become much more efficient. I feel like the "barracks wall of" should be a bonus help, not a neccesiity and with ghostless play it kinda feels you just need that wall.
I agree, ghosts would have helped. I admit I'm just really not good at using them or incorporating them into my builds. Its as lyyna said, skipping ghosts strengthens your mid game because you don't really need them that badly in the midgame. The barracks wall is just super fun and it isn't necessary but as I'm sure you've seen it helps a TON.
I don't know if you've ever played ravenmech late game TvZ, but its a similar principle to using the ravens to make a wall of turrets to give your tanks a few rounds of free shots at ultralisks. You don't NEED it but man is it nice to have!
On April 12 2012 06:51 crocodile wrote: A single Phoenix would get sniped by my Marines in like 2 seconds, and then you'd have absolutely no anti-air to deal with my ~6 Banshees + PDD. I get a lot of Marines to survive the early game with my build.
To Hider:
Found a win and a loss. In this one the guy makes 5 Immortals in the mid game (this is one of my earliest mech games) and they are useless in a later fight.
Here is a loss. Despite a TERRIBLE engagement in my initial push, I still wiped out his army and had an advantage. However I let my macro slip and lost in the late game for other reasons, all of which had nothing to do with Immortals. I lost because this was in my early days of trying this strat and I was quite inexperienced, so I let him get every base on the map and 100 probes, I got too many vikings to respond to his carriers, and my ground army composition was a bit weak.
I also noticed you mentioned Archons as a potential issue for ghostless mech. Here's a game where the Protoss gets maxed out on multiple, different army compositions each time (one of which is like ~1 million Archons), and I trade very efficiently every time.
Thank you for replays. If you look at the game against cyrus: Even though you had an extremely strong defensive position (around 26 min mark) (which you seem to be very good at setting your self up at) it didn't look like you were efficient enough? Isn't this a position where ghosts would have helped a lot. But the thing I feel from having watched your games is that you need a really favourable position to be cost efficient (enough), and I am just not sure if that is always possible (but maybe I am wrong, having baracks certainly help).
And I am just not sure what are the advantages of not getting ghosts? With ghosts you can be cost efficient in a straight up fight (like in an open field). Cutting a few banshees/tanks/delaying BC's just doesn't seems so bad if you can become much more efficient. I feel like the "barracks wall of" should be a bonus help, not a neccesiity and with ghostless play it kinda feels you just need that wall.
I agree, ghosts would have helped. I admit I'm just really not good at using them or incorporating them into my builds. Its as lyyna said, skipping ghosts strengthens your mid game because you don't really need them that badly in the midgame. The barracks wall is just super fun and it isn't necessary but as I'm sure you've seen it helps a TON.
I don't know if you've ever played ravenmech late game TvZ, but its a similar principle to using the ravens to make a wall of turrets to give your tanks a few rounds of free shots at ultralisks. You don't NEED it but man is it nice to have!
Regarding "stronger midgame when you go ghostless" I am not completely sure what you are referring to? I mean you can still do that 2 base timing attack even if you plan to get ghost a few minuts later (as I typically myself first get ghosts when I am saturated on 6 gases).
And while I agree that there is a phase where we are "weak" when we transition into ghosts, this phase feels very short, and we can always turtle heavily on 3 bases in a strong defensive position. Im not sure really what kind of advantage being slightly stronger in the midgame by delaying our ghosts give us. Can we do any kind of timing attacks on 3 bases (?) Not really to my knowledge.
However lets say we want to take our 4th on a map like Tal Darim. Even though we will typically be around 170-200 food, our opponent will most of the time be able to get good flanks on our army, which makes his units a lot better. In this situation I am not sure if we actually succesfully can block every path to one of our expansions with barracks, and hence it can become nessacary for us to fight in a straight up fight. And without EMP I just dont think its possible to beat a heavy immortal push in this situation (cost efficiently).
And thats why it kinda seems like a neccesiity to have these super strong barracks wall or turret walls (with ravens). Im not sure how you feel about fighting on the middle of the map with pure mech/air? Do you really always feel like you will crush your oppoenent?
Did you watch a single replay? Or do you prefer theorycrafting?
If a Protoss rushes for Speed Observers and Phoenix AND Cannons in their mineral lines, they will have practically no units to defend my Marine/Tank/Hellion/Banshee timing push. If they're getting them in the late game when they already have all their other tech I'll have BCs out and will be transferring to Tank/Thor/BC instead of Marine/Hellion/Tank/Banshee as my core units with sparing amounts of other units to support. Phoenix will be useless by then.
I cannot imagine why you think it is a good idea to do this style at an economic disadvantage. That makes no sense at all, so I can't even argue that point.
Anyway, I'm not trying to promote my own mech style here in this thread as this is about Lyyna's mech, so if anyone wants to talk about ghostless mech with me I'd love it if you could PM me. I'm not interested if you want to talk about why you think it doesn't work even though I've got tons of experience with it working.
o not get angry guys. We are terran, we are civilized and disciplined. We are not angryToss. We can discuss like adult.
About Crocodile ghost less style, as i said earlier, i'm trying some ghost-less midgame. Basically it sounds even scarier than ghost mech midgame due to the fact you can get a huge number of factoris, uppgrades, units,etc. And you do not really about having energy on ghosts. Having 2/3 fact worth of hellions and the same number producing tanks/thors relatively early in the game is insanely powerful.
Also, people, stop with the "yeah so the protoss just go phenix and then immortals and then blablabla". You're assuming the protoss has infinite ressources, get his tech instantly, is maphacking and reacting to every single thing the terran do, versus a blind terran with 1 base eco. In fact its due to people using these scenarios that mech has the reputation of being bad, as people NEVER uses realistic situations to "prove" that mech is bad or good
alright, i've had about enough of this. i've tried to be patient but you two have made this thread into the biggest fucking circle jerk i've ever seen. if someone has an idea they "haven't watched replays". if there's a counter to your units "you can't have them cuz i have x" or "they can't possibly have those because i have way more money" or "they can't have that because helions are imba and i killed all their probes" you do realise the hypocrisy in this right? saying he can't have the counter to my units because i have the counter to his units...?
why don't you two fucking geniuses tell me what has given you the most trouble with this style? do you ever lose? or is mech just so super imba you can't lose unless you shit your pants while playing?
McTeazy, you may want to reread the strategy forum guidelines. It is the job as the guide writer to share replays so he can be criticized. It is not the job for the guide writer to find specific replays to prove criticizer's claims to be wrong. It is the poster/reader's job to debate with evidence, ideally with replays to provide strong support.
"saying he can't have the counter to my units because i have the counter to his units...?"
They're saying more that you can't just imagine a random scenario with X army vs Y army. There's a lot more to it than just two armies a-moving into each other.
The most trouble I have is with late game Carrier switches. The Protoss deflects my harass and turtles to a 4 base economy and just switches over to Carriers, while taking more bases and massing Gateways. When I've made enough Vikings to handle the Carriers, they remax on Gateway units and roll over me. I have only faced Protoss who did this twice, and it was very difficult to stop. I think the trick is to rely more on Thor/BC/Raven with a few Vikings so that I don't get rolled by the gateway switch.
Other than that, I only lose if I make a stupid mistake. This is why I like mech. If I'm playing well, I won't lose to something stupid like a lucky storm that kills my whole army in 4 seconds.
As for your points about counters, this is why Day9 hates talking in terms of counters and I agree with him. Counters don't make sense, it's a simplistic and stupid way to look at this game. I'm not saying he can't have the counter to my units because I have the counter to his units. It's just too complex to simplify it that way. At the very best, I can simplify it to saying I force the Protoss down a certain tech path (Robo+Stalkers) via harassment which prevents them from doing something crazy like massing Phoenix and/or Immortals without just dying to my timing push.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say here, you probably don't understand Starcraft 2 that well.
Edit: Ninja's by Yoshi. Well put, you said the same thing as me
McTeazy, you may want to reread the strategy forum guidelines. It is the job as the guide writer to share replays so he can be criticized. It is not the job for the guide writer to find specific replays to prove criticizer's claims to be wrong. It is the poster/reader's job to debate with evidence, ideally with replays to provide strong support.
i don't have replays of playing against this style for 2 reasons: i play random, and the style doesn't seem to be very popular yet. i do have replays of myself defending sky terran type plays with a few phoenix in the typical turtle toss style, but i deemed them to be rather irrelevant. the point is i know from experience defending banshees is really easy. i've also played against blue flame helions as harassing units, and know that good simcity and some cannons will work fine. i don't have replays of this because i don't save them all and as mentioned above, i don't necessarily get that many pvt's. in any case, the points are valid and were being dismissed in silly ways with replays that show poor play, or inappropriate repsonses given the sitaution.
"saying he can't have the counter to my units because i have the counter to his units...?"
They're saying more that you can't just imagine a random scenario with X army vs Y army. There's a lot more to it than just two armies a-moving into each other.
no, they've been saying that exactly. and you're right about there being more to it than a-moving. that was my point.
he most trouble I have is with late game Carrier switches. The Protoss deflects my harass and turtles to a 4 base economy and just switches over to Carriers, while taking more bases and massing Gateways. When I've made enough Vikings to handle the Carriers, they remax on Gateway units and roll over me. I have only faced Protoss who did this twice, and it was very difficult to stop. I think the trick is to rely more on Thor/BC/Raven with a few Vikings so that I don't get rolled by the gateway switch.
Other than that, I only lose if I make a stupid mistake. This is why I like mech. If I'm playing well, I won't lose to something stupid like a lucky storm that kills my whole army in 4 seconds.
As for your points about counters, this is why Day9 hates talking in terms of counters and I agree with him. Counters don't make sense, it's a simplistic and stupid way to look at this game. I'm not saying he can't have the counter to my units because I have the counter to his units. It's just too complex to simplify it that way. At the very best, I can simplify it to saying I force the Protoss down a certain tech path (Robo+Stalkers) via harassment which prevents them from doing something crazy like massing Phoenix and/or Immortals without just dying to my timing push.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say here, you probably don't understand Starcraft 2 that well.
Edit: Ninja's by Yoshi. Well put, you said the same thing as me
you missed my point completely about counters. i agree with you and was trying to point out your silliness. also stop telling people they don't understand the game, it just makes you look like a pretentious dick.
otherwise,
GOOD! it's funny because that's actually a primary weakness of bio as well. the tech switch back and forth between HT/collosi that makes terran perfectly balance their composition or just lose due to not enough ghosts or vikings.
so the main two problems i see are surviving the early game and balancing your late game composition. i think heavy void ray/carrier would be problematic as well, cuz in that case you'd pretty much be forced to make a lot of vikings to not die to charged vrs. the remax would probably be very zealot heavy though so you might still win that second remax with walls and stuff.
so the main two problems i see are surviving the early game and balancing your late game composition. i think heavy void ray/carrier would be problematic as well, cuz in that case you'd pretty much be forced to make a lot of vikings to not die to charged vrs. the remax would probably be very zealot heavy though so you might still win that second remax with walls and stuff.
I was going to answer to your post because even if you're insulting everybody on this thread asking stuff i already answered, well, it's my job to answer questions about the guide . But when i saw that statements, it's obvious that you didnt even see any replays of lategame situations (and there is a lot of mass air into mass zealot warp in mine) , and you didnt read anything i see in the thread about surviving early game... i said previously that i wouldn't answer to that kind of blindly/randomly bashing people, even if i look like a "pretentious dick" (as you say)
I've been experimenting with Crocodiles ghost-less mech and i find its a LOT stronger. two port banshee of 3 bases with 4/5 factory's is ridiculously strong. The banshee can really just wipe out the immortals that there the biggest mech busters and also really overall is a strong DPS unit and early game harass and not too mention the occasional instant win if the opponent forgets a robo, Loving this style
I think this is pretty cool, good work. Will never work at pro toss level cause they have micro/macro to pick it apart in it's infancy but it's fantastic watching mech destroy protoss. I think all lower levels should play like this cause they don't have pro marine micro. I'll be trying this once I get done with exams..
I just played a game which is literally an exact demonstration of what I was talking about before. This Protoss commits REALLY hard to defending my harass by making tons of cannons and delaying his 3rd. My push takes out his third, then I retreat, regroup and attack again for the kill.
Here's another game, same map, where the harass practically kills him and then the push itself rolls over him. Apparently Metropolis is really good for Hellion/Banshee harass.
Awesome croc, for finding so many replays :D Haven't seen any of them but look forward to once i get more free time.
Thanks Lynna for continually uploading new ones as well. The tags are REALLY useful (naming them).
@tdt
Wrong, to say that it will "never" work. If it works at korean GM, I think that's good enough. It'll probably get buffed in HotS anyways. Not sure if you are talking specifically about Lynna's style though or mech in TvP in general though.
I uploaded a new replay pack There is some ghostless mech in it, including some long passive games and, for some, a BFH/tank/marine early push i'm actually working on, which is insanely strong
Also i'm preparing to start recording VOD's, as streaming is becoming harder these days
On April 13 2012 14:51 crocodile wrote: The most trouble I have is with late game Carrier switches. The Protoss deflects my harass and turtles to a 4 base economy and just switches over to Carriers, while taking more bases and massing Gateways. When I've made enough Vikings to handle the Carriers, they remax on Gateway units and roll over me.
Vikings suck against large numbers of carriers
You have to manually target with them, otherwise they shoot interceptors. Problem is, if you have a lot of vikings, manually targeting means a ton of overkill even if you split them into multiple control groups.
On April 04 2012 02:56 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Banshees do more damage to colossus than vikings, why people make vikings against colossus when vikings are useless against everything else? Banshees shoot every ground unit so they are better option even though they cost more.
Generally because vikings have so much longer range and auto-target colossi. With vikings you will have an easier time finding a good angle and also keep them out of harms way. With the banshee's low range its hard to really focus fire down colossi without puting them in a nasty spot.
Cheers Dan
Terrans should snipe always the observers
What if the obs is tucked away by the colossi and not flying off like a retard straight into your army? You will need SOMETHING to get the obs that is tucked away in the far back (it can be there since the stealth detection range is quite large) and that SOMETHING might be vikings.. maybe thors. I figured I should mention this as it might be an issue as soon as the future P starts taking care of their obs.
On April 13 2012 14:51 crocodile wrote: Other than [carriers], I only lose if I make a stupid mistake. This is why I like mech. If I'm playing well, I won't lose to something stupid like a lucky storm that kills my whole army in 4 seconds.
This pretty much sums it up for me. I'm just a gold level player, but I am just so tired of running away from storms and zealots when I play bio...
I've been doing ghost-less mech into battlecruisers after watching some of the replays on this thread and I really like it. I am also going thor-less (marine-tank-banshee into hellion tank banshee/BC with turrets if I need more AA). I don't feel bad about making 3 or 4 barracks early game as I just float them around for scouting or use them for sim-city walling in my mech army later on. BCs are really good; they can eat storms and even feedbacks pretty well, and unlike thors, I actually use their spell-damage, especially against players that try to get cute with their colossi and get them a little too close.
I think as time goes on you'll want to add Thors to your army. Thors fill a crucial meat-shield role for the tanks and hellions. Against large numbers of hellions, you'll want them hitting your thors and not your hellions because the thors can take a zealot hit and tank splash without dying.
On April 16 2012 10:12 crocodile wrote: I think as time goes on you'll want to add Thors to your army. Thors fill a crucial meat-shield role for the tanks and hellions. Against large numbers of hellions, you'll want them hitting your thors and not your hellions because the thors can take a zealot hit and tank splash without dying.
Good points, I just started with this style yesterday and noticed this. I started making thors too late and the P reached my tanks a bit too fast.
Almost every game where I went mass hellions instead of mass marines to complement my tanks/thors the engagements turned badly. So I loaded up the unit tester and put various 120 pop TvP armies against each other.
In every single instance Tank/Thor/Hellion performed worse than Tank/Thor/Marine against the Protoss armies, except for pure zealot armies. So why build hellions at all? They seem to be worthless outside of raiding and scouting. Am I missing something? If you go marines to complement your mech you need to upgrade 2 unit lines but you get a significantly better army that also works better in a re-max situation.
If you're fighting protoss with a 120 population army, you're doing it wrong. Hellions are better because of their harassment, mobility (warpin defense) and map control potential, their ability to be produced extremely quickly, and their superiority against zealots. In large numbers, chargelots are useless against hellions. Also streamlined upgrades and production facilities is a big deal.
If you show the replays i guarantee I can find up to 6 reasons why you lost that have nothing to do with your unit composition.
On April 16 2012 22:46 crocodile wrote: If you're fighting protoss with a 120 population a 120 pop army, you're doing it wrong. Hellions are better because of their harassment, mobility (warpin defense) and map control potential, their ability to be produced extremely quickly, and their superiority against zealots. In large numbers, chargelots are useless against hellions. Also streamlined upgrades and production facilities is a big deal.
If you show the replays i guarantee I can find up to 6 reasons why you lost that have nothing to do with your unit composition.
I thought the point with mech was to get an army that are strong late game vs Protoss? With bio you must trade constantly but I thought that with mech it is better to fight when you are maxed out?
Yes, but you don't want to be maxed with 120 army supply. You want to have a maximum of 60 scvs, and even that is pushing it. Even when I'm maxed with 140 army supply, I start suiciding scvs and trading hellions while I replace at least 20-40 more supply with BC/raven/Thor (after 10-15 tanks you really don't need any more).
Then ill push with my 160 supply BC/tank/Thor army not to 'go kill' the protoss, but simply to keep him on relatively few bases so that he can't afford all the high gas units he needs to engage my army.
On April 17 2012 00:48 crocodile wrote: Even when I'm maxed with 140 army supply, I start suiciding scvs and trading hellions while I replace at least 20-40 more supply with BC/raven/Thor (after 10-15 tanks you really don't need any more).
At this point in the game, do you prioritize BCs, Thors, or Ravens (or do you try to be reactive to the enemy composition)? I've been neglecting Thors totally and even ravens in favor of BCs. I guess my reasoning for this is because of the strength of spell damage lategame, particularly yamato cannon (vs strike cannons which for some reason I can't make work).
Thors are important in midgame but less in lategame. Their job is to be a shield for the speedlot but in lategame the BC and the ghost are enought for the speedlot.
In lategame I try to have at least: 10 tank, 10 BC, 10 raven and 10 ghost.
do you try to be reactive to the enemy composition)?
Yes, but only with my midgame army and not my latgame army. My lategame death ball can deal with everything.
In the midgame I try to survive and adapts to his composition.
VR: I try to have raven faster. HT+archon: I try to have more ghosts. Mass speedlot: thors, hellion and ghost in priority. Blink stalker: standard mech army tank,thors,hellion. immortal: more hellion and ghost. Personnally I prefer ghost than banshee but its a style. collosus: some viking and transition to BC faster.
@The WingNut I like to only get like 4-6 Thors, because after that they start to trip over each other. After that, I prioritize BCs, as they are useful against just about every Protoss unit, while Ravens are more of support for the BCs (PDD). I will get a few Vikings if they start to come at me with Carriers, but I usually don't let the Protoss get to that point.
On April 17 2012 05:19 crocodile wrote: Gyro... he wasn't asking you.
@The WingNut I like to only get like 4-6 Thors, because after that they start to trip over each other. After that, I prioritize BCs, as they are useful against just about every Protoss unit, while Ravens are more of support for the BCs (PDD). I will get a few Vikings if they start to come at me with Carriers, but I usually don't let the Protoss get to that point.
Any replays of your late game mech? I saw maybe one posted a while back in the thread.
This one is a really good one from Daybreak, I actually lose a maxed army but the Protoss can't roll in because he doesn't have any income after I sniped his expo.
What about if the protoss just archon toilets your air army as the ravensand vikings have very little health if the protoss can get them in there with 8 archons with +3 they will all die it think i know in the past this has worked don't know if you can move them in such a way that they don't get all spashed during the invulnrability. Obviously you can always emp the mothership but esspecially if the protoss keeps it back and can get terran air then surely you just get rolled by magic boxed voidrays once those ravens and vikings go down.
Several of my replays, and I'm sure Lyyna's replays, have demonstrated Protosses using Motherships, and air transitions.
If you're asking if the army would die if I was retarded and flew all my air units into a Vortex with 8 Archons and +3, then yes, my army would die, and I would deserve to lose.
This one is a really good one from Daybreak, I actually lose a maxed army but the Protoss can't roll in because he doesn't have any income after I sniped his expo.
In this one I'm really sloppy but my super strong army pulls me through! Also: a very good demonstration of why you should never Blink into tanks!
Awesome thanks! It's always good to have material to study. Hopefully I can find something about mass voidray + mass stalker. And maybe Lynna can pick some things up for updates to his guide.
I got inspired by this thread to try Mech TvP again. My issue before was the late game, so in following this thread, I added BCs in late game, and it worked! It's 31min long TvP, 4 base vs 5 base toss. I rolled several of his waves, with Thors, Banshees, few Ravens, some ghosts, and BCs.
P.S. Note that I skipped tanks. I just don't like how they work in TvP. I went with more Thors instead. At some point in game, I popped 12 voids in 3 seconds due to splash .
I just want to thanx all you for this threat. So usefull & fun!
"Dust, metal & blood".
As i'm a broze terran player :facepalm: i'm traying to find a "general way to go" during my matches. Usually i went 2 rax>FE an then rush thors & ravens (this gives my oponent a wide window between the first factory and the first thor where im very burlnerable, but is prety safe in the firsts pushes).
I'll start doing this kind of stuff you suggest in the threat. Specially since i show how do you spend the "extra cash" in planetary fortress, what I love.
English comments (so bad accent, lots of hesitation,etc) (15)
88%
French comments with english subtitles (more editing so longer time to do each VOD) (2)
12%
17 total votes
Your vote: How should i do my vod's?
(Vote): English comments (so bad accent, lots of hesitation,etc) (Vote): French comments with english subtitles (more editing so longer time to do each VOD)
Ok guys , i recorded my first VOD this afternoon .. but i quickly realized that it's really hard for me to express all my thinkings and reflexion in english , and it's really hard to understand what im saying due to my shitty accent , so i wanna ask if you would still prefer to hear my (horrible) accent, or if you would prefer to get english subtitles (and then i would comment in french)
Hey Lynna great work on Mech, but this is off topic, just a quick question. Why do people want VOD so bad when they can just download your replays and watch from your perspective...?
I have some problems to vote in this vote. Thats because I think if you struggle finding words in English you will struggle with your control etc too and the games wouldnt the best games of yoursself. But I dont like you to spend double the time for editing.
the real question is: do you have the time to spend double the time? And does speaking while playing give you problems with your control? I would choose the option: no comments. Add the talk when you rewatch the VODs.
Thanks though.
And Im also curious if the VOD of MKP vs Huk will be available.
@Tppz : the fact is that i stopped streaming due to the fact i was struggling to focus on my play AND on comments. so im talking about VOD's after games here, but i realized while recording the first one that even in this case, while commenting without playing, i stll struggle to find some word . Thats why i ask if people are ok with hearing my accents ( meaning they accept the fact that it may be impossible to understand :D) or if they prefer subtitles ( which will reduce the number of VOD's as ill need more editing)
@DontLoseSighOtIf : well, i guess that's because watching a replay do not tell you what is going through a player's head, you can try to understand what he's doing but it's impossible to have every "data" he does have/use to make some decisions, while VOD's allows to explain everything
Re: MKP v Huk replay: It will be available for free a week from Monday for everyone who did not buy a pass for Spring Arena 1. If you did buy a pass for Spring Arena 1 then it is already available for you to watch.
Re Lyyna and your accent: Remember the more often that someone hear's an accent the more they get used to it. I also think (as a proper arrogant american) that you will reach a larger overall audience by doing the main commentary in English since most people speak English as a second language at this point. I also think that subtitles would distract me from paying attention on the game.
Now to post a question about Ghostless Mech that was mentioned a few pages ago. Does the ghostless mech only really apply for that 150-160 supply push? Because when I reach the late game situations going ghostless with mech I just watch feedback and storm tear apart my armies.
Furthermore if I do end up getting ghosts but getting a relatively low number (2-3), if I can't get into a position to get a nice emp off when I'm pushing up offensively should I just EMP my thors/bcs at that point? I realize that normally the answer is no, but I'm questioning if eating the storm late game on a bunch of BCs/tanks and a few Thors is better than eating all the feedbacks on such high energy units. I just seem to have problems getting ghosts into position to snipe or emp HTs and making sure they land before my ghosts die.
Yeah i know most people will get used to it, but i wanted to be sure of what most people prefer I'll (re)record the first VOD tonight and try to upload it tomorrow guys !
About ghostless : i try to add ghosts as late as possible. Basically its totally ok to go ghostless even in lategame (you can see it occur in some of crocodile's replays some pages ago ,and in some of mine as well) but ofc its better to add them when you see your opponent is starting to mass HT .But its ok even without that( in the last replay pack you can see a ghostless army handling a huge army of nearly pure archon/HT, and in the replay ill cast, youll see that you can still trade well even when getting storm-carpet'd. And in fact adding ghosts do not mean there will be no storm, imo ghosts are here more for their ability to do "instant damage" to your whole opponent army in a few spells.
Personnally i never EMP my own units. I prefer to get all my BC feedback'ed , sitting there with half life but never dying due to repair/PDD/etc, rather than 10 storms,each eating 2 BC, 2 Ravens and 1 thor due to the fact your air will be above your mech and will makes storms insanely effective
accent is fine, please don't worry about subs! even when i stream i can find trouble finding the right words
Looking forward to more streaming/VODs/replays/content/text ^^
Wait! MKP used mech again? was it that 3-4 factory push with marine tank hellion? If so, hurray. I would like as many replays/VODs of that to study as possible xD
dang a week longer? at least we'll get it though
Question, i searched MKP mech and i could not find anything after 5 mins in the spring arena threads -.-; no one's talking about it???
Edit: Oh, nvm found the comments :D. Darn as I suspected, he did it in a game that "didn't matter". But still cool to see. Apparently he went double reactor BFH? and he did this at last MLG vs whitera too? time to check it out :D
New replays uploaded. Sorry for the low amount of replays . . forgot to save a lot of the games i did while trying to get to GM (like some games versus Slavik or monchi for example T_T) Having problem with the vod's upload, failing without reason. Will try again during the night
I love this strat so much. I rarely play 1v1 anymore because I'm not interested in playing serious with hard micro i.e. MMM v protoss - but thought mech was not viable vs protoss at a high level, until i tried this. great strat i play 1v1 every now and then now and have great fun v toss thankyou lynna
First VOD up : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqd55p_lyyna-vod-001-tvp-mech_videogames Not really focused on commentary for this one, here more to allows me to check technical stuff (for example i know now that uploading on youtube fails every time i try it T_T And thats why ill go on dailymotion). Ill try to do the next VOD today or tomorrow, with -Better quality -Better commentary (wasnt really focused on it for this one)
Ill try to save my loss now if i get some interesting ones. But most of my loss versus protoss are basically badly scouted allins
1. What opener was that? You looked like you were doing the mech push MKP and others have been doing but you added a Starport and started going for cloaked banshees at 12 minutes? Very suboptimal build order. 2. You moved out at a random time, lost some units to colossi, and then backed up. This put you a bit behind. 3. You sieged up all your tanks outside of your bunkers at your natural so when the Protoss attacked, the first thing he could do was take out your tanks.
Honestly, aside from everything else that went wrong in this game, you would have been fine if you just positioned your tanks better when he attacked and it would have been even better for you if you had been producing vikings from your starport. Keep your tanks behind something in your base, which is hard on Metalopolis I'll admit.
After having played mech a lot it baffles me how weak it is in a straight up fight. If you are maxed out on Tank/Hellions you can still be a-moved over by Archon/Zealot/Collossus.
I find that MMM into MMM/BC so much stronger, nothing that the Protoss builds can just a-move over your army.
The question I've always had about the mech play style is, how do you deal with situations where your opponent abuses your mech immobility? Like how do you deal with drops, air harass, run-bys, etc, if your army is very slow?
Mock Hamill: that's why you don't max on tank/hellion. That's just a bad idea. When I'm maxed with mech I have 10+ tanks, at least 6 thors, a dozen or so hellions, and either 8-10 banshees or 3-5 BCs, as well as supporting ravens, ghosts, and vikings in varying quantities.
Mieke: there are plenty of replays in this thread of people defending various sorts of mobility-based protoss play. Warp prisms+dts+blink stalkers are not cost effective enough if you defend well. Hellions, vikings, planetaries, and sensor towers are really good at dealing with warp prisms and dt/chargelot, and while blink stalkers are tough, they're so expensive and to do any significant damage with them you have to commit very hard to a unit that is REALLY bad vs siege tanks in a straight up fight.
@Gyro : crocodile's analysis is good, i agree with him on every point
@Rizla : 12 min : you end up with a lots of minerals because you got no reactor on factories. You NEED these reactors critically (basically 3 TL fact, 1 react if ghostmech, 3 TL 2 react if ghostless if double up), hellions are really important! Especially because you cant get thors on 5 TL fact out of 2 bases. . . and youre also going double upp and ghosts and starport. Too much on 2 bases ! 15 min : Idle armories for a long time 18 30 : You dont have any map presence. You never had some. You need to be active on his side of the map with hellions/banshees, and you need to have sensor towers in your base. Youre moving all your army to deflect harass and thats really dangerous without vision on his army ! 19 min 30 : the fight went well for you , but having vikings instead of banshees makes it harder to deal a lot of damage and hold his reprod
The overall game is good, but you need to work on map control. Agressive, with hellions and banshees,defensive with sensor towers. This allows you to avoid some big mech problems, mainly getting caught by surprise unsieged, spotting counter attacks, and harass. Also i dont like your focus on vikings, banshees are better with mech imo
@MockHamill : you are the exact kind of people i'm often mocking due to their funny vision of mech. The kind of people who thinks mech is getting tanks, hellions,and randomly A moving / sieging in the middle of the map. Read my guide again please. Is it about tank/hellions? Oh wait . . it is about TankThorHellionBanshee(Ghost) Into (Ghost)BCRavenThorTankHellion. Far from "tank/hellion" , right? I'll basically assume your post is a bad troll
@mieke : i talked about it every 5 pages of the thread, search a bit for complete answer (or wait tomorrow, ill add it in the guide in the questions section), but basically, sensor towers, "pokes" with your fast units, and abuse of macro orbitals/ mass scan.
General : Too tired for 2nd VOD tonight, will do it tomorrow. Also, 3rd one will probably be about TvZ. Next replays pack is going to be delayed a lot, as im not really playing these days (little lack of motivation due to the fact i missed GM . . TT)
Been trying YOUR style and by far I've never won so many times in my life in great succession. Winning 10+ games in a row? Yeah never happened with MMM style. Funny thing is, I'm like 60% on trying to get use to your build and even with 60% and with mistakes I make, I still destroy people. Hah
Awesome guide, going to mess around with this stuff.
To all the haters: If you win on the ladder with it, its pretty good. if you have fun at the same time and get to be creative, then it's kick ass. Mech might not be viable at the highest levels (although it might). For the guides sake that doesn't really matter.
The next one is probably not going to be about TvP . TvZ i think
For the next vod's ill not update directly the thread, as i want to keep it about the guide itself (or at least some ingame stuff). For vod announcements, etc . . .Facebook (just bookmark the page if you dont want to like it/dont have an account)
And also, ofc , huge thanks to every people supporting me !
So after going Mech for sometime with little success, your VODs have taught me so much about... well not only Mech, but Terran in general. I mean, before I watched your videos, the only time I have seen Terrans go for macro Orbitals, was in 3CC openings or superlategame. Now I'm just building Orbitals like when I play Zerg and build macro hatches and it makes so much sense, because scans alone make it hard to ever get caught in army fights, not even to mention their lategame potential, once you roll out with 170 army supply. Then your excessive use of sensor towers... again, reminds me of Zerg creepheavy macro styles, you basically always have a huge information advantage when defending.
Also a huge mistake I have turned off, was to focus too much on things you want to do when you go bio: play very active, expand fast, spend money on more production facilities. Now I'm focusing more on the main units in my army, tanks, thors and banshees - instead of wasting production on cute hellion play.
Big thanks to you and your VODs, I can just recommend them to anybody who wants to learn something about Starcraft2 in general, not only about Mech play vs Protoss.
I just watched the VODs and found the style very interesting. I love the core damage from the tank-thor-BC-ghost mix, it was really surprising to see it chew through some very scary protoss deathballs. With Ravens, Banshees and hellions as support it's a great lategame terran deathball.
It feels like multi pronged harass is still largely a problem for the style, but in the big fights it's power was undeniable.
Supernova attacked with like 6 Thors, 2 Banshees, a Raven, and some Marines against a bunch of Zealot/Stalker/Immortal/Templar. Normally with this build you max out, and I feel he would have done better if he had attacked later. Also, I always thought you get 1 Reactor Rax 2 Fact 2 Port, but Supernova had 4 Rax, 2 Fact, 1 Port. I didn't like that variation.
Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
On May 04 2012 00:59 beamingrobot wrote: Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
On May 04 2012 00:59 beamingrobot wrote: Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
Where? When? :o
His stream now. He's showing the replay. It's halfway thru though so might need to wait for vods, if he keeps them.
Edit: It's over now so might need to watch the VODs. The toss was kinda banking resources though, so yea.
No problems man, I was like, hellion thor vs toss? Isn't that against zerg? Haha anyway it's the last game of the night for him so it should be pretty easy to find it at the end when the VOD renders etc.
It looks like he plays this style relatively often (relatively) . . i see it once or twice basically everyday i watch i stream. Basically thor/marine or hellions/banshees, staying on a few factories getting thors the whole game, and adding reactored fact or massive amount of barracks for support unit. Relatively interesting, remembered me of the thor/banshee/marines i used to play when i started to mech
edit : oh and, new replays pack added as well, check the op for link
@ Lyyna really incredible guide.. great work in my point of view.
I have some additional questions:
Which transition do you prefer the Ghost-Midgame with Tank+Hellion+Ghost+Banshee+some Thors or the Ghostless with Tank+Hellion+Banshee+Thor+BC? What is in your opinion the strongest one?
And when should i start this transition? 12:30-15:00?
How many Thors do you build to survive the early midgame? I think you build sometimes 3 sometimes 4? Why the different numbers? Can you explain it for me?
I figured out that it is really important to defend with your whole army and don't spread tanks like for example in TvZ? Is my spectation right in your opinion? I feel i loose a lot of games because i don't defend with all my stuff and then it's his 100% army against 2 waves of my army.. I saw in your replays that you always have all your tanks on one hotkey..
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
I've been doing that cool reactor expand into 4 fact push lately on ladder. Its quite effective at ending the game right away. Transitioning is made easier because you can always set up a good contain nd your hellion production is so massive the toss has to turtle hard.
On May 04 2012 00:59 beamingrobot wrote: Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
Great evidence. I think this one game may prove that Mech not only works in TvP, but works at the highest levels..
On May 04 2012 00:59 beamingrobot wrote: Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
Great evidence. I think this one game may prove that Mech not only works in TvP, but works at the highest levels..
You're right! Perhaps we will see him use it in GSL soon.
On May 04 2012 00:59 beamingrobot wrote: Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
Great evidence. I think this one game may prove that Mech not only works in TvP, but works at the highest levels..
You're right! Perhaps we will see him use it in GSL soon.
I'm not positive, but I think he's being sarcastic. You can't base it off one game is what he's implying.
On May 04 2012 00:59 beamingrobot wrote: Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
Great evidence. I think this one game may prove that Mech not only works in TvP, but works at the highest levels..
You're right! Perhaps we will see him use it in GSL soon.
I'm not positive, but I think he's being sarcastic. You can't base it off one game is what he's implying.
I, too, was being sarcastic. Nobody ever implied that you can base it off one game, so refuting that argument is pointless. It's a straw man.
On May 04 2012 00:59 beamingrobot wrote: Polt just won a mech TvP. Hellion + Thor with +1 +1. Massed hellions with blue flame, started 3rd orb and then went into the nat and main on daybreak(i think it's that map). Killed so many probes that the toss was forced to counter. Held it > Win.
Great evidence. I think this one game may prove that Mech not only works in TvP, but works at the highest levels..
You're right! Perhaps we will see him use it in GSL soon.
I'm not positive, but I think he's being sarcastic. You can't base it off one game is what he's implying.
I, too, was being sarcastic. Nobody ever implied that you can base it off one game, so refuting that argument is pointless. It's a straw man.
Sarcasm doesn't display well on the internet, I apologize. Carry on, you mechers.
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts?
well i just want to thank lynna for this amazing thread, now its really fun to play against toss, cause you make them rage like i raged before when i played bio. so big shout out to lynna your the man!
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts?
They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts).
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts?
They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts).
I don't agree. Well I do agree with your assessment but you are basically playing with the hope that the protoss player is unfamiliar with the style if you don't include ghosts.
Ghosts are a must to beat a strong anti-mech composition. You can choose to play without ghost and still win, but you are basically winning because of the protoss lack of experience against your army composition.
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts?
They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts).
No offense, but this thread is FULL of people 'explaining' things about Mech TvP without actually saying anything meaningful, or helping anybody improve or understand Mech vs P at all. It's like what Day9 talked about, people are saying things that don't really mean anything in Starcarft. So I will try and start a real discussion here about Mech vs P. Ghost/Mech vs Pure Mech. Here we go!!!!
I think we should be A LOT more specific about the strengths and weaknesses. I understand you will have less Fact in the mid-game when going Ghost/Mech, but what does this mean? What is the strength/weakness of this position?
Your upgrades will be slower, but you have the extra burst damage of EMP/Snipe templar. In what SPECIFIC scenarios is having the Ghosts better than the upgrades? Does it transition better to the late game? Is it better for timing attacks or aggressiveness in general? Or better at playing defensively? Or does it get even more specific than that?
Finally, what can a Meching player look for at ~10-13 (or earlier if possible) minutes to find out which style will be superior (if one really is)? WHY?
In my experience, I often find myself wishing I had gone for the other route, but not sure how I can know earlier on which is better at the time. I find Ghosts are better against immortal heavy pushes, but worse against Colossus heavy ones. It can be hard to tell which one he is going for by the time I have committed to my tech choice, and one easily transitions into the other. EMP does much more damage against Stalkers than Zealots, but once again, it is very hard for me to tell which unit he is going to be making more of. As of now, I just go Pure Mech if I scout Colossus Tech before Templar Tech, but I can't really give a solid argument for why that is 100% the correct decision to make. My thought process is basically: EMP + Snipe is good against Templar and Archons, so it's worth having them in that scenario.
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts?
They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts).
I don't agree. Well I do agree with your assessment but you are basically playing with the hope that the protoss player is unfamiliar with the style if you don't include ghosts.
Ghosts are a must to beat a strong anti-mech composition. You can choose to play without ghost and still win, but you are basically winning because of the protoss lack of experience against your army composition.
If I had a nickel for every time somebody came into this thread to say 'you are winning because protoss lack experience against your style' I'd be fucking rich. Keep talking and saying nothing, bro, you're not contributing to the thread at all.
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts?
They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts).
No offense, but this thread is FULL of people 'explaining' things about Mech TvP without actually saying anything meaningful, or helping anybody improve or understand Mech vs P at all. It's like what Day9 talked about, people are saying things that don't really mean anything in Starcarft. So I will try and start a real discussion here about Mech vs P. Ghost/Mech vs Pure Mech. Here we go!!!!
I think we should be A LOT more specific about the strengths and weaknesses. I understand you will have less Fact in the mid-game when going Ghost/Mech, but what does this mean? What is the strength/weakness of this position?
Your upgrades will be slower, but you have the extra burst damage of EMP/Snipe templar. In what SPECIFIC scenarios is having the Ghosts better than the upgrades? Does it transition better to the late game? Is it better for timing attacks or aggressiveness in general? Or better at playing defensively? Or does it get even more specific than that?
Finally, what can a Meching player look for at ~10-13 (or earlier if possible) minutes to find out which style will be superior (if one really is)? WHY?
In my experience, I often find myself wishing I had gone for the other route, but not sure how I can know earlier on which is better at the time. I find Ghosts are better against immortal heavy pushes, but worse against Colossus heavy ones. It can be hard to tell which one he is going for by the time I have committed to my tech choice, and one easily transitions into the other. EMP does much more damage against Stalkers than Zealots, but once again, it is very hard for me to tell which unit he is going to be making more of. As of now, I just go Pure Mech if I scout Colossus Tech before Templar Tech, but I can't really give a solid argument for why that is 100% the correct decision to make. My thought process is basically: EMP + Snipe is good against Templar and Archons, so it's worth having them in that scenario.
Very good points. This is a great way to differentiate between whether or not to add ghosts before the late game. The problem I see is, as you said, it's difficult to know which one your opponent is likely to be going for.
The strength of having more infrastructure is obvious; your army will be overall larger and have better upgrades, but will be less equipped to deal with Immortal/Archon based armies, which can simply roll over you if you don't have an absurdly good position advantage. However, if your opponent doesn't go for an Immortal/Archon based army, you will be able to engage them favorably at any time and go into the late game with a solid advantage.
Most of my mech build variations incorporate some sort of timing attack off of two bases. They hit exactly in this time frame of 10-13 minutes that you're talking about, and they should allow you to determine if he is going for Templar or Colossus tech first, which is one of the many useful functions of applying pressure.
does anyone think using mech builds as a start for smurfing terran is good? and if so, what builds should i use? id love to mech every game, seems kind of relaxing. (I hate playing vs mech as a zerg)
would love to have some tips, i kind of like playing terran every once in a while. : D
Edit: I guess I might be slightly OT but yeah Im looking for builds for TvZ and TvT aswell
Playing Mech is more slow paced than vs Zerg usually, and less slow paced than in TvT. More Starport action, at least with the common styles of TvP Mech if you like that. You can use Battlecruisers like in TvT as well. I guess it just depends on what you like about Mech.
I've had trouble dealing with immortal/archon... just wondering, is ghost the right answer? Or Banshee/Air? Because I feel like with ghosts, I won't have enough EMPs to EMP them all, and if I do, then my army is like half ghosts and I don't have that huge number of tanks. I feel like Banshees are better, but just wondering about your guys' opinion... a mix, or is that inefficient? (I feel like it is... immortal/archon doesn't move as fast as zealot/stalker so you can kill some units before the engagement with banshees). Usually when they go immo/archon I don't have to worry about HTs though. Is this true or are they just not playing optimally? Are tanks/banshees not enough to deal with HTs? (sending 1 banshee or separating the banshees to snipe the HT after observer dies)
Edit: If we're nearing maxing out, that's when I start adding ghost + air (like in the 2nd video Lyyna released) if he's sticking with archon/immortal? or do I add ghosts and/or air earlier when I see that he's going for that?
On May 16 2012 12:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I've had trouble dealing with immortal/archon... just wondering, is ghost the right answer? Or Banshee/Air? Because I feel like with ghosts, I won't have enough EMPs to EMP them all, and if I do, then my army is like half ghosts and I don't have that huge number of tanks. I feel like Banshees are better, but just wondering about your guys' opinion... a mix, or is that inefficient? (I feel like it is... immortal/archon doesn't move as fast as zealot/stalker so you can kill some units before the engagement with banshees). Usually when they go immo/archon I don't have to worry about HTs though. Is this true or are they just not playing optimally? Are tanks/banshees not enough to deal with HTs? (sending 1 banshee or separating the banshees to snipe the HT after observer dies)
Edit: If we're nearing maxing out, that's when I start adding ghost + air (like in the 2nd video Lyyna released) if he's sticking with archon/immortal? or do I add ghosts and/or air earlier when I see that he's going for that?
I don't know if you are talking about this as a 2 base all in or as a general composition, but I play against this a lot both ways against a practice partner so I'll just say what I've learned.
Ghost is definitely the right answer! Ghosts and Hellions. Hellions work perfectly against Immortals. They don't take the increased damage from Immortals (which means they only do ~13 DPS, which makes them an expensive Zealot). Hellions also do 8/9/10/11 damage, so they are almost always completely unaffected by Hardened Shield. If you have 10-13 Hellions, you can take down 2-3 Immortal Shields in one shot with focus fire. WOW. Who needs EMP? Save the EMP's for Archons, and after that I find it's best to ignore them. They really do horrible damage against Mech (for 300 gas), especially with no splash. They are only good for soaking up Siege Tank shots, so make sure your Siege Tanks are focus firing the Immortals and basically anything else first!
Other than that, just a good core army of upgraded Tanks and Thors should deal with everything fine. Engage with Hellions/Ghosts at as close to the 14 Range of Tanks as possible, EMP Archons, kite and focus fire Immortals, retreat behind Thors, and I think you will be surprised at how weak this composition actually is when dealt with this way. In fact, you can beat it with just Thor/Hellion/Ghost if it isn't supported by enough Gateway units.
As for Banshees/Air, they are always good because they complement Mech so well. And against this composition they will be at least fairly light on Stalkers because It's so gas intensive, so that always makes Banshees stronger. Archons do beat them but in big enough groups they trade very efficiently with Archons (spread so no splash). It also means (usually) they have High Templar so then there is feedback to look out for. I'd say get the Banshees if you can afford it for extra map control and harass, but they aren't going to help you in engagements so not against any all inish Protoss.
If you play this composition in the late game though, BattleCruisers become realllllly good. They aren't effected by Hardened Shield (8/9/10/11), Archons do no splash, and they give your Siege Tanks and Ghosts the forward vision to get off EMPS and Focus Fire the slow Immortals.
As for HT, if there are Archons it's possible, just means less Archons. Use your EMP's and Snipes on them, and still focus fire the Immortals with Hellions. Archons absorb a lot more EMP's or Ghost energy in general, so as long as you trust your Ghost control it's usually better to face HT IMO.
EDIT: In response to your edit, I would add Ghosts as you take your third. I don't know what opening you are doing, but the popular ones in this thread involve opening with Banshee. I would say follow the standard of getting to 4 Banshees and quitting there, move to BC's when you have the economy (4 bases). If you are worried about dying, Banshees aren't going to help you. Banshees will help you gain an advantage in a situation where you are already safe.
No problem! I think you will find it's a very weak composition past the mid-game and if they stay on it too long you can just go and absolutely crush it with the army and the engagement I talked about.
I absolutely love this idea, however I don't understand the later late game, lets take antiga for example? what if youre playing macro/defensive and expanding until you realize..you have to take a 5th and 6th. How do you properly defend those expansions? You say to never push unless you do a good trade for army, but what if they disregard your main and 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th expos and just constantly deny your 5th and 6th with their 200/200 army? surely your siegeline is not long enough to cover all your bases, so what do you do at that point? Thank you!
On May 16 2012 18:08 -Joonie- wrote: I absolutely love this idea, however I don't understand the later late game, lets take antiga for example? what if youre playing macro/defensive and expanding until you realize..you have to take a 5th and 6th. How do you properly defend those expansions? You say to never push unless you do a good trade for army, but what if they disregard your main and 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th expos and just constantly deny your 5th and 6th with their 200/200 army? surely your siegeline is not long enough to cover all your bases, so what do you do at that point? Thank you!
Joonie
All he needs is 3 bases to win the game. His lategame army composition is literally impossible to beat for toss, check his replays.
About the Ghostless mech / GhostMech discussion -Infrastructure : Ghost mech will usually have a 1/3/1 with 1 armory on 2/3 bases ( i usually dont really add any production facilities on 3 bases, as you should use all your ressources with your really cost heavy units). Ghostless will usually have 1/5/1. What does this mean? Basically, the ghostless will have a bigger number of units, earlier, and you dont rely on energy or anything : these units can instantly fight when they get on the field. You'll especially have a huge number of hellions, and you can sacrifice them to do economic or positional damage (forcing his army to move where you want him to move). The bigger amount of mech units allows you to trade with him without any big problem (consider you can get like 8 hellions and 3 thors every minute . . ). Ghostmech will basically have less units, and will not aim at "trading" : with ghostmech , you aim at FUCKING TOTALLY ANNIHILATING his whole army with nearly no loss from your side. You cant really allows to loose everything as you'll have less facilities to reprod, and you also need time to get energy on ghosts. But as a side effect of less production , you can have more spare ressources to get a better lategame installation ( MOAR CC )
-Uppgrade Easy here. Ghostmech will only have 1 armory (at least until the BC transition), Ghostless will have 2. Mech is cool due to the fact that, even if getting double uppgrades makes your army insanely godlike ( and allows you to not have to choose between armor and damage), single uppgrade is totally fine too.
-Combat abilities Ghostless mech can usually fight most protoss armies well. It'll trade really well especially with the "standard" (but now a bit old school ) chargelot/stalker/colossus midgame ball : You'll loose a lots of hellions but you can replenish them fast, while increasing the size of your core thors/tanks army. The problem comes when he's getting heavy archon/immortal/HT. Colossus and air too. All these units are relying a lot of energy/shields, and they can trade relatively well with your ghostless ball (i said RELATIVELY. contrary to what people say, for example a big immortal army will not instantly win versus your mech army, especially due to your shitload of hellions protecting your core units). GhostMech will basically struggle because of the fact that you have to invest resources in ghost tech early in the game, meaning your army will not be as big as a ghostless one, but you'll basically have an instant ~~40% hp damage burst on his whole army as soon as you get a critical mass of ghosts (i personally think the ghost mech start to be more combat-effective once you get 4 ghosts).
So, to sum-up Ghostmech = more for defensive style -Weaker Until you get that critical ghost mass -Cant really trade due to the lack of production -Later uppgrades -More spare ressources due to less production - Allows for "bigger" lategame -Insanely strong once you get your ghosts count -you dont really fear any protoss composition
So basically, defensive lategame economic play, in a few words
GhostLess -Lots of production early -Can Trade units (and sacrifice hellions for harass) -Double uppgrades allows you to continue to win fights even in "late midgame" -Allows to be agressive
-Less spare ressources -Weaker to some protoss shield/spell heavy army -Start to loose its strength in lategame, once having the good composition to totally crush him become more important than being to just "trade well"
So basically , More midgame oriented play ,allowing you to be more agressive
@Yoshi : ZjiublingZ is fucking good. In fact, for both of you, can i add the question and the answer to the guide?
On May 16 2012 18:08 -Joonie- wrote: I absolutely love this idea, however I don't understand the later late game, lets take antiga for example? what if youre playing macro/defensive and expanding until you realize..you have to take a 5th and 6th. How do you properly defend those expansions? You say to never push unless you do a good trade for army, but what if they disregard your main and 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th expos and just constantly deny your 5th and 6th with their 200/200 army? surely your siegeline is not long enough to cover all your bases, so what do you do at that point? Thank you!
Joonie
The problem is :How do you deny these expansions ? Are you going to use something like zealots and DT warp to destroy CC and stuff like that? I'll deflect it just with PF turrets and air. So at some point if you want to deny me these bases you have to send your army there. From here different things can happen, considering i'll see you coming due to mass scan and sensor towers -I choose to intercept your army, sieging ahead of it. Usually you'll avoid to fight -I choose to sacrifice a base or two if i have enough economy and some spare CCs, and i destroy some of your bases, basically sending my ground army at one, my air army at another, and a few units to a last ones. And if we trade bases, ill win due to the fact i can just mass orbitals at home, while you cant really mass macro nexus . . . -Combination of the above : i send a few units (usually ravens for turrets, ghosts for nukes, or banshees) while letting you get in my bases. While you're destroying it , i jsut get other bases while setting a good position for my army. At this point you have to choose between slowing losing your bases one at a time, or trying to break the contain you let me do.
The idea itself of denying "late" bases is ok, but the fact is that at some point, if you really want to deny these , you have to commit to it. And due to the fact i have sensor towers, mass scans, and ability to do "passive" harass with nukes/turrets means that once you commit, you're dead
How do you actually micro mech armies? When I try out Thor/Tank/Hellions in the unit tester versus Protoss armies the mech army either loses or come out just slightly ahead. Am I missing something? How do you manage to really crush Protoss late game armies with your mech army? Please explain the micro of this in detail.
Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball.
GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too
Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed.
To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference
Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs
About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday)
And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts?
They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts).
No offense, but this thread is FULL of people 'explaining' things about Mech TvP without actually saying anything meaningful, or helping anybody improve or understand Mech vs P at all. It's like what Day9 talked about, people are saying things that don't really mean anything in Starcarft. So I will try and start a real discussion here about Mech vs P. Ghost/Mech vs Pure Mech. Here we go!!!!
I think we should be A LOT more specific about the strengths and weaknesses. I understand you will have less Fact in the mid-game when going Ghost/Mech, but what does this mean? What is the strength/weakness of this position?
Your upgrades will be slower, but you have the extra burst damage of EMP/Snipe templar. In what SPECIFIC scenarios is having the Ghosts better than the upgrades? Does it transition better to the late game? Is it better for timing attacks or aggressiveness in general? Or better at playing defensively? Or does it get even more specific than that?
Finally, what can a Meching player look for at ~10-13 (or earlier if possible) minutes to find out which style will be superior (if one really is)? WHY?
In my experience, I often find myself wishing I had gone for the other route, but not sure how I can know earlier on which is better at the time. I find Ghosts are better against immortal heavy pushes, but worse against Colossus heavy ones. It can be hard to tell which one he is going for by the time I have committed to my tech choice, and one easily transitions into the other. EMP does much more damage against Stalkers than Zealots, but once again, it is very hard for me to tell which unit he is going to be making more of. As of now, I just go Pure Mech if I scout Colossus Tech before Templar Tech, but I can't really give a solid argument for why that is 100% the correct decision to make. My thought process is basically: EMP + Snipe is good against Templar and Archons, so it's worth having them in that scenario.
I'm just beginning to play mech in TvP but i go with both styles double upgrades: mech+ghosts and pure mech with Air "support".
The difference ist in my opinion just if i go Ghost+mech i exchange one factory for one rax, which making ghosts. And i can support all my production facilities quite nicely. In fact i don't understand why everyone say that you can not go double upgrades if you go ghosts. If i go BC's i build 1 additonal Starport up to 2 at the ~ 17:30 until then i get a huge number of tanks+hellions+maybe 4 thors and banshees. If i get my 4/5 i start to add ghosts because u will need them in the lategame.
In conclusion i like the Pure Mech+Air Army into later BC's more but i don't have the big experience till now .
@Lynna I would love for you to add my input. I've been playing Mech and following this thread (and I helped convince you to make this thread in the first place) so I'd be honored to contribute to it!
On May 17 2012 00:24 MockHamill wrote: How do you actually micro mech armies? When I try out Thor/Tank/Hellions in the unit tester versus Protoss armies the mech army either loses or come out just slightly ahead. Am I missing something? How do you manage to really crush Protoss late game armies with your mech army? Please explain the micro of this in detail.
Just Thor/Tank/Hellion? Against what army? The micro is, obviously, dependent on what you are facing. Thor/Tank/Hellion is really a 2 base Army so I guess I will address it as if you are facing a potential 2 base Protoss army... (Ask clearer or more specific questions next time, Mech is very undefined so there isn't some standard progression of a game I can assume you are talking about).
Against a 2 base Toss you will basically be facing 3 things, Immortal + Gateway heavy pushes. Colossus pushes with less Gateway support. And Archon/Chargelot compositions.
Immortal + Gateway push - Engage with Hellions as close as possible to the 14 range of Tanks, Focus fire Immortals with your Hellions as you kite the army through the siege line. #1 Priority for Tanks is Shieldless Immortals, then the biggest clumps of Gateway units, I prefer Zealots though I honestly can't say which is "better" because you do get Bonus Damage vs Stalkers. Once they are close and have engaged you, Thors in front, Hellions behind, and Tanks behind them. Focus fire Shieldless Immortals still, and that's about it.
Colossus push with less gateway support - Reallly bad against Mech IMO, simply because Siege Tanks > Colossus in a straight up fight. I just focus fire Colossus with my Siege Tanks, does a ton of damage because Colossus stand over Gateway units. Make sure to maximize the range difference between Colossus and Siege Tanks by keeping vision of the full 14 range - keep your Hellions within 5 range of Tanks to stay safe from Colossus and grant full vision. If you're tanks are clumped up and you only have 1-2 range more than him because of a lack of vision, then it becomes a thousand times scarier.
Archon + Chargelot compositions - Scary if you are caught in a bad position, EZ if you aren't. Just force the Charge with Hellions at the ~14 range, focus fire Zealots, hide the Hellions behind Thors, ignore Archons completely. They do 1 more DPS than Zealots lol, and their Splash does nothing to Thor/Tank and very little to Hellion, and they stay 3 range away so they don't force Siege Tanks to splash you.
http://drop.sc/181580/ Replay of me doing my take on the build. High masters NA. My lack of Ghosts was a mistake; I thought I made a Ghost Academy and apparently failed. One battle is a Pyrrhic victory as result of lacking EMP.
Not necessarily relevant to the replay, but I've learned some things from trying out the build: After some initial Banshee harass they should be kept close to him until a 3rd base by Protoss is confirmed by Hellions. A great way to lose to a 2base Immortal all-in is to have your Banshees on wrong side of the map when it hits. I think mech attack upgrades are only necessary if you're going to be using Thors to fight Protoss' air units. Just try to judge whether you're going to be able to afford Ravens if Protoss goes air based on how much damage you're doing with your harass and on how effectively you defend his aggression. If Protoss is heavy Zealot and/or Colossus you can get more out of your units by positioning your Hellions in sort of a V with the vertex facing Protoss. His Zealots will block each other clumping and wasting Charge by targetting the front-most Hellion(s), and his Colossi will waste shots and splash the same way. The original Lyyna unit ratios seem solid, i.e. 8-12 Tanks, 5-6 Banshees, 1-2 Ravens, 3-4 Thors, ~10 Marines 7+ Ghosts, and the rest of supply in Hellion before BC. I'd say 70 SCVs are the minimum you should have, and 80 the max. More SCVs means quicker OCs for smoother supply suiciding. Unless the map is cramped for space your money should never really get high until BCs are part of your max. Should be constantly losing and remaking Hellion supply. After your first max you can suicide all of your Marines and if your OC count is already on its way to being high you can suicide SCVs too and start adding BCs. At this time you're also making turrets, sensor towers, more OCs, maybe some extra PFs, CCs to float to expos, double air ups, BC and Raven research, and Ghost Academies and Nukes. You never really run out of things to spend your money on until you have 9-12 BCs, 4+ Thors, ~16 Ghosts, and ~6 Ravens (and as many OCs as you can fit (at least 13) + proper defense buildings). You can cut your income by muling his expos if your minerals do seem to be getting too high anyway.
That's how I've come to understand the build anyway. Its viability is limited only by the user's multi-task. There are always more times and places to be harassing with Hellion, Banshee, Nuke, and later Raven and Yamato. Watch Supernova vs Genius on Daybreak in last code S and tell me he couldn't pull this build off with that level of multi-tasking.
On May 16 2012 20:13 Lyyna wrote: About the Ghostless mech / GhostMech discussion -Infrastructure : Ghost mech will usually have a 1/3/1 with 1 armory on 2/3 bases ( i usually dont really add any production facilities on 3 bases, as you should use all your ressources with your really cost heavy units). Ghostless will usually have 1/5/1. What does this mean? Basically, the ghostless will have a bigger number of units, earlier, and you dont rely on energy or anything : these units can instantly fight when they get on the field. You'll especially have a huge number of hellions, and you can sacrifice them to do economic or positional damage (forcing his army to move where you want him to move). The bigger amount of mech units allows you to trade with him without any big problem (consider you can get like 8 hellions and 3 thors every minute . . ). Ghostmech will basically have less units, and will not aim at "trading" : with ghostmech , you aim at FUCKING TOTALLY ANNIHILATING his whole army with nearly no loss from your side. You cant really allows to loose everything as you'll have less facilities to reprod, and you also need time to get energy on ghosts. But as a side effect of less production , you can have more spare ressources to get a better lategame installation ( MOAR CC )
-Uppgrade Easy here. Ghostmech will only have 1 armory (at least until the BC transition), Ghostless will have 2. Mech is cool due to the fact that, even if getting double uppgrades makes your army insanely godlike ( and allows you to not have to choose between armor and damage), single uppgrade is totally fine too.
-Combat abilities Ghostless mech can usually fight most protoss armies well. It'll trade really well especially with the "standard" (but now a bit old school ) chargelot/stalker/colossus midgame ball : You'll loose a lots of hellions but you can replenish them fast, while increasing the size of your core thors/tanks army. The problem comes when he's getting heavy archon/immortal/HT. Colossus and air too. All these units are relying a lot of energy/shields, and they can trade relatively well with your ghostless ball (i said RELATIVELY. contrary to what people say, for example a big immortal army will not instantly win versus your mech army, especially due to your shitload of hellions protecting your core units). GhostMech will basically struggle because of the fact that you have to invest resources in ghost tech early in the game, meaning your army will not be as big as a ghostless one, but you'll basically have an instant ~~40% hp damage burst on his whole army as soon as you get a critical mass of ghosts (i personally think the ghost mech start to be more combat-effective once you get 4 ghosts).
So, to sum-up Ghostmech = more for defensive style -Weaker Until you get that critical ghost mass -Cant really trade due to the lack of production -Later uppgrades -More spare ressources due to less production - Allows for "bigger" lategame -Insanely strong once you get your ghosts count -you dont really fear any protoss composition
So basically, defensive lategame economic play, in a few words
GhostLess -Lots of production early -Can Trade units (and sacrifice hellions for harass) -Double uppgrades allows you to continue to win fights even in "late midgame" -Allows to be agressive
-Less spare ressources -Weaker to some protoss shield/spell heavy army -Start to loose its strength in lategame, once having the good composition to totally crush him become more important than being to just "trade well"
So basically , More midgame oriented play ,allowing you to be more agressive
@Yoshi : ZjiublingZ is fucking good. In fact, for both of you, can i add the question and the answer to the guide?
Wow that was really fucking helpful. Thanks a lot! I didn't think of one style being more defensive than the other. I've been sending hellions sorta randomly without understanding these things.
And yes ofc, you can include it ^^ You should probably include your own post as well heheh
On May 17 2012 05:35 ZjiublingZ wrote: @Lynna I would love for you to add my input. I've been playing Mech and following this thread (and I helped convince you to make this thread in the first place) so I'd be honored to contribute to it!
On May 17 2012 00:24 MockHamill wrote: How do you actually micro mech armies? When I try out Thor/Tank/Hellions in the unit tester versus Protoss armies the mech army either loses or come out just slightly ahead. Am I missing something? How do you manage to really crush Protoss late game armies with your mech army? Please explain the micro of this in detail.
Just Thor/Tank/Hellion? Against what army? The micro is, obviously, dependent on what you are facing. Thor/Tank/Hellion is really a 2 base Army so I guess I will address it as if you are facing a potential 2 base Protoss army... (Ask clearer or more specific questions next time, Mech is very undefined so there isn't some standard progression of a game I can assume you are talking about).
Against a 2 base Toss you will basically be facing 3 things, Immortal + Gateway heavy pushes. Colossus pushes with less Gateway support. And Archon/Chargelot compositions.
Immortal + Gateway push - Engage with Hellions as close as possible to the 14 range of Tanks, Focus fire Immortals with your Hellions as you kite the army through the siege line. #1 Priority for Tanks is Shieldless Immortals, then the biggest clumps of Gateway units, I prefer Zealots though I honestly can't say which is "better" because you do get Bonus Damage vs Stalkers. Once they are close and have engaged you, Thors in front, Hellions behind, and Tanks behind them. Focus fire Shieldless Immortals still, and that's about it.
Colossus push with less gateway support - Reallly bad against Mech IMO, simply because Siege Tanks > Colossus in a straight up fight. I just focus fire Colossus with my Siege Tanks, does a ton of damage because Colossus stand over Gateway units. Make sure to maximize the range difference between Colossus and Siege Tanks by keeping vision of the full 14 range - keep your Hellions within 5 range of Tanks to stay safe from Colossus and grant full vision. If you're tanks are clumped up and you only have 1-2 range more than him because of a lack of vision, then it becomes a thousand times scarier.
Archon + Chargelot compositions - Scary if you are caught in a bad position, EZ if you aren't. Just force the Charge with Hellions at the ~14 range, focus fire Zealots, hide the Hellions behind Thors, ignore Archons completely. They do 1 more DPS than Zealots lol, and their Splash does nothing to Thor/Tank and very little to Hellion, and they stay 3 range away so they don't force Siege Tanks to splash you.
This is helpful as well, thanks! :D I often lose to colossi gateway armies (or at least, lose inefficiently aka trading armies), but now that I think of it, I don't usually have full range and my hellions are micro'd quite poorly against his chargelots.
On May 18 2012 04:33 saaaa wrote: How do you defend one base attacks from the protoss?
go siege+tanks before thor?
It depends on you're opening. With the Cloak Banshee opening, just scouting, bunkers, and Cloak Banshees. Cloak Banshees auto-win against most 1 base all ins right off the bat.
im confident that the future of TvP will be heavily bio-less compositions with upgraded mech hellion/tank with ghosts and maybe 2-3 thors (because their damage output is so high, they are weak to feedback but if you just have 1-2 and they get feedbacked who cares repair them between fights)
ghosts heavily counter the two counters to mech. stalkers and immortals. because stalkers have 80 health and 80 shields EMP can cause alot of wreck for stalker compositions.
A protoss can attempt to go 200food of stalkers and blink around the map avoiding the mech attacking the terran everywhere, but by this stage of the game the terran will be 3/3 mech vs 3/3/3 stalkers and stalkers only gain +1 attack per upgrade, where as thors and tanks get tons more damage per upgrade. Heck 30 upgraded hellions with their splash also probably will not fare too badly against 30 stalkers considering the splash of hellions combined with tanks and then thors.
against blink stalkers a terran wants to keep his tanks unsieged. Infact a terran pretty much never wants to siege his tanks until the end of the final battle while doing that final death-siege-push. unsieged tanks have 7range and deal very respectable damage and shred stalkers all on their own. upgraded stalkers will lose to unsieged tanks/hellions easily considering the splash of the hellions, the low damage of stalkers, and the high damage of tanks
and honestly when the protoss has zealots in his mix, its even more important to not siege up your tanks because their high damage and 7range combined with blue hellion splash quickly deals with the zealots and then after that unsieged tanks shred the stalkers badly
tanks dont even need to siege up to beat stalkers. if a terran plays like this the mobility of blink is not too much of an advantage considering stalkers are so piss-weak against tank/hellion and tanks move as fast as unstimmed bio
the protoss can blink everywhere and do some damage, but as long as the terran is spread nicely his slow moving thors and tanks with 7range will eventually reach the area and shred the stalkers and the toss will lose more than the terran
the biggest counter to mech on paper for toss is IMMORTALS, assuming the terran doesnt get ghosts. archons are very tanky against hellions and tanks and thors which is the reason a terran needs a few ghosts if the protoss is going for lots of immortals. other than that, the protoss needs mothership/carriers/archons/collossi/immortal mix to really beat endgame mech of terran and terran can match that and compete against that if he adds in upgraded vikings / bc's
On May 18 2012 05:15 roymarthyup wrote: im confident that the future of TvP will be heavily bio-less compositions with upgraded mech hellion/tank with ghosts and maybe 2-3 thors (because their damage output is so high, they are weak to feedback but if you just have 1-2 and they get feedbacked who cares repair them between fights)
ghosts heavily counter the two counters to mech. stalkers and immortals. because stalkers have 80 health and 80 shields EMP can cause alot of wreck for stalker compositions.
A protoss can attempt to go 200food of stalkers and blink around the map avoiding the mech attacking the terran everywhere, but by this stage of the game the terran will be 3/3 mech vs 3/3/3 stalkers and stalkers only gain +1 attack per upgrade, where as thors and tanks get tons more damage per upgrade. Heck 30 upgraded hellions with their splash also probably will not fare too badly against 30 stalkers considering the splash of hellions combined with tanks and then thors.
against blink stalkers a terran wants to keep his tanks unsieged. Infact a terran pretty much never wants to siege his tanks until the end of the final battle while doing that final death-siege-push. unsieged tanks have 7range and deal very respectable damage and shred stalkers all on their own. upgraded stalkers will lose to unsieged tanks/hellions easily considering the splash of the hellions, the low damage of stalkers, and the high damage of tanks
and honestly when the protoss has zealots in his mix, its even more important to not siege up your tanks because their high damage and 7range combined with blue hellion splash quickly deals with the zealots and then after that unsieged tanks shred the stalkers badly
tanks dont even need to siege up to beat stalkers. if a terran plays like this the mobility of blink is not too much of an advantage considering stalkers are so piss-weak against tank/hellion and tanks move as fast as unstimmed bio
the protoss can blink everywhere and do some damage, but as long as the terran is spread nicely his slow moving thors and tanks with 7range will eventually reach the area and shred the stalkers and the toss will lose more than the terran
the biggest counter to mech on paper for toss is IMMORTALS, assuming the terran doesnt get ghosts. archons are very tanky against hellions and tanks and thors which is the reason a terran needs a few ghosts if the protoss is going for lots of immortals. other than that, the protoss needs mothership/carriers/archons/collossi/immortal mix to really beat endgame mech of terran and terran can match that and compete against that if he adds in upgraded vikings / bc's
Yo, can we just abolish the word Counter in this thread altogether? It does nothing for discussion and just avoids explaining why something is good/bad.
On May 18 2012 04:33 saaaa wrote: How do you defend one base attacks from the protoss?
go siege+tanks before thor?
It depends on you're opening. With the Cloak Banshee opening, just scouting, bunkers, and Cloak Banshees. Cloak Banshees auto-win against most 1 base all ins right off the bat.
What opening is best for TvP?
I do a 1Rax Fe with Fast Depot-Wall in 1/1/1 Cloak Banshee but i feel it's not the best opening because the most 1base attacks are hard to hold (but possible with instant tanks if the 1base is scouted).
saaaa I don't think that's a safe opening. Opening 1rax cc makes you vulnerable to certain things that are usually stopped easily with marines and bunkers, but you won't have the marine count to deal with them. For example if your opponent goes blink all-in you'll just lose 100% of the time.
I need to try it out more before I can say it's safe, but I like the opening I used in the rep I posted above. Standard gas timing fact hellion cc armory gas techlab thor port banshee cloak thor (reactor on rax is in there somewhere). I'm delaying my cc to get the hellion out so that I can scout everything really well. Getting gas and the fact makes my opponent think it's not a FE build, so they aren't likely to choose a build that can really take advantage of my small unit count. If they try to, I'll scout it with hellion. The first thor comes out to hold any delayed aggression or early 2base aggression. The banshee comes out as is with all proper lyyna play for harass or defense, as is needed. The second thor is delayed with the port, but that's ok since the first one can't die if you repair it. From there it's standard lyyna play.
Anyone looking for a cool little opening without Banshees, here's something I have been working on - 1/1 Upgrade Mech opening. It's greedy but it can be safe to anything with good scouting and preparation (and quick mass repairing).
I'm high master mech terran and I just wanted to say that not getting ghosts in TvP is suicide, and that you can indeed have 2 armories and go ghosts, at least I always do.
On May 19 2012 19:40 saaaa wrote: but i like the fast cloak banshee because it's sometimes a really nice surprise fo the protoss for killing all his probes
Yeah, that's actually sort of why I don't like it right now - let me explain. I just wanted to learn how all the Mech units operate in the match up really well, get a really good feeling for them, and win or lose the game based on my ability to use those units.
I do think using the Startport, at least at some point, is better than forgoing it all together. It compliments Mech too well to not be worth it, and the eventual BC/Raven transition is the strongest army you can put together. But I just didn't want the Banshees (especially Cloak Banshee openings) skewing the results of my Mech army vs Protoss, if that makes sense?
On May 19 2012 15:27 ZjiublingZ wrote: Anyone looking for a cool little opening without Banshees, here's something I have been working on - 1/1 Upgrade Mech opening. It's greedy but it can be safe to anything with good scouting and preparation (and quick mass repairing).
thanks! awesome :D It looks like it's basically a cloak banshee opening just without the banshees. Instead you will have +1 armor at 9:20, which is when (or slightly after? or during?) a 6 gate attack hits. You get a stronger deathball faster, but do you think it's really worth sacrificing the banshees to keep protoss at home? Or maybe getting more tanks faster instead of 2 armories would allow you to get a third faster, and thus max out faster to sort of "make up" for the slower upgrades? Or do all these options work, and it's just preference?
honestly im torn between what opening to use, haha (maybe i should learn 2 for different kinds of maps?)
the ones i've been using so far is the 3-4 factory (i do 3 usually) fact gorapadong build ( reactor barracks expand into siege tanks + 2 reactor hellions, into Armory/third-base and starport or ghost academy depending on protoss' tech)
and the cloak banshee opening
lynna shows this different build in his second TvP video I wonder what the build is? Looks like reactor barracks expand into fact into fact, with tech lab first then reactor asap
Though I didn't quite understand why lynna got BFH instead of siege mode first in that replay
I also know gfever (high master KR) has had moderate success with this kind of ebay expand build (places ~3 turrets to zone out void rays and ideally warp prisms as well), going straight to siegetank/hellion without getting thors first.
Then of course there is also the reactor hellion expand.
I don't quite understand the pros/cons of each build; are some of these outdated? are some of these only good on some maps? does it not really matter? I know i might be asking a lot, but some basic help would be appreciated. I'm a bit stumped.
(Oh, apparently there is also a build where you can go reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand; the first 2 expansions are in corners of the map, while the third one takes your natural, and it "works" at high master KR
There's also the marauder/hellion expand+pressure opening into marine/tank/banshee push into +2armor/2PDD/marine-thor-banshee push with any left over tanks which also works at high master KR)
On May 19 2012 19:40 saaaa wrote: but i like the fast cloak banshee because it's sometimes a really nice surprise fo the protoss for killing all his probes
Yeah, that's actually sort of why I don't like it right now - let me explain. I just wanted to learn how all the Mech units operate in the match up really well, get a really good feeling for them, and win or lose the game based on my ability to use those units.
I do think using the Startport, at least at some point, is better than forgoing it all together. It compliments Mech too well to not be worth it, and the eventual BC/Raven transition is the strongest army you can put together. But I just didn't want the Banshees (especially Cloak Banshee openings) skewing the results of my Mech army vs Protoss, if that makes sense?
That makes sense Yeah. Your opening looks interesting. Hm, but is the bunker up in time for a 1 stalk 1 zeal poke?
On May 19 2012 15:27 ZjiublingZ wrote: Anyone looking for a cool little opening without Banshees, here's something I have been working on - 1/1 Upgrade Mech opening. It's greedy but it can be safe to anything with good scouting and preparation (and quick mass repairing).
thanks! awesome :D It looks like it's basically a cloak banshee opening just without the banshees. Instead you will have +1 armor at 9:20, which is when (or slightly after? or during?) a 6 gate attack hits. You get a stronger deathball faster, but do you think it's really worth sacrificing the banshees to keep protoss at home? Or maybe getting more tanks faster instead of 2 armories would allow you to get a third faster, and thus max out faster to sort of "make up" for the slower upgrades? Or do all these options work, and it's just preference?
honestly im torn between what opening to use, haha (maybe i should learn 2 for different kinds of maps?)
the ones i've been using so far is the 3-4 factory (i do 3 usually) fact gorapadong build ( reactor barracks expand into siege tanks + 2 reactor hellions, into Armory/third-base and starport or ghost academy depending on protoss' tech)
and the cloak banshee opening
lynna shows this different build in his second TvP video I wonder what the build is? Looks like reactor barracks expand into fact into fact, with tech lab first then reactor asap
Though I didn't quite understand why lynna got BFH instead of siege mode first in that replay
I also know gfever (high master KR) has had moderate success with this kind of ebay expand build (places ~3 turrets to zone out void rays and ideally warp prisms as well), going straight to siegetank/hellion without getting thors first.
Then of course there is also the reactor hellion expand.
I don't quite understand the pros/cons of each build; are some of these outdated? are some of these only good on some maps? does it not really matter? I know i might be asking a lot, but some basic help would be appreciated. I'm a bit stumped.
(Oh, apparently there is also a build where you can go reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand; the first 2 expansions are in corners of the map, while the third one takes your natural, and it "works" at high master KR
There's also the marauder/hellion expand+pressure opening into marine/tank/banshee push into +2armor/2PDD/marine-thor-banshee push with any left over tanks which also works at high master KR)
Personally im using thorzain's one (from TSL3). Basically a naked rax - tl fact - tank - CC around 5 30.
About the 1 rax react expo into 2 fact,thats basically an outdated build. Quite strong before BFH nerf and when protoss were getting late expo, but harder to do now.
Basically all these builds have a different balance between economy, harass ability, safety, and follow-up possibilities.
Basically, 111 expo (cloakshee, hellion drop, etc) are very safe and/or agressive, but delay eco really hard
1 rax reactor expo, 1 rax expo, etc, are eco-friendly, but are not very safe, and do not allows to put pressure really early
Reactor hellion build allows for a good economy and harassment, but isnt really safe (really low unit count) and the follow-up depends of your hellion's control
the thorzain's opening im using is relatively safe and eco-friendly, but do not allows to harass
I think I understand some of the basics of this now. When I first tried mech I failed all the time since I did not have enough tanks and did not get ghosts in time. Now I do not even bother to get vikings until late mid-game and instead prioritize to get my tank and ghost count up. Tank + EMP is really good.
That said the Protoss army has just as much power, better mobility and much faster remax. So TvP is still stacked in Protoss favor in the late game. Still until Blizzard fixes this mech is the least bad choice in TvP.
On May 21 2012 22:00 Lyyna wrote: Update of the guide, added a lot of things. TvP lategame , and TvZ vod's delayed due to some encoding problems (probably rdy for tomorrow)
On May 19 2012 19:40 saaaa wrote: but i like the fast cloak banshee because it's sometimes a really nice surprise fo the protoss for killing all his probes
Yeah, that's actually sort of why I don't like it right now - let me explain. I just wanted to learn how all the Mech units operate in the match up really well, get a really good feeling for them, and win or lose the game based on my ability to use those units.
I do think using the Startport, at least at some point, is better than forgoing it all together. It compliments Mech too well to not be worth it, and the eventual BC/Raven transition is the strongest army you can put together. But I just didn't want the Banshees (especially Cloak Banshee openings) skewing the results of my Mech army vs Protoss, if that makes sense?
That makes sense Yeah. Your opening looks interesting. Hm, but is the bunker up in time for a 1 stalk 1 zeal poke?
On May 19 2012 15:27 ZjiublingZ wrote: Anyone looking for a cool little opening without Banshees, here's something I have been working on - 1/1 Upgrade Mech opening. It's greedy but it can be safe to anything with good scouting and preparation (and quick mass repairing).
thanks! awesome :D It looks like it's basically a cloak banshee opening just without the banshees. Instead you will have +1 armor at 9:20, which is when (or slightly after? or during?) a 6 gate attack hits. You get a stronger deathball faster, but do you think it's really worth sacrificing the banshees to keep protoss at home? Or maybe getting more tanks faster instead of 2 armories would allow you to get a third faster, and thus max out faster to sort of "make up" for the slower upgrades? Or do all these options work, and it's just preference?
honestly im torn between what opening to use, haha (maybe i should learn 2 for different kinds of maps?)
the ones i've been using so far is the 3-4 factory (i do 3 usually) fact gorapadong build ( reactor barracks expand into siege tanks + 2 reactor hellions, into Armory/third-base and starport or ghost academy depending on protoss' tech)
and the cloak banshee opening
lynna shows this different build in his second TvP video I wonder what the build is? Looks like reactor barracks expand into fact into fact, with tech lab first then reactor asap
Though I didn't quite understand why lynna got BFH instead of siege mode first in that replay
I also know gfever (high master KR) has had moderate success with this kind of ebay expand build (places ~3 turrets to zone out void rays and ideally warp prisms as well), going straight to siegetank/hellion without getting thors first.
Then of course there is also the reactor hellion expand.
I don't quite understand the pros/cons of each build; are some of these outdated? are some of these only good on some maps? does it not really matter? I know i might be asking a lot, but some basic help would be appreciated. I'm a bit stumped.
(Oh, apparently there is also a build where you can go reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand; the first 2 expansions are in corners of the map, while the third one takes your natural, and it "works" at high master KR
There's also the marauder/hellion expand+pressure opening into marine/tank/banshee push into +2armor/2PDD/marine-thor-banshee push with any left over tanks which also works at high master KR)
Personally im using thorzain's one (from TSL3). Basically a naked rax - tl fact - tank - CC around 5 30.
About the 1 rax react expo into 2 fact,thats basically an outdated build. Quite strong before BFH nerf and when protoss were getting late expo, but harder to do now.
Basically all these builds have a different balance between economy, harass ability, safety, and follow-up possibilities.
Basically, 111 expo (cloakshee, hellion drop, etc) are very safe and/or agressive, but delay eco really hard
1 rax reactor expo, 1 rax expo, etc, are eco-friendly, but are not very safe, and do not allows to put pressure really early
Reactor hellion build allows for a good economy and harassment, but isnt really safe (really low unit count) and the follow-up depends of your hellion's control
the thorzain's opening im using is relatively safe and eco-friendly, but do not allows to harass
On May 21 2012 22:00 Lyyna wrote: Update of the guide, added a lot of things. TvP lategame , and TvZ vod's delayed due to some encoding problems (probably rdy for tomorrow)
On May 19 2012 19:40 saaaa wrote: but i like the fast cloak banshee because it's sometimes a really nice surprise fo the protoss for killing all his probes
Yeah, that's actually sort of why I don't like it right now - let me explain. I just wanted to learn how all the Mech units operate in the match up really well, get a really good feeling for them, and win or lose the game based on my ability to use those units.
I do think using the Startport, at least at some point, is better than forgoing it all together. It compliments Mech too well to not be worth it, and the eventual BC/Raven transition is the strongest army you can put together. But I just didn't want the Banshees (especially Cloak Banshee openings) skewing the results of my Mech army vs Protoss, if that makes sense?
That makes sense Yeah. Your opening looks interesting. Hm, but is the bunker up in time for a 1 stalk 1 zeal poke?
On May 19 2012 15:27 ZjiublingZ wrote: Anyone looking for a cool little opening without Banshees, here's something I have been working on - 1/1 Upgrade Mech opening. It's greedy but it can be safe to anything with good scouting and preparation (and quick mass repairing).
thanks! awesome :D It looks like it's basically a cloak banshee opening just without the banshees. Instead you will have +1 armor at 9:20, which is when (or slightly after? or during?) a 6 gate attack hits. You get a stronger deathball faster, but do you think it's really worth sacrificing the banshees to keep protoss at home? Or maybe getting more tanks faster instead of 2 armories would allow you to get a third faster, and thus max out faster to sort of "make up" for the slower upgrades? Or do all these options work, and it's just preference?
honestly im torn between what opening to use, haha (maybe i should learn 2 for different kinds of maps?)
the ones i've been using so far is the 3-4 factory (i do 3 usually) fact gorapadong build ( reactor barracks expand into siege tanks + 2 reactor hellions, into Armory/third-base and starport or ghost academy depending on protoss' tech)
and the cloak banshee opening
lynna shows this different build in his second TvP video I wonder what the build is? Looks like reactor barracks expand into fact into fact, with tech lab first then reactor asap
Though I didn't quite understand why lynna got BFH instead of siege mode first in that replay
I also know gfever (high master KR) has had moderate success with this kind of ebay expand build (places ~3 turrets to zone out void rays and ideally warp prisms as well), going straight to siegetank/hellion without getting thors first.
Then of course there is also the reactor hellion expand.
I don't quite understand the pros/cons of each build; are some of these outdated? are some of these only good on some maps? does it not really matter? I know i might be asking a lot, but some basic help would be appreciated. I'm a bit stumped.
(Oh, apparently there is also a build where you can go reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand; the first 2 expansions are in corners of the map, while the third one takes your natural, and it "works" at high master KR
There's also the marauder/hellion expand+pressure opening into marine/tank/banshee push into +2armor/2PDD/marine-thor-banshee push with any left over tanks which also works at high master KR)
Personally im using thorzain's one (from TSL3). Basically a naked rax - tl fact - tank - CC around 5 30.
About the 1 rax react expo into 2 fact,thats basically an outdated build. Quite strong before BFH nerf and when protoss were getting late expo, but harder to do now.
Basically all these builds have a different balance between economy, harass ability, safety, and follow-up possibilities.
Basically, 111 expo (cloakshee, hellion drop, etc) are very safe and/or agressive, but delay eco really hard
1 rax reactor expo, 1 rax expo, etc, are eco-friendly, but are not very safe, and do not allows to put pressure really early
Reactor hellion build allows for a good economy and harassment, but isnt really safe (really low unit count) and the follow-up depends of your hellion's control
the thorzain's opening im using is relatively safe and eco-friendly, but do not allows to harass
As usual, thank you for responding ! I did not understand well the strengths of each build.
This guide is amazing, but I was wondering if there was any sort of map specific strategies that you/someone could suggest? Since you had a Q/A added portion to the OP, I'm hoping maybe this could get answered by someone with some experience?
For example: On split maps, the super late game strategy for mech is the same as it would be for bio (turtle behind PF into mass BC/ghost - ie MVP vs Squirtle). I'm wondering if there is an advantage to going mech in the early game on easily split maps (daybreak, Metro, metal) over going bio. Since they'll both be heading to the same late game, + Show Spoiler +
I'm looking to play the late game of TvP, rather than have to end it early, and at this point I think the goal has to be to transition into that ghost/bc army
do you think mech gets to that late, late game easier and/or safer than with bio?
I dont really have any map specific strategy. Im the kind of guy who like to have "general" strats, that can work on every map, and with minimal variations/adaptations to the opponent.. Basically the main thing that changes depending of the map is where/how you do expand in the lategame, but ill adress that in the VOD about lategame decision making.
Well, basically bio and mech both have good points regardless of the map . But i still prefer mech if i want to go into lategame, considering your army, from the start, is built to destroy everything late in the game. Also you can get a scarier army (3/0 BC with 3/3 ghosts supports is cool. 2/2 BCs with 3/1 tanks/thors/hellions, ravens and ghosts support is unbeatable).
One huge problem I have when I play mech in TvP is when the Protoss poke the outskirts of my army and then back off, poke again etc. Basically he maneuvers around my army, toast a small part of it with collosus, then as I move some tanks forward and siege up, he moves back again, then attack the outskirts from another angle. Only a few of my tanks are in range at the same time while all of his Colossus are in range when he choses to attack a part of my army.
On May 27 2012 04:30 MockHamill wrote: One huge problem I have when I play mech in TvP is when the Protoss poke the outskirts of my army and then back off, poke again etc. Basically he maneuvers around my army, toast a small part of it with collosus, then as I move some tanks forward and siege up, he moves back again, then attack the outskirts from another angle. Only a few of my tanks are in range at the same time while all of his Colossus are in range when he choses to attack a part of my army.
Anyone have a solution to this?
I think you may just be moving too slowly. If he's that colossi heavy, you should probably have a good number of banshee/viking/BC anyways, to stop him from being able to poke in so effectively, and to prevent him from just regenerating his shields. It should allow you to be able to move your army faster as well, since, with scans, you should be able to see how far away his army is, and be able to siege up in time without having to leap frog slowly. Reason being it means the rest of his [gateway] army will be smaller, and since you already have air units to deal with the colossi, your tanks aren't threatened as much. I may be wrong tho
On May 26 2012 06:59 saaaa wrote: What openings do you prefer and use?
these days i'm starting again to 111 expo.definitely the safest possible thing. but well,basically every build is ok as long as you dont commit too hard to bio (for example, i used to open a lot with 2 rax, 1 year ago, going into marauder tank into mech
On May 27 2012 04:30 MockHamill wrote: One huge problem I have when I play mech in TvP is when the Protoss poke the outskirts of my army and then back off, poke again etc. Basically he maneuvers around my army, toast a small part of it with collosus, then as I move some tanks forward and siege up, he moves back again, then attack the outskirts from another angle. Only a few of my tanks are in range at the same time while all of his Colossus are in range when he choses to attack a part of my army.
Anyone have a solution to this?
There is a few "keys" things to punish it -Sensor towers : that's one of the point of staying in defense (so, in range of these ) : you can see where and when he'll try to poke, so you can move everything accordingly
-Ghosts : if he gets emp'd every time he moves too close,he'll have to be careful to not take "definitive" damage, and in terms of "trading damage", if he doesn't have shields,you win -Tanks : high range high damage ,enough said i guess -Strike cannons : Surprisingly, yeah, its a good antipoke ability as you can sometimes trap some units versus a non-careful/greedy protoss -Air : with 4-5 Banshees,you can litterally desintegrate any colossus that come too close (especially since he'll not see these coming, imba cloak). Once you start to add BCs...i won countless times because my opponent tried to do some super gosu high micro lvl (rofl) poke, only to get his 8 colossus EMP'd/Yamato'd to death in seconds
It is basically a zealot Stalker Sentry Push as u can see here (http://drop.sc/189193)
Please help me
Thanks in advance
LukasG
Basically,the problem is the build, and your bunker placement. 1 rax FE into mech means you only have marine for a long times especially if you rush cloakshee after it, and also, your bunker placement is good vZ (avoid surround) but not vP (easier for him to forcefield,less surface to repair)
What a great post! Lots of information and an interesting stand-point considering the general consensus that is that Terran loses lategame vs Toss, and should finish it midgame or keep harassing.
It is basically a zealot Stalker Sentry Push as u can see here (http://drop.sc/189193)
Please help me
Thanks in advance
LukasG
Basically,the problem is the build, and your bunker placement. 1 rax FE into mech means you only have marine for a long times especially if you rush cloakshee after it, and also, your bunker placement is good vZ (avoid surround) but not vP (easier for him to forcefield,less surface to repair)
I'm really not sure why people think that a 1 Rax FE into tech is even remotely doable vs Protoss. Literally ANY pressure will kill you outright.
It's better if you just open with 1/1/1 expand or Reactor Expand. The latter is somewhat weak to Blink allins, but if you control/scout properly you can hold them. You certainly don't just die like you do with a 1 Rax FE into tech.
It is basically a zealot Stalker Sentry Push as u can see here (http://drop.sc/189193)
Please help me
Thanks in advance
LukasG
Basically,the problem is the build, and your bunker placement. 1 rax FE into mech means you only have marine for a long times especially if you rush cloakshee after it, and also, your bunker placement is good vZ (avoid surround) but not vP (easier for him to forcefield,less surface to repair)
I'm really not sure why people think that a 1 Rax FE into tech is even remotely doable vs Protoss. Literally ANY pressure will kill you outright.
its doable on some maps, the "problem" is basically to be able to hide if you're going mech or bio. but well, some pros sometimes do 1 rax FE into cloakshee but that requires good simcity/scouting deny/specific maps
On June 01 2012 15:49 LukasG wrote: In the replays i saw u get a lot of thors, why not tanks instead?
because you can hold all kinds of different attacks with thors much easier. They have a high hp and you can mass repair them really easy. In fact, they are way stronger in small numbers than tanks.
The Thors in TvP mech are only for Observersniping, surviving the early midgame against all kind of early all-ins and to tank damage after that but the key damage dealer unit are tanks.
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
That was awesome. It proves my own theory that you need a health mix of thors and tanks to do well vs Protoss. I loved the ghosts and raven/banshee mix in there as well.
Mech TvP definitely takes a good 5-unit combo and good micro to use them all, well.
Basically, im getting more thors these days because -i realized that stopping thors at 3 early game makes hard to hold some timings (especially 2 bases allin,for example "early" immortals/chargelots push). Also, more early thors allows to do some pushes to punish a overgreedy/too hard teching protoss (for example a toss who try to get an early 3rd + robo + phenix out of few gateways)
-Basically, in direct fights, having a 4-8 thors wall is really good. 6 seems to be a magic number here.
-Good "all-purpose" units , so having a good amount of these is really good (in fact,a bit like marines. good vs nearly everything) . Tanks are here for a special role (dealing damage, and "zoning" the protoss army).
-As saaa said, they're stronger in small numbers than tanks. 4 thors can handle a good amount of stuff,especially with repair,while, let's say, 8 tanks, can easily get taken out
@Nighmarjoo : im at school right now so cant watch replays,but sounds interesting :p
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Ok I give up on mech. I thought it would be easier than bio but my winrate vs Protoss went down from 48% when going bioAir to 25% when going mech.
Mech may be powerful but it is so unforgiving compared to bio. If you make a single mistake with mech you lost the game. With bio you can come back from mistakes plus if you transition into bio/BC late game you can still compete with Protoss late game power.
On June 03 2012 00:15 MockHamill wrote: Ok I give up on mech. I thought it would be easier than bio but my winrate vs Protoss went down from 48% when going bioAir to 25% when going mech.
Mech may be powerful but it is so unforgiving compared to bio. If you make a single mistake with mech you lost the game. With bio you can come back from mistakes plus if you transition into bio/BC late game you can still compete with Protoss late game power.
This thread is not your journal. If you didn't come here to say anything that matters to anybody but you, why did you post anything at all?
Nobody cares if you're not playing mech anymore. If you don't have the patience or you're just straight up not good enough, that's your problem.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
I really like this build, but I'm struggling against pushes at around the 16min mark that consist of chargelot immortal with a few stackers and archons mixed in. We usually trade evenly, but then my opponent just warps in another round of zealots and I die. I go with the ghost mech and a usually quite successful at all other stages of the game apart from just then. Any advice?
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
No, but it's not reliable to rely on a big amount of kills with your blueflame helions, because they are really easy to stop for the P if he or she knows what to do against them.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 03 2012 00:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 02 2012 22:15 Snowbear wrote:
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
Bio is possible without drops or without probekills.
Mech is not possible, unless you get ahead (like mass probekills). Protoss has too much hardcounters (immortal, blinkstalker, feedback). I checked lynna's reps, and he wins when: - he gets a GUHE lead because of harass. - he turtles and brings his opponent into a coma.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 03 2012 00:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 02 2012 22:15 Snowbear wrote:
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
Bio is possible without drops or without probekills.
Mech is not possible, unless you get ahead (like mass probekills). Protoss has too much hardcounters (immortal, blinkstalker, feedback). I checked lynna's reps, and he wins when: - he gets a GUHE lead because of harass. - he turtles and brings his opponent into a coma.
You didn't watch the replays if you think that's the only way he wins games.
By the way, one of the strengths of mech compared to bio in this matchup is that when mech gets ahead, it will roll with the advantage until victory, while bio can still lose easily to one storm or over/undermaking vikings vs colossi. Mech will almost always win when it has that advantage.
I'm not saying mech is viable at the highest levels, but if it's not, it isn't because the unit composition is inferior. It's because a REALLY good protoss player will know just how to utilize blink stalkers and warp prisms to stall the mech player while they get a huge economic lead themselves and then just roll over the terran, but that requires a lot of skill to do and it is not easy. The only other way to win is when the mech player messes up, which is the same as with any other unit composition.
On June 03 2012 00:30 kollin wrote: I really like this build, but I'm struggling against pushes at around the 16min mark that consist of chargelot immortal with a few stackers and archons mixed in. We usually trade evenly, but then my opponent just warps in another round of zealots and I die. I go with the ghost mech and a usually quite successful at all other stages of the game apart from just then. Any advice?
Usually, just stay behind a wall , basically go heavier on thors than tanks, and makes obs sniping a priority (if you see he only has 1 obs..worth sacrificing a thor to do so). But some replays would be good as this can be done in a lot of differents ways
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 03 2012 00:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 02 2012 22:15 Snowbear wrote:
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
Bio is possible without drops or without probekills.
Mech is not possible, unless you get ahead (like mass probekills). Protoss has too much hardcounters (immortal, blinkstalker, feedback). I checked lynna's reps, and he wins when: - he gets a GUHE lead because of harass. - he turtles and brings his opponent into a coma.
And basically bio wins when.. -You get a big lead early/midgame (which was directly admitted by blizzard and most terrans,even pro - so if you say this is wrong, you should make a guide about your own TvP biostyle as well, as you'll become terran' savior) -Getting the protoss out of position cuz' he's sleeping cuz u're walking through the whole map since 20 minutes ...and even with that you can often get fucked
Yes,i'm exagerating, but you get my point ? You're pointing things that applies to bio as well. Saying that mech is ompossible without mass probekills is stupid and shows that you didn't even try to grab some infos about it. I win with mech often with 0 probes kills in TvP . . and in fact in TvZ as well.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 03 2012 00:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 02 2012 22:15 Snowbear wrote:
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
Bio is possible without drops or without probekills.
Mech is not possible, unless you get ahead (like mass probekills). Protoss has too much hardcounters (immortal, blinkstalker, feedback). I checked lynna's reps, and he wins when: - he gets a GUHE lead because of harass. - he turtles and brings his opponent into a coma.
Never seen someone so wrong....If you get to late game with mech you win. It doesn't matter what the other guy is doing as long you don't get vortexed. You can check it yourself split half map with your protoss buddie mass up and let him do frontal attacks. He will never ever win if you play correctly. The only way to LOSE with mech is if he allins you or he does multi-attacks and expands behind that.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 03 2012 00:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 02 2012 22:15 Snowbear wrote:
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Its TvP bio exactly reversed, if thats easier to think about for people who dont really get it.
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
Bio is possible without drops or without probekills.
Mech is not possible, unless you get ahead (like mass probekills). Protoss has too much hardcounters (immortal, blinkstalker, feedback). I checked lynna's reps, and he wins when: - he gets a GUHE lead because of harass. - he turtles and brings his opponent into a coma.
Never seen someone so wrong....If you get to late game with mech you win. It doesn't matter what the other guy is doing as long you don't get vortexed. You can check it yourself split half map with your protoss buddie mass up and let him do frontal attacks. He will never ever win if you play correctly. The only way to LOSE with mech is if he allins you or he does multi-attacks and expands behind that.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 03 2012 00:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 02 2012 22:15 Snowbear wrote:
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
Bio is possible without drops or without probekills.
Mech is not possible, unless you get ahead (like mass probekills). Protoss has too much hardcounters (immortal, blinkstalker, feedback). I checked lynna's reps, and he wins when: - he gets a GUHE lead because of harass. - he turtles and brings his opponent into a coma.
Never seen someone so wrong....If you get to late game with mech you win. It doesn't matter what the other guy is doing as long you don't get vortexed. You can check it yourself split half map with your protoss buddie mass up and let him do frontal attacks. He will never ever win if you play correctly. The only way to LOSE with mech is if he allins you or he does multi-attacks and expands behind that.
Yes, if you get to late game with mech you win, that's why every pro is going mech and tries to get to the lategame, so he can grab his win... oh wait.
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
Right guys, if you kill a SINGLE PROBE with harass, you are only winning because you harassed with your mech build. Everyone knows that if you harass it's basically cheating.
On June 03 2012 00:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 02 2012 22:15 Snowbear wrote:
On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote: Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
You need a lot more than 15 probe kills to say you won the game.
Newsflash: 15 probes = 750 minerals lost + those 15 probes would be mining if they weren't dead = HUGE advantage! He played with a huge advantage, and yes, then I can even kill mc and squirtle with mech.
Imagine those 15 probes wouldn't have died: the toss could expand and his eco would've been much better.
Right, but how is that any different than dropping with bio? It's like you're saying 'well, if the Terran didn't drop and snipe the Protoss' Robo, the Protoss would have had enough Colossi out to melt his bioball so bio is clearly not viable!' Harassment is part of mech, just like drops are a part of bio. You don't RELY on the drops doing damage just as you don't RELY on the harass doing damage with mech. If you want, I can provide you with plenty of mech tvp replays where I won despite having invested in harassment and having it fail horribly.
Bio is possible without drops or without probekills.
Mech is not possible, unless you get ahead (like mass probekills). Protoss has too much hardcounters (immortal, blinkstalker, feedback). I checked lynna's reps, and he wins when: - he gets a GUHE lead because of harass. - he turtles and brings his opponent into a coma.
Never seen someone so wrong....If you get to late game with mech you win. It doesn't matter what the other guy is doing as long you don't get vortexed. You can check it yourself split half map with your protoss buddie mass up and let him do frontal attacks. He will never ever win if you play correctly. The only way to LOSE with mech is if he allins you or he does multi-attacks and expands behind that.
Yes, if you get to late game with mech you win, that's why every pro is going mech and tries to get to the lategame, so he can grab his win... oh wait.
Honestly guy,i don't mind talking about my style , his viability,etc, but if your whole argumentations rely on humoristic/ironics statements and false ideas/"facts" that proves you didn't watch any replay (and which , especially for the "need to get an early advantage" thing, apply to bio as well. Blizz and community approved yo), there is some general thread about TvP mech viability for you to post that kind of thing...
Went 4-2 in ladder and 0-1 in customs with it. One loss was due to completely forgetting Ghosts and losing to a 3robo immortal all-in as result. Another was due to attempting to fix a hotkey error when he happened to attack, so I couldn't position everything properly or micro well. The third loss was my being too aggressive with my army.
Wow thanks alot of the reps Nightmarjoo, i had a really difficoult time in dealing with 3 gate pressure with 1 rax FE, but you just need to make a 2nd bunker and have scvs to repair while teching to cloackshee/thor
I'm basically in a little Sc2 break, due to -Invested too much in the game during 2 years for relatively poor results (aka failing to qualify in GM last season even while being top 20 master the right day >>) -Balance issues (Plat-skilled protoss in GM ... TvZ becoming a pain in the ass...) -Diablo 3 being an awesome game, "drained" too much of my skills to allows me to go back easily on sc2
Due to all of this, i feel too much stress and not enough fun on SC2 these days, ending up in me not playing a lot last season, and i'll probably continuing this break for this one as well.
What does this mean for me? I know that the main reason i'm lacking of motivation these days is the fact i always tried to do my best and win only with my own efforts (especially by creating all my builds and strats from scratch). The problem of this is that i put too much pressure on myself, constantly, since 2 years, so need that "rest time" to let the pressure goes down, allowing myself to come back at my best!
What does this mean for the guide? Basically, The main things going to change are : -Asking me stuff : Well, since i'm not in game these days, it's hard to do it on battlenet. So basically, for every question, i suggest you to do it on facebook, pm on tl, or here in the topic. -My Replays : Well,i'll of course have hard time updating it with replays of myself, but that isn't a problem since there is already a lot of replays uploaded. -Others people replays: Well, to keep the guide up-to-date with "fresh" stuff, i'll do something simple : if you think you have an interesting replay of mech (vP to stay "in" the topic), submit it to me via tl's pm. If i think the replay is good enough,i'll -Put it in the replay section with a short description if it's a good game without any big "flaws" and that can be studied -Do a written analysis of it if the replay shows some errors with the style, allowing people to see "common" errors when it's not me who is playing the style, making it easier to understand
Sorry again for the lack of update/news these days, and sorry for people i might disappoint with this post but well, i hope you'll understand that after stressing yourself so much to do your best for so long,you need to eliminate all that pressure, and the only way here is to take a break. And i'll come back, and mech them cry!
Thanks for the reading, and don't worry, as i said,i'll not let the guide die. but to do so,i'll need your help, and your replays! So awake, Mech players,and show to all these protoss that they should still fear what a terran can do after 15 minutes in a game ! Mech them cry ! And then show it to the world! *evil laugh*
On June 21 2012 09:20 Lyyna wrote: Hi guys,some news of myself
I'm basically in a little Sc2 break, due to -Invested too much in the game during 2 years for relatively poor results (aka failing to qualify in GM last season even while being top 20 master the right day >>) -Balance issues (Plat-skilled protoss in GM ... TvZ becoming a pain in the ass...) -Diablo 3 being an awesome game, "drained" too much of my skills to allows me to go back easily on sc2
Due to all of this, i feel too much stress and not enough fun on SC2 these days, ending up in me not playing a lot last season, and i'll probably continuing this break for this one as well.
What does this mean for me? I know that the main reason i'm lacking of motivation these days is the fact i always tried to do my best and win only with my own efforts (especially by creating all my builds and strats from scratch). The problem of this is that i put too much pressure on myself, constantly, since 2 years, so need that "rest time" to let the pressure goes down, allowing myself to come back at my best!
What does this mean for the guide? Basically, The main things going to change are : -Asking me stuff : Well, since i'm not in game these days, it's hard to do it on battlenet. So basically, for every question, i suggest you to do it on facebook, pm on tl, or here in the topic. -My Replays : Well,i'll of course have hard time updating it with replays of myself, but that isn't a problem since there is already a lot of replays uploaded. -Others people replays: Well, to keep the guide up-to-date with "fresh" stuff, i'll do something simple : if you think you have an interesting replay of mech (vP to stay "in" the topic), submit it to me via tl's pm. If i think the replay is good enough,i'll -Put it in the replay section with a short description if it's a good game without any big "flaws" and that can be studied -Do a written analysis of it if the replay shows some errors with the style, allowing people to see "common" errors when it's not me who is playing the style, making it easier to understand
Sorry again for the lack of update/news these days, and sorry for people i might disappoint with this post but well, i hope you'll understand that after stressing yourself so much to do your best for so long,you need to eliminate all that pressure, and the only way here is to take a break. And i'll come back, and mech them cry!
Thanks for the reading, and don't worry, as i said,i'll not let the guide die. but to do so,i'll need your help, and your replays! So awake, Mech players,and show to all these protoss that they should still fear what a terran can do after 15 minutes in a game ! Mech them cry ! And then show it to the world! *evil laugh*
Cheer up. You're ahead of everyone else in mech terran, so when HoTs comes out you're going to be unstoppable.
On June 21 2012 09:20 Lyyna wrote: Hi guys,some news of myself
I'm basically in a little Sc2 break, due to -Invested too much in the game during 2 years for relatively poor results (aka failing to qualify in GM last season even while being top 20 master the right day >>) -Balance issues (Plat-skilled protoss in GM ... TvZ becoming a pain in the ass...) -Diablo 3 being an awesome game, "drained" too much of my skills to allows me to go back easily on sc2
Due to all of this, i feel too much stress and not enough fun on SC2 these days, ending up in me not playing a lot last season, and i'll probably continuing this break for this one as well.
What does this mean for me? I know that the main reason i'm lacking of motivation these days is the fact i always tried to do my best and win only with my own efforts (especially by creating all my builds and strats from scratch). The problem of this is that i put too much pressure on myself, constantly, since 2 years, so need that "rest time" to let the pressure goes down, allowing myself to come back at my best!
What does this mean for the guide? Basically, The main things going to change are : -Asking me stuff : Well, since i'm not in game these days, it's hard to do it on battlenet. So basically, for every question, i suggest you to do it on facebook, pm on tl, or here in the topic. -My Replays : Well,i'll of course have hard time updating it with replays of myself, but that isn't a problem since there is already a lot of replays uploaded. -Others people replays: Well, to keep the guide up-to-date with "fresh" stuff, i'll do something simple : if you think you have an interesting replay of mech (vP to stay "in" the topic), submit it to me via tl's pm. If i think the replay is good enough,i'll -Put it in the replay section with a short description if it's a good game without any big "flaws" and that can be studied -Do a written analysis of it if the replay shows some errors with the style, allowing people to see "common" errors when it's not me who is playing the style, making it easier to understand
Sorry again for the lack of update/news these days, and sorry for people i might disappoint with this post but well, i hope you'll understand that after stressing yourself so much to do your best for so long,you need to eliminate all that pressure, and the only way here is to take a break. And i'll come back, and mech them cry!
Thanks for the reading, and don't worry, as i said,i'll not let the guide die. but to do so,i'll need your help, and your replays! So awake, Mech players,and show to all these protoss that they should still fear what a terran can do after 15 minutes in a game ! Mech them cry ! And then show it to the world! *evil laugh*
Cheer up. You're ahead of everyone else in mech terran, so when HoTs comes out you're going to be unstoppable.
thanks ^^ Well, i don't think HOTS is going to improve mech overall . . .
-Battlehellion is cool -Mines is a good idea,the problem is that,well, too much time to detonate,taking factory's production time, costing supply... -Warhound is basically the same thing as the tank, except the tank can do more damage to more targets while warhound is basically useless versus armoured-non mech stuff (hi zerg, hi marauder). So yeah, a mobile tank which is useless in 1.5 (zerg,and vT bio) matchups, and dont have the advantage of out-ranging every other units in the game
So cool ideas , but basically doesn't solve any issues of the race (or of mech), in fact these new stuff are just exactly doing what our actual stuff is doing (warhound) or doing new stuff but in a terrible way (both warhound and mine).
And the worst thing is when you look at other's races new stuff, basically their new units are taking care of current's races issues, and are fucking insane versus mech.
So, i don't know .. i hope they change a lot of stuff before HOTS come out, else terran will be over
Sucks to hear you lost your passion/drive a bit. I can understand very well that working on something so extensive and getting results that don't compensate for it is very frustrating.
Hope you'll come back stronger and more powerfull then ever before.
One issue I had when going mech TvP is that the toss would be able to keep me contained on two base, especially on maps where colossus can cliff harass my main. I find it difficult to leap frog against protoss armies because it's (1) very slow and (2) you can't defend both your nat and your main cliff at the same time while trying to get a third. And it's not like you can punish him for leaving his colossus out by themselves because he has both forcefields and the more mobile army. In addition, if your nat ramp has a narrow choke, it's actually dangerous to leap frog since your army can get long...
On June 22 2012 01:01 happyft wrote: One issue I had when going mech TvP is that the toss would be able to keep me contained on two base, especially on maps where colossus can cliff harass my main. I find it difficult to leap frog against protoss armies because it's (1) very slow and (2) you can't defend both your nat and your main cliff at the same time while trying to get a third. And it's not like you can punish him for leaving his colossus out by themselves because he has both forcefields and the more mobile army. In addition, if your nat ramp has a narrow choke, it's actually dangerous to leap frog since your army can get long...
Any suggestions?
Use your bancheeze to harass his colo when he tries to poke. Scout for 2base timings so you can build tanks if he is not doing a 2base colo timing build your tanks when your 3rd is starting you only need 1 tank in the early game. Dump rest of your res on thors,air,hellions,upgrades. Keep some bancheeze home so you can stop his harass and try to slip hellions or bancheeze to harass his base because he can't have his army on 2 places to defend your harass which is more powerfull than his and if he tries to split army just box yours and kill his army on your nat.
Lyyna I'm sry to hear that in your honor i will give some of my mech replays and try to keep the thread alive till you come back.
While I had a lot of success at first (end of season games) with 1rax cc gasgas opening I found it to be weak at the start of this season (people cheesing a lot to quickly get back to their normal points/mmr range) to a myriad of builds you don't have the time to adapt to. I consider myself to be pretty good at scouting; but when I'd scout the aggression (it would have initially looked like a FE build; either 1gas or 2gas with 2 on both geyser so I'd prepare to do the build) I just wouldn't be ble to get the defense necessary to hold. My method of adapting varied based on what their build was, but mostly came down to cutting all gas income and making more rax (I was on 2rax to begin with) and bunkers. I still think the build (the style + that opening of 1rax cc gasgas rax gasgas) is viable, especially in a tourney scenario where players are less likely to try to cheese, or if they show you nexus before scout leaves (still have to scout again to confirm not 4gate), but I don't consider it a safe build.
http://drop.sc/202270 http://drop.sc/202267 So these replays show what I plan to use as my standard build for now. I consider it safe against everything protoss can do (except blink all-in, which just beats all 1rax cc openings) with proper scouting and control. The top replay is my first attempt at it, and the bottom my second; I obviously haven't refined the midgame order yet.
Game 1 gets awkard quickly when I have my army not prepared for his attack (units not in right position relative to each other, tanks unsieged, etc). While part of that is my fault for not following his army movement the main problem imo was having late sensor towers.
Game 2 is partially a reaction to game 1. It looked to me like I can afford a fast second armory, but I get it too quickly this game. I don't think I like getting banshee before thor. I'll probably just deprioritize cloak. The awkwardness of this game stems partially from the awkwardness of the map; I have a hard time figuring out building placement on entombed. The other big mistake was in underestimating my scv count: I had way too many for a long time.
What I've learned recently that I can confidently share with you guys is that you can't constantly produce 3tanks, 1ghost, and 1 banshee on 3base gas income. With 6 fully saturated refineries you yield approximately 700 gas per 60 faster-sc2-game seconds. If you divide gas per sc2-time you find that the amount of gas per second to produce 3tank 1ghost 1banshee is 12.6, which exceeds the 3base gas income per second of 11.7. So to afford upgrades and sensor towers etc you can't be producing tanks from a third factory until after your 4th base is up.
Additionally: 2 scvs mining 4 refineries gives an income of approximately 300 gas per minute, which supports constant thor and banshee production from 1fact and 1port respectively. The 300 gas mined during factory construction affords a port, armory, and second fact. The 300 gas mined during port/armory/fact production affords 2techlabs (fact/port) and a reactor (2nd fact) with 200 excess to afford a thor asap (or banshee and +1 something, dunno what to prioritize with this build yet).
The 4 scvs who can instead mine minerals during this time yield collectively approximately yield 168 additional minerals per sc2-minute who in a vacuum will let you afford the 3rd cc at most 143 seconds faster than normal. 143 seconds of full mining from the 3rd base refineries yields approximately 272 gas, and you'd have mined approximately 90 less gas by not fully saturating each refinery prior to starting the command center relative to what you'd have mined if you had mined with saturation for a net gas profit of 182 gas (and much more mineral profit) relative to what you'd have mined if you had delayed the 3rd cc by mining gas with 3 scvs per refinery as soon as you constructed those refineries. Data collected emperically and supported by or from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055 TL;DR mine gas with 2 workers per refinery until you start your 3rd cc.
For those who have watched at least a few of the reps I've posted, I'd appreciate feedback on my take of the style. The most common errors I'm aware of are late or poor ghost production and not constant port production (typically prior to the first max). While I've had mostly success with this style I'm not convinced I'm necessarily doing it "right". My opponents never tax my multi-tasking the way they should, so I don't think I'm using all the tools in the lyyna style arsenal yet. If you notice patterns across my games of failings or ways I could be getting more out of my units or ways to react to or punish protoss more please tell me. I'm hoping I can eventually write out my definitive way to play the style for others to try to copy, but I'm not there yet. I have a long way yet to go with respect to refining my build and improving my understanding of the style.
For example, I'm unsure about upgrade priority. My intent with 2 armories is to get double mech ups and then double air ups, but maybe double attack then double armour or air attack/mech armour then air armour/mech attack are better options; not sure. I dunno if I said this earlier in the thread but it seems to me like mech attack is important after all (in spite of what lyyna initially stated with the guide; and it seems in his most recent reps like lyyna has taken this part back anyway) to help thors fight air if nothing else. However I don't even know if armour is actually necessary or not (especially early on). If the game plays out such that I can't afford to use 2 armories, which upgrade should I prioritize?
Me? Probably. I've had some shorter games where my opponent tried some all-in that I shat on and they left after, but those reflect the strength of scouting and the adaptability of whatever build order I was using rather than the viability of the mech style itself and aren't really relevant to this thread. I'm not going to say the style can't end games before 30 minutes because I haven't focused on trying to figure out how to do so as I want to practice playing endgame with this style. I'd say odds are high you can probably actually end a game sooner if you're really focused on it and your harass/skirmishes are all successful, though the end result is likely to be an awkward base trade. Typically I think if you're using the style you're going to have to get used to playing long games though.
On June 22 2012 18:29 Nightmarjoo wrote: Me? Probably. I've had some shorter games where my opponent tried some all-in that I shat on and they left after, but those reflect the strength of scouting and the adaptability of whatever build order I was using rather than the viability of the mech style itself and aren't really relevant to this thread. I'm not going to say the style can't end games before 30 minutes because I haven't focused on trying to figure out how to do so as I want to practice playing endgame with this style. I'd say odds are high you can probably actually end a game sooner if you're really focused on it and your harass/skirmishes are all successful, though the end result is likely to be an awkward base trade. Typically I think if you're using the style you're going to have to get used to playing long games though.
Because playing long games as terran is totally relaxing T_T
This is one of the reasons why I hate TvT and meching in general - its too long. Terran is in no way a relaxing race to play when you hit high level, not that any race is, but terran just have a really fragile army in general that needs constant babysitting so they dont eat lead paint or some shit.
lol well I think if you enjoy relaxing games sc probably isn't for you. Having played years of management-style games in broodwar I'm most comfortable in games where I have no deadline I have to win by. I find short games boring and a waste of time.
The nice thing about mech though is that the army is much less fragile as a whole than is a lategame bio army.
I don't notice a difference in game-length between my mech and bio play. If you want to end a game sooner you're welcome to try to do so, but I feel like playing without artificial rules like that gives the greatest chance of success. Winning a higher percent of long games is a better use of time than is losing a lot of short games imo.
As for relaxing though; I think mech gives you more room to apply your smartness to each game rather than primarily focusing on doing whatever you're doing as fast as you possibly can. Speed certainly doesn't hurt, but if you want to go out of your way to avoid working hard I'm pretty sure mech is the way to go.
ST_Hack used Mech vP in some of the TSL4 Q9 KR3 games.
He was doing an 7/8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions.
Some of the games I have watched so far: (VODs in spoilers also)
Semis vs MVP.Lure: Wins on Ohana by doing a lot of damage with hellions and eventually grinding him down
Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost.
I'm a random player (only in Platinum) and I love to play Mech when I roll Terran. However I've been getting rolled by Blink Stalker openings whenever they appear. Here's a replay.
First match of today so it's not the best example of what I do, but here's some of my own analysis.
---- Standard 1-Rax FE into double gas.
Some gaps in SCV production, could have had 1-2 more I think.
I usually start cutting Marines early in favour of a reactor for Hellions, I did so too in this game. Is that a bad idea?
Scan at 6:24 -> I see exactly what he's doing, but it's already too late to build up a proper bio-army to stop his push I whiff a bit on my production which leads to my inevitable defeat, but I don't think I would have had enough units to stop him fast enough had I produced properly. Or would I?
Is there a way to stop a Blink all-in dead in its tracks? Should I have bought time somehow? Is my build sub-optimal?
Thanks! :>
EDIT: Woo Hack did a Mech play twice that tournament? Only caught the first one. Awesome :>
On June 30 2012 13:13 Rhuubarb wrote: ST_Hack used Mech vP in some of the TSL4 Q9 KR3 games.
He was doing an 7/8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions.
Some of the games I have watched so far: (VODs in spoilers also)
Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost.
dont forget that he denies his strategy, buy building a raven and sniping observers. Imho it is a really well timed strategy by him people should look into this.
If the protoss mass expands what should i do? Still turtle or push? and what happens if the toss doesnt attack and turtle too, waiting for you push and after trade army and just warp 100 zealots ht whataever?
The more he expands the more opportunities you have to harass him. Just focus on developing your ultimate composition while whittling away protoss as is possible. If he's not attacking he's maxing on a composition not ideal for dealing with yours; you're in no hurry to end the game.
On July 05 2012 09:39 HGurryp wrote: If the protoss mass expands what should i do? Still turtle or push? and what happens if the toss doesnt attack and turtle too, waiting for you push and after trade army and just warp 100 zealots ht whataever?
Actually,if he tries to expand a lot, what you should do is -try to slow him a bit (banshees,hellions, ravens turrets,etc) -expand yourself -Get a good amount of macros CC
Basically,it's all about getting these orbitals, and (and this answers your second question as well) abusing the fact your final army is way better than his. just play his game,waiting,expanding,macro'ing,then roll on him, destroying his deathball while loosing 50 supply at worst.
On July 09 2012 07:32 Tppz! wrote: maybe im doing something wrong but if he expandsa lot he puts down some cannons and i cant harass at all.
how do you harass bases with cannons? hellions/banshees/ravens are bad. only nuke could be good but i dont have the gas for this
expanding myself doesnt work cause im too spread out then if i dont want to loose my expansions to some blinkstalkers
That's why you need to spot these expansions early,to be able to harass it a bit before there is too much defenses. and you can also do "pre-emptive harassment" , putting turrets on next expansions/hellions/etc
Well,expanding yourself is ok. there is good spots to put sensor towers on every maps ,allowing you to secure the whole area (except on TdA, but well,horrible map for T overall). And if you feel too unsafe, just get macro orbital,and wait until the area is clear to set up your expansions. Also, don't fear if he's trying to mass expo : you can pretty much see the win in front of you,as your army is going to be way better lategame.
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
User was strategy forum banned for a terrible history here.
On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote: Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote: Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
He is right though on somewhat. On maps like Cloud Kingdom I really feel out of my depth. The second the Protoss sees I went for anything except a CC first into mech they just drop a quick third (pre 8 minute) and they just slowly saturate their 3 bases. Then you're basically in the shits since you have no idea what the toss's economy is unless you burn tons of scans because you have no clue if he has 46, 54, 60, or even going for 70+ probes. I remember a game where Naniwa completely mindfucks his opponent by faking a 2 colo ~60 probe attack I think against byun on Cloud Kingdom, and now the terran who has 3 bases cant move out since if you do move out against a low econ protoss you will be burned and insta-lose vs a 160+ supply army. Turns out Naniwa went for a fast 4th and teched to voids and whenever byun try to push out Naniwa would just be stubborn and back away slowly while abusing warpin pylon to harrass Byun's 3rd. By then the toss could have voids, or 3/3 ht colo, or basically anything he wanted. Honestly, on maps like Cloud Kingdom if the toss has somewhat of an idea of what mech can macro out in whatever time and abused it its basically hell on earth come 15 minutes where the terran cant move out, is being constantly harrassed and has a giant timebomb ticking for the when the toss wants to fight and remax into win against you.
On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote: Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
Agreed.
"Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP"
Orly, why and how did Hack beat Lure on Ohana then in TSL4 Qualifer? Ohana is also a great mech map.
Map these days usually aren't nearly as easy to blink into the main (yay!)
You need a starport for raven anyways, so here is how you punish fast protoss third. Suicide hellion drops. Double pronged hellion drops get even more.
I'm not sure if this has been asked before but I'm still skeptical of this mech style, I have tried mech before to very little success. What i ask is this:
From what i understand the reason that traditional MMMGV TvP is so successful is usually because of it's mobility and map control which allows the terran to get and sustain a base advantage. How do you deal with the immobility of mech? I feel as if mech is so much less mobile for a menial increase in power. I found while playing mech that I could not effectively punish a greedy protoss and that the composition was very delicate. A thor/banshee/hellion combo could certainly be fast but in my experience phoenix/colossus is a common response to all mech styles, it seems to counter it extremely hard.
One of the things i have brought up about mech's disabilities is the role of the tank. I know first hand that tanks can be very powerful in TvP but only with large sim cities and when sieged, given a less mobile army how do you divide your forces to deal with harassment and how do you push out properly? It seems as if you would have to leap frog extremely slowly in order to not be killed.
I guess the best question to ask of all is "What is the most powerful counter to your build?" All builds have a counter, what is mech's? What should you be most careful of when trying this?
Guys, I have been thinking and, I reckon it is a good time to somehow buff the siege tank.
What I propose is to increase the build time back to 50 seconds, and even nerf the HP back to 150 But BUFF THE DAMAGE!~ lol
Siege tank's have been nerfed furiously !! First Siege Mode damage was decreased from 60 to 50 and then from 50 to 35 (+15 vs Armored) with the upgrades changing from +5 to +3 (+2 vs Armored)
On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote: Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
well for me it seems like this guys is right about what he is saying, i could also beat a lot of players i face in ladder with some strategys that wouldn t work against even people...so just because u win with it, doesn t actually mean its good....your guide is for sure a good guide, and its great to have ppl looking at things from other perspectives, but alone the fact that no pro is playing mech vs p and the fact that even goody (the king of mech) is nowadays playing bio against toss, tells the hole story, unfortunately.
so this guide is a strategy for mid players, they can use it and win because a lot of toss arent used to this style and dont know how to counter this, but it will never work in high masters (unless you have gm skill and pull it off this way)
I play Terran on the masters NA ladder. My style is mech for all three matchups, i find TvP mech the most bizzare because its either i win the fight so easily and do enough probe damage to max out faster and take the map. Or protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots and kills my CC's across the map, as planetarys dont do anything to a protoss deathball. Mech is good when u have an edge and push it all the way to the late game, i have trouble sometimes getting there without protoss getting too far ahead. However i am differing between 2 styles where i go 2 base ghost or go into 3 base with just thor seige tank hellion. As for toss scouting you going mech, try using my opener i go marauder hellion + expand into cloaked banshee. He'll have to assume you're 1-1-1 all inning cause u switch the tech lab and reactor after the opening and hell have to keep scouting minimal cause of cloaked banshees. I think the general idea of throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well. Such as ghosts and nukes, bf hellino drops, plantary chokes, sensor towers. Etc. The protoss doesnt know what to do, you can contain him till you max then turtle up, hell be forced to enage. and ur army is favored if protoss has to attack into it. Anyways i rage when i lose cause sometimes i dont know where protoss gets the money for their army cause mech is expensive especially if u have to pump vikings tanks and ghosts at the same time. I believe if you lose your whole army and your going mech, it hurts a way lot more then MMM. you need to do damage equally cause toss has good late game warp in capabilities. If you send ghosts out he forces money on cannons and such. I also find mech hard but taking the middle makes it a little easier. I still struggle on some maps if i dont end the game early around like the 20 minute mark or 25.
On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote: Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
well for me it seems like this guys is right about what he is saying, i could also beat a lot of players i face in ladder with some strategys that wouldn t work against even people...so just because u win with it, doesn t actually mean its good....your guide is for sure a good guide, and its great to have ppl looking at things from other perspectives, but alone the fact that no pro is playing mech vs p and the fact that even goody (the king of mech) is nowadays playing bio against toss, tells the hole story, unfortunately.
so this guide is a strategy for mid players, they can use it and win because a lot of toss arent used to this style and dont know how to counter this, but it will never work in high masters (unless you have gm skill and pull it off this way)
and i HAVE read your guid btw ;-)
Disagree, goody was not the best TvP mecher, or at least not significantly. There's a mid-high (idk which, i've also heard he was GM, maybe he dropped recently?) korean player "gorapadong", his mech build has been used in GSL (and won more than it has lost) by players including Sound, Hack, MKP, and Byun. Also Hack has been showing macro TvP mech games recently.
If mech is able to be played at high levels and there are no clear weaknesses, I would say it is viable. Well, would it be worth doing though instead of bio? Well I guess that's up to each person's individual opinion/decision. Well, what if protoss just don't know how to abuse Mech since mech isn't used often? I think that high level players would know, they must have had played mech many times before as they play ~30-40 games per day. If they are not showing the clear weaknesses of mech in high level play, I do not think there are any (I do not believe there are any, and Lynna agrees I think -- for example, all this stuff like "immortal/HT hardcounters mech!" or "Blink stalkers counter mech!" etc., aren't exactly true, because there are answers to them).
Well what IF they don't know how to play against mech (there are more complex things beyond that that are not discovered yet because no one plays mech extensively so they too don't need to learn how to fight mech extensively)? My answer would be, that's not something that needs to be worried about, because the game/metagame is always changing. If there are presently nothing against mech, then why not play it? You could predict that players would "figure out" how to play against mech, but what if there is a way to play against that way? Each MU even with Bio has constantly been evolving; it's all based on risks/reward, and how to gain reward or punish risks has been changing based on the metagame and its current trends.
Anyways, that's just my thought process, and why I play mech.
On July 10 2012 12:07 sinisterrtheory wrote: I play Terran on the masters NA ladder. My style is mech for all three matchups, i find TvP mech the most bizzare because its either i win the fight so easily and do enough probe damage to max out faster and take the map. Or protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots and kills my CC's across the map, as planetarys dont do anything to a protoss deathball. Mech is good when u have an edge and push it all the way to the late game, i have trouble sometimes getting there without protoss getting too far ahead. However i am differing between 2 styles where i go 2 base ghost or go into 3 base with just thor seige tank hellion. As for toss scouting you going mech, try using my opener i go marauder hellion + expand into cloaked banshee. He'll have to assume you're 1-1-1 all inning cause u switch the tech lab and reactor after the opening and hell have to keep scouting minimal cause of cloaked banshees. I think the general idea of throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well. Such as ghosts and nukes, bf hellino drops, plantary chokes, sensor towers. Etc. The protoss doesnt know what to do, you can contain him till you max then turtle up, hell be forced to enage. and ur army is favored if protoss has to attack into it. Anyways i rage when i lose cause sometimes i dont know where protoss gets the money for their army cause mech is expensive especially if u have to pump vikings tanks and ghosts at the same time. I believe if you lose your whole army and your going mech, it hurts a way lot more then MMM. you need to do damage equally cause toss has good late game warp in capabilities. If you send ghosts out he forces money on cannons and such. I also find mech hard but taking the middle makes it a little easier. I still struggle on some maps if i dont end the game early around like the 20 minute mark or 25.
In this hardly understandable post, you at least make it clear that you are using this thread to post your own novice ideas about TvP mech and not reading how Lyyna approaches it.
** Protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots - Covered to death ** Try using my opener i go marauder hellion - This is not build from a marauder opening ** Throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well - We're not loading Terran solutions in a shotgun and firing them into threads. We're discussing SPECIFICALLY the late game mech ground/air compositions that make you have the better army from 2base to 3base + macro and onward. Reported for terrible stream-of-consciousness approach to strategy, and bad posting habits in SC2 Strategy in general.
In this hardly understandable post, you at least make it clear that you are using this thread to post your own novice ideas about TvP mech and not reading how Lyyna approaches it.
** Protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots - Covered to death ** Try using my opener i go marauder hellion - This is not build from a marauder opening ** Throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well - We're not loading Terran solutions in a shotgun and firing them into threads. We're discussing SPECIFICALLY the late game mech ground/air compositions that make you have the better army from 2base to 3base + macro and onward. Reported for terrible stream-of-consciousness approach to strategy, and bad posting habits in SC2 Strategy in general.
You assumed i never read Lynna's post i have. I am posting my input so maybe Lynna or some other mech TvPer can reply? I understand Lynna doesnt do the same opener but we both have the same 2 base building set ups, with cloaked banshees. Just giving out my ideas. Why am i being reported, im just putting my opinions in. Have a nice day.
Bomber recently went mech vs choya during ipl 5 kr regional qualifiers (http://gosugamers.net/starcraft2/downloads.php?cat=4&id=655) on daybreak. He went 1rax cc tank/siege asap, cc, reactor reactor on 2/3 fact, tech reactor on 4/5 fact, ghost; 8tank then only thor; double ups. The build struck me as being the mech equivalent of the current standard bio build. Instead of stim reactor reactor then more techlab, ghost, double ups, he went siege reactor reactor etc.
Harrier went mech in the tsl4 kr qualifier #5 vs killer (http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/TSL4/TSL4_Q15_KR5_Ro128.zip) on daybreak. He went reactorax cc tank tank siege fact fact 3rd gas reactor reactor fagflame and kept up marine production for a push on 5tank 8hellion 22marine. During the push he expo'd, added 2fact, then got an armory for +1 attack. As he took his 3rd he put all 5facts on techlabs and made only tank. He also started ghost production around then. When +1 finished he got a 2nd armory for 2-1; and got +1 ship attack delaying +3 armour. His lategame sucked though; he made a lot of vikings and imo overproduced thor which prevented him from ever getting a meaningful bc count.
Thanks for these replays and a great guide to mech for TvP. The myth that you just can't use mech vs. Toss or its an autoloss, just needs to be busted. Maybe in top masters to pro, but for average players? Anything's possible.
On July 13 2012 04:58 Nightmarjoo wrote: Bomber recently went mech vs choya during ipl 5 kr regional qualifiers (http://gosugamers.net/starcraft2/downloads.php?cat=4&id=655) on daybreak. He went 1rax cc tank/siege asap, cc, reactor reactor on 2/3 fact, tech reactor on 4/5 fact, ghost; 8tank then only thor; double ups. The build struck me as being the mech equivalent of the current standard bio build. Instead of stim reactor reactor then more techlab, ghost, double ups, he went siege reactor reactor etc.
Harrier went mech in the tsl4 kr qualifier #5 vs killer (http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/TSL4/TSL4_Q15_KR5_Ro128.zip) on daybreak. He went reactorax cc tank tank siege fact fact 3rd gas reactor reactor fagflame and kept up marine production for a push on 5tank 8hellion 22marine. During the push he expo'd, added 2fact, then got an armory for +1 attack. As he took his 3rd he put all 5facts on techlabs and made only tank. He also started ghost production around then. When +1 finished he got a 2nd armory for 2-1; and got +1 ship attack delaying +3 armour. His lategame sucked though; he made a lot of vikings and imo overproduced thor which prevented him from ever getting a meaningful bc count.
Thanks a lot for noting these. Second one sounds like gorapadong build or at least very similar. That's very interesting, to put all 5 facts on tech labs... Gonna check these out
On July 13 2012 05:47 Miket2424 wrote: Thanks for these replays and a great guide to mech for TvP. The myth that you just can't use mech vs. Toss or its an autoloss, just needs to be busted. Maybe in top masters to pro, but for average players? Anything's possible.
Yeah, i really really hate this myth. Soo many people are so badly informed (or just not informed at all haha). Whenever one of us knows this myth is simply a myth, no one trusts us and believes that we couldn't possibly have done more research than them and thus possibly be [more] correct <_>. (And when we list games for evidence they either aren't used to the mech styles and hence think the game is not a good enough example or they just repeat the "mech doesn't work" stuff)
Hey guys glad to see this thread is still going strong!
Anyways, thought we could discuss how to position your Sieged Tanks vs Protoss.
I started noticing that doing it how you do against Zerg, in a line perpendicular to them, is definitely not the best way. Protoss with Shields, higher ranged units, and things like Blink, can simply move in, tank some shots, snipe a couple, and move back out and recharge.
Now besides having tanks on cliffs and such, I am not 100% sure of the best way to position them against Protoss. Right now, my idea is to have them in a Triangle with one vertex (corner of the triangle) facing the direction you expect them to attack into.
On July 14 2012 02:15 ZjiublingZ wrote: Hey guys glad to see this thread is still going strong!
Anyways, thought we could discuss how to position your Sieged Tanks vs Protoss.
I started noticing that doing it how you do against Zerg, in a line perpendicular to them, is definitely not the best way. Protoss with Shields, higher ranged units, and things like Blink, can simply move in, tank some shots, snipe a couple, and move back out and recharge.
Now besides having tanks on cliffs and such, I am not 100% sure of the best way to position them against Protoss. Right now, my idea is to have them in a Triangle with one vertex (corner of the triangle) facing the direction you expect them to attack into.
What do you guys think? What is the best way to position Tanks vs Protoss?
against zerg i totally agree with your graphic and you can leave maybe like 3 Tanks at the highground on CK but you can not do that against protoss. In fact, in the TvP matchup my opinion is little bit different
I always cluster my tanks out of 2 reasons:
1. you have to move them more for defense against protoss because you need every single tank to maximize the spash damage
2. if you cluster your tanks the splash damage is bigger and more efficient against the protoss untis
On July 14 2012 02:15 ZjiublingZ wrote: Hey guys glad to see this thread is still going strong!
Anyways, thought we could discuss how to position your Sieged Tanks vs Protoss.
I started noticing that doing it how you do against Zerg, in a line perpendicular to them, is definitely not the best way. Protoss with Shields, higher ranged units, and things like Blink, can simply move in, tank some shots, snipe a couple, and move back out and recharge.
Now besides having tanks on cliffs and such, I am not 100% sure of the best way to position them against Protoss. Right now, my idea is to have them in a Triangle with one vertex (corner of the triangle) facing the direction you expect them to attack into.
What do you guys think? What is the best way to position Tanks vs Protoss?
against zerg i totally agree with your graphic and you can leave maybe like 3 Tanks at the highground on CK but you can not do that against protoss. In fact, in the TvP matchup my opinion is little bit different
I always cluster my tanks out of 2 reasons:
1. you have to move them more for defense against protoss because you need every single tank to maximize the spash damage
2. if you cluster your tanks the splash damage is bigger and more efficient against the protoss untis
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree with Clustering your tanks vs Protoss. It can be good as you said for coordinating shots in one area. But it also can make it very easy for a Protoss to Blink/Charge right on top of all of them. And it allows for Colossus to maximize their damage against them (also doesn't help vs Storms but they aren't really an issue vs Mech). That's why I like the Triangle/3 point formation. Your tanks are close enough that you can still focus fire if the opponent is within their firing range (9), but it also helps deal with Blink/Charge. If they Blink/Charge to one of your points, your other two points can still fire on them safely. For this reason I generally make the 'forward' point on the triangle the weakest in tank count.
Tank positioning is definitely something I always wondered about in TvP xD
For now, I just keep them slightly spread out. They're not all clumped together but they're not spread out like in a TvZ neither. I usually split them into about 3 groups like ZjiublingZ shows. You can leapfrog this way, and as he says, if he tries to engage you, the other 2 clumps will be in range still. If he doesn't engage you, you still have a few tanks (which is enough) sieging his nexus or whatever it is you are pushing towards.
Then again there's the positioning where you just make it into a big arc. This would line things up for colossi though, so maybe make them into 2-3 "layers" of arcs? Basically an arc, except move every other tank forward a bit, so that if a colossus attacks it doesn't splash anything. A really nice arc would be hard to set up quickly though, so the first idea is still similar.
On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote: Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
He is right though on somewhat. On maps like Cloud Kingdom I really feel out of my depth. The second the Protoss sees I went for anything except a CC first into mech they just drop a quick third (pre 8 minute) and they just slowly saturate their 3 bases. Then you're basically in the shits since you have no idea what the toss's economy is unless you burn tons of scans because you have no clue if he has 46, 54, 60, or even going for 70+ probes. I remember a game where Naniwa completely mindfucks his opponent by faking a 2 colo ~60 probe attack I think against byun on Cloud Kingdom, and now the terran who has 3 bases cant move out since if you do move out against a low econ protoss you will be burned and insta-lose vs a 160+ supply army. Turns out Naniwa went for a fast 4th and teched to voids and whenever byun try to push out Naniwa would just be stubborn and back away slowly while abusing warpin pylon to harrass Byun's 3rd. By then the toss could have voids, or 3/3 ht colo, or basically anything he wanted. Honestly, on maps like Cloud Kingdom if the toss has somewhat of an idea of what mech can macro out in whatever time and abused it its basically hell on earth come 15 minutes where the terran cant move out, is being constantly harrassed and has a giant timebomb ticking for the when the toss wants to fight and remax into win against you.
I guess the problem here is the CC first. This often forces a allin OR an eco build from the toss, and that's why i prefer safe openings,which while force safe play for both players (or will allows me to harass, like 111). There is always some hard maps (like CK) i agree, but except for TdA, you can do stuff on it.
On July 10 2012 09:25 PersonDudeGuy wrote: I'm not sure if this has been asked before but I'm still skeptical of this mech style, I have tried mech before to very little success. What i ask is this:
From what i understand the reason that traditional MMMGV TvP is so successful is usually because of it's mobility and map control which allows the terran to get and sustain a base advantage. How do you deal with the immobility of mech? I feel as if mech is so much less mobile for a menial increase in power. I found while playing mech that I could not effectively punish a greedy protoss and that the composition was very delicate. A thor/banshee/hellion combo could certainly be fast but in my experience phoenix/colossus is a common response to all mech styles, it seems to counter it extremely hard.
One of the things i have brought up about mech's disabilities is the role of the tank. I know first hand that tanks can be very powerful in TvP but only with large sim cities and when sieged, given a less mobile army how do you divide your forces to deal with harassment and how do you push out properly? It seems as if you would have to leap frog extremely slowly in order to not be killed.
I guess the best question to ask of all is "What is the most powerful counter to your build?" All builds have a counter, what is mech's? What should you be most careful of when trying this?
Well,the fact is that MMMGV is not that effective anymore, especially since games are longer than before, and bio shows its limits here. And well,the fact is that i allows say "lol" when people talks about bio mobility because basically . . . well, mech (mine,and the few used by pros) rely a lot on banshees and hellions. Banshees flies as fast as medivacs,and hellions are faster than bio . . and dont requires you to sacrifice hp's on your army. and can still be drop. so in terms of controlling the map with pressure/runbys, mech is equal.
I agree than tanks requires sim cities and reduces the mobility of my army.That's why i play totally defensive, extending only to expand until i get my big deathball . Dealing with harassment and leapfrogging is taken care of with 1 tool : sensor towers. These things are sooo under rated, it allows you to judge incoming threat and react accordingly.
Actually the best counter to my build is massive hidden carriers switch. Usually little pressure just to make sure i cant focus on everything while hiding starports in an unscannable position. That's why you need a REALLY careful scouting (and a lot of orbitals).
On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote: Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
well for me it seems like this guys is right about what he is saying, i could also beat a lot of players i face in ladder with some strategys that wouldn t work against even people...so just because u win with it, doesn t actually mean its good....your guide is for sure a good guide, and its great to have ppl looking at things from other perspectives, but alone the fact that no pro is playing mech vs p and the fact that even goody (the king of mech) is nowadays playing bio against toss, tells the hole story, unfortunately.
so this guide is a strategy for mid players, they can use it and win because a lot of toss arent used to this style and dont know how to counter this, but it will never work in high masters (unless you have gm skill and pull it off this way)
and i HAVE read your guid btw ;-)
Well, i wasn't going to answer you post because i saw "goody not playing mech ultimate proof" but as there is others contents.. -For Goody not playing mech : i answered it like 950532 times. including in the guide. -Some people meched vP,especially recently (Hack for example). There is a little number of pros doing it, but still there is some. Which is more than before. -Anyway i never said this guide is for pro. This guide is for every people below me (and as i was able to make it to top 20 master EU,that's a lot of people i guess) who are struggling with bio and want to try a slower style.
@sinisterrtheory : sorry but your post is kinda . . unreadable. anyway Danglars seems to answered it well
About the tank placement thing : I usually spread them just a bit in defense (basically, a "tank space" between each tank). Allows to good fire concentration, but he also cant get a good grab on my tanks number (as obs get sniped by thors, and there is a few lines of tanks). And you can adapt the formation to his army. In offense,you'll often dont have time to place them anyway... going to edit for others answers
basically this a cc first into 16rax16gas opener into reactor hellion into 2fact1rax helliontankmarine pressure into a ghosttankhellionbansheeviking timing. hellion heavy composition. (againts bling its a little bit older replays, thats why it wasnt CC first the later ones are recent)
basically this a cc first into 16rax16gas opener into reactor hellion into 2fact1rax helliontankmarine pressure into a ghosttankhellionbansheeviking timing. hellion heavy composition. (againts bling its a little bit older replays, thats why it wasnt CC first the later ones are recent)
any thoughts?
I personally don't really like mass hellion style but well, the style is interesting (especially considering the few "pro" mech are using a lots of hellions too). Opening being really unsafe imo (15CC is already unsafe, but going reactor hellion after..hmm)
agree about cc first into 16 rax 16 gas... 14 cc is already greedy, and you only get 1 rax? and not even into bio, but into mech, and a hellion opening at that o.o
i mean, it's not a build I would use every game as my go-to build, only something to mix things up
So far they aren't the greatest games, but if anyone's interested I've been streaming now. http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/videos The vods are broken up into ~1 hour segments cuz my internet kept discing for 5 seconds which made xsplit start a new vod every time. I went 6-0 tvp today all using various mech builds.
So it seems to me that after experimenting with a myriad of various 1rax cc openings, such as the hellion-heavy variations that the "pros" have been doing, that 1rax cc into mech isn't safe. There are scenarios where it works very well, such as 1rax cc gasgas vs nexus first, but it seems like there are unwinnable scenarios too.
When I do 1rax cc gasgas there are some 1base all-ins I find I can't stop, because they look to my scout scv like 1gate nex, and by the time I scout a proxy or something in their main with a 2nd scout that indicates it's an all-in instead I don't have the time to make enough marines with the late extra rax/bunkers I frantically build to survive.
When I do 1rax cc raxrax gasgas I find there are 2base attacks that aren't holdable except maybe with a very large bunker count due to just not having enough gas/time to make the good mech units. I've tried pure tank/hellion with the intent of holding map control and dissuading an attack with hellions, and I didn't have much success with it. With a large number of bunkers and/or just defending in nat (not taking 3rd) it might be possible to hold such attacks, but if you have to delay your 3rd gas and make a bunch of extra bunkers then there's no economic advantage conveyed by opening 1rax cc instead.
So instead I'm returning to more traditional lyyna openings, and so far I've been much more successful. In lyyna's most recent games he was opening 2gas fact 4 marine tank cc. I don't like a single siegeless tank if it's not going to be obviously immediately useful. So what I've been mostly trying so far is a very similar opening, except getting a hellion and armory instead of a tank (assuming my scv scout didn't detect an all-in) If the hellion scouts the signs of an all-in I can make the tank instead if I need, and get a port before cc, etc. The difference is a faster thor, not "wasting" money on a tank that won't be needed for a while, and significantly faster upgrades. Maybe there's some all-in that I won't be able to stop since I've delayed that initial heavy fact unit, but I'm not aware of any thus so far.
What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote: What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but...
1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you.
2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere.
3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base.
4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you.
5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game.
You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball.
On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote: What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but...
1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you.
2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere.
3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base.
4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you.
5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game.
You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball.
1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed.
2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more?
4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor?
basically this a cc first into 16rax16gas opener into reactor hellion into 2fact1rax helliontankmarine pressure into a ghosttankhellionbansheeviking timing. hellion heavy composition. (againts bling its a little bit older replays, thats why it wasnt CC first the later ones are recent)
any thoughts?
I personally don't really like mass hellion style but well, the style is interesting (especially considering the few "pro" mech are using a lots of hellions too). Opening being really unsafe imo (15CC is already unsafe, but going reactor hellion after..hmm)
Lyyna,
Big fan of your contribution. I'm a TvP mech player as well and I have many discussions with ESCGoody on the topic. Goody stopped mech play primarily b/c of BF nerf. I've seen many of your replays, but honestly, I try to avoid the air transition. I've reviewed many of your "long" games and I stopped banshee build altogether (I think its too predictable and common). With the new map pool, what seems to be working for me as a high master Terran, is gas first into reactor helion (no marine if no probe). Much of the time Protoss is fooled into fast banshee or some helion rines push and do not see it coming. Even when they see the double helions, they have a hard time blocking with constant helion rally.
While i keep pumping helions I drop the CC at my natural. There is very little defense except the bunker and maurader made from the one rax/tech lab - this can be construed as a weakness in the build, but so is going banshee with only 1 bunk to defend. I take the xel naga towers with any helions left and attempt to circle around and do a run-by if they try to move out.
I drop armory then additional 3 facts and go from there...but my unit composition usually consists of tanks, helions, 2-3 ghosts, 1-2 thors (unless there is P air.)
Edit: I also like this build because you can scout your opponents base while killing probes. Many times I have won b/c the Protoss went fast v-ray proxy and had very little units. I was able to kill all probes and kill the 1-2 vray after switching reactor factory with rax.
I've been wondering about a Reactor Hellion opening in TvP as I feel very comfortable with it in my TvZ games. However my main worry with it is the complete lack of anti-air. Zerg cannot get any air up before 10 minutes and that is if he rushes straight for a Spire. The hellions generally force Roaches (as I keep building them up to 12+) which delays the Spire.
Against Protoss however, I don't know the exact timing for a Void Ray but I believe it is around 6:30 to 7 minutes. By that time I'd have about 4-6 hellions but very few marines (perhaps only the initial 2?). Any sort of Stalker support (as they can see the marines on the high ground due to Void Ray vision) would make it even harder. Also, Protoss can proxy the Stargate although the hellions may spot it then.
Any insights into how to scout for (and deal with) a Void Ray opening if I went for Reactor Hellion?
On July 22 2012 18:14 Thezzy wrote: I've been wondering about a Reactor Hellion opening in TvP as I feel very comfortable with it in my TvZ games. However my main worry with it is the complete lack of anti-air. Zerg cannot get any air up before 10 minutes and that is if he rushes straight for a Spire. The hellions generally force Roaches (as I keep building them up to 12+) which delays the Spire.
Against Protoss however, I don't know the exact timing for a Void Ray but I believe it is around 6:30 to 7 minutes. By that time I'd have about 4-6 hellions but very few marines (perhaps only the initial 2?). Any sort of Stalker support (as they can see the marines on the high ground due to Void Ray vision) would make it even harder. Also, Protoss can proxy the Stargate although the hellions may spot it then.
Any insights into how to scout for (and deal with) a Void Ray opening if I went for Reactor Hellion?
Basically when your hellions get to his base, if he doesn't have many units, you can be pretty sure he is going void ray. Make sure by sending out an scv and checking proxy locations. If you do find the stargate immediately put the rax on the factory and pump marines. You could put down an engineering bay if you really don't feel safe, but that isn't always necessary.
On July 22 2012 18:14 Thezzy wrote: I've been wondering about a Reactor Hellion opening in TvP as I feel very comfortable with it in my TvZ games. However my main worry with it is the complete lack of anti-air. Zerg cannot get any air up before 10 minutes and that is if he rushes straight for a Spire. The hellions generally force Roaches (as I keep building them up to 12+) which delays the Spire.
Against Protoss however, I don't know the exact timing for a Void Ray but I believe it is around 6:30 to 7 minutes. By that time I'd have about 4-6 hellions but very few marines (perhaps only the initial 2?). Any sort of Stalker support (as they can see the marines on the high ground due to Void Ray vision) would make it even harder. Also, Protoss can proxy the Stargate although the hellions may spot it then.
Any insights into how to scout for (and deal with) a Void Ray opening if I went for Reactor Hellion?
Adding to what kollin said -- remember they are doing a 1 base strategy, meaning you have a lot of leeway for defending it while still being ahead. Don't be afraid to spend resources into an ebay (if the map allows you to place ~3-4 turrets to stop voids from entering your base, i would go ebay) or a starport for vikings. When I see protoss 1 base (any kind really) i just transition into 1/1/1. Marine Tank Viking. 111 should give you the infrastructure to stop all kinds of 1 base plays. Against void ray, you can go 3 rax 1 fact 1 starport and end the game with marine tank banshee.
So if you don't see a 2nd base but don't know what he's doing -- I would just play it safe. Remember, you are getting an expo so you'll already be ahead "as long as you defend the push". I quote that because obviously if you invest too much into defense protoss could break even, but you would have to spend a lot of resources for that to happen, and even if it happens, it's not the end of the game -- he's merely not at a severe disadvantage anymore.
If it's on a map that's hard to defend against certain 1 base plays (or if you're not confident in micro) then don't be afraid to lift your natural CC into your main. It's much easier to defend and you'll still have higher income than the Protoss thanks to the extra Mules.
Yes I forgot the exact timing but 3 gate void is around 7 minutes, depending on if they wait for 2 or 3 voids or just go asap. If you don't see an expansion by 5:30 (or 5:40, since 1 gate robo expand is at around 5:30), then an alarm should go off in your head that he's doing a 1 base play. You have roughly 1.5 minutes to prepare for the attack. The easy way, once again, would be just to get to 1/1/1. Obviously if you know how to scout for other things or suspect other things you could play it more risky and prepare for that attack specifically, but you'll still be very far ahead even investing into the extra starport.
On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote: What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but...
1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you.
2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere.
3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base.
4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you.
5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game.
You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball.
1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed.
2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more?
4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor?
1) I remember i played around with lots of air compositions vs stalker compositions. I forget the ideal numbers though. Roughly 10 PDD per 50 stalkers. Roughly 1 Raven per 5 Banshees. If you don't have 200 energy on each raven, 5 Seeker Missiles is really close to providing the same result (as long as stalkers are clumped up decently). I compared PDD to Seeker missile ratios at many different compositions and army sizes, it was always very close. I tested mainly for banshee/Raven/viking though, so I didn't try out BC heavy compositions (BC/Raven in this case). Usually I don't have enough gas to make that many ravens though so I don't worry about getting a really high Raven/PDD count until later in the game when you're really rich (and thus can replace your SCV count with MULEs, thus freeing up more supply for army, thus allowing you to have more extra supply for extra Ravens/PDDs).
2) See #1. You want to try to get a bigger army and get more and more ravens eventually since energy is free. 12 Ravens is pretty high though, and if you aren't having trouble keeping them alive it should definitely be a good enough number. You could get much higher numbers but if he's a good player he should be able to feedback your PDD/Ravens in time so you gotta be careful
4) Air attack by far. Why? Protoss has 2 armor upgrades: Armor and Shield. If you upgrade attack, they need to upgrade both armor and shield to "make up" for Terran's attack advantage. Also, Banshees, Vikings, BCs are all multi-shot, while Stalkers aren't. Phoenix are multishot but it's still more worth getting attack over defense because the Protoss needs to upgrade their own air upgrade separately, and you have PDD for defense. Air attack also allows you to harass/base-trade much faster and reduce the effect of guardian shield.
On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote: What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but...
1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you.
2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere.
3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base.
4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you.
5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game.
You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball.
1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed.
2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more?
4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor?
1) I remember i played around with lots of air compositions vs stalker compositions. I forget the ideal numbers though. Roughly 10 PDD per 50 stalkers. Roughly 1 Raven per 5 Banshees. If you don't have 200 energy on each raven, 5 Seeker Missiles is really close to providing the same result (as long as stalkers are clumped up decently). I compared PDD to Seeker missile ratios at many different compositions and army sizes, it was always very close. I tested mainly for banshee/Raven/viking though, so I didn't try out BC heavy compositions (BC/Raven in this case). Usually I don't have enough gas to make that many ravens though so I don't worry about getting a really high Raven/PDD count until later in the game when you're really rich (and thus can replace your SCV count with MULEs, thus freeing up more supply for army, thus allowing you to have more extra supply for extra Ravens/PDDs).
2) See #1. You want to try to get a bigger army and get more and more ravens eventually since energy is free. 12 Ravens is pretty high though, and if you aren't having trouble keeping them alive it should definitely be a good enough number. You could get much higher numbers but if he's a good player he should be able to feedback your PDD/Ravens in time so you gotta be careful
4) Air attack by far. Why? Protoss has 2 armor upgrades: Armor and Shield. If you upgrade attack, they need to upgrade both armor and shield to "make up" for Terran's attack advantage. Also, Banshees, Vikings, BCs are all multi-shot, while Stalkers aren't. Phoenix are multishot but it's still more worth getting attack over defense because the Protoss needs to upgrade their own air upgrade separately, and you have PDD for defense. Air attack also allows you to harass/base-trade much faster and reduce the effect of guardian shield.
5) thanks so much :D[/QUOTE]
I uploaded 3 replays and i'am interested in your opinion about it. I'am just diamond so don't blame me for my mechanics
I guess in all matches you can see my problem with my 3 mainquestions: When should i start my upgrades und which ones? How many PDD i need against stalkers? Should i build only BC at the beginning or directly mixing it with ravens?
Unfortunetly i couldn't find my mass stalker loss. sry for that
On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote: What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but...
1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you.
2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere.
3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base.
4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you.
5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game.
You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball.
1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed.
2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more?
4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor?
1) I remember i played around with lots of air compositions vs stalker compositions. I forget the ideal numbers though. Roughly 10 PDD per 50 stalkers. Roughly 1 Raven per 5 Banshees. If you don't have 200 energy on each raven, 5 Seeker Missiles is really close to providing the same result (as long as stalkers are clumped up decently). I compared PDD to Seeker missile ratios at many different compositions and army sizes, it was always very close. I tested mainly for banshee/Raven/viking though, so I didn't try out BC heavy compositions (BC/Raven in this case). Usually I don't have enough gas to make that many ravens though so I don't worry about getting a really high Raven/PDD count until later in the game when you're really rich (and thus can replace your SCV count with MULEs, thus freeing up more supply for army, thus allowing you to have more extra supply for extra Ravens/PDDs).
2) See #1. You want to try to get a bigger army and get more and more ravens eventually since energy is free. 12 Ravens is pretty high though, and if you aren't having trouble keeping them alive it should definitely be a good enough number. You could get much higher numbers but if he's a good player he should be able to feedback your PDD/Ravens in time so you gotta be careful
4) Air attack by far. Why? Protoss has 2 armor upgrades: Armor and Shield. If you upgrade attack, they need to upgrade both armor and shield to "make up" for Terran's attack advantage. Also, Banshees, Vikings, BCs are all multi-shot, while Stalkers aren't. Phoenix are multishot but it's still more worth getting attack over defense because the Protoss needs to upgrade their own air upgrade separately, and you have PDD for defense. Air attack also allows you to harass/base-trade much faster and reduce the effect of guardian shield.
5) thanks so much :D
I uploaded 3 replays and i'am interested in your opinion about it. I'am just diamond so don't blame me for my mechanics
I guess in all matches you can see my problem with my 3 mainquestions: When should i start my upgrades und which ones? How many PDD i need against stalkers? Should i build only BC at the beginning or directly mixing it with ravens?
Unfortunetly i couldn't find my mass stalker loss. sry for that
I'll watch the dragon game first, because when i go air i start with banshees. I've always wanted to try a 1 rax FE BC opening (into BCs, instead of banshees) and so I'll take a look at how dragon plays it first.
Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~
http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio.
So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me.
When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1.
Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully.
In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production.
The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it.
An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think).
I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor).
Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)).
I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet.
So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though.
As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
Would just like to say thank you to everyone who has maintained and contributed to this thread. As someone who has always paid mech TvT and TvZ, but assumed that it couldn't be made to work in TvP, it has been perfect for me.
I'm now happily meching along in gold league, and TvP is no longer my "problem child" matchup (damn zergs...).
On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote: Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~
http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio.
So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me.
When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1.
Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully.
In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production.
The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it.
An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think).
I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor).
Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)).
I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet.
So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though.
As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
I really like your play. Also, a really interesting thing to note is that you came to same conclusions than me about -uppgrades. These days i choose to get early attack uppgrades. I still go for +1 armor first but go attack after this, as the finale objective of your deathball is to burst everything as fast as possible -Ghosts. You need good ghosts count and personally, instead of getting early 2nd rax, i usually prefer to get early (~~12 min) ghost academy. -Scouting. That's why i love to get mass orbitals : mass mules . . and shitloads of scans -Cloak. Too early cloak delay too much your thors tech, that's why i prefer to start it around 8-10 minutes, while getting my first thor.It's really important to get it early enough for any 10-12 minutes bust, which is easily dealt with by sniping obs and enjoying imbanshees.
This fast carriers style you are describing. .. that's one of the reasons i like to go thors/banshees/hellions/ghosts on 2 bases, only adding more stuff with more bases . Because if the protoss try to play a greedy low unit/fast tech/fast expand style, you can punish it with a REALLY strong midgame composition on 2/3 bases.
About your last reflexion on harassment,well,that's why i prefer to always play defensive and only pressuring some sides of his bases/army,never comitting to it (you can see it especially in my TvZs,where i can sometimes win without killing a single drones in 20 minutes). And by not loosing my "poke units", i can use resources to build orbitals and scan instead of rebuilding these 4 hellions that charged in 14 cannons to kill 1 probes.
Been trying out more aggressive openings. So far I've had a lot of success with hellion/marauder. Illusion did a weird build on daybreak vs hero recently where he went gas first fact reactor (rax) reactor (fact) cc marine/hellion and attacked on 11 marine 8 hellion, forcing hero to cancel cc. I've tried Reactor hellion cc too, and it seems ok, but I'm not a huge fan of it yet atm. I don't like cloaked banshee cc: seems like I'm delaying cc too much for not that much gain. I haven't been able to pull off cloaked banshee cc cc tank/hellion yet, but it seems like if viable that wouldn't be bad.
On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote: Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~
http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio.
So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me.
When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1.
Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully.
In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production.
The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it.
An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think).
I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor).
Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)).
I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet.
So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though.
As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
Night, Good post.
You said, "An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold"
I've played against this before as high masters. It is a hard counter to mech which few know. My mistake is making too few starports. If you see this, my commentary to the community is have a minimun of 3 reactor starports and start all air upgrades ASAP.
I had to suicide tanks to try and kill his 3rd and 4th but it was too late. Make sure you scan and identify this build before it gets out of control. It was my fault for not scouting his army composition, but it is diffucult focusing on composition with this very "tanky" build. I'm only TvP mech (regardelss of map) but my builds certainly are dictated by the map, so it is best to try and scan in key places (too bad no cloaked obs or super speed ols)
Long-time reader and player, first-time poster (unless you count my practice partner post), so please bear with me if the format or point-of-discussion is not up to snuff.
I have been closely following this thread and FilterSC's Bronze to Masters threads and videos, watching dozens of replays and tutorials while I try to get my head around the nuances of Terran macro, and have a few questions, not about the build itself, but its difficulty in execution.
The reason this build in particular appeals to me, is that it's so UNLIKE the heavy bio play that FilterSC teaches in order to help players grasp macro fundamentals. To lower league players especially, does the macro (with all the macro-OCs, SCV exchanges, and expansion tactics, seem at all counter-intutive or clumsy? As a lower league player, I find it difficult to benchmark the quality of a player's economy when performing these kinds of builds compared to a much more standard format of play, and would be curious as to whether there were opinions on the economic backbone of this kind of play in general.
In addition, is there any reason to not use the lessons and tactics brought to bear in this thread in every matchup? TvT it seems that the player with the right mixture of mech/bio/air and map control with a decent economy behind it will always come out ahead. TvZ anymore seems to be driven more and more to the late game (disregarding all-ins and busts) as people are hungry for Infestor/Broodlord heavy armies which I would loooove to Mech the hell out of. (Neural parasite still kinda scares me...but I'll get over it)
I suppose my reason for posting, is that again, I really like the way this build looks, and thematically the only thing better than marines are giant robots, so if the wise ones active in this thread could lend some insight into whether I would be taking a step forward or backward by training on this kind of play while also training on macro/bio it would be greatly appreciated.
Again, sorry if maybe this was the wrong place to post this. Please don't ban me, lol.
I'm not familiar with what he advises, but I'm inclined to suggest improving your fundamentals with bio before trying to learn mech. Bionic play is very mechanical in nature (player-mechanics) With bio it almost doesn't matter if you're doing the right or wrong thing as long as you're doing it fast. Your units are powerful but flimsy, requiring good attention and control to get the most out of them. Succeeding in gaining any level of mastery over bio will inevitably help your core mechanics as a whole. And you can get by in bio just by focusing on having efficient macro and active units.
In sharp contrast mech is much more decision-based than bio is. In tvz mech you'll have 3 techlab facts for a large percent of the game. The difference between making three thors and two thors and one tank with a production cycle could be the difference between losing horribly and winning decisively. When you complete a new CC you have to decide whether you can safely expand with it, giving you a new place to drop mules with the added requirement of more space to defend (more opportunities for your opponent to damage you), make an extra OC out of it for scanning and mule-dropping, or making a defensive PF out of it helping secure what you already have. Expanding when you can't hold that expansion is a huge waste of money, making an extra OC when you have no place to mule is a huge waste of money, and making an extra PF when you're running out of income is going to lose the game. Efficient macro isn't inherently good here if you aren't making the right thing. And often the bulk of your units aren't active, which makes getting the most out of the units which can be active far more imperative.
However, just getting to that point in the game where you have to make a decision, a choice based on your experience and the information you have specific to the game's scenario, requires good mechanics. You can't focus on your mechanics playing mech if you're losing by making poor choices, but you can't survive to learn how to make those decisions without decent mechanics. My standard tvz opening is cc first or 1rax cc into hellion/banshee. I use the hellion/banshee to scout my opponent, limit their creep spread (which effectively gives me time to react to anything), slow their economic and military growth by forcing them to use larvae replacing drones and lings instead of making new things to hurt me with, and to give me a safety net of force and distraction behind which I can secure my 3rd base allowing me to produce what I need to stay in the game. If you don't have the micro, macro, and multi-task to do all those tasks simultaneously, you're just going to lose to a single roach attack. And while you could try to develop those skills playing mech, you're better off doing so with bio imo. Being forced to multi-task like that with repetition and time will improve your multi-task, but only if you get there alive by knowing to make your bunker next to the cc instead of in part of your wall because you scouted his fast gas making a mass ling runby a possibility, and knowing to scan again at 6:30 to rule out the possibility of a roach all-in which would require you to make marauders with the rax-techlab and make the port-techlab with the port itself instead of floating to the rax techlab, etc etc.
I have no idea how viable it is to try to climb the ladder with mech. I started sc2 with the skill and experience playing bw competetively for 6 years yields and have been the equivalent of high masters since the beginning of beta. I played very nearly exclusively bio in sc2 until about last spring (except tvt, which I started meching in after mlg anaheim last year or so). Switching to mech was relatively easy for me once I came to understand the elementary decision making behind each matchup. I can't possibly say how easy or difficult that switch can be for someone at all relatively lacking in experience and skill.
Also with bio you have the huge advantage of being able to copy and mimic what progamers do. When you aren't sure how to handle a situation you can find replay or vod showing you the solution, or giving you a different build altogether to try out to avoid the scenario entirely, etc. With mech you mostly have to make up the answers for yourself since it isn't popular. Thus what games there are out there (and at whatever level) additionally include a great number of idiosyncrasies that you can't always copy for success. So if you choose mech, know that you do so at your own win% peril.
As for benchmarking economy, just compare income to necessary spending. I have games where my economy is just in shambles because I had to sack SCVs early to defend an attack, or to free up supply to adjust my composition safely to be able to stay in-game, etc, while having 10 OCs. You think, 10 orbitals? That's pretty good! But 10 OCs isn't good if I actually need 13 to support the constant production of everything I need, and thus I have no money and everything I choose to make is a potential game-ending hazard if I budgetted for the wrong thing (chose a BC when I needed a thor, etc).
Alllllllllll that being said, I think mech is wonderful style in each matchup, and that every terran should learn what they can about it to increase terran's strategic diversity as a whole across the world. If it turns out you can improve while learning mech, great! But if you choose this route, you may hit barriers forcing you to pause playing mech to improve your skill with bio.
On July 31 2012 03:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not familiar with what he advises, but I'm inclined to suggest improving your fundamentals with bio before trying to learn mech. Bionic play is very mechanical in nature (player-mechanics) With bio it almost doesn't matter if you're doing the right or wrong thing as long as you're doing it fast. Your units are powerful but flimsy, requiring good attention and control to get the most out of them. Succeeding in gaining any level of mastery over bio will inevitably help your core mechanics as a whole. And you can get by in bio just by focusing on having efficient macro and active units.
In sharp contrast mech is much more decision-based than bio is. In tvz mech you'll have 3 techlab facts for a large percent of the game. The difference between making three thors and two thors and one tank with a production cycle could be the difference between losing horribly and winning decisively. When you complete a new CC you have to decide whether you can safely expand with it, giving you a new place to drop mules with the added requirement of more space to defend (more opportunities for your opponent to damage you), make an extra OC out of it for scanning and mule-dropping, or making a defensive PF out of it helping secure what you already have. Expanding when you can't hold that expansion is a huge waste of money, making an extra OC when you have no place to mule is a huge waste of money, and making an extra PF when you're running out of income is going to lose the game. Efficient macro isn't inherently good here if you aren't making the right thing. And often the bulk of your units aren't active, which makes getting the most out of the units which can be active far more imperative.
However, just getting to that point in the game where you have to make a decision, a choice based on your experience and the information you have specific to the game's scenario, requires good mechanics. You can't focus on your mechanics playing mech if you're losing by making poor choices, but you can't survive to learn how to make those decisions without decent mechanics. My standard tvz opening is cc first or 1rax cc into hellion/banshee. I use the hellion/banshee to scout my opponent, limit their creep spread (which effectively gives me time to react to anything), slow their economic and military growth by forcing them to use larvae replacing drones and lings instead of making new things to hurt me with, and to give me a safety net of force and distraction behind which I can secure my 3rd base allowing me to produce what I need to stay in the game. If you don't have the micro, macro, and multi-task to do all those tasks simultaneously, you're just going to lose to a single roach attack. And while you could try to develop those skills playing mech, you're better off doing so with bio imo. Being forced to multi-task like that with repetition and time will improve your multi-task, but only if you get there alive by knowing to make your bunker next to the cc instead of in part of your wall because you scouted his fast gas making a mass ling runby a possibility, and knowing to scan again at 6:30 to rule out the possibility of a roach all-in which would require you to make marauders with the rax-techlab and make the port-techlab with the port itself instead of floating to the rax techlab, etc etc.
I have no idea how viable it is to try to climb the ladder with mech. I started sc2 with the skill and experience playing bw competetively for 6 years yields and have been the equivalent of high masters since the beginning of beta. I played very nearly exclusively bio in sc2 until about last spring (except tvt, which I started meching in after mlg anaheim last year or so). Switching to mech was relatively easy for me once I came to understand the elementary decision making behind each matchup. I can't possibly say how easy or difficult that switch can be for someone at all relatively lacking in experience and skill.
Also with bio you have the huge advantage of being able to copy and mimic what progamers do. When you aren't sure how to handle a situation you can find replay or vod showing you the solution, or giving you a different build altogether to try out to avoid the scenario entirely, etc. With mech you mostly have to make up the answers for yourself since it isn't popular. Thus what games there are out there (and at whatever level) additionally include a great number of idiosyncrasies that you can't always copy for success. So if you choose mech, know that you do so at your own win% peril.
As for benchmarking economy, just compare income to necessary spending. I have games where my economy is just in shambles because I had to sack SCVs early to defend an attack, or to free up supply to adjust my composition safely to be able to stay in-game, etc, while having 10 OCs. You think, 10 orbitals? That's pretty good! But 10 OCs isn't good if I actually need 13 to support the constant production of everything I need, and thus I have no money and everything I choose to make is a potential game-ending hazard if I budgetted for the wrong thing (chose a BC when I needed a thor, etc).
Alllllllllll that being said, I think mech is wonderful style in each matchup, and that every terran should learn what they can about it to increase terran's strategic diversity as a whole across the world. If it turns out you can improve while learning mech, great! But if you choose this route, you may hit barriers forcing you to pause playing mech to improve your skill with bio.
Holy awesome answer!
I honestly have no other questions at this time... That's a first. I'm sure I can get my mech fix just supporting my bio play in each matchup without committing to the insanity that is this build.
I'm totally stealing the sensor towers bit though. Played a couple games where I had them pretty much covering any area I didn't have vision and absolutely hamstrung my opponent.
Little update about myself : i'm going to stream a lot for the next two weeks, i found a good way to get a good stream with my low upload (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272764, awesome guys). First one in ~~30 min after eating. I suggest you to follow me or just bookmark the page on facebook (link in the first post) to see when are next ones (i just post this on here, as lots of people asked me to start doing stuff for the guide :D)
I finally just tried out this mech turtle style TvP following alot of Lynna's guidelines. I beat a 1000 pt master Protoss on Antiga in a 31 minute game. I see several ways I can improve on my play, so this seems kind of exciting knowing I can be so sloppy and still have such a strong lategame composition. I will definitely give this some more attempts. Keep up the good work Lynna.
I'm just going to say that I went mech TvP for the first time properly today and it ended as a tie game. He had tons of storming high templars, stalkers and archons but I ended up stuck with only my main left. he couldn't push up my ramp, the entire map was mined out and neither of us could build anything.
He tried to attack into me but failed and since the guy seemed so nice rather than go towards his base with what I had left I decided to force the draw. I must say until I walled half my tanks in my base by accident (causing me to lose the main battle) Mech was working exceedingly well for me. Thanks for the great advice/info in this thread! :D
Lyyna could I ask if you are able to release a replay pack of your recent mech games for the mech resource thread? You're a pretty high level player so it would be really useful :D
On August 08 2012 06:00 kollin wrote: Lyyna could I ask if you are able to release a replay pack of your recent mech games for the mech resource thread? You're a pretty high level player so it would be really useful :D
I stopped getting cloak early because it was expensive and wasn't guaranteeing to make the banshees be helpful. I found the banshees increasingly less useful and just made them cuz they're part of the original lyyna build. The raven isn't inherently worth the investment of gas of port and itself. Sniping obs isn't important if I'm not relying on cloaked banshees. The pdd is only useful if they engage me with stalkers, which is relatively rare in midgame. Usually I encounter zlot/immortal/ht instead.
Not having a port lets me afford thors and upgrades initially more smoothly, then makes it easier to produce all the stuff I need as I take my 3rd (ghost acad, ghosts, 2fact, reactor and techlab, tank, siege, sensor towers, pf, +2, etc). Ebay and turret(s) provide detection perfectly well, and can be useful rest of game vs dt. Having ebay already makes it easy to pf 3rd asap.
I think portless might have the potential to be more aggressive as well.
On August 14 2012 15:30 Nightmarjoo wrote: Trying portless midgame atm. So far so good.
I stopped getting cloak early because it was expensive and wasn't guaranteeing to make the banshees be helpful. I found the banshees increasingly less useful and just made them cuz they're part of the original lyyna build. The raven isn't inherently worth the investment of gas of port and itself. Sniping obs isn't important if I'm not relying on cloaked banshees. The pdd is only useful if they engage me with stalkers, which is relatively rare in midgame. Usually I encounter zlot/immortal/ht instead.
Not having a port lets me afford thors and upgrades initially more smoothly, then makes it easier to produce all the stuff I need as I take my 3rd (ghost acad, ghosts, 2fact, reactor and techlab, tank, siege, sensor towers, pf, +2, etc). Ebay and turret(s) provide detection perfectly well, and can be useful rest of game vs dt. Having ebay already makes it easy to pf 3rd asap.
I think portless might have the potential to be more aggressive as well.
Just a thing that springs to mind. You have to be more warry of the Protoss switching to air aka scout for it regularly. If you have to build a Starport still, when his air is already on it's way to your base, you're lost. But nevertheless I like the portless midgame style.
Hmm I don't think that's too scary. If he's super fast carrier I should notice he has shit ups and no units and can just push before they're out. If they're not too fast my ghost/thor should handle whatever comes out until bcs are out.
Thanks for the replays yet again Nightmarjoo. I really don't like banshees as I'm so bad with getting them to do any damage, maybe I was getting them too late but they never actually helped me so this more factory heavy style should suit me better.
Hi guys, new replay pack! In this pack, there is some really interesting games where i play in a low eco/bad trade situation in TvP, still winning after that. Interesting games to show how mech can recover or just get an edge in a too equal situation
On August 23 2012 15:27 Lyyna wrote: Hi guys, new replay pack! http://www.mediafire.com/?t08i8p36i481qi9 In this pack, there is some really interesting games where i play in a low eco/bad trade situation in TvP, still winning after that. Interesting games to show how mech can recover or just get an edge in a too equal situation
edit : hitting quote instead of edit like a boss --'
with regards to upgrades, if im in a position where i know im safe to max our on what I want, I did major damage with harrass earlier setting him back, or I have really good position or whatever, when i switch into bcs should i prioritise air upgrades over ground if i havent reached 3-3 yet?
On August 23 2012 18:03 ThePianoDentist wrote: with regards to upgrades, if im in a position where i know im safe to max our on what I want, I did major damage with harrass earlier setting him back, or I have really good position or whatever, when i switch into bcs should i prioritise air upgrades over ground if i havent reached 3-3 yet?
Prioritize attack upgrades (mech before air), then air armour (if you're making bcs), then get vehicle armour last.
I wrote a recap and analysis of a tvp of mine in the mech resource thread. I think it can help people who are struggling with tvp mech to understand the mindset necessary to make this style work: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15959954.
Usually i'll try to get 3 attack 1 armor on my mech, getting a second armory while teching to BC (which is usually while getting +3 attack for ground). After that, get attack uppgrades for air, and on the other armory, get ground armor if he's staying with a ground army (your air will not take any damage then, stalkers get owned by PDD and archons by ghosts), or air armour if he's going air (carriers...) Btw night, interesting opening. If you see an expo from the toss, do you go CC before thor with this?
@Dynwar : i'll check if i have interesting loss vs bio, but well, imo, a bio winning vs mech is just relying on a gimmicky runby/misscontrol by the mech player to win the game...
On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote: Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~
http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio.
So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me.
When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1.
Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully.
In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production.
The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it.
An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think).
I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor).
Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)).
I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet.
So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though.
As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
Night, Good post.
You said, "An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold"
I've played against this before as high masters. It is a hard counter to mech which few know. My mistake is making too few starports. If you see this, my commentary to the community is have a minimun of 3 reactor starports and start all air upgrades ASAP.
I had to suicide tanks to try and kill his 3rd and 4th but it was too late. Make sure you scan and identify this build before it gets out of control. It was my fault for not scouting his army composition, but it is diffucult focusing on composition with this very "tanky" build. I'm only TvP mech (regardelss of map) but my builds certainly are dictated by the map, so it is best to try and scan in key places (too bad no cloaked obs or super speed ols)
Have you tried just suiciding hellions into his worker line like in TvZ? You should be able to get a nice and heavy hellion count by the time he's able to threaten anything. Immortals alone can't hold like fifteen hellions.
On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote: Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~
http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio.
So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me.
When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1.
Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully.
In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production.
The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it.
An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think).
I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor).
Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)).
I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet.
So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though.
As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
Night, Good post.
You said, "An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold"
I've played against this before as high masters. It is a hard counter to mech which few know. My mistake is making too few starports. If you see this, my commentary to the community is have a minimun of 3 reactor starports and start all air upgrades ASAP.
I had to suicide tanks to try and kill his 3rd and 4th but it was too late. Make sure you scan and identify this build before it gets out of control. It was my fault for not scouting his army composition, but it is diffucult focusing on composition with this very "tanky" build. I'm only TvP mech (regardelss of map) but my builds certainly are dictated by the map, so it is best to try and scan in key places (too bad no cloaked obs or super speed ols)
Have you tried just suiciding hellions into his worker line like in TvZ? You should be able to get a nice and heavy hellion count by the time he's able to threaten anything. Immortals alone can't hold like fifteen hellions.
Heck if he's going pure immortal you can straight up kill him with mass, mass hellions. YOu just need to get super close to them to do max damage.
Lyyna what's your opinion on gas first reactor hellion? I've been trying it recently and it's been really successful. Even if I don't do damage I pin my opponent back in his base so I can macro up pretty freely.
On August 29 2012 19:40 kollin wrote: Lyyna what's your opinion on gas first reactor hellion? I've been trying it recently and it's been really successful. Even if I don't do damage I pin my opponent back in his base so I can macro up pretty freely.
Well, it can be a good build if you control your hellions well. I myself prefer to play safe builds but for a player wanting to really on agressivity it can be really good.
On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote: Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~
http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio.
So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me.
When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1.
Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully.
In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production.
The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it.
An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think).
I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor).
Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)).
I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet.
So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though.
As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
Night, Good post.
You said, "An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold"
I've played against this before as high masters. It is a hard counter to mech which few know. My mistake is making too few starports. If you see this, my commentary to the community is have a minimun of 3 reactor starports and start all air upgrades ASAP.
I had to suicide tanks to try and kill his 3rd and 4th but it was too late. Make sure you scan and identify this build before it gets out of control. It was my fault for not scouting his army composition, but it is diffucult focusing on composition with this very "tanky" build. I'm only TvP mech (regardelss of map) but my builds certainly are dictated by the map, so it is best to try and scan in key places (too bad no cloaked obs or super speed ols)
Have you tried just suiciding hellions into his worker line like in TvZ? You should be able to get a nice and heavy hellion count by the time he's able to threaten anything. Immortals alone can't hold like fifteen hellions.
Well, in this kind of situation, i personally use the power of my 2/early 3 bases setup hellion/ghost/banshee/thors, because it allows you to totally destroy that kind of mass immortal into fast carriers style (and since he has little gateways units, banshees will destroy everything since thors protect them from phenix). The problem with that kind of things is that you cant really tell what is going to happens after the mass immo into bases (carriers, VR, mass immortals,mass gateways, or anything else) so you cant blindly go mass BC to counter the coming mass carriers. So the best way is to punish it or at least play with the same greed,relying on a lots of uppgraded turrets/ghosts/thors to handle the first carriers waves until your BCs are out in good enough numbers.
I tried for the first time this style today on Condemned Ridge (because this map is completely imbalance in tvp biostyle) and even if I made an incredible amount of mistakes (i'm top gold) it worked really well!
I think as protoss the counter is to "dodge" the tanks with harass, multitasks etc... But well... I think they're not used to it. :3
Good stuff, Lyyna, thanks for the guide. I like mech for the same reasons you stated plus I feel like I can understand mech Terran matchups better than the other styles' TvX. Haven't been able to look at your replays yet but particularly looking forward to seeing you use tanks vs Toss successfully. I loved doing that early in my SC2 history but at some point it stopped working for me (it became too easy to die to chargelots etc.). Would be great to have it back. Thanks for making the guide.
New replays pack! http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?qwwbb3741m6q297 Since months now i'm using the thorzain opening, and imo this is at the moment the best one to go into mech. Really safe if you read the protoss well, and doesnt as eco unfriendly as 111 expo
Also little personal update : i stopped streaming because i started my new job and was really tired these days, but now i feel in better shape and i might start to stream again a lot for the next 3 months :D
How do you stop mass expanding from your opponent? Since you say you arent pushing or microing much, how are you going to prevent your opponent putting up ninja expands, and ending up with a way scarier lategame army in the end? (im thinking about some rediculous compositions with max tech and upgrades availible to him, but due to the economy he can get away with it) Dont you think you need to atleast throw some helions around the map, I am sure people with good micro might be able to pull off small advantages here and there no? Or do you simply expand a little faster, and everything works out in the end?
EDIT : to be more specific, what if he comes at you with that scary airtoss army like you mentioned, and your AA isnt ready yet (due to differences in economy), and you dont have anything goliath-like to fall back on?
I am neither a terran nor protoss player, just curious.
On September 29 2012 20:03 []Phase[] wrote: How do you stop mass expanding from your opponent? Since you say you arent pushing or microing much, how are you going to prevent your opponent putting up ninja expands, and ending up with a way scarier lategame army in the end? (im thinking about some rediculous compositions with max tech and upgrades availible to him, but due to the economy he can get away with it) Dont you think you need to atleast throw some helions around the map, I am sure people with good micro might be able to pull off small advantages here and there no? Or do you simply expand a little faster, and everything works out in the end?
I am neither a terran nor protoss player, just curious.
In that kind of situation,i'll -Build of lots of macros CC. Even if i mainly need gas, i can at least get the same (usually a better) mineral income with lower bases count -Expand a lot too (if he's mass expanding he has to cut stuff. And its even more true if he tries to tech at the same time) -Just aim towards a higher tech army, so i can win first battles, giving me some room to expand.
The point here is mainly to be cost effective. I dont care if it's 7 bases vs 4 when he looses twice more ressources than me for example, because at some point he'll have to stop attacking to gather some ressources or get another tech and i'll be able to grab another expand and another and another and then match his eco.
edit : just saw your edit Well, if he wants to mass expand AND tech to airtoss, he has to cut stuff. I scan a lot, so i'll see it and know i can mass expand. The fact is that, after some point,getting more bases isn't really useful to the protoss player because he has to build probes, so after like 3 or 4 mining bases, his other bases are just dead weight. For me i can just take as many bases i want because my scv are only mining gases at some point, i dont need 80 of them to run even 6 or 7 bases. So in this scenario i'll just cut my ground production, and play as greedy too, getting less bases, but more orbitals, a bigger army and a lots of turrets. Even if he's perfectly containing me (which isn't possible if he's mass expanding AND teching to airtoss, i'll just wait until i can have like 160 army supply (+10 repairing scv) on 3/4 bases, and start to secure new bases at this point. He has the choice between figthing versus an army with 30 more supply with a better position, or sacrifice probes too but then if he looses the battle when i try to move out he looses the game because he'll not be able to replenish, while i can just mine with mules
Just downloaded your latest replay pack. I have the replay timer set off so I had no idea I was about to sit and watch an HOUR long game--and that's WITH fast forwarding through parts! Holy cow--this is so awesome! So funny watching Protoss feel so lost as to what to do. Terran mech is so strong, and somehow you survive the Archon toilets o_O
I've been watching the replays and almost all toss players at the end go "How do I fucking beat this?". And some getting really angry they can't beat such an immovable object. I do notice you just sitting back a lot (hence the "immovable object") and let the toss/zerg (mostly toss) just attack into you and almost never really moving out. It's like you make them gg out of frustration. Only after destroying 2 deathballs of carrier/HT/chargelot/archon/mothership or BL armies you move out.
I also see a lot of nice touches like a ghost in the main to emp the mommaship when it tries to recall to the main. Pretty fun stuff.
A question though: why don't you harass more with your 4-5 banshees? Since you scan a lot you could wreck entire mineral lines in a second and just move away when the army is out of position. This is for both your TvP and TvZ replays. Maybe you do it in some cases but I haven't seen it yet.
I dont harass that hard mainly because i'm a really slow player, so i can't really do everything (macroing at home, scouting with hellions,poking with banshees). Also in TvZ i rely on them for defense ,and if they're in his bases, speedlings can just rush towards my base since i use low hellions counts. Same thing in TvP , i need them for defense,but also, i dont want to loose them to any fast "counter" build (blink for defense, or some hidden HT for feedback or whatever)
If i find a spot to harass with these banshees i use it but i'm a defensive player usually
I’m a master terran who mechs in TvP but I don’t really know how to approach a TvP on Antiga: protoss have an easy time getting to four or five base without much opportunities for me to harass (hellions runbys are easy to stop on this map and a few cannons stops the banshees) and at the same time it’s really hard to get past three bases with mech.
I can turtle easily on three bases then either move out (because I only have 3 bases) or let the protoss come. If I don’t screw up the army control the fight should go heavily in my favor but then I feel like I don’t have the economy to remax and kill him or defend a new base.
What’s your usual plan on this map? Maybe getting the center high ground early is a solution, allowing access to the fourth and preventing him from getting it; not sure how easy it is to then defend the three bases behind though.
Usually i'll just try to max on 3 bases , and once im max, just force a battle by taking middle + others expos at once. Then its all about this one battle in that kind of situation... If you loose it,it's over,if you win it, well it depends of what the protoss is doing. If he's trying a carrier switch you can go and kill him,else just to back in turtle with more bases and get your deathball ^^
On October 10 2012 06:41 SCRedditor wrote: What do you mean you can't have more tanks than orbitals? Does that mean I must get the third before i can build a third tank and etc?
Also, the build order on Warden's guide doesn't say when to build the CC, when exactly do you build it?
The tank/orbital thing is an ironic rule that only applies to lategame
About the Warden's build, you get your CC after your starport, but i wouldnt recommand this build anymore, your expo is too delayed (except if you're a really agressive player)
Lol just watched a few of your replays and I love the APM discrepancy. One on Ohana you had an APM of 70 for the whole game while your opponent was at like 270 XD.
On October 11 2012 08:02 YumYumGranola wrote: Lol just watched a few of your replays and I love the APM discrepancy. One on Ohana you had an APM of 70 for the whole game while your opponent was at like 270 XD.
Yup, Lyyna is an incredibly slow player, just like Goody. Quite embarrassing to have such low apm and be high master, but hey, he is winning vs GM's =).
Hey Lynna, just went up against a guy on ladder who I suspect was a student of this thread
As it was one of a handful of games since bronze/silver (now Plat/almost diamond level) that I've dealt with mech in PvT I was scrambling and winging it the whole time. His hellion harass proved to be a little too effective as my FFs and defenses were a little spotty so my income was heavily stifled all game long. This was likely a huge issue in why I lost, but not the only reason. I've read through this thread to get an idea of what composition is the best one for protoss to react with, as my phoenix/templar/immortal/chargelot got destroyed by tank/thor/banshee/PDD.
Anyway, that's not really my real question, but I wanted to ask how you deal with heavy harass. Obviously you talk about having lots of PFs on your later bases and tanks/thors/such back at home never pushing so you'd be pretty safe, but has phoenix harass or WP harass (with colossus, dt, chargelot, storm drops, etc) ever been used to any great effect against you? If my income had been more stable in my game I was really wanting to get up a void ray or two to target a turret as I moved into his base with a WP and dropped SOMETHING (I was leaning towards immortal/colossus, maybe storm since he had ravens at his front and I was already heavily invested into robo tech). Planning on killing a few buildings or scvs and getting out, going for many small pokes rather than one or two more heavy harassment poke.
Would a MS flyby into in-base recall with a carrier/chargelot (or other equally doom-y) army do anything to your endgame scenario? (coupled with aggression on the opposing front this can be pulled off, even against a good multitasker)
You mentioned that you don't harass with hellions much as you feel you are too slow to do this effectively, but if you were going to plan on that in the midgame to stifle the toss' economy/slow his tech/push, would mass(ish) phoenix do much to fend you off? 8-10 phoenix are relatively easy to get up and are useful against banshees so aren't a wasted investment (neither is stargate tech) so this seems like a reasonable response to me (in theory). What are your thoughts?
P.S. I would totally give you a high five for meching against P all the time. I go mass air against Z every PvZ I play and using those strategies/compositions "that just won't work because they aren't viable" and consistently CRUSHING is so fun, and your mech style in TvP feels very much like the cousin of mass airtoss in PvZ, so I salute your belligerent meching!
On October 11 2012 08:02 YumYumGranola wrote: Lol just watched a few of your replays and I love the APM discrepancy. One on Ohana you had an APM of 70 for the whole game while your opponent was at like 270 XD.
Most masters players have an insanely low efficiency with their APM, they just keep spamming differents hotkeys like crazy ... "legit" 200+ Apm players are really rare at my lvl actually (the average being ~~120-150, but still with a not really good efficiency); so looking at apm isn't a good thing there considering i dont spam at all ^^
On October 13 2012 06:26 Kommatiazo wrote: Hey Lynna, just went up against a guy on ladder who I suspect was a student of this thread
As it was one of a handful of games since bronze/silver (now Plat/almost diamond level) that I've dealt with mech in PvT I was scrambling and winging it the whole time. His hellion harass proved to be a little too effective as my FFs and defenses were a little spotty so my income was heavily stifled all game long. This was likely a huge issue in why I lost, but not the only reason. I've read through this thread to get an idea of what composition is the best one for protoss to react with, as my phoenix/templar/immortal/chargelot got destroyed by tank/thor/banshee/PDD.
Anyway, that's not really my real question, but I wanted to ask how you deal with heavy harass. Obviously you talk about having lots of PFs on your later bases and tanks/thors/such back at home never pushing so you'd be pretty safe, but has phoenix harass or WP harass (with colossus, dt, chargelot, storm drops, etc) ever been used to any great effect against you? If my income had been more stable in my game I was really wanting to get up a void ray or two to target a turret as I moved into his base with a WP and dropped SOMETHING (I was leaning towards immortal/colossus, maybe storm since he had ravens at his front and I was already heavily invested into robo tech). Planning on killing a few buildings or scvs and getting out, going for many small pokes rather than one or two more heavy harassment poke.
Would a MS flyby into in-base recall with a carrier/chargelot (or other equally doom-y) army do anything to your endgame scenario? (coupled with aggression on the opposing front this can be pulled off, even against a good multitasker)
You mentioned that you don't harass with hellions much as you feel you are too slow to do this effectively, but if you were going to plan on that in the midgame to stifle the toss' economy/slow his tech/push, would mass(ish) phoenix do much to fend you off? 8-10 phoenix are relatively easy to get up and are useful against banshees so aren't a wasted investment (neither is stargate tech) so this seems like a reasonable response to me (in theory). What are your thoughts?
P.S. I would totally give you a high five for meching against P all the time. I go mass air against Z every PvZ I play and using those strategies/compositions "that just won't work because they aren't viable" and consistently CRUSHING is so fun, and your mech style in TvP feels very much like the cousin of mass airtoss in PvZ, so I salute your belligerent meching!
Some players are able to do some damage with harass,but that's mainly because im a really slow/easily distracted players. the problem is that,early game, if you harass, a good enough player will know he can take units off his front door (since you cant have enough stuff early, except an allin that should get scouted), and later in the game,there is both missile turrets and sensor towers ring, meaning you cant instantly drop, and if you try to destroy turrets, his army will be there in time to defend. I dont really fear harass because it's really hard to do damage against a good defensive player, and i nfact, if the protoss kills a few SCV or stuff i dont care,i'll just turtle harder and wait to get more bases.
Actually my special "addition" to most mech styles is the fact that i always keep a ghost at recall locations (+ sensor + missile towers ) so it's not possible to do it versus a careful player.but if you can snipe his sensor tower/ghost and go in like 30 sec after this, it can a really good thing to do (but then recall out. you cant fight IN his base, your clumped army will die in seconds.=
Phenix is a good idea versus tanks or harass heavy opening. however versus thors opening, going phenix in midgame will kill you, because you'll not be able to handle any thor-based push. But if you are sure your opponent isn't going for thors early, you can afford to take the risk (just make like 4 phenix, more is useless)
IF you really want to harass, i suggest things like storm drops. 1 speed WP with 1 templar, drop it, 2 storms, let it die. it can do enough damage if you get a saturated expansion, the problem is that you have to start doing it before the CC farm construction start.
Hehe,thanks. In fact when i offrace as P, i also love to do some air play versus zergs (Colossus/Carriers for the win. Gateways units are useless!)
Turrets and sensor towers stop warp prisms. Phoenixes can't be to effective since we have thors and turrets. If your mothership is moving out on the map I can kill it before it gets to my main. If it does get there, it's running into turrets.
Random groups of zlots or individual dts are easily stopped by walls, sensor towers, turrets, pfs, etc.
The best form of harass protoss has lategame is using hit and run carrier attacks using recall just as the terran army catches up.
In the midgame protoss can get use out of blink stalkers if they're distracting with a colos army, but again good scouting and the existing defenses typically should suffice to block that.
I personally often use multiple small groups of hellions to harass, and the most effective defense against them are walls of pylons/gateways and maybe some cannons. What you really have to worry about (at least vs me) are nuke harass, especially once I can start to nuke in different spots, and you need a good cannon spread and extra obs to fight those. Those hellions though don't need much multi-task to be useful. Their primary goal is to scout your tech and army composition. Probe kills are a bonus. So you killing them gives me info. Trying to fight hellion harass by harassing yourself isn't a good idea since the bulk of my army is already in a defensive position. Being aggressive with your army might limit the amount of hellions I'm willing to use for this purpose, but won't outright stop them.
Storm drops can be effective if they come soon enough (before the turret perimeter is up), since they do their damage instantly (whereas stalkers or zlots or dts need time to kill shit which gives me plenty of time to go kill them).
As a Protoss, my preferred harassment against Mech play is to get a Stargate (which I try to get against most 1-1-1 variants and factory play in general), make a handful of Phoenixes, and then use a combination of Phoenixes and a Bulldog Rush (Zealots dropped on tanks/thors). While your opponent only has 1-2 Thors and is much more focused on Banshees/Hellions/Tanks at that point in the game, you can magic box a Thor with the Phoenixes and drop Zealots onto it, then flip the Warp Prism over and start warping in more units. The Phoenixes can grav lift Hellions and a nearby Tank or two temporarily while you deal with that 1-2 Thor(s), and then you use the Phoenixes to kill off all the Hellions quickly because they're light units.
It's a really strong timing window, but it's also somewhat map-dependent. Still, the upside is that you can use Phoenixes to tank Turret shots for your Warp Prism and then really abuse air control to get right into his main and start warping in units onto the production. There isn't a lot of anti-air at that stage for a Mech build, and this is an especially devastating 2-base push if you can put an Immortal or two into the Prism before the rush. It won't win every single game on every single map, but it's a pretty nifty timing to get in and potentially do massive damage with clutch grav lifts and a high damage output.
As an aside, I do hope that all this additional Hellion/Tank/Banshee-->macro play starts showing up more in GSL and other tournaments, because eventually it's going to lead to straight mech and I really just enjoy the games that Protoss vs Mech produces. A really good GhostMech army is a mental challenge to fight, and I miss that after dealing with the same exact MMMVG composition every single game.
Lynna and others contributing, just wanted to say "thanks" for the work and explanations put into this thread. I have found Mech to be my favorite (and most survivable) composition since reading this ~4 weeks ago and practicing with it since. I no longer lose to every Gold/Plat Protoss I encounter, and actually have a decent chance at not only survival, but a victory.
Just watched one game TvP, so I don't know if you do this usually, but I would suggest always getting hi-sec auto tracking with this style (the one game I watched so far, you didn't get it). Most every time I do mech (I've been doing it a while vs zerg), I always get this upgrade if I'm depending on my turrets for defense in the main. Might as well use the engineering bay for something. Since a lot of terran don't get this upgrade in general (since they are focusing on infantry upgrades), you can probably catch a lot of players off guard, since they see a missle turret and have an idea in their mind about how far it can attack. Also nice for PFs, and ravens.
I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master)
I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses).
If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech.
It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas.
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master)
I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses).
If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech.
It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas.
what do you guys think?
Give us some backround first, please... What happens if the Protoss deflects all or most of your harassment and you don't kill anything or just a few probes? What about all ins such as 2base colo 1-1? Early 7 or 8 gate?
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master)
I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses).
If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech.
It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas.
what do you guys think?
Give us some backround first, please...What league is this? What happens if the Protoss deflects all or most of your harassment and you don't kill anything or just a few probes? What about all ins such as 2base colo 1-1? Early 7 or 8 gate?
2 base collossi shouldn't be a problem since you already have a starport, factory, reactor and tech lab, so if you go tank/viking early enough you should be able to hold.
The build is very aggressive, so scouting shouldn't be a problem in general. I don't know how it would fare against a 7 or 8 gate, it would really depend on the situation, but it's a very flexible build, so I'm fairly positive that you could find a way to get tanks out in time. But it's really hard to say because the amount of damage your harrassment does can vary from game to game and I'm sure there are situations where you will not do enough damage to hold an early 2 base attack, but protosses are usually playing very defensively when you do this build, they are just pinned to their own base, rarely ever do I get all-inned because the build puts them into a purely defensive mindset (they see banshee and mass hellion and just try to defend as good as they can). Now that I think about it, I even held off a 2 base collossus timing before, I transitioned into bio in that game. But you should be able to hold with mech aswell, just make tanks and vikings (switch factory and starport so that you have your starport on your reactor and factory on the tech lab).
I'm sure there are many situations where this build is weak, certain timings etc... but it's a very aggressive opening so that's the price you have to pay I guess.
Yeah it's not really a mech opening, it's just an aggressive tech build. It actually transitions into bio better than mech (because bio can make use of the extra minerals from the 3rd cc, and can actually defend fast 3base; whereas mech would be too stretched thin). It's not guaranteed to do damage; protoss are well-accustomed to defending 1base tech aggression by terran by now. This doesn't mean it's a bad build; because it is an ok build; but it's not a staple build you use in every ladder game. The problem lies in that there are better openings that get us in a position where we can actually play macro/management mech.
Btw, if your only scouting is with an scv to and from their main, 1gas can indicate 5gate voidray all-in. I haven't seen that build used in a very long time, but that doesn't mean it can't work if people don't suspect it. Except on certain maps they have to proxy the stargate for it to be effective. They use the voidray to warp 5zlots into your main from a pylon outside, and the first warp is 5 zlots. From there they can make a few stalkers as well, or make additional voidrays instead. Additionally they can just get 2nd gas the moment your scv leaves. Just because the build isn't optimum doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. I've had protoss who show me 1gas and get 2nd moment I leave and go blink all-in (which would devastate your hellion opening). So if you use this build you have to really stay on top of scouting.
Nightmarjoo's analysis is good. This kind of opening isn't mech-specific, and can transition both in bio and mech.
The problem with agressive openings is that there is big timing windows allowing your opponent to hurt you if you aren't doing enough damage, and these days protoss are good at defending it. But it's a good build to throw in a boX for example,especially if your opponent things you are a defensive/macro player
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master)
I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses).
If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech.
It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas.
what do you guys think?
I think this would really struggle versus blink stalker play. Hellions get owned by stalkers and banshees don't do to good versus blink stalkers. IDK just theorycrafting but have you ever gone up against blink stalkers with this build?
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master)
I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses).
If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech.
It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas.
what do you guys think?
I think this would really struggle versus blink stalker play. Hellions get owned by stalkers and banshees don't do to good versus blink stalkers. IDK just theorycrafting but have you ever gone up against blink stalkers with this build?
Hi DBS :D
If I see the protoss double gas (which indicates 1 base all-in or at the very least sentry heavy play) I go marine/tank/banshee/raven (standard 111) and can either 1 base all-in myself or take an expo and defend with siege mode. The only 1 base all-in I had alot of trouble against so far was proxy void ray, against blink stalkers I rush to siege mode and either expand or 1-1-1 all-in with banshee/raven and marines + siege tanks.
I just recently started working on this build so I only got in around 20 TvPs practising this opening, it's still relatively new and inspired by Polt's hellion banshee play in GSL but I tried to change it in a way to allow for safer play and more flexibility (I'm not saying my build is "better" than Polt's far from it, but Polt's build is auto-loss to any sort of stargate opening or blink stalkers - like you said - I tried to change the build in a way to allow for it to adapt to protoss all-ins.)
maybe you can try it a few times because you are obviously much better than me? I mean it's worth a try, so far I have done really well with this build. TvP was my worst matchup by far but ever since I started doing this build I only lost 2-3 games (wrong reaction, still inexperienced with the build order, bad execution - like I said I'm only mid master)
Basically: I scout 1 gas -> Reactor Hellion/Banshee I scout 2 gas -> I go reactor marine /tank / raven or banshee (depending on wether or not I'm facing dts).
But yeah it's pretty hard to hold off early blink stalkers with this, but once you have siege tanks in siege mode it's not even that hard anymore and you can double expo.
It doesn't even matter if the protoss expands, all that matters is if you scout 1 or 2 gas. Even if you scout 1 gas and get 4 gated hellion/banshee can hold that off (but if you scout 2 gas you cant do the hellion/banshee opening, it's auto-loss vs blink stalkers or void rays).
But yeah I would love for you to try the build and maybe let us know what happened, because you are actually good and will probably find a few flaws with the build here and there and I'm sure you can do a better job perfectioning it than I can.
edit: The strength of this opening is the flexibility I feel. You can either go hellion/banshee or marine/tank, it depends on gases of the protoss.
Oh yeah and I forgot to mention. Polt takes his second gas very early, with how I changed the build you just stay on 1 gas for a longer period of time, it let's you gather more minerals and expand earlier. They way Polt does it it's a very hard all-in, I was so fascinated by the build and thought that this could easily be used to transition into mech and be made more flexible by altering the build in case you scout double gas (Polt did this vs an FE, so maybe he already took this into consideration and he would have done it just like I did. I hope we can see more of Polt's TvP games with his version of this build, I would love to see what his response vs blink stalkers is, but like I said we only have 1 vod of him doing this build, so I tried to work with the build and see what's possible if the protoss responds differently from the protoss in the VOD vs polt).
edit2: And like nightmarjoo said, it can transition into Bio but also Mech. It might not be an ideal opening for Mech, but I personally have a lot more success vs protoss doing an aggressive opening rather than sit in my base. So I don't know maybe I should make a different thread for this build, because I use it as a mech opening (mainly mech, sometimes bio) but it can also be used as a bio opening (or would be a better bio opening). I mean this build is a style on it's own because it can either transition into a 1-1-1 all-in, bio or mech, depending on what you scout. But like I said I don't have any information on what Polt's reaction to certain all-ins would be because he only used the build once (very recently in the GSTL). I'm just trying to take his build and see what you can do with it.
It's very possible that Polt used his version of this opening as a gamble, I'm trying to see what is possible with this opening and if the flexibility is enough to make it a safe opening with the option to expand, harrass, defend or all-in-.
On October 16 2012 05:52 Lyyna wrote: Nightmarjoo's analysis is good. This kind of opening isn't mech-specific, and can transition both in bio and mech.
The problem with agressive openings is that there is big timing windows allowing your opponent to hurt you if you aren't doing enough damage, and these days protoss are good at defending it. But it's a good build to throw in a boX for example,especially if your opponent things you are a defensive/macro player
This is what I'm getting at, I'm sure pros like DBS will find good use for it in a boX series and I personally (for myself) try to use it as my opening on the ladder and am working on responses to certain all-ins I'm facing. I will definitely take nighmarjoo's response about the 1 gas void ray all-in into consideration and see how it fares against that given that I can scout it and make marines in time. But like he already said, nobody ever does this anymore so it might take a couple hundred games until I actually face that again XD
i find it difficult when people call thor banshee "mech". Mech refers to the BW style of using tank vulture (the sc2 equivalent of hellion tank), This is a factory, starport hybrid that relies on the thor to take dmg and the banshees to deal it. Anyways my point being this sort of composition isnt relying on factory based units but it based upon a hybrid of starport factory units which mean you upgrade only half your army making your army much weaker in the later stages of the game relative to compositions where upgrades cover all you units(bio, or factory mech)
This composition is energy based army though and as such i feel its much weaker then the regular mech style of play. You sacrifice upgrades that cover your whole composition in addition to having a feedbackable army. I have played with this style though and do think it works in a number of situations that are based on timings.
that thread isnpired me to try mech in TvP, im not so good and maybe its working because I play vs bad protoss ( im high plat on the EU ladder) my varation is going 1 rax FE -> double gas -> hellion banshee with cloak. If I see something weird going on with my scv scout i can drop 2 more rax and pamp out marines to hold it off. also to you can transtion from those 3 rax to either bio or mech, using those 3 rax later on for ghost. the strongest thing about this build is the map control and the pinned down postion the protoss get into,also he cant hide any tech since my constant harass provide scouting. I can take fast 3rd and 4th and he cant leave his base to punish it in fear of hellion / banshee harass.
I think the banshee is undervalued - if you keep making banshee you kinda force the protoss going for alot of stalker witch is not ideal vs mech. banshee viking combo is real pain in the ass for the protoss to deal ,since you can snipe his obs with the vikings makes your banshee even more deadly,it limits his immortal count and overall make his compastion less ideal.
to add insult to injury , since TvP is so bio dominant , protoss players got so used to play vs bio , they auto poiliting the build , going mech shake them up and put them in weird spot to be and not knowing how to react, that alone makes them make mistakes , macro less well and can sometimes just out right win games ( I had more than one game that I killed around 10-20 probes with harass and forcing the protoss to all in me with everyhing he had since he didnt know what to do)
On October 16 2012 12:32 okarchaic wrote: i find it difficult when people call thor banshee "mech". Mech refers to the BW style of using tank vulture (the sc2 equivalent of hellion tank), This is a factory, starport hybrid that relies on the thor to take dmg and the banshees to deal it. Anyways my point being this sort of composition isnt relying on factory based units but it based upon a hybrid of starport factory units which mean you upgrade only half your army making your army much weaker in the later stages of the game relative to compositions where upgrades cover all you units(bio, or factory mech)
This composition is energy based army though and as such i feel its much weaker then the regular mech style of play. You sacrifice upgrades that cover your whole composition in addition to having a feedbackable army. I have played with this style though and do think it works in a number of situations that are based on timings.
TLDR: this is sky mech, not mech
Nonsense. Mine and Lyyna's overarching styles are identical despite using very different builds. I delay my ports for a long time usually. The way you use what you have is what makes it mech, not what you make.
Additionally, it's sc2 mech, not bw mech. The two aren't at all similar. True sc2 mech is only possible given the mule/orbital command. Even Lyyna's build however is not "thor/banshee". He uses thors and banshees to get through the midgame so that he can capitalize on the lategame strengths of mech. You can do this without thors or banshees if you'd like.
Also, if you're getting feedbacked you're doing it wrong. Early on you have hellion/tank and maybe cloaked banshees and/or ghosts. Later on you have those things + many cloaked ghosts.
Lastly, you don't need to make a single air unit (besides ravens) depending on the game scenario. I often have scrappy, long games where I can't possibly afford battlecruisers, but it's ok since he can't possibly afford carriers. Just because the build can use banshees for support doesn't make it "sky mech". "Sky mech", if indeed such a style is at all viable, relies exclusively on air units for the main army, using other units only for support.
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master)
I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses).
If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech.
It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas.
what do you guys think?
Yeah the 1-1-1 is pretty hit and miss. Either the protoss is in position or he isn't. The ball is in his court. Of course the terran needs some micro, but helion and even banshee micro is not impossible without sacrificing too much macro. I have tried both banshee marine helion style or medivac marine helion at the 6 min mark and it is 50/50 really as far as evening it up or pulling ahead (or falling behind). Otherwise it is a delayed marine/raven/Tank/banshee and/or Medivac push on a delayed natural expansion. My two cents with that.
I could see a Thor/Banshee transition at that point, but I always find myself going back to bio. I find siege mode is ineffective mid to late game so why bother researching it unless I am doing an early-mid game all in play (or defend a late two base all-in toss push)? I might build a couple of tanks to hold off protoss counters with auxilliary stalker support but no siege needed. Plus Thor/Banshee is not exactly tank heavy.
The matchup is still the most exciting by far, but it is what it is. Use the early tech to pull ahead. Stay ahead with your bio ball, obviously having a good idea if he is prioritizing colossi or templar early since you pressured and scouted coincidentally. That's what it boils down to for me. Maybe I am just overplaying the game.
And a quick side note, while I enjoyed mech in BW (obviously), it wasn't just terran that had two completely distinct outlets for a ground army. I remember reaver/corsair being a legitimately viable build against zerg. Where is that equivalent build in WoL (does colossi drop work in PvZ?)? Why not give protoss two completely distinct ground compositions without spamming from warp gates? Just to be fair about it.
On October 16 2012 12:32 okarchaic wrote: i find it difficult when people call thor banshee "mech". Mech refers to the BW style of using tank vulture (the sc2 equivalent of hellion tank), This is a factory, starport hybrid that relies on the thor to take dmg and the banshees to deal it. Anyways my point being this sort of composition isnt relying on factory based units but it based upon a hybrid of starport factory units which mean you upgrade only half your army making your army much weaker in the later stages of the game relative to compositions where upgrades cover all you units(bio, or factory mech)
This composition is energy based army though and as such i feel its much weaker then the regular mech style of play. You sacrifice upgrades that cover your whole composition in addition to having a feedbackable army. I have played with this style though and do think it works in a number of situations that are based on timings.
TLDR: this is sky mech, not mech
1) This is not BW. Bw things stay in BW, and in fact BW mech included air as well (hi science vessels) which was an essentiel component of lategame. was it called skymech?
2) This style isn't "thor banshee". Did you read the guide or watch any replay?i stay on 1 port for 15/20 minutes, and i usually stop thors after 4...
3) When people talk about biomech or marine/tank in TvZ for example,that includes marine,tank,thors,marauders, vikings... and for people it's "obvious" to include all these things in the name "marine/tank". I want the same thing to happens to mech, it's stupid to see people acting like this with one style and not with another.
If you want to be accurate,it's a mech style, transitionning into skymech if possible.... But no, this is not a "thor/banshee" skymech style (if you think it is..read the guide 3 or 4 more times)
I dont sacrifice uppgrade. I constantly uppgrade from my armory, and add another one when starting air uppgrades. The "energy based army" is unavoidable when playing terran, bio as well is relying on ghosts and medivacs... There was also a lot of discussions on the thread about Ghostmech (the said "energy based army") and pure mech play.
I'll just assume you didnt really put much efforts into reading the guide/watching replays...
I'm trying to do this strategy, but even when i'm maxed, my maxed nech army loses to his standard protoss army. Even when the protoss doesn't know im going mech and does standard collosus with ht with zealots, I still manage to lose my whole army extremely cost ineffectively. I must be doing something terribly wrong, because in the replays, Lyyna manages to trade 10k cost units for 30k units.
Can someone tell me what is the correct composition to aim for, I think I'm building too much/ too little of some stuff. Maybe I have too many tanks vs a zealots heavy composition, so I splash damage my own guys a lot? Or I'm missing something.
also, i noticed that lyyna likes to start long distance mining the next base as soon as current base has 16 workers on minerals, is this optimal?
also, it seems that the protoss like to contain me on 3 bases on antiga and its really hard to secure the far away 4th or the gold in this position.
Hi, I've been a lurker on these forums for almost a year now and I just wanted to say thank you to Lyyna and the other people in this thread who convinced me to try TvP mech. It's working out really well for me (granted I'm only high plat). I saw on your fb that you are going to start streaming again, props for that. GJ
Please continue to update the guide with new meta and patch changes when you can and it would be really interesting to hear your thoughts on other matchup's mech styles.
On November 11 2012 13:09 SCRedditor wrote: I'm trying to do this strategy, but even when i'm maxed, my maxed nech army loses to his standard protoss army. Even when the protoss doesn't know im going mech and does standard collosus with ht with zealots, I still manage to lose my whole army extremely cost ineffectively. I must be doing something terribly wrong, because in the replays, Lyyna manages to trade 10k cost units for 30k units.
Can someone tell me what is the correct composition to aim for, I think I'm building too much/ too little of some stuff. Maybe I have too many tanks vs a zealots heavy composition, so I splash damage my own guys a lot? Or I'm missing something.
also, i noticed that lyyna likes to start long distance mining the next base as soon as current base has 16 workers on minerals, is this optimal?
also, it seems that the protoss like to contain me on 3 bases on antiga and its really hard to secure the far away 4th or the gold in this position.
Could you add a replay so i can see what's the problem?
Usually, your composition should be (if you use the same opening/midgame plan as me) : On 2 bases : Thors,hellions,ghosts,banshees. 1 rax, 2 fact, 1 port Midgame (3+ Bases) : ~~4 thors, ~~8 ghosts, constant production of banshees/hellions/tank (1 reactored fact, 3 TL fact producing hellions when out of gas, 1 port) gives you a balanced army. If he goes really heavy on zealot/army , add more thors. Lategame : same ideas, except you want to trade Hellions, banshees, and scv for more ravens and as much BCs as possible!
About long distance mining : It's imo a personal preference. i do it because i want to avoid using all my minerals too fast, so i want to start mining "others" bases asap
On November 12 2012 00:23 CenturionSC2 wrote: Hi, I've been a lurker on these forums for almost a year now and I just wanted to say thank you to Lyyna and the other people in this thread who convinced me to try TvP mech. It's working out really well for me (granted I'm only high plat). I saw on your fb that you are going to start streaming again, props for that. GJ
Please continue to update the guide with new meta and patch changes when you can and it would be really interesting to hear your thoughts on other matchup's mech styles.
hehe you're welcome Yeah, im updating it and im preparing guides for other matchups as well ^^
Hi! I am a diamond player that wants to go mech in all match ups. What do you think is a good number of SCVs? I always end up making over 80, and I think it takes a little too much of my supply.
On November 17 2012 20:02 ExpectCreep wrote: Hi! I am a diamond player that wants to go mech in all match ups. What do you think is a good number of SCVs? I always end up making over 80, and I think it takes a little too much of my supply.
70, which on 3base if you have 3 on each geyser is approximately 16 (2 full rows of scvs in selection display) scvs at 3 bases (so that's an easy way to quantify your scv count in-game). A few more scvs isn't bad if you have the room to make extra orbitals with the extra income. Never go above 80.
I've really just been lurking on the Mech vs P threads lately, mostly because I've just been going with HotS. But I second Lyyna's recommendation, that's a really interesting read and anyone whose been experimenting with Mech vs P will be able to relate. Very surprised to see you ended up with the 2 port banshee!
As a toss (top plat/low dia), i faced this style once in ladder, i defeat it, but barely, because of a rude mistake of my opponent. What do you think is the best answer, once scouted ? I tried to harass a lot but there was so many turrets...
Usually, in midgame, you need a mix of immortal/chargelot/Templar. Your goal is to use a minimal amount of units to defend/put pressure (by always being at my front door for example) while going for a carriers/templar/immortal force.
You need to kill as much gas units as possible in midgame, in order to slow down my switch towards a BC/ghost/tank army. Dont aim your storms at my hellions, just chain storms on my tanks , while tanking damage with cheap zealots and beefy immortals. If you can get a couple good storms on my tankline, you can easily kill 4+ tanks, with some ghosts/banshees (depending of my positionning/what happened in the fight).
In lategame, it's all about getting a good number of carriers with a few immortals and HT, feedbacking my BCs, using your tanks to clean tanks/PF, and carriers for everything else. I dont think archons are good to make in lategame because i get a lot of ghosts, and except if you split perfectly, your archons are basically going to get 1 shotted (and their damage aren't that good versus mech).
(Of course this is only for my own defensive playstyle. There is a lot of differents mech builds/styles)
Archons are still pretty meh units when ghosts aren't around because Thors do huge potshots to them, and they also get basically no bonus damage. Most of the power of Archons lies in tanking shots and AoEing clustered biological units. Immortals generally do a better job of tanking shots and the AoE isn't really going to help against ground mech units. Now, for adding some extra splash onto a cluster of Vikings or threatening to do so? That's a different matter. 2-3 Archons can help a lot when things go to the sky and you have to protect your Carriers more from Vikings. They also make more sense with that composition because Interceptors are a fantastic mineral sink and Archons/HTs are a great gas sink.
If you want to fight a straightforward battle against mech, the best bet is to match factory and starport units with robo and stargate units. I agree with Lyyna about carriers, immortals, and some support casters. I like some HTs for feedback (and storm as a threat to clusters of units), but I also think it's smart to keep 1-2 sentries with your army for guardian shield. It's worth 2/4 supply, especially considering that BCs are DPS-based units, Vikings shoot 2 shots, Banshees shoot 2 shots, and Thors shoot either 2 shots or a spray at air.
I believe the best way to fight mech isn't a straightforward, even-food even- tech battle, though. The best way to fight it is to draw the army out of position, go take a Warp Prism or two and drop immortals on the factories. Then you flip the prism over and warp in a ton of units and kill as much of the production as possible. Camping the production is always strong against terran, but it's best against mech because its power units are so slow.
Thinking about it some more, the warp prism is probably the best tool (in a vacuum) for fighting mech. Even as just a shuttle, dropping units onto tanks directly (aka the bulldog rush) is very strong. And it's a mineral-only unit, but it's not as easily melted as a pair of zealots, so it's a good use of that resource before you start making carriers and a lot of anti-hellion cannons. More than just thinking about your composition and your goals, it's also important to think about how your money naturally flows in, how much of each resource you get, and how to balance out that proportion. Prisms are a pretty good mineral sink and a great way to make zealots and immortals (your best units against ground mech, if they can get into position) as effective as possible. The fact that they also turn upside down is just icing on the cake.
That's a way I feel the protoss player can take advantage of 2-3 base mech compositions that involve siege tanks or even thors as their primary power. The amount of air being used is what really changes the equation, though...but the tactics are still useful, regardless of what you have to do to compensate for those air units from the terran side.
Is there any special way you deal with vortex? Turtling for lategame automatically lures toss to tech for whatever he wants. I read your guide once and maybe you mentioned it and I just can't remember.
On December 10 2012 02:15 Lyyna wrote: Yeah, i play the beta, and i'm actually planning to totally switch on HOTS actually (better balance, funnier overall)
I'm going to release a replay pack once i'm able to get better builds at a better lvl (i didn't played a lot so i'm still diamond actually)
On December 10 2012 02:15 Lyyna wrote: Yeah, i play the beta, and i'm actually planning to totally switch on HOTS actually (better balance, funnier overall)
I'm going to release a replay pack once i'm able to get better builds at a better lvl (i didn't played a lot so i'm still diamond actually)
Just saw your Vods on daily motion.Very nice vs Abomb and is worth to try it work.I hope you release some replays as soon as possible from HotS
On December 10 2012 02:15 Lyyna wrote: Yeah, i play the beta, and i'm actually planning to totally switch on HOTS actually (better balance, funnier overall)
I'm going to release a replay pack once i'm able to get better builds at a better lvl (i didn't played a lot so i'm still diamond actually)
Can't wait!, Looking forward to them =] =]
I finally reached Masters few days ago so i'm starting to get good quality games
On December 10 2012 02:15 Lyyna wrote: Yeah, i play the beta, and i'm actually planning to totally switch on HOTS actually (better balance, funnier overall)
I'm going to release a replay pack once i'm able to get better builds at a better lvl (i didn't played a lot so i'm still diamond actually)
Can't wait!, Looking forward to them =] =]
I finally reached Masters few days ago so i'm starting to get good quality games
No matter the waulity man.We need your replays xD!!! Wanna see you delaing with the new blink+MScore and everything else.Please just post some TvP,so we at least got something to begin with...
I don't think the builds will change much for t in hots, what changes is what you scout for, when you scout, and how you adapt to what you scout. And you can get all of the above out of watching your own replays.
I have been expecting updates in this thread after the Ravens seeker missile research requirement removal, but didn't see any posting about this thus far. Haven't tried this TvP mech strat yet -- has this late patch further boosted the power of this build?
On December 24 2012 07:54 1031prime wrote: I have been expecting updates in this thread after the Ravens seeker missile research requirement removal, but didn't see any posting about this thus far. Haven't tried this TvP mech strat yet -- has this late patch further boosted the power of this build?
Well, i basically stopped playing WoL , so i dunno about the effect of this patch, but i don't see it changing the matchup, since i don't get a lot of ravens early (just one early game for pdd/detection, and sometimes a 2Nd migdame vs mass stalkers. I only add a tons to fight air)
Seeker isn't good vs non-stacked-air protoss, especially without blanket EMPs. The splash and damage both aren't very good. Even with EMP it can't do a whole lot vs the bulk of their army, and isn't particularly good vs workers either. If you knew it was safe to move raven out, and knew you can't lose to a stalker-heavy attack soon (and thus need pdd energy) you could harass probes a little bit with it, but you probably won't get more than 5 kills.
Seeker matters more in tvt and tvz. I'd say getting an early first raven is more justified now, since seeker can really good vs mutas, infestors, or banelings (ie every single possible scenario). With mech in particular, an early raven in tvt is even better-- now it's useful even if your opponent wasn't smart enough to not go marine/tank early on.
as a dedicated worshipper of the 4th race i ask for your help and advise...
I have been playing exclusively mech in tvp for about 2 months now and managed to kick some serious ass with it. Mid masters no problemo, but encountered some reoccurring theme in my play that keeps bugging me; Most protosses i play against open up with gate core nexus gate robo or gate nexus core robo gate etc and then pretty much follow up with as many observers as i manage to force, typically 3 and a bunch of cannons, to go straight into colossus + upgrade play. me being an in your face type of player (i dont really get this all turtle style stuff) and them always doing the same build got me quite proficient at abusing it with various stupid and exploitive builds such as 13 gas concussive bunker pressure, 111 hellion drops etc.. however I always end up at the very same midgame that relies heavily on banshees for mapcontrol. actually the combination is quite nice, you open up marauder pressure, that forces zeal stalker and the first thing he builds out of his robo will be an immortal. then you follow up with hellion banshee, that forces more stalkers and suddenly he has these 20-30 useless stalkers against my tanks. guess what tanks are best against in the protoss arsenal ^^ stalkers. back on topic though... i wonder why the toss doesn't cancel out on stalker colossus in favor of an early 3rd nexus with a cannon defence and a stargate as he will see with his first observer that i have a 111 with an expo, an armory and more factories coming up and will be in a defensive position until at least my 3rd is running and i am nearing max out. observer play with some fenix and cannons, in the midgame, to deter banshees would be ridiculously effective and he would be able to get an immortal for every 2 stalkers he cuts aswell as having a shorter tech route to T3 air. The thought of my opponent having 15 immortals supported by chargelots and a carrier by 15 minutes, while i dont have any mapcontrol, scares the shit out of me. Usually i am the one dictating the pace and tech of the game but that is because the toss reacts poorly to my tech and tries to press 800 gas into coloss tech. i just want to know what would happen and how my game would have to change if i were to encounter someone who would not do this, i dont want to call it that way but its probably true, mistake.
How do i play mech if i cannot rely on banshees for mapcontrol?
Hey guys! I've tried to play mech in all my match-ups thanks to this guide, and have had pretty good success in plat league (yeah i'm a noob compared to you ^^").
But well I was wondering which maps you would veto on the 1v1 ladder as a mech player?
On February 10 2013 22:06 Avendil wrote: Hey guys! I've tried to play mech in all my match-ups thanks to this guide, and have had pretty good success in plat league (yeah i'm a noob compared to you ^^").
But well I was wondering which maps you would veto on the 1v1 ladder as a mech player?
Thanks!
Your not a noob. And no need to feel platinum is bad. We discuss strategy and not what league you are in. Even players at lower leagues can find good strategies. Master + can usually perform the strategy discussed better because of better mechanics and other stuff.
I veto the map: Korhal City. I hate that the ramp is too wide. (That's not the main reason) And I don't like the destructible debris on the 3rd base.
EDIT: I just realized I voted a HotS map. Not sure if it is in WoL. Sorry about that. Would be curious to know which map Lyyna vetoed.
EDIT #2: I regret what I said. I actually liked this map. Played another game on it. I totally misunderstood the map. It's one of my favorites now. I bet a lot of mech players like it too.
Well actually i didn't play on WOL since..hm, 3 months, so i can't tell anything about maps on it, and i don't have any veto on HOTS cuz well.. it's just a beta and i wanna train every map ^^
TBH I think korhal city is the best mech map, especially for tvp. You can defend 4 bases with 5 planataries and tanks. It's really good for building up a bc deathball.
This is a great guide. I've been incorporating mech into my play style a lot more lately. It's basically impossible to lose a TvP when going tank heavy mech on maps like Ohana and Entombed Valley.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT : With HOTS being out, The guide is no longer viable : the openings can't handle things like oracle or some MSC push, and the no-viking play has a really hard time versus tempests. It'll probably take time but i'll do a new guide for HOTS ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Crowned : For me, at the end of the beta, at high master lvl : -TvZ : 12 rax 15 gas, CC, fact -> reactor hellion / banshee (usually 4/2), 1 armory, 3rd cc, 2 fact, second armory when +1 attack complete -TvT : 12 rax 15 gas CC fact -> marine tank viking into mech. Sometimes 1 rax CC 2 gas -> 111 -TvP : i don't have a staple mech opening for this one yet, but my choices are 12 rax 13 gas fact, continuous marines production, 1 hellion then tank, cc when possible : can handle everything, but have a hard time versus everything 12 rax 15 gas fact CC : same, slightly greedier CC first or 1 rax FE into 2 rax before tech : fake bio play, allows for some good defense versus most agressive play with 2 rax + 1 fact
We appreciate whatever you can come up with for HOTS stable mech TvP build. There are some very unique benefits that Terran gained in the matchup that comes to bear in the midgame and lategame.
* Speed medivac widow mine drops. 1/1/1 opening. Disrupts economy, possibility for great damage. Also, at this stage in metagame development, a little too predictable to guarantee damage worthwhile of the cost. * More useful hellbat protection for the core siege tank line. Form a physical wall from chargelots that is replaceable and tanky. I've got some replays demonstrating the technique but I'm sure anyone skeptical can get easy practice with it. * Widow mine protection for siege tank line. Clumped void rays die. Very useful after observer/oracle snipes from vikings and thors. Fills in some gaps that WoL mech had (even as HOTS opened up many more gaps)
New Disadvantages: * Tempest (I didn't have enough exposure on Beta to feel out the vik-based responses). They snipe expensive stuff. From very great ranges. * Oracle. Vision, snipe capability, and speed. More defense necessary at home (turrets) and with army (thors close enough to flanks * Protoss 3base turtling to deathballs with tempest range. With mech, crushing the protoss apart from the uncaught WMD(Widow Mine Drop) is really off the table. From my experience, the terran can semi-reliably prevent a timely 4th base (7th and 8th gas) with siege positioning and hellion/WMD drop threats, but it can still form.
Summary: Turtly openings that support mech midgame play off a 2base start are developing. I don't think an efficient safe opening into double armory mech is too far off. Siege Tanks with both hellbat and widow mine support gained in midgame power. Lategame tempest, as you remark, fails before tempests since the initial build lacked vikings in favor of battlecruisers.
Hm, i don't know, i think (at least in this game )your main problem is a macro one : you do lack a lot of key units at some points, and the build was made in such a way that you get these key units right in time to deal with most threats at the right timing (for example, 4 thors to hold your 3rd, then adding tanks + ghost when fights scale increase, making thors worse because of their size, + banshee number always increasing for heavy support fire A bit slow/innacurate with EMPs A bit off in terms of positionning (for example, in front of your PF with your whole army, meaning your PF doesn't absord any damage) I can check if there is a really big other factor if you have other replays
This is, overall, the great weakness of this play : you have litterally no room for mistakes. You can't afford to slip in terms of macro or micro, and your positionning has to be perfect.
edit : for anyone wondering, it is a WoL replay (thor with energy!)
Okay, so what exactly do you mean by macro? It seems to me that I kept my money low and built my stuff at the right time. Btw, here's another replay. http://drop.sc/368643
Btw, I also do your TvT build (from the replay pack). It works pretty well, but what do you do when someone uses planetary fortress and turret to turtle while massing ravens... like this. http://drop.sc/368644
TvP : A few things : your first hellion should always be sent for scouting In the last fight, you should have focus fired his immortal/colossi with your banshees/tanks. Also, you need to have scv to repair You shouldn't left in this situation. You had 3 BCs about to pop, a lot of production, he has little zeal/colossus left, meaning 1) he can't kill your PF 3rd with all your scvs repairing 2) he's likely going to continue on the robo/zeal way, and BCs just destroy it obviously
One of the reason for which your money is low is because you skip a lot of SCVs whenever you are under pressure. It ends in a lower income, and also, you tend to mess with your number of prod facilities. Overall, the problem is that your macro isn't fluid . You also skip a lot of Banshees/ghost because you have too much factories compared to your income
What could help you is to practice a lot the build in singleplayer : it'll help you doing it under pressure by having all the patterns of it ready in your head
TvT : The main problem is how hard he outexpanded you. In this scenario, once you spot his mass expand stylel, put hellions at every base, and use a handful o tanks/thors (3 thors destroy PFs kinda fast) to destroy most on the field To fight this army, there is a lots of options : vikings, ghost, raven, thor, BC.. you can use any combination of these. The only important thing in the end is micro'ing against missile (pre-concave, and then kiting back until missiles run out of fuel) or splitting hardcore
If you want, you can try to reach me in game (Lyyna#896)
On December 21 2013 10:07 SCRedditor wrote: My main question is- why did my army lose to his army? Seems to me that the position was about as good as it gets.
Another question I have is what time should I be getting my 3rd?
Also, how many factories should I have? When should I add more?
I have to admit that, since i didn't play WoL for a year (switch to the HotS beta), i'm not really sure. A few things -A bit slow on EMP/PDD -Lack of focus fire on big units with tanks/banshee -No repairing scv I'll try to find if there is anything else, but it's been a long time since i last played that.. If you want, we maybe can try to start the replay before this fight and i'll see if i can do something
The 3rd is taken usually when your opponent takes his own, or if you feel that you can safely defend it : there is no clear timing, but usually it ends up being around 12-15 minutes
Usually, on 2 bases, you start with 2 fact, adding a third one when you switch to tank production. I stay on 1 reactor fact all game long, and the number of TL fact in the midgame is usually between 2 & 4 - but only add some when you start to float resources , even with the constant production of key units
On December 22 2013 03:28 SCRedditor wrote: Okay, then when do I switch to tank production? Is it after 4 thors? Also, when should I make more thors? Or is it just all tanks and only 4 thors?
Usually, after 4 thors, you can switch to tanks. Make more thors if -Air switch, and you don't have the time to get your own BC fleet -Too open maps without possibilities to use tanks versus an opponent going heavy on zealots -After a big fight, it's ok to make a bunch of thors, since they're more polyvalent and better in low numbers Otherwise.. tanks
A problem that I keep on having is that once I start adding battlecruisers, it makes my ground army much weaker and the battlecruisers don't seems to help much. Usually what happens is that his army will kill my entire ground army, leaving 3-4 battlecruisers in the air to finish off the opponents zealots/immortals/collosus. After this, the protoss simply warps in ~15 stalkers and kills the battlecruisers.
In this game, your main problems were -Very few ghosts, no cloak -No hellions reproduction after the first big fight So, the BCs didn't really matter : he was able to storm-carpet your ground, and his zealots were extremely efficient. Except if you can max quickly without them, you need to make hellions, as they are extremely good versus zealots, and you need more ghosts overall + cloak. It might be strange and it took me a while to realize, but you really need these hellions, even in the lategame, until you are able to max on gas units, and obviously after a big trade on 3 bases you won't be able to do so
Also, try to be active with your first banshees or hellions: you could have easily killed him around the 12-15 minutes mark kinda easily
Lyyna, this TvP build/style has sweetened a large portion of my SC2 games vs Protoss and I just wanted to thank you for it, it always was a lot of fun!