|
Introduction
Hello Everyone my name is THEPPLsELBOW, High Masters Terran currently 25/7 in this season.
World: #1,118 402 points. Won 25, lost 7 (78.12% wins) Rank 10 of Division Uraj Eta
Region: #477 THEPPLsELBOW
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/316396/THEPPLsELBOW
_____________________
TABLE OF CONTENTS
_____________________
UNDERSTANDING MECH MINDSET
HOW TO HARASS
ARMY COMP
ENGAGEMENTS
BUILD ORDER BENCHMARKS
OPENERS
CLOSING TIPS AND TRICKS + TANK PLACEMENT DIAGRAM
REPLAYS
BATTLE REPORTS AND MORE REPLAYS
===================
Abstract
Playing with Mechanical units in TVP is both fun and invigorating. It combines all the multitasking drop skills learned from playing Bio as well as constant high speed decision making similar to late game TvT, where attention is usually a much more valuable resource than minerals. It incorporates these following units (listed in importance)
CORE
1. Helion
2. Siege Tank
3. Thor
Support
1. Banshee
2. Dropship
3. Raven
4. Viking
5. Ghost
6. Maurauder
As you can see there are tons of support units, you must know when and how to use each and every one of these in order to win.
Unfortunately for Mech, there is no specific timing to end the game, and it is very hard to say when to push. When you do push it is to deal a lot of damage and possibly win the game. When you play mech you should be able to tell yourself, if I push now, and don't fuck this up, I will either win, or be so far ahead with 4-5 bases that I will eventually just push again and win.
Maps to do mech on: Entombed Valley, Shakuras Plateau, Antiga Shipyard, Shattered Temple.
Throughout the game, tell yourself these things
1. My army is always stronger than his army assuming equal supply.
2. My bases are secure(will define secure later) and I will have responses for ANY protoss harassments.
3. My harassment are effective and diligent, in the long run he will be worn down and I will eventually have the economic lead.
4. If he cannot harass effectively, and cannot fight my army efficiently, if I push he will have no other option but lose.
Part 1: Understanding the Mech mindset
Mech is different to playing Bio in the following ways. Instead of your giant bioball dancing around his side of the map doing drops forcing him out of position, mech is more, each player stays on their own side of the map and does their harass, while the core of each person's army is on their side of the map protecting their bases.
The goal of harass is to find out what tech he is doing, set his economy back as much as possible, and mentally drain his will to fight. The key with helion drops and banshee pokes is to always be out there. Never stop harassing. While playing Bio it may be wise to stop harassing once blink stalkers are on the field, no such case for mech.
Usually half your army will be tanks and they will already be posed in a defensive position so your opponent can only deal with your harass, and harass himself.
Part 2: How to harass
HELIONS
1. Fly medivac in corner of base. Run helions in. Run helions after 3-5 probe kills and get out with as little casualties as possible.
2. Fly medivac in corner of base, move medivac to an alternate pickup location, pick up at that spot and drop on the low ground into their natural. Their army must walk around
3. Potshots at zealots/sentries. Later on in the game you will have swarms of 6-12 helions with blue flame. If they are not paying attention to their front for any reason, you will get 3-4 zealot kills, a few sentries, at most you lose is 4 helions. So always poke up, and make him scared.
Summary: trade helions for probes effeciently, suicide helions into units only if you come up favorably. Try not to suicide helions into probes unless you know you can get 8 for 4, or 6 for 3. Also, constant helion drops will tell you the order he builds his
-robo support bay
-twilight
-stargate
you must know his order of tech or else it will be impossible to win
BANSHEES
Always keep a couple behind his base. Kill probes when they aren't guarded. This lets you know a few things.
-When his phoenixes pop (150/100 is a small price to pay to know exactly when he has stargate up)
-If he gets cannons to protect his minerals. You should stop helion dropping after this point, and start expanding.
Part 3: Army Composition
Their are 3 common compositions toss will use to fight mech.
1. Robo twilight double forge:Charge Zealot Blink Stalker collosus(or immortal), Archons and/or DT/HTss.
2. Double robo Immortal Collosus
3. Stargate + Immortal Zealot. (charge later, HT's later)
There are 3 common counters. Listed respectively
1. Helion Tank banshee, 1 raven, double armory, viking(late game only)
2. Helion Tank banshee, 1 or 2 observer sniper vikings and thors
3. Marine(very few ups, no stim, get attack from Ebay and shields if you can afford) Thor(+2 armor asap) Banhsee(only if he goes phoenix) Viking(for voids) ghost(late game only)
Part 4: Engagements
In all engagements, unless he is close to a pylon, do NOT leap frog. Just let your helions die and siege everything right in his face. He will pull back and your banshee/helions will get free kills, maybe enough to even the score. Pull scvs to buffer if you feel that u lost too many helion.
If it is close and your position on his territory is very important: For example right outside his Nat on Shakuras Plateau, you should leap frog tanks and place tanks in staggered position so they do not splash themselves much at all.
1. Launch PDD, focus immortals with banshees, switch targets after shields drained, once all immortal shields drained focus on stalkers or collosus, whatevers doing more damage to you, Shift attack with tanks the collosus first, then stalkers then immortals. Place helions infront of tanks to absorb zealots and tank splash
2. Same as above, have 2 control groups for banshees (5 banshees in each control group) to take down immortal shields BEFORE your tanks shoot the immortals. You need good timing. Shoot stalkers over archons over zealots. If only zealots remain, unsiege, run tanks back, and your next round of helions should finish by now.
3. EMP the HT first, then the Voidrays then the Immortals. Focus thors on voids if they are clumped. Make sure as many helions are in the way of the immortals.
IMPORTANT: Once all voidrays are downed use vikings to harass immediately, he will most likely be doing a tech switch to anything. (Scan to find out)
IMPORTANT: Marines may be in front, anticipate storms, stutter step marines behind thors, allow thors to tank the chargelots.
IMPORTANT: If he has a lot of HT's and you dont' have enough ghosts, magic box banshees and fly over temps, making them storm themselves (good), feedback banshees (very good). This lets your Thors use their 250 MM cannons on any immortal that is shooting at you (very very good) because his HT are too busy feedbacking banshees.
Part 5: Build order benchmarks
Always build an armory after your second factory. No exceptions.
1. You are on 3 base vs Robo twilight double forge. You should have 2 Techlab starports, 2 techlab factories, 1 reactor factory, and 1 factory with either a tech or reactor, depending on his zealot quantity.
2. You are on 3 base vs Double robo. 3 Techlab starports, and a lot of reactor factories nearby to switch into vikings if he switches into stargate.
3. You are on 2 base vs Fast Blink stalkers: Get more maurauders, keep banshees and a few helions at home. Get a raven. Place tanks so that they are about 3-4 range apart from each other inside your base and can cover your eventual third, the entry way into your natural, production, and any other weak spots.
4. You scout double stargate. Double reactor starport immediately. Start getting another armory and get double air upgrades. This toss clearly wants carriers, and a influx of voidrays can spell disaster. Keep scouting for mothership/fleet beacon.
5. You are on 3 base vs 3 base. You start having a large influx of minerals you can't spend. Start spending it on extra orbital commands and planetary 4th and 5ths. Bring 20-25 scvs in your next big push so you can get about an 180 food army (vs their 130 food army).
Part 6 OPENERS
Reactor Expand.
10 depot
12 rax (1marine)
13 gas
14-15reactor
-Pulling SCV's off gas is optional... not recommended)
-Command Center after second depot, bunker before or after CC depending if they are chrono'ing out their units and choosing not to kill your scout scv but instead go straight towards you cause they saw reactor
Either get 3(they expand) or 5,7,9 marines.(if they dont expand, or if they go phoenix) Bunker on the "open" side to wall against void rays. (This protects both supply depots in case you get void ray rushed)
-Factory first 150 after CC
-Tech lab on rax after 3, 5, 7 etc get a few marauders but don't over due it if you don't need them.
-Bunker or 2 infront of natural
Reaper Expand
10 depot
12 rax (no marine)
13 gas
Techlab - Reaper - send to probe line
17 depot
20-21 CC
Check if they are expanding, that will tell you how many maurauders youw ill need
22 Fact (asap)
Get a few marauders if no expand
1 helion then swap with barracks for techlab
siege tank
Part 7 closing tips and tricks
1. Any warpprism = get 2 vikings. Lift barracks to possible drop paths and intercept ahead of times.
2. Constant Immortal drops must be countered by more vikings
3. A turret ring is very effective. No warp prisms, Vikings can quit patrolling and join your army, and any attempt to blink up they will probably lose their obs, and if they blink out they can't come back without their obs.
4. Cloakbanshees own any attempt at a "blink stalker base trade" becaues they will lose their obs attempting to blink up.
5. If protoss for any reason gets to 4 or 5 base. Get air upgrades. Get vikigns. Get a few thors. Snipe obs, pull army back. Send helions into unprotected areas and laugh as they fail to control anything properly.
6. 2 turrets are a must for base 4 and 5 because they WILL harass you with dts. Have vikings if you are ever on 5 vs 5 base to intercept warp prisms.
7. 1 Proxy PF is all you need. Do not build more than 1
8. If you bring scvs in a push you should make Engibays directly infront of your tanks and behind your helions.
9. In a 5 vs 5 base 200 army clash, flank their top and bottom rear with vikings(9) and thor(8) range will destroy any amount (usually they will have 3 obs) with their massive range. Also have 3 seperate control groups for viking pair observer snipers. 1(click ob1) 2(click ob2) 3(click ob3).
10. Once you have 2 or 3 extra OC's, you should add ghosts and more ravens (get anywhere from 4 to 5) in your late game comp. Think about it. A raven and a ghost both cost 2 supply. A raven can block up to 40 stalker shots, and a ghost can deal a triple siege tank blast worth in AOE 2 times being 2/3rds the supply! Cloakbanshees devastate protoss bases late game esp if you snipe their obs before hand. They will fly their obs all the way down to their 5th when you can drop their 4th with helions while distracted.
Some nice tank positioning for securing your third.
Arrows represent tanks that need to move depending on what you are trying to defend.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gWSNX.jpg)
Replays:
http://drop.sc/78507
This replays shows me doing a suggested Reaper expand into siege tank to fight off his 2 base immortal gateway timing. (This will probably be the timing that wrecks most of you in masters, but the trick is to just prepare for it with sim city and bunkers. Usually the protoss will see the bunkers and not even try, which is why I can get away with some of the stuff I do.
The protoss then transitions into 3 base stargate into carriers. I scouted the stargate and immediately added 6 barracks, got +1 infantry weapons, and did a 180 food timing attack where I brought about 70% of my SCVs. (i had a lot of money in the bank at that point due to poor macro but you get the idea..)
http://drop.sc/78510
This replay shows me holding off a 4 gate Warpprism rush using maurauders, helions, scvs and eventually a viking to ward his warp prism off. I then transition into exactly what my build describes getting banshees and helions. I constantly send groups of banshees from the top of his base, drop helions from the side of his base, and run helions into his natural. He eventually slip up and I get 20 probe kills in the main. He then tries to all in me but I had just the right amount of units to hold him off. I expand to the gold and proceed to win the game.
http://drop.sc/78122 (top 8 masters: epic 5 base vs 5 base on shakuras)
http://drop.sc/79510 (top 8 masters, another epic 5 base vs 5 base on shakuras, this time he massed temps so I will show you ghost mech. During lategame, replace all helions with raven/ghost because a raven can give you 150*4 worth of tanking HP for zealots, while a helion only gives you 90. (assuming you don't get feedbacked)
http://drop.sc/78121
http://drop.sc/79538
Here is a replay against a guy who went standard collosus timing from a 1gX. Hel dr was succesful, and shown banshees on purpose to make him defensive, I then took a 3rd. He is about to attack me but my helions dove right in, and killed his single zealot wall in natural. This pulls him back and I get the extra 20 seconds to win the game fending off his attack.
Yes, I tried mech on metal, not recommended for the inexperienced.
http://drop.sc/78120
http://drop.sc/79438 (top 8 masters: How to handle phoenix openings, battle report bottom of page 3 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=297346¤tpage=3#60)
-------battle reports, let me know if you want these here or on the following pages-------
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/65L3o.jpg)
Note double gas
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gv1xH.jpg)
saw him expand 1 gate FE timing
---I CAN NOW PREPARE FOR THE WORST AN IMMORTAL TIMING--------
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sdirs.jpg)
Robo before 2nd and 3rd gateway. Either fast collosus or immortal bust (he knows i mech) So this should set off arlarms
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3IWvB.jpg)
Helion delays push by 5 seconds (every second counts), gives me time to prepare with scvs, and forces him to warp in 2 stalkers in his nat instead of at his proxy pylon
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1i3fL.jpg)
Its now or never
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1Wsdw.jpg)
Fended it off with minimal casualties
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hkHlE.jpg)
Forgot to include these facts.
1. That was a stargate
2. He sent 3 voids to harass immediately after, meaning he had more stargates than just the one i scanned.
3. I started to make 6 barracks and got +1 weapon because I knew i was ahead economically and army wise. He will lose if I pull my scvs.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kPzZP.jpg)
How to not place your barracks
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fjujJ.jpg)
How to handle immortal drops
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f7w7T.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/itpwv.jpg)
He was at 90 probes, suicides a few.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xvU1v.jpg)
Won easily. No worries about basetrade or anything, cause it wouldn't have done shit.
ANOTHER GAME ON ARID
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5zo1n.jpg)
Little things like this make a big difference
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/67qRx.jpg)
So he can find this!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OHjAG.jpg)
However I'm not that guilliable
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VOWTA.jpg)
Well its either blink stalkers or DTs. I fucked up my build and went tank before raven (tank raven counters both blink an DT's so that is my goto build when i see fast twilight).
I went tank first because i paniced thought it was going to be a blink all in cause i did not scout his nat until this scan.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n6fuc.jpg)
And I pay dearly, I lose a crap load of scvs, depot and mining time. (warpprism dt)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yE9RP.jpg)
He slips up and doesnt have his stalkers in position for whateve reason(he was taking a third)
I send helions to his third after this group dies
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LarcH.jpg)
Then I send more helions into his nat, since his nats probes are almost dead i run half my group into the main as well
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zTIck.jpg)
And get a tour of his entire base
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6STNf.jpg)
Sharking my helions. His zealots and archons chase me all the way to my base and I got 7 zealots of every 6 helion(hey it counts man). Looks like he was planning to attack anyways I guess.? Tanks were in position to defend third.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oBC9r.jpg)
This battle actually came out quite even. He got a nice storm on my helions. Try to focus the archons after the stalkers are dead.
The moment the battle ends I send helions to harass, get a few more probe kills. He attacks me again after my helions are dead.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ui6tZ.jpg)
Bunkers finish but marines die before they enter >.> still warded this one off easily thank to perfectly placed high ground tanks.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nWUyl.jpg)
Sharking my helions again. This time I see voidrays for the first time. Knowing how far ahead I am. I do anything within my power to make sure I don't get overwhelmed by voids. This includes keeping helions close to his nat so he can't attack, since his stalkers wont be with his army they will be defending. By the time he attacks I will have turrets in place.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/07EbV.jpg)
Unfortunately, he had 3 stargates and my first round of vikings die. Things are looking bad.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/In8AH.jpg)
THOR IS HERE!!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VdT77.jpg)
The problem with desperation voidrays (as opposed to using voidrays to secure 4th), is that these are as good as dead. Vikings can't really run from voids but voids definitely can't run from vikings.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AUAjJ.jpg)
Things aren't looking good says the Obs
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/69awm.jpg)
Vikings can be good vs archons. They also look like goliaths! (but not as cool) He GG"s after this.
REPLAY HERE: http://drop.sc/79444
|
|
|
This should be in the Strategy forum, not the general forum.
|
I forgot to mention. I reactor expand every game. My opening can vary, which is why you should study my replays to know what to do vs
a. 1g X
b. 1g X 2 gas
c. 3gX
|
On December 23 2011 05:43 kedarking wrote:
This should be in the Strategy forum, not the general forum.
Can a mod move it? Misclicked i guess 
|
On December 23 2011 05:36 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Throughout the game, tell yourself these things
1. My army is always stronger than his army assuming equal supply.
This is just not really true per se for mechanical play in PvT. Since the hellion nerf it is just not possible to fight chargelots effectively without bio imo. Against a style like this P can just go some phoenix to counter air + mass chargelot + some immortals. Not much a bioless army can do against that imo.
|
On December 23 2011 05:50 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 05:36 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Throughout the game, tell yourself these things
1. My army is always stronger than his army assuming equal supply. This is just not really true per se for mechanical play in PvT. Since the hellion nerf it is just not possible to fight chargelots effectively without bio imo. Against a style like this P can just go some phoenix to counter air + mass chargelot + some immortals. Not much a bioless army can do against that imo.
Please watch replays and see that I give no opportunities for Toss to do all these "wonderful" things without them suffering the consequences. Also If you read my guide you see that my stargate adaptation involves no tanks so I dont see why phoenix will be a problem at all..
|
This is a sweet guide. I look forward to watching the replays.
What are some openings that you recommend for this playstyle?
|
On December 23 2011 05:54 Cycle wrote:
This is a sweet guide. I look forward to watching the replays.
What are some openings that you recommend for this playstyle?
I reactor expand every game. Followed by bunkers, factory swap into reactor helions + fast medivac. Bunker + maurauders with the barracks after swap to defend nat.
|
Artosis will love you, he's been wanting people to go mech in tvp forever
|
Updated the post with some pictures for tank placement. Arrows are hard to see, but they should be where tanks may have to reolcated to:
On PF placement.
1. Entombed: Between ramps of your nat and main.
2. Shak: Above your third splitting the map in half.
3. Antiga: At the intersection of the paths around the crevice.
4. Shattered: Path leading into your main and natural. If you expand to the corner expo that should be a PF, if you expand to gold that should be a OC.
|
United Kingdom20274 Posts
I wish there was something like this to explore as protoss, as it stands my biggest reason for considering the terran switch is having more than 2 viable openers that are not completely all in.
Hopefully HoTS will make things more interesting, for all 3 races
|
I just want to point out that you really shouldn't be relying on turrets to defend against blink stalker harrass/base trades. Observers have longer range of sight than turrets have range of fire. He can either spot with observer and keep it back. And blink up and completly ignor the turrets. Or he can use it to spot the turrets and just kill them with the stalkers before he blinks up. If he looses the observer he is just playing bad. You have to deal with fast blink stalkers with good army positioning, if you can find the gas to squeeze out a sensor tower that helps alot. Late game if you leave a thor or some vikings by your turrets, they should have enough range to pick off the observer.
Edit*
I'm a master terran usually around rank 30 in my division. I used to play mech alot but i ran into problems. Anyone trying to go this rout should be aware of them and try to think of a way to counter them.
First, because you need to have very specific unit compositions to deal with the protoss army it pretty much denies any early game/ early mid game agression. You only have harass options up to this point because there is just no way for you to have all the elements you need to have an effective army composition. A protoss who is being active with a mobile army composition and good harass defense can play very greedy with upgrades an expanding, and can take a large supply lead.
Second, Protoss has the option to become very very mobile in comparison. with collosus cliffwalk being able to spot highground in addition to blink stalkers, they are able to completly circemvent strong points of deffence. I found against this style sensor towers were a must, but this strains the gas heavy composition you are trying to go for.
Third, the idea that a maxed out terran mech army is the most cost effiecent army in the game, does not seem to be as true in tvp as tvz. Late late protoss is freakiing scary as well, charglot, storm, archon, colossus, maybe some air mixed in. Is terrifying. I found thata properly controlled protoss lategame army is just as strong as anything the terran can field. And with them having a more mobile army it seems easier for them to dictate the engagements.
In the end I decided that the games i was winning seemed to be more because most protoss just didn't know how to react to the unusual style, because every now and then i would run into someone who would just roll me, start to finish. I would look back at the replay and be at a loss for what i could have don differently. I decided to switch back to bio because i didn't want to rely on my enemy just not knowing how to react.
Anyways deffinatly a fun style and i hope you guys have more success with it than i did. Those were my issues, glhf trying to solve them!
|
On December 23 2011 06:32 Micromancer wrote:
I just want to point out that you really shouldn't be relying on turrets to defend against blink stalker harrass/base trades. Observers have longer range of sight than turrets have range of fire. He can either spot with observer and keep it back. And blink up and completly ignor the turrets. Or he can use it to spot the turrets and just kill them with the stalkers before he blinks up. If he looses the observer he is just playing bad. For fast blink stalker timings you have to deal with blink stalkers with good army positioning. If you can find the gas to squeeze out a sensor tower that helps alot. Late game if you leave a thor or some vikings by your turrets, they should have enough range to pick off the observer.
Thank you for the clarification I always have vikings patrolling the area so I simply forgot to mention that fact. And yes a sensor tower is amazing vs blink stalkers. It helps to leave the "variable tanks" unsieged so they can be put into place quickly.
ALSO i forgot to mention. The 3 to 4 maurauders u make early game, try to keep them alive all game. Helions + marauders + banshees + eventually the tnaks will come. Should be enough to help deal with blink stalkers. Also have an idea where their next "blink spot" will be. As it will probably be the place you just left with your tanks.
That's why if you can, leave your tanks where they are as indicated on my diagram because those tanks cover a shit load of area, as well as covering each other tank's butts.
Also @ Micromancer
Take a look at the replays. You can see I go for a fast third so even though the protoss may get a scarrier late game army than me, I dont allow it because of my constant harass and aggressive expanding. The things you described with your edit is true only if you let their macro get out of control. I have never seen a protoss comfortably taking a fast 3rd or 4th against me simply BECAUSE they feel uneasy with my every day every second harass. If they ever go for some completely greed bull crap. (fast fleet beacon fast 3rd and 4th) I will probably pull all my scvs and do the all in. It sucks but its the only aggressive option that mech allows off of 2 base.
|
On December 23 2011 06:32 Micromancer wrote:
In the end I decided that the games i was winning seemed to be more because most protoss just didn't know how to react to the unusual style, because every now and then i would run into someone who would just roll me, start to finish. I would look back at the replay and be at a loss for what i could have don differently. I decided to switch back to bio because i didn't want to rely on my enemy just not knowing how to react.
Anyways deffinatly a fun style and i hope you guys have more success with it than i did. Those were my issues, glhf trying to solve them!
Do you want me to take a look at your replays? I will get more replays up but yours would make excellent analysis to see mech from a different side.
Also I quoted that part of your paragraph because I feel that you harassments aren't doing their damage. If they deny my first medivac drop. I dont panic. I keep the medivac floating around nearby, I do INDIRECT damage because they are wary. There thoughts immediately go on the defensive and are less likely to sneak a third with a medivac floating around. This is when I can expand more aggresively, and if he chooses to attack my medivac is already in position.
I will very very rarely be behind economically. I can find any excuse to match each protoss base with one of mine. I get by with the bare minimum and the game becomes a harass + harass defense war that really tests what your skill level is at. Also if I ever feel that it might be too risky to expand, I build in base because I need to spend minerals on something. Extra OC's really pay off if you watch my game vs Caseeker. It was a 50 minute 5 vs 5 base fest where I used all my support units and he went every tech route. He is also around GM level or top 8 masters.
|
yeah i watched the replays, but it seemed to me that the protoss were just dealing with the harass poorly. I did play a very similar style to you about a season ago, and found that like you have expirianced that most of the time your harass will do well and keep them scared and turtled up. But every once in awhile i would run into a guy who was like, Im going to take a fast third, put a cannon in each mineral line and leave a few stalkers in each base. And with good controll he would just swat the harass away. Harass play with mech is alot different than with bio in that you are not droping high damage units like marauders and marines that require alot of units to defend against them. Banshees and hellions can be delt with with just a small number of well used units. They strain multitasking more than perfect army splitting. That is what allows the protoss player to take extra expansions or other shortcuts as long as his multitasking is up to the task. Also i felt that though a fast third is nessacary for the mech play that it gets very hard to defend it against a properly used blink stalker colossus player, that can bounce between your main and third. Not saying its impossible but i think you have to be better than your opponent to pull it off.
|
Is this secrety Artosis talking about mech again here?  I feel like this is going to be one of the paths terran has against protoss where they are going to figure out that they can back up that sky terran crap where they go mass viking banshee with some tanks/turrets at home. Viking/Banshee is pretty nasty (also gimmicky) because terran scans observer and then usually loses a bunch of stuff. The main way to fight it is counter attacks and early attacks (in my experience at least), but both of those are held by walls/tanks/turrets. I don't play terran much though so what do i know?
|
On December 23 2011 07:25 Micromancer wrote:
yeah i watched the replays, but it seemed to me that the protoss were just dealing with the harass poorly. I did play a very similar style to you about a season ago, and found that like you have expirianced that most of the time your harass will do well and keep them scared and turtled up. But every once in awhile i would run into a guy who was like, Im going to take a fast third, put a cannon in each mineral line and leave a few stalkers in each base. And with good controll he would just swat the harass away. Harass play with mech is alot different than with bio in that you are not droping high damage units like marauders and marines that require alot of units to defend against them. Banshees and hellions can be delt with with just a small number of well used units. They strain multitasking more than perfect army splitting. That is what allows the protoss player to take extra expansions or other shortcuts as long as his multitasking is up to the task. Also i felt that though a fast third is nessacary for the mech play that it gets very hard to defend it against a properly used blink stalker colossus player, that can bounce between your main and third. Not saying its impossible but i think you have to be better than your opponent to pull it off.
-If I ever see a protoss try that I will pull a few scvs and take out the third. Go back, and resume as normal. Perhaps I will run into someone like that on ladder.
-2 cannons in main + Nexus = 700 minerals. If they do this before MY third, I guess the only option is all in. Take note that when playing my style I have spent 0 on static defense at this point in the game.
-You say just a couple of stalkers stops helion harass? That is simply not true. If there are 2 stalkers 4 helions can go by and kill everything. If there are 4 stalkers I can come out even in a helion vs probe trade. The toss will always invest more resources in defending against helions unless you let your medivac die (which should never happen unless you want to get as many probe kills as possible)
Also if you watch my game vs Caseeker
-He tries to take out my 4th. My army surrounds his already sieged and he loses a crap load.
-His constant DT/Zealot/Blink stalker harass is answered by me sending helions and banshees to his other bases. He had no money to keep up that harass (because defender trades more cost effeiciently), and him losing probes earlier to be able to afford cannons until much later. As you can see his late army suffered.
-Every action the protoss takes must be met with the proper reaction. I will probably make a list of FAQ's (what if toss does this bla blah blah) and try to calm all the nay sayers down.
|
Little question: Why use air units? I understand the fear of immortals that creeps in every time someone mentions mech tvp, and that few try to make tank-based mech work simply because of the 1a deathball syndrome(yeah there is emp and kiting but seriously, tvp has not changed since the beta).But I think everyone is dissmissing hellions too much, a deep look at the unit shows that it tanks 5!!! immortal shots Or 9 stalker shots.And in battles with more than 50 army supply it takes care of the zlots.Hellions as meatshields rock, and i believe the only way to mech is tank hellion ghost viking. Please before spamming that toss can a-move through a sieged army: go unit tester:They cant. This comp gets vastly better at 3/3 vs 3/3/3 than at no upgrades, and late-game with the addition of ghosts it gets mobile( emp and chase the toss till his shields start to regen or pylon range is reached). Generally a few solutions present themselves to the protoss: 1. Get Collosus,Immortal,zlot with about even numbers of collossi and immos to get through the hellions to the tanks. Solution: it has 2 problems despite being the worst comp mech can face: it is immobile and relies heavily on robo units which cannot reinforce instantly.The toss tries to outmuscle the T here. Get a third, Double Armory flash style, harass as well as you can. Any harass from the toss can be dealt with hellions and turrets. Doom push(2/1 or 3/2) while taking a 4th once you got 4 or so ghosts.Always roam the map with hellions. ALWAYS keep half your tanks unsieged while you turtle,4 s are crucial in sc2.
2.Stalker collosus deathball with blink cliff harass.Here either control the center or keep all your tanks unsieged with a couple sensor towers nearby.Fewer hellions than normal=aka 2 for each tank. Go tank-heavy, mass expand and DO NOT DEFEND your 4th and fifth apart from planetary and a turret.You will be mining gas only at these expos and muleing here. If you lose them well you just lost 6 scv, a cc and a turret=800 minerals,compared to the gas mined there its heaven. You wont be needing those minerals as hellions and harass have limited utility. If the protoss moves toward those far away expos- BE GLAD, you can push towards the middle now.As usual hellions and a planetary can beat zealot warp-ins.Push timings-Here you can actually 4 fact off 2 base as twilight, blink, forge,robobay and a 3rd from the protoss is greedy, exact timings are still unknown but if you see robobay twilight and scout a third go push when the 3rd is about half done.2 t-labs and take a third.
Also, please don't talk about mixing in bio. Bio doesnt share the same upgrades, cost additional gas to get healing,stim,combat shield etc, dies to storm and collosus,can t fix zealot problem, and you end up maxing with less tanks than you'd want. Hellions are the way, especially when you see how fast they wipe probe lines and that there is ONE unit that counters them=collossi. Mass hellions with your tanks, harass if you can, force collosi which are immobile and have build time, make immortals useless(tank well, burn shields,stop your tanks from being reached).
|
On December 23 2011 08:44 rgTheSchworz wrote:
Little question: Why use air units? I understand the fear of immortals that creeps in every time someone mentions mech tvp, and that few try to make tank-based mech work simply because of the 1a deathball syndrome(yeah there is emp and kiting but seriously, tvp has not changed since the beta).But I think everyone is dissmissing hellions too much, a deep look at the unit shows that it tanks 5!!! immortal shots Or 9 stalker shots.And in battles with more than 50 army supply it takes care of the zlots.Hellions as meatshields rock, and i believe the only way to mech is tank hellion ghost viking. Please before spamming that toss can a-move through a sieged army: go unit tester:They cant. This comp gets vastly better at 3/3 vs 3/3/3 than at no upgrades, and late-game with the addition of ghosts it gets mobile( emp and chase the toss till his shields start to regen or pylon range is reached). Generally a few solutions present themselves to the protoss: 1. Get Collosus,Immortal,zlot with about even numbers of collossi and immos to get through the hellions to the tanks. Solution: it has 2 problems despite being the worst comp mech can face: it is immobile and relies heavily on robo units which cannot reinforce instantly.The toss tries to outmuscle the T here. Get a third, Double Armory flash style, harass as well as you can. Any harass from the toss can be dealt with hellions and turrets. Doom push(2/1 or 3/2) while taking a 4th once you got 4 or so ghosts.Always roam the map with hellions. ALWAYS keep half your tanks unsieged while you turtle,4 s are crucial in sc2.
2.Stalker collosus deathball with blink cliff harass.Here either control the center or keep all your tanks unsieged with a couple sensor towers nearby.Fewer hellions than normal=aka 2 for each tank. Go tank-heavy, mass expand and DO NOT DEFEND your 4th and fifth apart from planetary and a turret.You will be mining gas only at these expos and muleing here. If you lose them well you just lost 6 scv, a cc and a turret=800 minerals,compared to the gas mined there its heaven. You wont be needing those minerals as hellions and harass have limited utility. If the protoss moves toward those far away expos- BE GLAD, you can push towards the middle now.As usual hellions and a planetary can beat zealot warp-ins.Push timings-Here you can actually 4 fact off 2 base as twilight, blink, forge,robobay and a 3rd from the protoss is greedy, exact timings are still unknown but if you see robobay twilight and scout a third go push when the 3rd is about half done.2 t-labs and take a third.
Also, please don't talk about mixing in bio. Bio doesnt share the same upgrades, cost additional gas to get healing,stim,combat shield etc, dies to storm and collosus,can t fix zealot problem, and you end up maxing with less tanks than you'd want. Hellions are the way, especially when you see how fast they wipe probe lines and that there is ONE unit that counters them=collossi. Mass hellions with your tanks, harass if you can, force collosi which are immobile and have build time, make immortals useless(tank well, burn shields,stop your tanks from being reached).
Just wondering what rank are you? No hate I havent tried incorporating vikings in my composition because I feel that it would be weak to pure twilight immortal sentry. That combination will shut down your first paragraph but I be disproven by replays.
To your question about banshees. Its because banshees synergizes so well with tanks. Banshees force stalkers. Stalkers in an army vs army battle is terrible.
Banshees are excellent Immortal shield drainers. 5 banshee shots take out an immortals shields perfectly. Banshees can be used against stalker harass. Vikings can't.
Banshees force more OBs, thus cutting into collosus or immortal production. Now if you add vikings once cloak is finished (get cloak after 3 base) you can make protoss look like a chicken with its head cut off. Once you play around with bansshees you will start noticing patterns of where there obs usually go, and especially where there obs Wont be at allowing u to do some crazy cloakshee harass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
