EPT[G] SkyMech: The Lost Terran Art of TvP - Page 9
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AndreiDaGiant
United States394 Posts
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chaos~
United States13 Posts
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xlava
United States676 Posts
Anyway nice guide, even if I hate playing against mech. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:01 superstartran wrote: There is no solution. The only units that can deal with Blink Stalkers properly are Thors and Tanks, both which are slow as shit. You also need Tanks in LARGE numbers to deal with Blink Stalkers, and you need them to be positioned properly in siege mode. A 2 base Robo/Blink timing attack like Hero utilizes would utterly smash a Mech build into oblivion. There's just no possible way you can defend against it because it'll hit before you have significant amount of Tanks out. You'll outright die most of the time, or be so crippled from the harass/contain that he's on 5 bases and you just took a 3rd. Not to mention that Mech outright blows in a straight up fight anyways. 200/200 Mech ball can't even fight a 200/200 HT/Archon ball without losing. Charge/Blink/Storm is just too much for Mech to deal with half the time, not to mention any feedbacks on Thors. It's not like it hasn't been tried; lots of good players have already tried to run Mech, but simply could not make it work no matter what they tried. There is no space control with the current incarnation of Mech. Thats not exactly true, theres tons of stuff that deal with Blink Stalkers. Marauders, Banshees, Ghosts, Thors. Just because you're going mech doesn't mean that you CAN'T build Rax/Starport units if its appropiate. Its been my experience that 1 Rax worth of Marauders are the best response to blink stalker. You are correct that we can't get enough Factory/Starport units out in time to defend against early heavy blink, but that's why we have the Marauder. They're great vs Stalkers even with no upgrades. I don't get Stim because with Blink the Stalkers almost always get away anyways. I do get concussive shells though, for anti-warp prism stuff, and its nice if the P gets sloppy with their positioning. Thor defense is a good response too. With mass repair, they can defend with minimal supply. And with their long range antiair, they can snipe the obs that let the Stalkers Blink up. Also keep in mind that this is a Skymech thread, and Banshees are pretty damn good against Stalkers. Especially with sieged tanks zoning out your base so the Banshees can kite the Stalkers into siege fire. I like to push with a ton of Tank/Hellion/Banshee/Ghost, and then reinforce with Thor/Hellion/Viking/Marauder. That way, if theres a counterattack I have the perfect units there to defend against it. | ||
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sleigh bells
United States358 Posts
this usually works great on maps like shakuras since my goal is usually to prevent a third. i can usually get a good contain going. thoughts on this build? when i transition into bio (marauders), i usually win. when i get more facts, i usually lose  | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On January 01 2012 03:39 RoboBob wrote: Thats not exactly true, theres tons of stuff that deal with Blink Stalkers. Marauders, Banshees, Ghosts, Thors. Just because you're going mech doesn't mean that you CAN'T build Rax/Starport units if its appropiate. Its been my experience that 1 Rax worth of Marauders are the best response to blink stalker. You are correct that we can't get enough Factory/Starport units out in time to defend against early heavy blink, but that's why we have the Marauder. They're great vs Stalkers even with no upgrades. I don't get Stim because with Blink the Stalkers almost always get away anyways. I do get concussive shells though, for anti-warp prism stuff, and its nice if the P gets sloppy with their positioning. Thor defense is a good response too. With mass repair, they can defend with minimal supply. And with their long range antiair, they can snipe the obs that let the Stalkers Blink up. Also keep in mind that this is a Skymech thread, and Banshees are pretty damn good against Stalkers. Especially with sieged tanks zoning out your base so the Banshees can kite the Stalkers into siege fire. I like to push with a ton of Tank/Hellion/Banshee/Ghost, and then reinforce with Thor/Hellion/Viking/Marauder. That way, if theres a counterattack I have the perfect units there to defend against it. Mind being blown by the responses here. Heavy Blink play early can even crush decent Bio play. Hero showed that it's perfectly possible in some of the games he's played as long as you push early enough. If you are going pure Marines early with no upgrades as your early defense, you will get raped big time by heavy blink harassment. In all of the replays of the OP, he barely has anything to defend against 2 base robo/blink play. Also, you HAVE to go early heavy Marines early if you are going to do an early expand, otherwise you insta die to any 3 Gate VR all-in. This leaves you heavily vulnerable to shit like Robo/Blink, especially if you refuse to go heavy Mauraders early on. Predy who used to run mech extensively as Terran will tell you opening straight into Mech from just Marines is just asking to die period. He ALWAYS ran Bio = > Mech, never did he just go from handful of Marines into Mech. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On January 01 2012 04:58 superstartran wrote: Mind being blown by the responses here. Heavy Blink play early can even crush decent Bio play. Hero showed that it's perfectly possible in some of the games he's played as long as you push early enough. If you are going pure Marines early with no upgrades as your early defense, you will get raped big time by heavy blink harassment. In all of the replays of the OP, he barely has anything to defend against 2 base robo/blink play. Also, you HAVE to go early heavy Marines early if you are going to do an early expand, otherwise you insta die to any 3 Gate VR all-in. This leaves you heavily vulnerable to shit like Robo/Blink, especially if you refuse to go heavy Mauraders early on. Predy who used to run mech extensively as Terran will tell you opening straight into Mech from just Marines is just asking to die period. He ALWAYS ran Bio = > Mech, never did he just go from handful of Marines into Mech. Please think through some of these responses. Probe scouts reactor on rax -> could be 2 rax, reactor expand into bio, or 1/1/1. Voidrays are very bad choices in this case. Robo-blink must be scouted by the initial 4 helion drop. Then the build can be changed to best defend against blink stalkers. A protoss will not plan to do a 2 base robo-blink aggression after only seeing rines, a bunker, a reactor, and gas. He has no idea if you are going to expand or not. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
You need more than 2 Tanks to secure Metal; you will get sniped big time by Blink Stalkers. By the time your reinforcements make it up there he's taken out 2 Tanks for maybe a stalker or two, while taking out some tech labs or whatever else he could find. The problem is that unlike Mauraders, Tanks have to siege to actually do damage to large clumps of units. I think you misunderstood me: You can hold metal from one base with 2 tanks, with an inbase CC. Once you start setting up your natural, you will have problems, so I guess you turtle a bit. Ghost/Mech is too gas costly, and is simply too cost inefficient. You need to secure a 3rd, and a Robo/Blink opening or any kind of Warp Prism play will prevent that 3rd from going up for a very long time. I did mean ghosts for the late game /3rd base and past it). You go Mech for almost the entire game, and only supplement the army with Ghosts once you probably hit 180 supply. I have NEVER seen double warp prism harass Probably because people haven't been using prisms as long as Medivacs. And you don't see people double/triple dropping too often either, very micro intensive and APM taxing. Once T finds that you expand greedily off pure stalker, guess what??There's a BIG timing push that comes that you can't possibly hold since stalkers cost for cost DO NO BEAT UNSIEGED TANKS, especially if +1 or a raven is on the field. You'll have pitiful numbers of collosi/immortals and most of the times you'll get A-move rolled. 1 tank 1 marine beat 2 stalkers, blink won't help once tanks can 1 shot, you can't stall cause you'll get contained and your third busted and the zeals you'll warp will be bout even with the 5-6 hellions a T can produce off 2 base.And scvs, btw. You can't stall? Are you serious? You just sit outside of his natural and if he even comes out you just pick off random units, blink away, repeat, and continue. By the time he reaches your base he has enough tech to deal with whatever the hell you have. You make it sound like Mech can just straight up 2 base all-in if he sees any Blink Stalker play. You can't. People have tried this shit, it doesn't work. Mech is just simply bad against any competent Protoss player. The only reason why it works half the time is because Protoss players react badly. Any Blink play RAPES Mech. Period. You have 0 mobility to deal with it. He will contain your ass and you won't be able to do anything at all. I agree/disagree. It is true Blink Stalkers can contain you pretty well. On the other hand, all-ining of 2 base will crush Blink Stalkers with brute force. If I was going Mech, and saw someone trying 2 base Blink contain, I would go some sort of 1/1/1 style with marines, Tanks and banshees (You still have a reactor barracks, remember?). Blink Stalkers are very fragile, and Marine Tank Banshee completely kills them. Pulling SCVs, the amount of blink Stalkers you have will not be able to kill his entire army before it hits your base. And you're bound to lose a few through mismicro, so you'll be at an even more disadvantage. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On January 01 2012 04:58 superstartran wrote: Mind being blown by the responses here. Heavy Blink play early can even crush decent Bio play. Hero showed that it's perfectly possible in some of the games he's played as long as you push early enough. If you are going pure Marines early with no upgrades as your early defense, you will get raped big time by heavy blink harassment. In all of the replays of the OP, he barely has anything to defend against 2 base robo/blink play. Also, you HAVE to go early heavy Marines early if you are going to do an early expand, otherwise you insta die to any 3 Gate VR all-in. This leaves you heavily vulnerable to shit like Robo/Blink, especially if you refuse to go heavy Mauraders early on. Predy who used to run mech extensively as Terran will tell you opening straight into Mech from just Marines is just asking to die period. He ALWAYS ran Bio = > Mech, never did he just go from handful of Marines into Mech. You obviously don't want to build Marauders vs VR allins. Marauders are a response to Blink Stalker, which you should be able to scout beforehand. Its pretty easy to check the Stalker count with Scan+SCV, and Robo+Twilight Council+Blink take a long time to kick in, you should see it far in advance. So you'll know to make either Marines or Marauders. Anyway, not everybody has Blink Stalker control like Hero  Thats why I like to open 2 Rax FE when going mech TvP. That way I have the tools I need to defend against all one base allins. 2 Rax worth of bio is enough to let you stall until your mech units come out. I'll get cshells if I make Marauders, but I never get Stim+Shields with mech, I need that gas to get up factories quickly and sometimes need to addon swap. You don't need infantry upgrades to hold off blink/vr as long as you have proper factory/starport support. Its a good idea to have two Rax around anyway. Even after switching mineral dump to Hellion+Turret, because you will be eventually getting Ghosts. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
In less words , something AGRRO or HARASSIVE, to be able to scout stargate, dt, blink etc. Otherwise, you're vulnerable to protoss abuse.I seriously don't recommend 1 rax FE, or defensive 1/1/1 with a raven,or 1 fact straight expo.You can't prepare for 5 things at a time. In SC2 a fast third does take a longer time to pay off than in BW.If some of you find a way to safely take a fast third with mech, please post it.That extra set of gasses helps T more than it does P, as T can skimp on hellions and power tanks and upgrades that much faster. Untill then, 2 base pushing(to read NOT ALL-IN) is your pre-game plan.I doubt you could hold a 10-11 min third vs good zealot immortal timing.DO take a fast third if protoss goes for a third himself, techs off 2 base to templar/colossus or if you have eco advantage or map control, depending on how harass goes. Blink stalkers are probably the trashiest units in direct combat against mech.You absolutely do not have to be sieged to take them out,provided you have 5,6 rines or rauders around.Even pure tank + repair does the job.+1 or a raven are bonuses to have, not necessities. Heavy blink play can beat bio, you know why? Because stalkers auto-regen and till medvacs, MM don't.This on top of having the range advantage vs marines. Vs mech the situation is reversed. You need 13 stalker shots to snipe a tank,Tanks can be repaired from the start, tanks have that extra range meaning they'll always have the better concave,Finally tanks do large damage meaning you can't profit from shield regen once you get 1 or even 2 shotted. Sniping a repaired tank is not easy, if you lose 2 stalkers for it I'm quite happy.Quite sure that blink stalkers can be dealt off 2 bases.And no, I don't need a 3rd I can't defend here because you haven't got robo tech in significant numbers and I can timing push your 3rd.If you do get robo tech before expanding, I'm also happy, you just let me take a 3rd. After you get any 2 upgrades from the following: Stim, Shields,+1 infantry, just go Bio. Mech transitions sucks then as you need a ton of facts, you wasted gas on bio, and you're 2 steps away from having all you need playing bio anyway. Same can be said for psuedo-biomech. If you got 2 mech upgrades,just make hellions, MM won't get you anywhere. | ||
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discobaas
225 Posts
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
If they do one of those suicidal attacks by bringing their colossus and blink stalker army into your main, just trap his army by splitting your main army by positioning tanks to possible escape routes and the rest to fight force the P army into such escape routes. Vikings will take care of colossus, and tanks will demolish the rest. Tbh, as a Meching T, if they mass stalkers as opposed to a immortal/archon/zealot combo or something along those lines, I will be happy! Just a few games I played yesterday for those interested. http://drop.sc/82651 http://drop.sc/82652 | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
also, can you try to do more early push or mid-game push, without waiting the cap limit? it's possible ? | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
The dailies should be added here. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
day9 did a a daily(396) which really helped me get a kickstart my mech, Because for the longest time I just didn't understand it. I recommend adding it to the OP I would prefer a new thread being made, as this is about someone's personal Mech point of view/build order. It's best if someone makes a bigger, more comprehensive guide to Mech. I watched the dailies as well, and I rather liked them (Especially the fact there was some Korean replays). I found the build order of the players to be very similar: Rax Factory Starport Cloaked banshee play Reactor on rax Decide from scouting/your game play from there. The fact that you can switch add-ons makes so many different compositions, different production, and makes scouting viable to counter what your opponent is doing. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
Willingness to try out mech. Illusion coming up with an interesting strategy Great pushes from illusion Things I am a little bit amazed about: Banked minerals are bad. Make hellions they're good,you can trade them for probes/zealots/ht/sentries if they don't seem useful in the main army. Trimaster played pretty bad, he had a huge lead, and he threw it because he doesnt know how to play. 120 to 80 ish supply, T is on 3 bases, P has 37 probes to 68 scvs.Just turtle till max(which comes fast assuming hellion/tank/ghost is made) then go push.I think it doesnt matter if toss has a million bases, he barely had time to rebuild probes, is behind in upgrades and army size and won't be able to stall the doom push for a long time.Instead he goes for the engagements to trade armies. Bad decision.Use Pf's when you go for a 4th. No wrap around the protoss army with hellions. Maximize that splash, they're totally worth it. In short, I think that 3 things are really confirmed: Mech armies at even upgrades are way stronger than bio, once you pass 110 supply. You have to be super map-aware with mech, it's the only way it's worth it. Else, bio is more forgiving. Early banshees are great.But more than 4 is really a waste,as they'll be remaining after engagements, and you seriously want leftover tanks. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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Nightcrawler
52 Posts
shakuras shattered temple arid plateu | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On February 05 2012 15:59 TBone- wrote: Anyone have any openings besides a banshee opening? To make this viable every time in a boX series I feel like we need more than one opener. Off the top of my head in TvZ i think opening a single Viking (or even a double viking) with marines into a Raven with 2 or three more vikings then adding banshees might be an interesting idea, if you can be really active and useful with the vikings. I think the reason most people open banshee first however is that they're immediately useful. Sure with a Viking you CAN scout, and you CAN snipe overlords, but if you get attacked by say early roaches...a viking isn't actually going to help you not be dead. Similarly, the Raven will at best have the energy to drop a turret maybe, but probably not an actual PDD yet. A banshee however, comes out, and even without cloak is ready to do extreme pain to anything at your wall. | ||
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