EPTIf protoss can deny your 4th and 5th while teching to late game carriers mothership, it can be very problematic. The only counter I can imagine to this build would be to start getting thors and prepare for a midgame push, but I am not sure. I will need to refine my build to see what it has to offer vs this comp.
[G] SkyMech: The Lost Terran Art of TvP - Page 7
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
If protoss can deny your 4th and 5th while teching to late game carriers mothership, it can be very problematic. The only counter I can imagine to this build would be to start getting thors and prepare for a midgame push, but I am not sure. I will need to refine my build to see what it has to offer vs this comp. | ||
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Tactical_Tim
United States20 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
[B]On December 27 2011 11:10 rgTheSchworz wrote: When someone posts a replay of ''THE PUSH'' , eventually stating why it would not work, then you can say that mech does or does not work.So far i have seen turtling,waiting for protoss to get impatient and attack,splitting the map, all-ins,thor-based comps, and other stuff from our fellow SC2 strategy posters at TL.Feel free to point me towards a rep where T fast pushes P at 200/200 with mech. So far, I have not seen a 200/200 Tank hellion ghost with 3-4 thors rolling across the map with the protoss backing,stalling for extra warpgates, baiting it onto his side of the map, because in the middle, with no pylons, and T's reinforcing path being shorter, It is unfightable. When we will see this kind of push succeed or fail, then we have the answer to the question'' Is SC2 mech viable in TvP?'' Actually I saw of rep of Goody doing just that and lost a few months ago in some online tournament. Can't remember the Protoss player, but it was on Shattered Temple. Anyway, the Protoss went for a base trade with double forge Stalker-Colossus and won big time. The Colossi spotted up the cliff into the main, the Stalkers blinked inside to gun everything down before it could float out, and the Zealots charged into the natural to maul the SCVs running their dear lives. Goody's 3 bases (he did make it to 3/3 mech) were totally destroyed by the time his mech army (heavily slowed by Thors) reached the Protoss' natural. His Hellions and Ghosts were worthless vs Protoss buildings so he had to rely on pure tank to kill everyhing. He did eventually destroy the Protoss' base, but the P had more than enough time to evacuate his probes beforehand and chew down the Hellion count. Then Goody's weakened army was contained inside the Protoss' mined out main+natural, which is never a happy spot to be in with mech. With no detection and no Vikings/Banshees to prevent Collosi picks, an Obs spotted exactly when an unsiege happened and, well, gg. The P was reloading on warpgates at a hidden expo. So even if Goody held that big push the P still had economy and infastructure while Goody didn't. 1 Probe can throw up 10 warpgates no problem, but you can't do the same thing with SCVs, Factories, and addons. The games that Goody *did* win with Hellion/Ghost/Tank all featured a sizable amounts of Vikings (even if they were never used). I also never saw a P try to tech switch to Stargate on him, probably because he usually had those Vikings. (well, one P did try, but the game was already way over beforehand) The Starport units aren't there to just stop Immortal/Stargate, its to stop Blink-ups and WPs into the main as well. The three most common methods for sighting up are Obs, Colossi, and Hallucinated Phoenx. Vikings can kill all the sighters and Banshees can kill Collosi and the Stalkers themselves, but wide-spread Tank+Turret won't repel any of those things. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
Base trading is gimmicky at best, as you lose your warpgates(ability to remax instantly) while T can save some of his facts and scvs(Either you go for the 4th or the main, you kill the scvs at the 4th, facts float to the corner, and vice versa. You cannot just go through the middle cause thats where the push is happening, so you cannot attacks the 4th and the main at the same time i think. Plus, you actually need some troops to take out a planetary at the 4th, so be careful how you split!!!).Hellions are super mobile and will hunt for probes instead of taking out buildings. Plus, as I said, you have an army which is 20 supply smaller,who does puny dps to buildings, whose only advantage would be mobility. Goody is bad, I recently watched a game of his vs Adel, where he dealt with blink, phoenix gimmicks early game but then let Adel double expand with a stalker heavy army, and that is horrible. Timing pushing and good scouting would have ended it right there. 1/1/1 showed the power of timing pushes, at one point it had 80% winrate and still is strong.Timing pushes off 2 base need to be refined to the 10 sec window, they're the soul of mech. When you see WP, you get 2-3 vikings-perfectly normal.When you sight a stalker heavy comp, ball up and unsiege more than half your tanks,your vikings/hellions will give you sight of attempts to blink and then you can siege some or all of their tanks.It's not easy, but it's doable, if you are looking for an easy tvp, play bio, If you wanna be manly and stop the protoss from A-moving FF, as well as testing his multitask with hellion harass, play mech. | ||
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SelK
France81 Posts
On December 27 2011 11:45 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Try to shoot for a phoenix blink timing while getting a greedy 3rd and 4th. Because Thor + helion beats gateway + phoenix, but tank + helion gets absolutely ravished. So you suggest I try and push with blink stalkers and phoenixes before thors are out, lifting tanks and killing everything with stalkers since only tanks are opposing a decent threat to them at that point in the game, and then use that time to get greedy expos. Sounds like a nice game plan overall, I have yet to meet someone trying this style again though, it's quite rare to find terran players who're not going for standard bio play or 1-1-1 all-in. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On December 27 2011 22:54 rgTheSchworz wrote: I kinda see the point, but base trading on even bases is generally a bad idea for toss.Provided you scout all hidden expos and keep track of his army with hellions, and of course fry his probes trying to rebuild. One building in the corner of the map is all that you need. Colossus stalker do terrible dps to buildings per supply, with 18.5 /6 supply per colossus and 9.6 per 2 supply with stalkers.Tank dps is 24 per 3 supply(vs armored)!! and hellions sure can tear through those probes .Enough said? I think base trading isnt bad if you have the base advantage vs mech, but then you can stall, engage, trade all your army for half of his, then remax. Base trading is gimmicky at best, as you lose your warpgates(ability to remax instantly) while T can save some of his facts and scvs(Either you go for the 4th or the main, you kill the scvs at the 4th, facts float to the corner, and vice versa. You cannot just go through the middle cause thats where the push is happening, so you cannot attacks the 4th and the main at the same time i think. Plus, you actually need some troops to take out a planetary at the 4th, so be careful how you split!!!).Hellions are super mobile and will hunt for probes instead of taking out buildings. Plus, as I said, you have an army which is 20 supply smaller,who does puny dps to buildings, whose only advantage would be mobility. Goody is bad, I recently watched a game of his vs Adel, where he dealt with blink, phoenix gimmicks early game but then let Adel double expand with a stalker heavy army, and that is horrible. Timing pushing and good scouting would have ended it right there. 1/1/1 showed the power of timing pushes, at one point it had 80% winrate and still is strong.Timing pushes off 2 base need to be refined to the 10 sec window, they're the soul of mech. When you see WP, you get 2-3 vikings-perfectly normal.When you sight a stalker heavy comp, ball up and unsiege more than half your tanks,your vikings/hellions will give you sight of attempts to blink and then you can siege some or all of their tanks.It's not easy, but it's doable, if you are looking for an easy tvp, play bio, If you wanna be manly and stop the protoss from A-moving FF, as well as testing his multitask with hellion harass, play mech. Lol bio is easy. I think most people are trying mech purely because they are sick of auto losing if the P sets up a 4th and you hvaent done and crippling damage. TvP bio is a lot like non=mech-TvZ where you will never win a pure macro game. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
With mech you have to know what protoss is doing at all times, as if you had maphacks. Else you get busted from time to time by protoss who abuse either your comp or your supposed immobility, and whine on TL that 7 tanks dont 1 shot 10 stalkers and 1 colossus( which is about equal cost, a bit in favor of toss actually) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296950¤tpage=7 http://i.imgur.com/btCW4.jpg 10 Stalkers 1 Colossus at 3/3/3 after one 3 attack tank volley. All i see is 1250+ damage done. Colossus+3 stalkers dead=350+480=830 Shields off on 4 stalkers and half on a 5th=360 Hp on 3 stalkers=140-150 Total damage done=1330 or 190 / tank. Counting armor deduction that means about 3 times the 62 damage actually inflicted BEFORE ANY UNITS GOT A SHOT OFF.A second volley would have killed the rest of the protoss army. 21 supply vs 26 supply when in lategame terran has the supply advantage. Judge for yourself if you want to play mech after that. ''Apparently'' I heard that Emp-ed Immortals melt to tanks and that chargelots clump up, a LOT,and there's that unit called the hellion too. Suggestion for Blizzard that would not interfer with TvZ if they want to buff tanks:HP to 175 or 170. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/efgPM.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XGfew.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xFMZa.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jziIt.jpg) REPLAY: http://drop.sc/80208 | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
watching that army try to engage in that position hurts my brain | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
But yeah,that's just ghostmech,even caught completely unsieged at 200/200 3/3 with 5 ghosts you stand a good chance. On a serious note, you got too many ghosts and not nearly enough hellions. Any sane protoss will not attacks into a wall.Make the wall and the army mobile=totally another thing. Oh, and emp the archons if you have spare emp's because you lost your first volley on units that don't die to tanks. Thankfully they do trash damage, and you can ignore them after the first volley/emps. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
"ugh me protoss, me make army and attack move into wall and tanks. Me not understand why lose" | ||
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FWpRP.png) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AnmeG.jpg) The pride of my tvp mech career. Too bad it only took move commanding towards my army round a corner giving like 3 free volleys (last remnants of the toss army evaporated somewhere between the scvs and tanks). | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
edit: actually now that i finish the replay you did get cloak. i still think you should get it earlier though!  | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On December 28 2011 06:53 FrankWalls wrote: watching that army try to engage in that position hurts my brain Well, I suppose that's the gift of giving for you lol. A huge 200 food gift. | ||
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esiex3
United States25 Posts
* Because the terran is supposed to take a super fast third with this build, a toss can respond with his own fast third. * This build is super greedy. It takes a fairly fast third and techs up incredibly fast. This is why this build wins in late game. If a toss does not respond at all and does standard play like against bio, where you sit back and just defend timings, then you just lose because of the huge advantage the terran has. * Since the terran is going for fairly high tech units, unit trading isn't so bad. Zealots and immortals for siege tanks earlier on is good so you don't get evaporated in a single volley later on. Here's a few replays of me vs OP: These are all immortal pushes that he died to. Various mistakes like positioning, army comp, and macro cause him to lose. * http://drop.sc/80250 * http://drop.sc/80258 * http://drop.sc/80252 In this game, my immortal push killed 2 tanks. I was certain at that point that he couldn't push me at all because his army had no firepower, so I took a very fast third after my timing attack. I constantly harassed, abusing the immobility of most of his army, and fended off his harassment. I went for blink stalkers into mass immortals, which is pretty good against mech. http://drop.sc/80248 In this game, my immortal push do enough damage because of a bad elevator. Unlike the previous game, he actually had a sizeable army to push with. He could've done a 2 base 1/1/1 push, which is very scary to deal with after losing a good portion of your army. However, instead, he prepares for sentry drops (and ends up losing a bunch regardless) while I take another fast third and gain a large advantage. When he finally does a sort of push on my main, I flank with mass immortals and clean up his third. http://drop.sc/80249 Now because the OP has been posting screenshots demonstrating superior play, I'll do the same :D ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZaDmR.jpg) Bad posititioning by terran ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/03T7S.jpg) Watch where your tanks are ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ogBP7.jpg) Bad angle? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/13d2k.jpg) Doesn't matter, my unit comp is stronger. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iDZgc.jpg) These tanks are no spartans Last few things about this: * His build (before the incredibly greedy part) looks a bit like a 2 base 1/1/1 that I've seen in the gsl a few times. Maybe with a few modifications (more aggression, less harass, less greediness), this could actually become a very standard mech build. * We don't see mech at all because we don't have any proper openers going to it. Hopefully we find something that doesn't have to be insanely greedy. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
You also have to play a little too greedy with mech, which is kind of hard since your unit composition just flat out sucks at defending harass most of the time. Taking a fast 3rd is important, and that's the reason why everyone has flat out abandoned it. There is no way to properly defend against Blink Stalkers early on with Mech while being cost efficient. He will just contain and overwhelm you eventually and you can't do shit about it. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
Expand when you timing push his 3rd. Get armory after 2nd or after 3rd fact. Starport for raven if you get it early,else armory after 2nd or 3rd fact. After 2nd fact +1 will finish in time for your push. .Cut scvs before you push and go with 6-10 of them while you are pushing. Any 1 base fact or fact port expand will do it. +1 Hellion unsieged tanks 6-10 scvs to tank and repair and 10 marines vs your Blinkers while you takin that 3rd. Expect feedback. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On December 29 2011 01:08 superstartran wrote: Your build is extremely vulnerable to Blink timings. None of your units are going to be cost effective against Blink Stalkers at all. I've tried running Mech over and over and over again in Masters, and it just flat out doesn't work unless the Protoss plays it really badly. There's too many ways for a Protoss to flat out slow you down so long that he gets a huge economic advantage. The problem is that mech is extremely cost inefficient against Blink Stalkers. If he plays it right, all he has to do is constantly pick off Helions/Tanks when he can, while blinking into your base when you're not looking and just outright smash you. He can do this reactively off a 1 gate FE once he sees you are going Mech also. You also have to play a little too greedy with mech, which is kind of hard since your unit composition just flat out sucks at defending harass most of the time. Taking a fast 3rd is important, and that's the reason why everyone has flat out abandoned it. There is no way to properly defend against Blink Stalkers early on with Mech while being cost efficient. He will just contain and overwhelm you eventually and you can't do shit about it. Can you post the replay of blink stalkers rolling you? Perhaps we can find a solution. | ||
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