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On December 26 2011 05:53 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 05:09 Zyphen wrote:
This will only work on the NA server. If our European friends are disappointed by our "masters" level play, sorry. You can get away with this kind of shit here. I've seen comparably poor macro all the way up to GM. There's 2 possibilities:
1. The OP should actually be ranked higher but is held back by his inferior build.
2. Else, he should be ranked lower but most masters protoss don't even bother to prep/practice for mech so the OP gets away with it.
I can't decide which. I didn't know european people had a special sense for mech counters. Silly me. In all seriousness, if European players are better than American players as a whole by a whole league (exaggeration) and a half (more exaggeration), which makes sense because Europe is like 10 more countries, then they should have the refined mechanics and game sense themselves to be able to figure out how to fine tune this build to make mech work for their opponents in Sweden, Germany, etc...
Top masters US will rape low masters EU. Its not that much a difference. EU is better but tbh you can ignore that cuz its so small
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 26 2011 05:58 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 05:53 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:On December 26 2011 05:09 Zyphen wrote:
This will only work on the NA server. If our European friends are disappointed by our "masters" level play, sorry. You can get away with this kind of shit here. I've seen comparably poor macro all the way up to GM. There's 2 possibilities:
1. The OP should actually be ranked higher but is held back by his inferior build.
2. Else, he should be ranked lower but most masters protoss don't even bother to prep/practice for mech so the OP gets away with it.
I can't decide which. I didn't know european people had a special sense for mech counters. Silly me. In all seriousness, if European players are better than American players as a whole by a whole league (exaggeration) and a half (more exaggeration), which makes sense because Europe is like 10 more countries, then they should have the refined mechanics and game sense themselves to be able to figure out how to fine tune this build to make mech work for their opponents in Sweden, Germany, etc... Top masters US will rape low masters EU. Its not that much a difference. EU is better but tbh you can ignore that cuz its so small
I agree with Squigly's analysis of the skill gradients on EU and NA. I think it's also worth noting that when evaluating nonstandard play like this, instead of looking at a guy's league or points, it's best just to look at his games and the level his opponents play at. It's fairly clear that this build is viable at the low-mid level-- I guess the real question is whether it's viable in the GM range. That being said, if you, like me, are not GM, this is fun to use/play :D
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On December 26 2011 06:22 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 05:58 Squigly wrote:On December 26 2011 05:53 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:On December 26 2011 05:09 Zyphen wrote:
This will only work on the NA server. If our European friends are disappointed by our "masters" level play, sorry. You can get away with this kind of shit here. I've seen comparably poor macro all the way up to GM. There's 2 possibilities:
1. The OP should actually be ranked higher but is held back by his inferior build.
2. Else, he should be ranked lower but most masters protoss don't even bother to prep/practice for mech so the OP gets away with it.
I can't decide which. I didn't know european people had a special sense for mech counters. Silly me. In all seriousness, if European players are better than American players as a whole by a whole league (exaggeration) and a half (more exaggeration), which makes sense because Europe is like 10 more countries, then they should have the refined mechanics and game sense themselves to be able to figure out how to fine tune this build to make mech work for their opponents in Sweden, Germany, etc... Top masters US will rape low masters EU. Its not that much a difference. EU is better but tbh you can ignore that cuz its so small I agree with Squigly's analysis of the skill gradients on EU and NA. I think it's also worth noting that when evaluating nonstandard play like this, instead of looking at a guy's league or points, it's best just to look at his games and the level his opponents play at. It's fairly clear that this build is viable at the low-mid level-- I guess the real question is whether it's viable in the GM range. That being said, if you, like me, are not GM, this is fun to use/play :D
Quite true, however, there is no "NA" server. AM is significantly worse than NA was, from what I've heard.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 26 2011 06:33 Klyberess wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 06:22 Blazinghand wrote:On December 26 2011 05:58 Squigly wrote:On December 26 2011 05:53 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:On December 26 2011 05:09 Zyphen wrote:
This will only work on the NA server. If our European friends are disappointed by our "masters" level play, sorry. You can get away with this kind of shit here. I've seen comparably poor macro all the way up to GM. There's 2 possibilities:
1. The OP should actually be ranked higher but is held back by his inferior build.
2. Else, he should be ranked lower but most masters protoss don't even bother to prep/practice for mech so the OP gets away with it.
I can't decide which. I didn't know european people had a special sense for mech counters. Silly me. In all seriousness, if European players are better than American players as a whole by a whole league (exaggeration) and a half (more exaggeration), which makes sense because Europe is like 10 more countries, then they should have the refined mechanics and game sense themselves to be able to figure out how to fine tune this build to make mech work for their opponents in Sweden, Germany, etc... Top masters US will rape low masters EU. Its not that much a difference. EU is better but tbh you can ignore that cuz its so small I agree with Squigly's analysis of the skill gradients on EU and NA. I think it's also worth noting that when evaluating nonstandard play like this, instead of looking at a guy's league or points, it's best just to look at his games and the level his opponents play at. It's fairly clear that this build is viable at the low-mid level-- I guess the real question is whether it's viable in the GM range. That being said, if you, like me, are not GM, this is fun to use/play :D Quite true, however, there is no "NA" server. AM is significantly worse than NA was, from what I've heard.
Although that's entirely possible at say, gold league, or wherever most of the less skilled players from LA fed in, NA was a much larger server than LA-- the new AM server's size is larger than NA's, but not enough to increase the size of Master's in a significant fashion.
Also, EU (new) is weaker than EU (old) due to the merger with RU, right?
The main thing is that REGARDLESS, the best way to evaluate this style and the player's skill is to watch the replays rather than theorycraft about the nature of the leagues on different ladders. If his adversary's floating 3k minerals and 2k gas, it doesn't matter if he's GM on KR, even-- it means his opponent wasn't good enough to demonstrate the strategy.
Relying on some inter-server Master League classification to determine whether this build is viable is lazy thinking. Watching the replays and testing it yourself or speaking from your own experience is the only viable thing.
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You should add our game in here....
Just sayin' ^^
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I really like your mech style. IMO you should change the core units to hellion+tank+banshee. The banshees really gives tank+hellion a much needed dps boost and they do solid damage to all types of units. Also scan+snipe obs with cloak units is pretty good. I feel if you can hold of early game and void ray switches it is a good style to play. I am going to try it out since I hate bio and I feel winning/losing a macro game relies way too much on getting really good emps. With this mech style atleast a reasonable macro advantage can be pushed into a win.
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Pretty good mech guide man! I was planning on writing something like this, but its only giving me a 50-60% w/l against high master through mid gm... So it's not really that effective so far... But I'm working on it!
Also, I advise you to get an early ghost tvp rather than a raven if you see robo because a good Protoss (cough kiwi cough) will insta- transition into fast air atk+ carriers and immortals... I think that this build can be better, but I'm not really sure if it's better than mine. If I could see the actual build in action in a custom game or something, I'd be delighted.
Also, you should put some numbers up: for example, 4 tank shots to kill a stalker and 3 to kill an immortal if you emp.
Some counters to mech: nexus first (unless going vs my build) into immortal bust with charelots.
Fast +3 armor upgrades and charge lot immortal blink stalker. (hellions are no good with only +1/ +2 against 4-6 armored zealots  )
Hidden carriers while double expanding after you have 2 immortal blink stalkers to jump around the map.
Double mass harass with prism+immortal stalker
Gl!
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Holy. Shit. This was the best written guide I think I've seen in the past 6 months.
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Thnks for sharing such a good guide... i tried out this playstyle with a friend and it worked out pretty well... A thing to note though is i think ghost are pretty damn good in the composition so getting them after getting a 3rd is pretty good... i got mine a little late but well it worked well.
Here is the replay
http://drop.sc/79778
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On December 26 2011 14:20 ChaoxTech wrote:Pretty good mech guide man! I was planning on writing something like this, but its only giving me a 50-60% w/l against high master through mid gm... So it's not really that effective so far... But I'm working on it! Also, I advise you to get an early ghost tvp rather than a raven if you see robo because a good Protoss (cough kiwi cough) will insta- transition into fast air atk+ carriers and immortals... I think that this build can be better, but I'm not really sure if it's better than mine. If I could see the actual build in action in a custom game or something, I'd be delighted. Also, you should put some numbers up: for example, 4 tank shots to kill a stalker and 3 to kill an immortal if you emp. Some counters to mech: nexus first (unless going vs my build) into immortal bust with charelots. Fast +3 armor upgrades and charge lot immortal blink stalker. (hellions are no good with only +1/ +2 against 4-6 armored zealots ) Hidden carriers while double expanding after you have 2 immortal blink stalkers to jump around the map. Double mass harass with prism+immortal stalker Gl!
Nexus first you can just scout and re-actively all in before you have a factory up. Unless its like taldrim, but playing mech on Taldrim seems iffy anyway.
Double mass harass with prisms? You will have min spare for turrets. And if they are mass harassing, a few turrets and a few vikings patrolling to kill obs and WP deal with this (In theory)
Hidden carriers while double expanding? First off how do you hide carriers. Secondly, any decent player will scout a double expo and tbh just go kill you. (If im wrong please say so)
But yes, fuck 3-3 or tbh even 0-3 charglets. That unit is broken and we all know it.
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On December 26 2011 23:53 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 14:20 ChaoxTech wrote:Pretty good mech guide man! I was planning on writing something like this, but its only giving me a 50-60% w/l against high master through mid gm... So it's not really that effective so far... But I'm working on it! Also, I advise you to get an early ghost tvp rather than a raven if you see robo because a good Protoss (cough kiwi cough) will insta- transition into fast air atk+ carriers and immortals... I think that this build can be better, but I'm not really sure if it's better than mine. If I could see the actual build in action in a custom game or something, I'd be delighted. Also, you should put some numbers up: for example, 4 tank shots to kill a stalker and 3 to kill an immortal if you emp. Some counters to mech: nexus first (unless going vs my build) into immortal bust with charelots. Fast +3 armor upgrades and charge lot immortal blink stalker. (hellions are no good with only +1/ +2 against 4-6 armored zealots ) Hidden carriers while double expanding after you have 2 immortal blink stalkers to jump around the map. Double mass harass with prism+immortal stalker Gl! Nexus first you can just scout and re-actively all in before you have a factory up. Unless its like taldrim, but playing mech on Taldrim seems iffy anyway. Double mass harass with prisms? You will have min spare for turrets. And if they are mass harassing, a few turrets and a few vikings patrolling to kill obs and WP deal with this (In theory) Hidden carriers while double expanding? First off how do you hide carriers. Secondly, any decent player will scout a double expo and tbh just go kill you. (If im wrong please say so) But yes, fuck 3-3 or tbh even 0-3 charglets. That unit is broken and we all know it.
I know it sounds wierd but thors deal with chargelots pretty well especially on similar upgrades.... thors just soak up so much dmg from chargelots while tanks and bfh will juz clear them within seconds... but well after trying out several games with this mech play style i find turtling really important. Mech terran is really strong with 3/3 and i wouldnt hesitate to just turtle till i have 3/3 on both my ground and air army. But well it wouldnt work on all maps (such as altar).
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Mmmh quite interesting, but I really feel that mech is too weak in late game against Protoss.
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I'm watching the replays.
http://drop.sc/78507
This replays shows me doing a suggested Reaper expand into siege tank to fight off his 2 base immortal gateway timing. (This will probably be the timing that wrecks most of you in masters, but the trick is to just prepare for it with sim city and bunkers. Usually the protoss will see the bunkers and not even try, which is why I can get away with some of the stuff I do.
The protoss then transitions into 3 base stargate into carriers. I scouted the stargate and immediately added 6 barracks, got +1 infantry weapons, and did a 180 food timing attack where I brought about 70% of my SCVs. (i had a lot of money in the bank at that point due to poor macro but you get the idea..)
OK, this guy made a big mistake: He kept tech switching and didn't really get anything. Also, that 90 probe amount is just stupid. Off 3 running bases (That fourth did not count. No probes were there) don't you want 72 or around? The main mistake this guy made was just making probes. By the time you hit you met an army worth almost half the same as yours (And you pulled SCVS, adding an extra 20 food to that push). He also only had 5 gateways and 3 stargates. That's not enough to produce off 3 base, he should have like 10 gateways, especially once he gets maxed (Which he didn't because he only made probes). You also had the best counter to his army: Lots of marines vs lots of immortals, and vikings versus carriers in pretty one sided. A bunch of zealots tanking for archons may have completely changed the scenario.
In summary, that protoss knew what was coming, and essentially completely did everything wrong.
http://drop.sc/78510This replay shows me holding off a 4 gate Warpprism rush using maurauders, helions, scvs and eventually a viking to ward his warp prism off. I then transition into exactly what my build describes getting banshees and helions. I constantly send groups of banshees from the top of his base, drop helions from the side of his base, and run helions into his natural. He eventually slip up and I get 20 probe kills in the main. He then tries to all in me but I had just the right amount of units to hold him off. I expand to the gold and proceed to win the game.
That guy wasn't all-inning. He did a 4 gate and then expanded behind it. He knew that he would play the rest of the game behind you. And even more than that first game, you pushed out with a 190 supply army against a peasly 130 supply army. The reason is you completely destroyed his economy (At one point he was at 36 probes compared to the over 50 of yours, plus MULES). He was playing the entire game economically behind you, and you could've pretty much killed him by producing almost anything.
I'll look at the other replays at some point, I just wanted to jot down my opinions on those two. Even though it might sound like I'm heavily criticising your build, I'm not. I've been thinking of ways to make mech work as well, and watching your stuff, I liked a lot of it.
You have a good early build order
You know how many production facilities
You show how to use mech to harass and pressure, and how to hold off pressure yourself
But because your still experimenting, a lot of cinches have to be ironed out. Show games where you lose,and explain your own opinion on why you think you lost. Maybe add another section, weaknesses of the build, because there has to be some major problems somewhere, or someone would have fully researched it already.
Quite true, however, there is no "NA" server. AM is significantly worse than NA was, from what I've heard.
Are you suggesting that the South American users suck? Also, they can't have seriously changed the system, there were only about 20,000 or so to start with, compared to the 280,000 on NA.
Top masters US will rape low masters EU. Its not that much a difference. EU is better but tbh you can ignore that cuz its so small
There are about 310,000 users on NA compared to about 270,000 users on EU (Active accounts from this season). Is the difference that big really? Playing on EU means that there is a smaller player pool, and you'll be playing people more often in the higher leagues. So naturally the only way you can beat that person is by becoming better than them: refining builds, better macro, better everything. That is why the general skill of top EU players is slightly above the NA one. On the other hand, that becomes unimportant once you hit the area around Grandmasters: 200 players, plus the people who almost but didn't quite make the list stays almost exactly the same in number.
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Ok have been trying this all night. I must admit this is the best version of mech (or non bio) I have seen. I think terran needs to play like zerg in TvZ i.e. the early to mid game you have to be on the point with your scouting and game sense. You need to make good reads and respond very well. However once you get enough bases and static defense, then you have a crazy strong deathball that will always trade cost effectively if you position well and force engagements (a style I love playing).
Of course terran being terran, you still have to be careful about army movement and stuff but people who like and use a lot of siege tank play should be at home with this style.
Also Nexus first is really easy to stop with this build. If I socut a nexus first, I drop the fe and go into marine bunker pressure into hellion harass into cloak banshee and then expo or 111 all in. I really don't see a nexus first holding that much pressure unless you somehow manage to lose all marines and scvs to hs one zealot+probes in the beginning.
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On December 26 2011 23:53 Squigly wrote:
Nexus first you can just scout and re-actively all in before you have a factory up. Unless its like taldrim, but playing mech on Taldrim seems iffy anyway.
Double mass harass with prisms? You will have min spare for turrets. And if they are mass harassing, a few turrets and a few vikings patrolling to kill obs and WP deal with this (In theory)
Hidden carriers while double expanding? First off how do you hide carriers. Secondly, any decent player will scout a double expo and tbh just go kill you. (If im wrong please say so)
But yes, fuck 3-3 or tbh even 0-3 charglets. That unit is broken and we all know it.
I find throwing in about 15 repair scvs (you can easily affords it with the amount of orbitals you can have) along with the hellion ball, in front of tanks, is a lot better against chargelots. Engaging in chokes almost always tears through 3/3 chargelots provided you have decent numbers of +3 tanks.
I also feel banshees are a very important part of this build and should always be made unless you are absolutely forced off them. The map control, obs snipe+cloak and the dps is way too good. Unlike the hellion I feel banshees play a role more similar to vultures. They give you vision and map control for your immobile mech, are a mobile force to respond to harass, force obs with groups of units, force gas units/cannons at home because of their harass potential etc. Also banshee+tank dps gets out of and in the late game, they melt through immos and archons (remember to magic box them against archons!).
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3/3 chargelots?? 0/3 is BAD, HORRIBLE against mech. Double forge can be punished,and attack is better than armor vs mech. Why? because 0/3 chargelots have 4 armor, and 2 mech attack negates 4 armor for hellions, for siege tanks +1 is enough. At +2 mech attack you get 4 shotted by siege tanks anyways. And failing to get attack ups when the mech player has say +1 armor means your chargelots do 12 dmg to tanks and 14 to hellions, your stalkers now utterly suck as a half of their life is made of shields anyway, collosus dont 3 shot hellion, immortals 4 shot tanks.
The advantage of mech is that ff is useless against it and thus you can punish double forge either by denying them a 3rd before 2/2, when your 3rd is up and running already, or timing pushing if protoss gets greedy with his ups and expos. 3/3 protoss upgrades are about equal to 2/2 mech i would say because of the disparity in damage added by the ups. Double forge is not viable unless you get a 3rd up at relatively the same time as T, which you won't cause he sees double forge and then proceeds to contain you on your 2 bases. Take a 3rd, get timing pushed.
Mass harass can be problematic, it's such a shame to spend 500 minerals on turrets and let the toss expand cause you'll be behind in supply.For all terran ground units, 1 supply=50 minerals. With mech, you'll be spending all the gas you can get anyway. Banshees are good early-mid but tend to suck late game, because of the upgrades. It's like biomech, terran can not go 2 tech-trees simultaneously because of split ups, plus they are more expensive than their zerg or toss counterparts.
Bio tends to afford viking attack ups because of the spare gas, mech needs all of its gas into ghosts, upgrades(especially attack, and armor to match toss attack), and more tanks.Let's say you have +2 attack tanks that 4 shot zealots.Protoss at this point has at least 1 armor and 1 attack, maybe even 2 attack 1 armor. Do you build a banshee which now 8 shots stalkers and zealots, and gets 12 shotted by stalkers or a tank that has the same durability but 3 shots stalkers and 4 shots zealots?Banshee dps gets at tank level, you wont be able to harass as much as early game, is vastly inferior to the tank in direct combat, because I did not even count first shot damage and splash, as well as 13 range.
Any banshees that you make, make them before +2 mech. Obs snipe is gimmicky, as you need marines or vikings to pull it off,which become useless fast enough. And toss can keep an obs close and send it in after he cleans your tanks, which by the way were what made your composition work, and he warps in a round of stalkers to deter your banshees.
Banshee's usefulness is determined by probe kills,how many cannons you force, and the map control that you gain.Cloak is not needed unless you rush for it, Toss will build a ton of obs anyway as the possibility of cloak will eat at him.Unless you know that a banshee can mess up your opponent in the ways mentioned, just build a tank, and watch how your 3/3 200/200 tank hellion ghost demolishes his army once you doom push.
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Low master Protoss player here.
I met a player doing this a long time ago so I can't provide any replay. From what I recalled I 1gate FE and went for a lot robo unit (immortals & colossi), and also took my third really early since people say macroing hard is the best way to deal with mech play (i.e. abusing the low mobility).
But still, as the tank count grows, I can't see a way to properly engage a fight against this. Even immortals would die fast once a critical mass of tanks is reached + banshees focusing them, colossi won't be super useful because of the range difference of 6 with siege tanks.
Maybe air play ? But phoenixes are barely useful, and voidrays can get outmicroed by vikings convincingly. And I'm not going to mention carriers.
Also, harassment gets shut down once there are enough tanks and turrets out (warp prisms becoming risky + eating away robo production time, blink stalkers rendered useless as well as DTs). Sure it may help at the very beginning but it will just merely delay the mech doompush since it's so hard to engage it in a cost efficient way - let alone kill it before it reaches that stage. As games draw out it will get impossible to kill that army imo.
So, have you guys faced any convincing way to fight this build ? I'd like some hints not involving randomly blind countering it (like with nexus first) or all-inning it (seems like an immortal timings are fearsome, but can it be done effectively and quickly enough on 2 bases ?). At the moment I kinda feel like you have to hit an early timing with something quite gimmicky to shut this down before it gets out of control.
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On December 27 2011 05:16 rgTheSchworz wrote:
Banshee's usefulness is determined by probe kills,how many cannons you force, and the map control that you gain.Cloak is not needed unless you rush for it, Toss will build a ton of obs anyway as the possibility of cloak will eat at him.Unless you know that a banshee can mess up your opponent in the ways mentioned, just build a tank, and watch how your 3/3 200/200 tank hellion ghost demolishes his army once you doom push.
I think the thing you're forgetting is the nature of Terran production capacity.
If we could magically switch production between tech lines, then yes, its better to build a +2 Attack Tank than a +0 Attack Banshee. But we can't. We need some Starports on the field to guard against the possibility of Stargate tech switch. The two biggest weaknesses of mech are: 1. Its immobility 2. Its difficulty to remax. Stargate exploits both of those weaknesses to the fullest, which is why it is so important for the Terran to have enough air control to prevent that from happening. We need the Starports beforehand to guard against the *possibility*, so we might as well use its production instead of building an extra factory for that extra tank.
The most successful pro I know of who favors the Tank/Ghost/Hellion mix you mentioned is Goody. And if you watch his games, in the mid-lategame he almost always keeps a fleet of ~6 Vikings around ONLY to discourage Stargate/Collosi/WarpPrism. He keeps them around even whike facing Zealot/Archon and Blink-heavy army compositions because the threat of such a tech switch is so great (and 3/3 mech is so powerful) that he can afford to tie up 10+ supply into flying paperweights.
The only difference between what Goody and the OP does, is that the OP is replacing the preemptive Vikings with Banshees. And then hoping that his scouting is good enough to react to a Stargate/Collosi/WarpPrism switch in time. So yeah, its a bit more risky, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. As long as said tech switch doesn't happen, the Banshees are much more useful than Vikings vs most other compositions.
Its risk vs reward. The Vikings are better at preventing WP/Stargate (which hard counters mech, but is rare) but the Banshees make your core army better vs ground army compositions (which soft counters mech, but is common).
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Yeah man you re somewhat right, but i feel that putting up starport and making more than 3 vikings is really a waste and makes mech non.viable.Instead,have 1 starport, go up to 3 if you see 2 stargates +, have 8-10 rines from the early game, and GOSU scout. I mean with the scouting capabilities of mech(those 2-3 vikings, hellions, more leftover scans than bio, dropping his main give you scouting info also.) being FAR superior to anything else in the game, why not use them to the fullest?
As avilo whines, vikings are useless vs non colossus/air. Solution: Dont get them unless you see stargates popping. 2-3 is largely enough with any rines left and possible turrets.I mean, c'mon he can't do anything with 2-3 voids, you'll just kite them to death. And for more you need stargates +at least 2 production cycles right? That's 3 minutes, 3 minutes in which you should have scouted.
On 3 base assuming you have not seen stargates, you should have 7 facts, 3 reactor 4 tlab, 2 port 1 react 1 tlab.
On the other hand, remaxing with mech after losing your whole army is troublesome, yes, and if you lose it, gg unless you have slightly better economy than the toss. But remaxing after winning is the easiest thing in the world. Assuming 3 base, because you won't attack on 2 base except for timings, where if you lose you gg. Let's say you won that battle, and you have 6 tanks,3 hellions left, I hope i am not exaggerating things. Off 3 base you can produce 4 tanks 6 hellions at a time, in 1:30 game time you have 14 tanks, 21 hellions, provided you pull back or deal with the chargelot warp-in. Enough to re-push I would say, if you have 3-4 ghosts.
Air switches dont just happen all of a sudden, you need stargates, to upgrade air weapons, and a fleet beacon because since void speed has gone, you can kite them with vikings without barely any losses. Also 2 vikings rape a void while 3 vikings at equal ups are equal in every way to a carrier.Without air ups, you lose to 2/2 or 3/3 thors who rape your interceptors while they barely take any damage.Without carriers, the right amount of vikings decimates you.It's not as simple as that.
You can't have air control and ground control at the same time without a better eco than him,except through constant hellion drops. Keep to factories as the toss keeps to gates and robos.Don't waste resources on starports and vikings or banshees when you don't need them.Also, to be able to push lategame with mech, you gotta have 3 things:
1. 3/2 or better upgrades. Without 3 mech attack your maxed army is ... mediocre.
2. Army supply larger than his.By 20 or so i would say since probe count should be around 70-80 while scvs at 50-60.I'm not talking abouy super late game when you can afford to keep only 30 scvs for gas. I'm talking about your first max
3. Adequate numbers of emp. You see, mech late game suddenly becomes mobile.With 3/3 or 3/2 you can afford to walk unsieged and siege as he comes toward you. Emp lets you speed that up.Assuming all of his army is emp-ed, you're looking at a 33 to 50 percent decrease in the health of his units.Will he walk into you, even unsieged, In that state????
I seriously don't think it's a good idea. Assuming you siege your front tanks as soon as your hellions spot aggresion coming,it's not even close.Don't siege the tanks in the back unless he is attacking, if you lose some hellions it's no biggie as they are free and produced instantly,that way you get really mobile late game.
A properly done late game-push is what you aim for when meching, I don't see Goody doing that.
In my opinion, someone who queues that much and has bad macro isnt an example.The fact that 3/3 mech is powerful shouldnt be interpreted as if you are allowed to throw 10+ supply out the window for safety.No, you maximize on your opportunity to have a 15-20% bigger army that is mobile once upgrades are done and enough emps are ready.
When someone posts a replay of ''THE PUSH'' , eventually stating why it would not work, then you can say that mech does or does not work.So far i have seen turtling,waiting for protoss to get impatient and attack,splitting the map, all-ins,thor-based comps, and other stuff from our fellow SC2 strategy posters at TL.Feel free to point me towards a rep where T fast pushes P at 200/200 with mech.
So far, I have not seen a 200/200 Tank hellion ghost with 3-4 thors rolling across the map with the protoss backing,stalling for extra warpgates, baiting it onto his side of the map, because in the middle, with no pylons, and T's reinforcing path being shorter, It is unfightable.
When we will see this kind of push succeed or fail, then we have the answer to the question'' Is SC2 mech viable in TvP?''
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EPT
