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[D] Zerg Inject Method Poll - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 10:32:38
March 16 2012 10:31 GMT
#41
I am playing like stephano and tlo me gosugusta
hardcore in the early mid and backspace in lategame
but rebound backspace to mouse4 and space is my burrow
invisible tetris level master
ckolev
Profile Joined September 2009
51 Posts
March 16 2012 10:32 GMT
#42
Of course it's far slower, pure physics prove it. Using a mouse is never as fast as using a keyboard. Just because DRG uses it and is one of the best zergs doesn't mean the method itself is better, it just means he's better. The difference between inject methods is not big enough to win or lose you games anyway, it's just easier to get good at it using an effective system


Actually I disagree. Fast injects in battle is better. If you take 5-10 seconds to inject, you are not microing your army. If you take 2 seconds to inject - in battle, this difference is HUGE!!
Madera
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
March 16 2012 10:58 GMT
#43
@Tobberoth, I don't know which method you use but I'm guessing the backspace method. Yes, your method will always be a bit faster than either binding your queens or your hatcheries. You're not going to lose games because of which injecting method you use but I still prefer hotkeying my hatcheries because it personally gives me more control.

They are both as you put it, effective systems and I'm not arguing that mine is better. DRG is not the best Zerg in the world because of the way he injects but I was stating that the setup I use is as fast as it needs to be to be used in high-end competitive play.

Feel free to explain more reasons why it's good to hotkey hatcheries individually compared to have saved locations. I already noted inject progression, but it isn't needed if you have the timings down (with proper location keys, you can keep checking your bases constantly anyway, it's extremely fast) and if you want more keys for your units, it's a high price to pay.

Okay, so first of all, I use both camera hotkeys on my bases and I hotkey my hatcheries. The reasons why I like hotkeying them individually are purely personal and won't help your play except checking for larva progression but I'd advise against checking your progression with camera hotkeys because you don't want your eyes and hands doing the same thing, i.e, macroing and looking at your base.

I still think tapping to see your larva progress is really good even though you know the timings in your head (I do). Would you like to explain a little bit more why you think it's unnecessary? I'm happy with having my army on 3 control groups so I wouldn't really call it sacrificing control groups for hatcheries.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 11:29:14
March 16 2012 11:28 GMT
#44
On March 16 2012 19:58 Madera wrote:
@Tobberoth, I don't know which method you use but I'm guessing the backspace method. Yes, your method will always be a bit faster than either binding your queens or your hatcheries. You're not going to lose games because of which injecting method you use but I still prefer hotkeying my hatcheries because it personally gives me more control.

They are both as you put it, effective systems and I'm not arguing that mine is better. DRG is not the best Zerg in the world because of the way he injects but I was stating that the setup I use is as fast as it needs to be to be used in high-end competitive play.

Show nested quote +
Feel free to explain more reasons why it's good to hotkey hatcheries individually compared to have saved locations. I already noted inject progression, but it isn't needed if you have the timings down (with proper location keys, you can keep checking your bases constantly anyway, it's extremely fast) and if you want more keys for your units, it's a high price to pay.

Okay, so first of all, I use both camera hotkeys on my bases and I hotkey my hatcheries. The reasons why I like hotkeying them individually are purely personal and won't help your play except checking for larva progression but I'd advise against checking your progression with camera hotkeys because you don't want your eyes and hands doing the same thing, i.e, macroing and looking at your base.

I still think tapping to see your larva progress is really good even though you know the timings in your head (I do). Would you like to explain a little bit more why you think it's unnecessary? I'm happy with having my army on 3 control groups so I wouldn't really call it sacrificing control groups for hatcheries.

I use the darkgrid system, I have all queens on a mouse button, all hatcheries on another mouse button, inject on E. I then use camera hotkeys (alt+q for main, alt+w for nat, alt+a for third, alt+s for fourth, alt+d for fith and alt+f for first macro hatch). To inject, I press the queen button, hold shift and press E, then while holding shift with my pinky and alt with my tumb, I press qwasdf while clicking in the middle. Since the key to base corresponds, after using it enough, it becomes second nature, so if I just want to inject my main, my nat and my macro hatch, I just press qwf. It might sound complex, but when you're used to it, it's more or less just as fast as backspace inject, with all the control of individual hatch selection.

I personally don't feel it matters where the camera goes if the system is fast enough. I feel that if you tap hatcheries then manually select queens, you're talking too long and you have to actually focus your eyes on what you're doing, so there I agree with you, but with the darkgrid system, you're not actually "using" your eyes, the camera is just jumping, so it's as easy as backspace inject to do while you're focusing on a battle, it literally takes 1-2 seconds to inject 6 hatcheries if you're used to it. As for checking injection, with camera hotkeys within reach like this, I jump and check bases constantly, so there's no need for me to have a timer or even know the timings perfectly, I'm checking my bases often enough to keep my attention on it.

Should be noted that with darkgrid system, you can use pretty much a hotkey for every single unit type, so for us, it really makes a difference what you put on your hotkeys. I personally don't use much more than 3 hotkeys for army (because my mechanics aren't good enough to keep track of more), but each hotkey has its own unit associated with it which has some nice benefits. I have lings on R, mutas on V, infestors on space, banelings on 4, bulk army on G etc.
Madera
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
March 16 2012 12:11 GMT
#45
@Tobberoth, We obviously disagree on how long is too long when you're injecting your hatcheries but that's fine. I haven't found any annoyance with focusing my eyes but it may be because you're not used to it. For me, it's rather easy to tap back, select the queen and inject without having my eyes focus for more than a split second. It's easy to find inconveniences in each other's methods because we don't use them on a daily basis.

The Darkgrid layout seems pretty cool and definitely better than the standard backspace method so I'll have to check it out and see if I like it. It might drive me insane though because I've been using my setup for 3-4 years.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
March 16 2012 12:16 GMT
#46
On March 16 2012 21:11 Madera wrote:
@Tobberoth, We obviously disagree on how long is too long when you're injecting your hatcheries but that's fine. I haven't found any annoyance with focusing my eyes but it may be because you're not used to it. For me, it's rather easy to tap back, select the queen and inject without having my eyes focus for more than a split second. It's easy to find inconveniences in each other's methods because we don't use them on a daily basis.

The Darkgrid layout seems pretty cool and definitely better than the standard backspace method so I'll have to check it out and see if I like it. It might drive me insane though because I've been using my setup for 3-4 years.

Yeah, that's really the big problem with Darkgrid. The system is amazing and extremely efficient, but it's a big commitment to learn how to use it. I switched from Standard to Grid early on in SC2, so I was at least somewhat used to switching setups, but it still took almost a week before I became really proficient in Darkgrid.

I've never once regretted it though
willverrecken
Profile Joined March 2012
80 Posts
March 16 2012 12:32 GMT
#47
i started by doing everything with the mouse without any hotkeys and later decided to hotkey the individual hatcheries.
i try to have two hatches next to each other with one of them hotkeyed so 3 hotkeys is enough for 4 queens but i can't always do it and 8 is difficult to reach for me so i would inject the 4th with the mouse.

i thought about switching to the backspace method because it seems significantly faster but the whole queens running around the map to queen less hatches thing put me off. if you hit stop after your inject cycle i suspect some injects will get messed up as well cause queens went a little too far off or something and then you just tell them to stop resulting in them doing nothing but moving a few steps.

Spec
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Taiwan931 Posts
March 16 2012 12:53 GMT
#48
My woman would be proud that I am hardcore style.
I use both all hatch on a hotkey and one hotkey for each hatch, and I go to each base using the individual hotkeys.
I am one tough mofo.
Eye for an eye make the world go blind - Gandhi
AveSharia
Profile Joined April 2011
United States62 Posts
March 16 2012 14:44 GMT
#49
On March 16 2012 17:47 ckolev wrote:
I use the "Backspace" inject when my hatcheries are equal to my queens (3 or 4 usually) , but my hotkeys are very re-ordered.

What I use is CTRL_group_4 for the queens, W key for the "base camera" hotkey and E for inject larva on the queen. My injects look like:

4->E->W+click

Since 4, E and W keys are very close, its actually gives additional speed to the total action sequence (1-1.5 seconds to inject 4 hatcheries)

In late game, then I have 6+ hatcheries, I use what you called the "Hardcore" style, as the "base camera" one mixes up my queens. With 6+ hatcheries, you don't need to be so precise on the injects, if I inject 4 hatcheries and I have 2-3 more, usually that's over 20 larva from one inject cycle.


Holy c@#$, there are two of us?! The only difference is I hit "stop" (S by default, space bar for me) after the whole sequence to stop the roaming queens (usually within a second of the hatch, because this method is so fast).

W as base camera is so OP for all races (T is my main).
Firetail
Profile Joined February 2011
United States4 Posts
March 16 2012 16:02 GMT
#50
I usually use the "55v66v77v" as mentioned. If I have a lot of hatcheries then I usually just do my normal injects and then manually inject with the queens I don't have hot keyed.

I tried using the backspace method for a couple of games but my queen number would sometimes be greater or less than my hatch number so there would be queens running all over the map.
"We push ourselves to the end, and when we reach it, we push farther! So... I guess that's not really the end, is it?" -Protoss Phoenix
kaluro
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands760 Posts
March 16 2012 16:27 GMT
#51
On March 16 2012 17:42 Tobberoth wrote:
I use the Darkgrid method. It's without a doubt the best method since it's just as fast as backspace inject, but with way more control, you only inject the hatches you want to inject, and in the order you want to inject them, so there's no queens running around or any other BS.


This clearly shows that you're promoting a method while throwing another one in the dirt for no reason.
With the backspace inject method, you use S at the end of your cycle so that your queens hold ground.
www.twitch.tv/kaluroo - 720p60fps - Remember the name! - Don't do your best, do whatever it takes.
Math.random();
Profile Joined July 2011
433 Posts
March 16 2012 16:30 GMT
#52
I have every hatch on a single hotkey and no queens on any hotkey. Becuause I love flexibility, checking the bar to the next inject and having not to use f1,2,3,4 to jump quickly to my base to pull drones in case of a drop. It may be slower but I don't think I'm having a big disadvantage with it. If I've 5+ I'm trying to hold down backspace+shift+v+spam right click.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
March 16 2012 16:55 GMT
#53
On March 17 2012 01:27 kaluro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 17:42 Tobberoth wrote:
I use the Darkgrid method. It's without a doubt the best method since it's just as fast as backspace inject, but with way more control, you only inject the hatches you want to inject, and in the order you want to inject them, so there's no queens running around or any other BS.


This clearly shows that you're promoting a method while throwing another one in the dirt for no reason.
With the backspace inject method, you use S at the end of your cycle so that your queens hold ground.


But using 'S' at the end of the inject cycle to prevent wandering queens doesn't resolve the issue that the hatches those wandering queens were on their way to go uninjected. I'm not pew-pew'ing the Backspace method, I use it partially as well, but it's still a problem.
Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
March 16 2012 17:04 GMT
#54
On March 17 2012 01:30 Math.random(); wrote:
I have every hatch on a single hotkey and no queens on any hotkey. Becuause I love flexibility, checking the bar to the next inject and having not to use f1,2,3,4 to jump quickly to my base to pull drones in case of a drop. It may be slower but I don't think I'm having a big disadvantage with it. If I've 5+ I'm trying to hold down backspace+shift+v+spam right click.


A lot of people who use camera hotkeys etc seem to forget about the larva meter. Unless your looking at your base you cannot see your larva progress with camera hotkeys and though you can guess its nice to have it exactly right. Personally I don't use my all hatcheries key (0) until lategame because 4sd5sd6sd7sd etc gives me much more control over both my injects but also ensuring no hatcheries have over 3 larva.
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
March 16 2012 17:05 GMT
#55
Whenever I offrace, I use the "hardcore" style because it feels... well.. hardcore
Life's good :D
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
March 16 2012 17:12 GMT
#56
On March 17 2012 02:04 Iksf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 01:30 Math.random(); wrote:
I have every hatch on a single hotkey and no queens on any hotkey. Becuause I love flexibility, checking the bar to the next inject and having not to use f1,2,3,4 to jump quickly to my base to pull drones in case of a drop. It may be slower but I don't think I'm having a big disadvantage with it. If I've 5+ I'm trying to hold down backspace+shift+v+spam right click.


A lot of people who use camera hotkeys etc seem to forget about the larva meter. Unless your looking at your base you cannot see your larva progress with camera hotkeys and though you can guess its nice to have it exactly right. Personally I don't use my all hatcheries key (0) until lategame because 4sd5sd6sd7sd etc gives me much more control over both my injects but also ensuring no hatcheries have over 3 larva.


Can't you activate a camera hotkey to look at a hatch status bar as quickly as you could activate the control group ? I know I can. It's basically the same thing, just checking in either the wire-frame or the main screen. In both cases, it's one keystroke to check, and one keystroke to return to whatever you were doing.
iiGreetings
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada563 Posts
March 16 2012 18:35 GMT
#57
Great tip, for those backspacer injectors like myself, you should re keybind it to spacebar. I can inject 3 hatcheries in probably 2 seconds. (3=hatches) (2=queens).... 33,2, V,space,V,space,v, space. boom done. That's what i have done for a while and i absolutely love it.
Adapt and React I MKP, PartinG, EffOrt ♥
iiGreetings
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada563 Posts
March 16 2012 18:40 GMT
#58
On March 17 2012 01:27 kaluro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 17:42 Tobberoth wrote:
I use the Darkgrid method. It's without a doubt the best method since it's just as fast as backspace inject, but with way more control, you only inject the hatches you want to inject, and in the order you want to inject them, so there's no queens running around or any other BS.


This clearly shows that you're promoting a method while throwing another one in the dirt for no reason.
With the backspace inject method, you use S at the end of your cycle so that your queens hold ground.

...wow as a master zerg, all the things i have perfected in this game... having like 3 queens for 5 hatches and your queens not running around like fools... just hit 's'... so simple...

I'm going to go throw up, then play toss
Adapt and React I MKP, PartinG, EffOrt ♥
AveSharia
Profile Joined April 2011
United States62 Posts
March 26 2012 20:50 GMT
#59
On March 17 2012 01:55 Kaitlin wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 17 2012 01:27 kaluro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 17:42 Tobberoth wrote:
I use the Darkgrid method. It's without a doubt the best method since it's just as fast as backspace inject, but with way more control, you only inject the hatches you want to inject, and in the order you want to inject them, so there's no queens running around or any other BS.


This clearly shows that you're promoting a method while throwing another one in the dirt for no reason.
With the backspace inject method, you use S at the end of your cycle so that your queens hold ground.


But using 'S' at the end of the inject cycle to prevent wandering queens doesn't resolve the issue that the hatches those wandering queens were on their way to go uninjected. I'm not pew-pew'ing the Backspace method, I use it partially as well, but it's still a problem.


I might be missing something about DarkGrid, but is there something about that inject method that injects hatches with no queens nearby? I mean I just assume that if I want a hatch injected, I have to have a queen for it.
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
March 26 2012 21:16 GMT
#60
2 base early on => backspace method (bound to Space)
later => custom camera / minimap method when microing

When you build a macro hatch right besides your main or nat, you can use one custom camera hotkey for those two hatches (i think this is the reason for the frequently seen side-by-side macro hatch placement.
21 is half the truth
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