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On March 17 2012 01:55 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 01:27 kaluro wrote:On March 16 2012 17:42 Tobberoth wrote:
I use the Darkgrid method. It's without a doubt the best method since it's just as fast as backspace inject, but with way more control, you only inject the hatches you want to inject, and in the order you want to inject them, so there's no queens running around or any other BS.
This clearly shows that you're promoting a method while throwing another one in the dirt for no reason. With the backspace inject method, you use S at the end of your cycle so that your queens hold ground. But using 'S' at the end of the inject cycle to prevent wandering queens doesn't resolve the issue that the hatches those wandering queens were on their way to go uninjected. I'm not pew-pew'ing the Backspace method, I use it partially as well, but it's still a problem.
If you dont use shift but instead just hold the V button like you would when placing forcefields for example, and hit S at the end, I think it works as it should. I'd have to test though.
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Thanks for making this post, making my switch to Zerg much easier :D
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I use the backspace style, but I have queens bound to '0' and inject set to '=' (key next to backspace). I then use an external interval timer to time and synchronize my injects. It has some drawbacks with the sync of hatches and need to reset the timer if I miss it for whatever reason, but in silver it works just fine and the timer is jsut one klick on my smartphone.
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I don't get why people group all queens in one hotkey. Isn't it easier to just leave them unbound and manually target them to inject as you cycle thru hatches with space or camera hotkeys?
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^ The backspace method is sooo fast, and with getting a queen for every hatch, in extreme lategame you just have sooo much larva, and a ton of queens. I always make a queen for every hatch (and make a macro hatch+queen too, either after 2nd or third for either ling or roach based play respectively), so in lategame, I have a ton of queens to supplement my bl/infestor army. If they all die, it's okay, I have over 8 hatches so I don't need injects anymore, but I think that mass queen support always ends the game...
I know that no pro uses the backspace method, but god damn the injecting is so much quicker to do, and in later game when you have more than 3 hatches, you just get so much more larva while the other methods limit you to only injecting 3 hatches, maybe 4, at most. There's just no competition with 5+ hatches all with constant, on time injects.
I think most pros use alternative methods because they are former BW pros. The only advantage I see to the other inject methods is a little more control, like making roaches at your pressured third instead of at any available hatch, but you can manually control that, just like other inject styles are doing anyways, with the backspace method anyways. I mean, all they are doing is manually making the larva at that specific hatch, and you can do that regardless of what inject style you do.
This is something i think about a lot. I mean NO pro uses the backspace method. But it's just soooo much more larva, and soooo much more faster, I really feel like it's only out of habit that the pros don't use this method. I know, if a queen isn't at that hatch it can screw it up with walking queens everywhere, but that's solved by simply hitting "stop" to all queens after issuing an inject chain, or simply not injecting when that hatch pops up - after all, the other inject methods are manually injecting, so it's not any slower to simply just not inject that one hatch vs injecting another way.
You can also get away with a little more with the backspace method too. Missing an inject on 5x queen+hatch isn't as punishing as missing it with 3x queens, because you just have so many more hatches with queens. Even with worse macro, you will have more larva... I've just never had a problem with walking queens, making extra queens with limited supply, the cost of the extra queens, et cetera, and it seems the benefits of sooooo much more larva is sooo much better, and with proper adjustment there really isn't any downside...
Also - Oh shit a ling runby, "4 -> move to ramp -> shift+hold",
or
Oh shit void rays "4 -> a-move"
is useful with all queens on the same hotkey. If for some reason I need to mass queens due to such air pressure in the early game, I'll even have it so I have "4" as Queens equal to Hatch Count for injecting, and then "2" as all other queens, so my injecting isn't screwed up and I can have my extra queens as dedicated base air defense.
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All hatches on 5, all queens on 6. Then come camera save points.
I have all my hatches, in order of build, mapped to the F keys. F1 = main, F2 = nat, F3 = third, F4 = fourth, etc. I place macro hatches next to other hatches so I can hit them both in the same frame.
I originally started with the backspace method, remapped of course. It was good, is good, I use it still every now and then when I only have like 2-3 hatches all queened. Problem was I'd get trigger happy, produce units in unideal locations, etc. I'd tend to cycle through and forget certain things. The camera keys help remind me of stuff, increase accuracy in times, etc. So I've made the transition to that.
It's easier for instance to go thru my injection cycle, regardless of what base I end on I immediately go to the one I want drones on, click, sddddddddd, then 5, szzzzzzzzzzzz type thing. Just works for me.
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I use a mixture of backspace and hardcore. I find late game hardcore becomes more useful because i got to look back at my base and upgrade, build, tech and adjust rallies and check drone saturation more often. Backspace does prop up in late game now and again when i'm under pressure and know i need the larva but dont have the luxury of time.
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I started out with on queen on each hotkey. But it was to slow compared to backspace. After a while, backspace REALLY frustrated me, because of the wandering queen problem. So the method felt fast, but really wasnt.
Now, I use the fkeys for each base, have all the queens on one hotkey, then I select the queens and go f1 inject, f2 inject, etc. Not as fast as backspace, but more accurate. Not as accurate as each queen in their own group, but slightly faster.
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I'm confused, why not the backspace method? If the wandering queen thing is an issue - why not just not click inject on hatches with no queen? It will surely be just as fast as the time it takes to click the queen I think.
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On April 24 2012 17:51 HansK wrote:
I'm confused, why not the backspace method? If the wandering queen thing is an issue - why not just not click inject on hatches with no queen? It will surely be just as fast as the time it takes to click the queen I think.
What makes the backspace so fast, is that you dont have to see anything before you click the injects. So when you have a differing number of queens and hatches, the queens start wandering off. If you have to slow down the backspace method to see wether the current hatch has a queen or no, then the method becomes slow. Slow to a point were I prefer the method I mentioned above.
Edit: Im not sure if you got my method right? I dont click the individual queens. I have them all in the same group, which I select before I start the procedure.
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I use Optimus 1.3, so control alt + Q, W, E, F, A, and or S, is how I create camera hotkeys, and alt-Q etc is how I jump. I have queens bound to back mouse and hatch bound to forward mouse. Extra queens bound to 5.
So, I hit backmouse, hold down shift and alt and press E, then Q-click-W-click-E-click etc until all hatch are done. I can hold alt and press Q-W-E-F-A-S to check hatches up to 6 bases as well.
So, I guess I use hardcore?
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On April 24 2012 18:12 Fencer710 wrote:
I use Optimus 1.3, so control alt + Q, W, E, F, A, and or S, is how I create camera hotkeys, and alt-Q etc is how I jump. I have queens bound to back mouse and hatch bound to forward mouse. Extra queens bound to 5.
So, I hit backmouse, hold down shift and alt and press E, then Q-click-W-click-E-click etc until all hatch are done. I can hold alt and press Q-W-E-F-A-S to check hatches up to 6 bases as well.
So, I guess I use hardcore?
hardcore style most of the time does not bind queen to a hotkey, but close enough 
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On April 24 2012 17:51 HansK wrote:
I'm confused, why not the backspace method? If the wandering queen thing is an issue - why not just not click inject on hatches with no queen? It will surely be just as fast as the time it takes to click the queen I think.
Even though the wandering queen can be solved by hitting "stop" hotkey or "hold position" hotkey after every backspace spam. The problem with backspace is when you have a lot of hatches but not enough queens (for example, 8 hatches but 4 queens), sometimes you need to spam 2 or 3 times to get the injects because the queens might not be targeting the hatches they are closest to. So to make the method effective, you have to have almost 1 queen per hatch.
Here comes the problem. with 1 queen per hatch in the mid-late game, you will for sure have enough larvae, but you don't have the supply for units because queens are 2 supply each. And if you keep your injects consistent, which is almost a must as a zerg player, 4 queens is more than enough.
On the other hand, no one is perfect. So you must miss inject some time. Thats when macro hatches comes into play. Put down macro hatches next to the queens so they can double inject, and that solves the not enough larvae problem.
So thats why a lot of pros don't backspace inject. They either bind individual queens (IdrA, Destiny), or do a faster method, which is the hardcore style I introduced in the OP. For me, I broke my backspace inject habit about a month or two ago, and started to only use the base camera for moving to the hatches, and all i do next is box the middle of the screen and select units (queen will get prioritized above anything else), then v - click on the hatch, if there is more than one hatch next to that queen and I have excessive energy to double even triple inject, I will hold down shift, and v-click, v-click, ... onto the rest of the hatches next to her. Lots of Korean pros separate their hatches (DRG, Zenio, ...) into different hotkeys based on the locations (main hatch and macro hatch to 1/4, natural hatch and macro hatch to 2/5 etc ...), then all they do is 44, box the queen, v-click, 55, box the queen, v-click and so on. Some pros (TSL_Revival, Spanishiwa) use the custom camera hotkeys to navigate around, so they do F2, box (or use all queen hotkey), v-click, etc...
The hardcore method, in my opinion, is definitely a more efficient way to inject because it is manageable every time other than worrying about queens going everywhere by spamming the backspace inject, more importantly, it frees up a lot of supply by not needing a ton of queens.
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On March 28 2012 18:21 excellionx wrote:i started zerg using fruitdealer's keybinds and setup, still do today
I am curious now, what is his setup exactly? I started playing after he was the best zerg.. 
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On April 25 2012 04:15 lhr0909 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:51 HansK wrote:
I'm confused, why not the backspace method? If the wandering queen thing is an issue - why not just not click inject on hatches with no queen? It will surely be just as fast as the time it takes to click the queen I think. Even though the wandering queen can be solved by hitting "stop" hotkey or "hold position" hotkey after every backspace spam. The problem with backspace is when you have a lot of hatches but not enough queens (for example, 8 hatches but 4 queens), sometimes you need to spam 2 or 3 times to get the injects because the queens might not be targeting the hatches they are closest to. So to make the method effective, you have to have almost 1 queen per hatch. Here comes the problem. with 1 queen per hatch in the mid-late game, you will for sure have enough larvae, but you don't have the supply for units because queens are 2 supply each. And if you keep your injects consistent, which is almost a must as a zerg player, 4 queens is more than enough. On the other hand, no one is perfect. So you must miss inject some time. Thats when macro hatches comes into play. Put down macro hatches next to the queens so they can double inject, and that solves the not enough larvae problem. So thats why a lot of pros don't backspace inject. They either bind individual queens (IdrA, Destiny), or do a faster method, which is the hardcore style I introduced in the OP. For me, I broke my backspace inject habit about a month or two ago, and started to only use the base camera for moving to the hatches, and all i do next is box the middle of the screen and select units (queen will get prioritized above anything else), then v - click on the hatch, if there is more than one hatch next to that queen and I have excessive energy to double even triple inject, I will hold down shift, and v-click, v-click, ... onto the rest of the hatches next to her. Lots of Korean pros separate their hatches (DRG, Zenio, ...) into different hotkeys based on the locations (main hatch and macro hatch to 1/4, natural hatch and macro hatch to 2/5 etc ...), then all they do is 44, box the queen, v-click, 55, box the queen, v-click and so on. Some pros (TSL_Revival, Spanishiwa) use the custom camera hotkeys to navigate around, so they do F2, box (or use all queen hotkey), v-click, etc... The hardcore method, in my opinion, is definitely a more efficient way to inject because it is manageable every time other than worrying about queens going everywhere by spamming the backspace inject, more importantly, it frees up a lot of supply by not needing a ton of queens.
When you don't have enough queens to match your hatch why not simply just press your backspace key or what ever you have it binded to[for me it's my side mouse button] and only press v and click on the hatch with queens near it. There is no reason queens should ever be running across the map, I don't think?
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I use hardcore because when I have them all hotkeyed to the same hotkey they end up all being in one spot sometimes and its too late when i notice them that I miss a ton of time on my injects
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On April 25 2012 06:04 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:15 lhr0909 wrote:On April 24 2012 17:51 HansK wrote:
I'm confused, why not the backspace method? If the wandering queen thing is an issue - why not just not click inject on hatches with no queen? It will surely be just as fast as the time it takes to click the queen I think. Even though the wandering queen can be solved by hitting "stop" hotkey or "hold position" hotkey after every backspace spam. The problem with backspace is when you have a lot of hatches but not enough queens (for example, 8 hatches but 4 queens), sometimes you need to spam 2 or 3 times to get the injects because the queens might not be targeting the hatches they are closest to. So to make the method effective, you have to have almost 1 queen per hatch. Here comes the problem. with 1 queen per hatch in the mid-late game, you will for sure have enough larvae, but you don't have the supply for units because queens are 2 supply each. And if you keep your injects consistent, which is almost a must as a zerg player, 4 queens is more than enough. On the other hand, no one is perfect. So you must miss inject some time. Thats when macro hatches comes into play. Put down macro hatches next to the queens so they can double inject, and that solves the not enough larvae problem. So thats why a lot of pros don't backspace inject. They either bind individual queens (IdrA, Destiny), or do a faster method, which is the hardcore style I introduced in the OP. For me, I broke my backspace inject habit about a month or two ago, and started to only use the base camera for moving to the hatches, and all i do next is box the middle of the screen and select units (queen will get prioritized above anything else), then v - click on the hatch, if there is more than one hatch next to that queen and I have excessive energy to double even triple inject, I will hold down shift, and v-click, v-click, ... onto the rest of the hatches next to her. Lots of Korean pros separate their hatches (DRG, Zenio, ...) into different hotkeys based on the locations (main hatch and macro hatch to 1/4, natural hatch and macro hatch to 2/5 etc ...), then all they do is 44, box the queen, v-click, 55, box the queen, v-click and so on. Some pros (TSL_Revival, Spanishiwa) use the custom camera hotkeys to navigate around, so they do F2, box (or use all queen hotkey), v-click, etc... The hardcore method, in my opinion, is definitely a more efficient way to inject because it is manageable every time other than worrying about queens going everywhere by spamming the backspace inject, more importantly, it frees up a lot of supply by not needing a ton of queens. When you don't have enough queens to match your hatch why not simply just press your backspace key or what ever you have it binded to[for me it's my side mouse button] and only press v and click on the hatch with queens near it. There is no reason queens should ever be running across the map, I don't think?
Think of it this way. Inject is a kind of muscle memory, you want to do it almost the exact same way without even looking at it.
For what you suggest, you still have to visually see and say hey, there is no queen in this hatch, skip, while IdrA just 55v66v77v and DRG just go to a hatch, box the middle of the screen to select, v, click on the hatch, and repeat. This way, no matter if there is a queen there, you don't have to worry, it is just a spam, it is already muscle memory.
The worst thing it could happen in that case is (1) you selected some larvae, hitting v will make an overlord or (2) you selected some overlord and hitting v will make an overseer. It is not much harm in most cases! There is nothing else to worry about!
If you want to make injects automatic, I suggest you either need to learn to spam your backspace injects very fast, or you should switch to either 55v66v77v or hardcore style or even just use custom camera hotkeys instead of backspace. It is simple just easier to manage.
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I keep all my hatches indidivually hotkeyed on as the morph so I can "tap monitor" their morphing process. After the hatches complete morphing, I add them to the 5 hotkey and hotkey my queens to 3 and 6.
When im not in battle and macroing hard I use the f-keys hop around and inject since using backspace method can lead to wandering queens around the map. During a battle I will use backspace method (base camera set to w, inject e) just to get it done as fast as possible and return to microing.
I use the the f-keys for bases (I have them set from f2-f8. Main f2, Natf3, 3rd f4 or f5, Rally point f5.) Eaier to deal with harass imo.
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Here comes the problem. with 1 queen per hatch in the mid-late game, you will for sure have enough larvae, but you don't have the supply for units because queens are 2 supply each. And if you keep your injects consistent, which is almost a must as a zerg player, 4 queens is more than enough.
Queens really aren't that much supply.... so you have 5 bases, 6 hatches with a macro hatch. That's 6 queens. 12 supply. Not a big deal, considering the reward. Really that's the point when supply becomes an issue, but you should have the income to do a mass spore trick for extra supply, and when you need more broodlords.
Another huge benefit of having those many queens, is right when queen supply becomes an issue and you have 6 queens, you should be around a pure bl/infestor army, and the queens are amazing for transfusing them. If you don't win the battle with bl/infestor/queen, it's okay - you have 7+ hatches now, and you don't need to inject anymore because you have so many hatches (or maybe you can just inject every once in a while).
I've never had an issue with queens taking up supply, and the benefits of moving out with mass queen later on is just so great. It really times out that you are having 5+ queens which are getting to be a bit too much right when you are on mass broodlords and tons of hatches meaning you don't need to inject anymore, and tons of income to trick out more supply.
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/sigh
YET ANOTHER larvae inject thread that successfully manages to ignore probably the most efficient method (injecting using saved camera locations to bounce between locations).
Keybind your queens on one hotkey.
Keybind four camera location hotkeys. This also convenient for general navigation!
My hotkeys are:
F1, F2, F3, F4 for camera locations
'4' for all queens
'e' for inject (4->e is very easy)
To inject do:
4, e, [hold shift], F1 click, F2 click, F3 click, F4 click
Actions required for 4 hatcheries: 11
Hotkeys required for 4 hatcheries: 1
Camera location hotkeys is this stuff:
[image loading]
I set camera location hotkeys so I can navigate between my bases extremely easily, eg if there is a helion drop I can just 'F1' (go to main), grab my drones, and hit F2 (my expo) and right click them on minerals. If there is harassment at my third I just hit 'F3' and I'm there. Furthermore, I can use the camera hotkeys to make injecting extremely easy, as I just:
Select all queens
[hold shift] + inject
f1 click, f2 click, f3 click, f4 click
Very easy, very quick, and 100% reliable at any stage of the game. If I have a macro hatch I will usually put it adjacent to one of my other hatches, so I just throw in an extra click. The only downside is that you must set up the camera locations yourself, but there's loads of time to do this at the start of the game (and you want to use camera hotkeys ANYWAY because they're great).
Easily the 2nd fastest way to do it, all it takes is some getting used to. Backspace method being fastest, but you have queens running everywhere when doing that. Also with backspace yes you can hit hold position but if the queens were already moving to another base chances are they never injected the hatchery they are next too, it all depends on which hatchery your backspace took you to first.
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EPT
