On March 18 2012 00:22 FindMuck wrote: I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units?
If you make pure voids, then your gateway unit count will be too low. If you make phoenix they suck vs high number of roaches. Even if you go stargate you need to keep your 3rd up and usually stargate units just can't keep your 3rd base alive. Then Protoss is stuck on 2 base with stargate units that he can't do much with if Zerg prepared well with extra queens and spores.
Im a zerg player, so you mean if toss opens stargate i should just do the same thing and kill his third over and over?
I go stargate all the time and hold fine vs any sort of pressure from a zerg. Its great baiting them into an all in off 3 base to kill my fast third. When theyre all in fails I usually just roll them 5 minutes later. I would suggest not doing that and just teching super fast. You have to make sure you scout his army though more blink immortal you need infestors, collosus means you have a bit more time. But ya Ive only lost 3 times I can remember with the fast third after stargate build vs zerg. Incredibly strong build.
On March 18 2012 00:22 FindMuck wrote: I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units?
If you make pure voids, then your gateway unit count will be too low. If you make phoenix they suck vs high number of roaches. Even if you go stargate you need to keep your 3rd up and usually stargate units just can't keep your 3rd base alive. Then Protoss is stuck on 2 base with stargate units that he can't do much with if Zerg prepared well with extra queens and spores.
Im a zerg player, so you mean if toss opens stargate i should just do the same thing and kill his third over and over?
I go stargate all the time and hold fine vs any sort of pressure from a zerg. Its great baiting them into an all in off 3 base to kill my fast third. When theyre all in fails I usually just roll them 5 minutes later. I would suggest not doing that and just teching super fast. You have to make sure you scout his army though more blink immortal you need infestors, collosus means you have a bit more time. But ya Ive only lost 3 times I can remember with the fast third after stargate build vs zerg. Incredibly strong build.
naw stephano style is unbeatable and zerg has been op since roach buff, didn't you watch the replay our mid master TC posted?
If the huge roach push is defended with ease, is Zerg in a terrible spot? I would say so because they literally have nothing to defend against the 3 base deathball push that will arrive before broodlords.
If you watch MC play, he will hardly ever lose a third to roaches and he won't miss forcefields, and his stalkers never get surrounded by lings. Maxed 200/200 roach pushes at 12 minutes were used by Nestea and Losira 8 months ago, and they were pretty good. The only difference now is that ladder players have learned to do this too.
On March 18 2012 02:37 Let it Raine wrote: zerg is only in a bad spot if he has to remake a ton of roaches after the first 200/200
if he can just go into infestor brood tech while building drones then it's fine
edit: and yeah, maxed 200/200 pushes have been around since year 1 when tosses were doing gateway expands, usually hit @ 13-14 minutes though, not 12.
Is it really 12 mins though? It looks a lot closer to 13 mins.
Also, people just look at the supply most of the time and don't take into account the roaches that are currently being produced and the roaches that are being rallied. I think it's a lot closer in army supply during the battle then most people think.
Coming from a zerg perspective gateway expands are only threatening when toss is able to deny scouting. It might be that they havent been experimented with enough but in its current state its quite easy to play against.
MCs style from that VoDs looks REALLY fragile tbh. Sooo many sentries, few stalkers, early third looks like death for the typical roach pressure... I think he should loose every game but he still seems to pull ahead
Just watched some newer Stephano replays, he seems to have changed his build a bit now, he gets gas before his first hatch to get speed out quickly. Seems like this helps a lot vs the huge two base gateway timings, as with speed he can be all over the map and will see your force moving out if hes aggressive enough. However this slows down his max roach/ling time to about 13-14 minutes.
On March 18 2012 00:22 FindMuck wrote: I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units?
If you make pure voids, then your gateway unit count will be too low. If you make phoenix they suck vs high number of roaches. Even if you go stargate you need to keep your 3rd up and usually stargate units just can't keep your 3rd base alive. Then Protoss is stuck on 2 base with stargate units that he can't do much with if Zerg prepared well with extra queens and spores.
Im a zerg player, so you mean if toss opens stargate i should just do the same thing and kill his third over and over?
I go stargate all the time and hold fine vs any sort of pressure from a zerg. Its great baiting them into an all in off 3 base to kill my fast third. When theyre all in fails I usually just roll them 5 minutes later. I would suggest not doing that and just teching super fast. You have to make sure you scout his army though more blink immortal you need infestors, collosus means you have a bit more time. But ya Ive only lost 3 times I can remember with the fast third after stargate build vs zerg. Incredibly strong build.
On March 18 2012 00:22 FindMuck wrote: I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units?
If you make pure voids, then your gateway unit count will be too low. If you make phoenix they suck vs high number of roaches. Even if you go stargate you need to keep your 3rd up and usually stargate units just can't keep your 3rd base alive. Then Protoss is stuck on 2 base with stargate units that he can't do much with if Zerg prepared well with extra queens and spores.
Im a zerg player, so you mean if toss opens stargate i should just do the same thing and kill his third over and over?
I go stargate all the time and hold fine vs any sort of pressure from a zerg. Its great baiting them into an all in off 3 base to kill my fast third. When theyre all in fails I usually just roll them 5 minutes later. I would suggest not doing that and just teching super fast. You have to make sure you scout his army though more blink immortal you need infestors, collosus means you have a bit more time. But ya Ive only lost 3 times I can remember with the fast third after stargate build vs zerg. Incredibly strong build.
naw stephano style is unbeatable and zerg has been op since roach buff, didn't you watch the replay our mid master TC posted?
Good, constructive post. You've been a pleasure in this thread.
On March 18 2012 02:55 XXXSmOke wrote: Just watched some newer Stephano replays, he seems to have changed his build a bit now, he gets gas before his first hatch to get speed out quickly. Seems like this helps a lot vs the huge two base gateway timings, as with speed he can be all over the map and will see your force moving out if hes aggressive enough. However this slows down his max roach/ling time to about 13-14 minutes.
FWIW, I think the idea behind fast metabolic boost is to deny scouting and make the Protoss worry about a Zerg all-in rather than for defending the Protoss's 2-base timings. Slower metabolic boost is perfectly fine (better really) for defending P's 2-base timings, and it gives Z a much stronger economy. But getting fast gas makes P play cautiously sacrificing zealots to scout, getting extra cannons and generally doing more conservative builds. I doubt Stephano does it often, but fast gas can be worth doing on maps where P walls to his nexus rather than walling off a choke.
you should notice that this roaches being op came along with the metagame change that all P started to FE. someone in a post stated that nony thinks FE is bad and i agree with it. it makes the game 2P bases vs 3Zbases by default, and that makes the zerg to have enough larva to spam the roach crap out of the P. Gets even worse if P makes a mistake and looses his first army, whatever it is (pretty much like in PvT back then, when if P lost his fist army cost inefficently, then was super unlikely to win the game).
I FE only at superbig maps, on all other maps i do 1 zealot 2 stalker agression into expand that you can throw when army is halfway and then add forge gate and whatever to finish the wall (pop third pylon below ramp) cannon as soon as forge completes.
it works super good for me, you can expand safely, force zerg to spend larva not on drones, in addition you will actually do damage as in kill few drones, maybe an ovie or queen just cause the timing is so that almost all zergs dont expect it and are not prepeared (this push was common some long time ago and i still have da9s words in my mind 'this push can throw so many zerg players off).
then finally when the zerg have dealt with your push (if you didnt suck) by the time any lings get to your base your nexus will be complete or almost complete and you will be transferring probes ( just remember 2 games from recent past that just when lings got there i could hug cannon with probes right when they were on the way)
you can follow up with whatever, i usually just go blind +1zealot,immo,phoenix and it just works regardless of what Z gets. Impotant note: order on gas: warpgate stalker stalker sentry (gets energy meantime) +1wep asap as forge is done then units and robo, also sometimes i get hallucination after +1 to scout for lair/roach. Order on gateway: zealot stalker stalker sentry zealot warpgatedone - you need to keep gateway busy otherwise when you lose your push and he counters you are naked. but you should for sure get robo blindly anyway soonish and make that 3 immortals. after 1st immortal i throw stargate and cronoboost 3 phoenix. push out with 3 immos and 3 ph + gateway crap.
will be no replays cos my pc broke just yesterday but this way of exanding above works much better than just ffe
vulnerabilities - after your push when zergs reaction is: allin bane and you dont see it you microed too good and macroed too bad and your wall or cannon is not finished when he counters you microed too bad and he just killed you that quick that your wall and cannon is not finished you didnt build that sentry and zealot and you have no units when he counters
other than that about PvZ: infestors seem kinda broke to me if used properly, i got wtfpwnt once and i didnt even know why and how and the other is P air sucks in general, remove carriers go
no tldrs
edit: soz for this english but im lazy, and since my pc broke in on a 15 years old lap that lags and is missing like 4 keys in the keyboard
On March 18 2012 03:04 Friend23 wrote: you should notice that this roaches being op came along with the metagame change that all P started to FE. someone in a post stated that nony thinks FE is bad and i agree with it. it makes the game 2P bases vs 3Zbases by default, and that makes the zerg to have enough larva to spam the roach crap out of the P.
. . .
other than that about PvZ: infestors seem kinda broke to me if used properly, i got wtfpwnt once and i didnt even know why and how
It's 2-base P vs 3-base Z when you gateway expand as well--the only difference is that you gain some sentry energy, but in return, you spot Z a 10 worker lead. It's a bad trade, and that's why you never see high level P's gateway expanding except when the map forces it.
With all due respect to Nony, he just hasn't played all that much SC2. He has great talent and he could be awesome if he fully committed himself to the game, but there's a reason that he doesn't often play in team leagues for Liquid. I'm a Nony fan and I think he has the control and macro to be excellent, but for now, he's a good but not great NA Protoss player with a 40% win rate in TLPD.
Also, infestors own gateway expand because gateway expand relies on a pool of sentries, and infestors rock sentries.
So ,i've been doing 3gate expo at the moment on some maps and seems to work,but still its not good vs a competent zerg that still goes 3 hatcheries.And pumps just enough lings to defend the sentry/zealot agression after i placed my nexus.
Anyway i think one of the things that broke the PvZ is the 3->4 rouch range.After Stephano found that sexy build,i think the PvZ win ratio will plummet down really fast.
i dont think this specifically is about worker lead (which also depends on how much dmg you did with your push) but amount of larva and gas that you have access to - ffe starts with 2v3 bases followed fairly quick 4th from the zerg who on the other side is just preventing P from getting thid. stephanos words: you dont let the P get a third. in fact a game that oppened with ffe 2v3 bases is about if P gets or does not get the third base.
now this happens because: doing ffe allows Z to get third. and getting third makes the zerg to have access to increased amount of larva (and gas - you might have 50 drones on 2 bases and 50 drones on 3 bases and on 3 bases you will be much ahead just cos of the gas, not cos of the drones)
and should notice that roaches stats didnt change, what changed is the amount of larva that Z gets when the game starts ffe 2v3, which in fact allows the zerg to shit them at a rate that P just cant kill them: think of it as of roaches HP stream being higher than Protoss overall DPS.
before the metagame (before ffe 2v3, means when game was opening 1v2) change it was fine cos larva was the limiting factor, now with zerg having quick 3rd the factor of insufficent amount of larva is removed and its just like you said: rally to P base and spam SR
and thats the reason why ffe is not so good, in my very personal opinion
another thing that i thought of is: cos currently it is that you need sentries to survive, (which is also shit, shit game design), but with sentries you are as good as high your sentries energy pool is, once youre out of energy youre done, dead
now what if we threw second robo and spammed immortals, what if instead of having 3 immortals and 7 sentries we had like 7 immortals and 3 sentries + crapload of +1 or +2 zealots and just skip stalkers overall?
would that work or too vulnerable to muta switch (but thats not the case anyway, case is to survive the roach stream, i guess)
On March 18 2012 03:04 Friend23 wrote: you should notice that this roaches being op came along with the metagame change that all P started to FE. someone in a post stated that nony thinks FE is bad and i agree with it. it makes the game 2P bases vs 3Zbases by default, and that makes the zerg to have enough larva to spam the roach crap out of the P.
. . .
other than that about PvZ: infestors seem kinda broke to me if used properly, i got wtfpwnt once and i didnt even know why and how
It's 2-base P vs 3-base Z when you gateway expand as well--the only difference is that you gain some sentry energy, but in return, you spot Z a 10 worker lead. It's a bad trade, and that's why you never see high level P's gateway expanding except when the map forces it.
With all due respect to Nony, he just hasn't played all that much SC2. He has great talent and he could be awesome if he fully committed himself to the game, but there's a reason that he doesn't often play in team leagues for Liquid. I'm a Nony fan and I think he has the control and macro to be excellent, but for now, he's a good but not great NA Protoss player with a 40% win rate in TLPD.
Also, infestors own gateway expand because gateway expand relies on a pool of sentries, and infestors rock sentries.
Well, the difference is, when you spot the forge as a zerg, you can immediately get your third and know that drone spammage can't possibly be punished, so you just go into auto-drone mode. If you see no forge, you have to work with the fact that the toss can very well punish you and possibly even 1base allin you, so you can't take your third early and you can't drone like crazy. It forces the zerg to play a lot more passively.
Sure, when the toss gets his nat, the zerg can get their third, but a toss can still do a push after taking their nat which forced zerg to build units etc... standard gateways into expansion simply forces the zerg to play a very different style which isn't as strong since what makes this stephano roach style so strong is that pure eco from zerg for such a long time makes a HUGE deal.
i dont think this specifically is about worker lead (which also depends on how much dmg you did with your push) but amount of larva and gas that you have access to - ffe starts with 2v3 bases followed fairly quick 4th from the zerg who on the other side is just preventing P from getting thid. stephanos words: you dont let the P get a third. in fact a game that oppened with ffe 2v3 bases is about if P gets or does not get the third base.
now this happens because: doing ffe allows Z to get third. and getting third makes the zerg to have access to increased amount of larva (and gas - you might have 50 drones on 2 bases and 50 drones on 3 bases and on 3 bases you will be much ahead just cos of the gas, not cos of the drones)
and should notice that roaches stats didnt change, what changed is the amount of larva that Z gets when the game starts ffe 2v3, which in fact allows the zerg to shit them at a rate that P just cant kill them: think of it as of roaches HP stream being higher than Protoss overall DPS.
before the metagame (before ffe 2v3, means when game was opening 1v2) change it was fine cos larva was the limiting factor, now with zerg having quick 3rd the factor of insufficent amount of larva is removed and its just like you said: rally to P base and spam SR
and thats the reason why ffe is not so good, in my very personal opinion
another thing that i thought of is: cos currently it is that you need sentries to survive, (which is also shit, shit game design), but with sentries you are as good as high your sentries energy pool is, once youre out of energy youre done, dead
now what if we threw second robo and spammed immortals, what if instead of having 3 immortals and 7 sentries we had like 7 immortals and 3 sentries + crapload of +1 or +2 zealots and just skip stalkers overall?
would that work or too vulnerable to muta switch (but thats not the case anyway, case is to survive the roach stream, i guess)
I have tried FFE into 3 gate 2 robo and a fairly fast third base, but you really do get crucified by a muta switch. Even if you scout it you will be a long way from storm.
3gate expo put you too behind 1 gate expo without sentrys is a auto lose against speedling opener. The problem with gate expo is always the same , you are doing the fucking jackass for the map "sharking" putting in risk intensive gas army(tons of sentrys), while the zerg can just ambush with speedlings and trade minerals for gas.
Its the same, good zergs take fast 3rd against gate expo like a boss and u cant do shit, so you are in same trouble with lesser eco. I think that u should check it some games before FFE became so popular and you can see the truth.
for example MC vs Idra dreamhack invitational 2011 Idra takes 3rd at 6:00 mark, Mc has not expo even.
i dont know why people call this the "stephano style" since he didnt innovate 3 hatch into roach ling aggression. stephano style is rather mass spine crawler around the time you get your infestors to be super safe against everything and then transition into mass broodlord/corrupter/infestor with heavy upgrades.
furthermore i dont understand why so many people seem to be clueless in pvz when korean protoss players already have shown what you need to do. ffe into some light pressure(stargate/+1 zealot/+1 zealot void ray/etc.) while transitioning into blink stalker/sentry/immortal to defend the third base.
also, 200 supply at the 12 minute mark simply isnt true. this is only possible when protoss does absolutely nothing to prevent the zerg from droning, what should never happen. apart from latelategame i feel like the matchup is completely fine, otherwise it wouldnt be my best matchup.
I've been playing with it recently and it seems solid. You get your nexus around the same time as a forge first FFE and you have a cannon and 3 zealots up before ling speed completes which seems to be enough to hold mass speedlings with proper simcity. The build also does not require any sentries either unless they go for a baneling bust which you should be able to sniff out from your early map control w/ zealots.
EPT
1 gate expo without sentrys is a auto lose against speedling opener. The problem with gate expo is always the same , you are doing the fucking jackass for the map "sharking" putting in risk intensive gas army(tons of sentrys), while the zerg can just ambush with speedlings and trade minerals for gas. 
