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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
So I have nothing particularly brilliant to add to a thread full of blue posters, so I will give this idea: 2gate zealots.
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/7-mlg-providence-nat-l-championships
(If the link doesn't work, its the game of DRG v Kiwikaki at MLG Providence)
Theres no reason why you can't 2gate into an expansion and do pretty significant damage;In the linked game, Kiwi takes his expansion prior to the 2gate, but I think if you 2gate before nexus, it may be particularly effective. The other part of this is the +1 melee thats way faster than normal.
DRG just outclasses Kiwi, but I think if you are trying to force the zerg away from a specific timing, this may be the way. No reason why you shouldn't proxy necessarily, but I wouldn't myself.
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i dont think you can do anything other than FFE and have a safe expansion(which is required) and still be economically ahead.. thats how I feel anyway..I'm not creative enough to find a build that does damage and is safe
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On March 17 2012 11:30 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 11:12 AzureD wrote:
I do not see how you can take a third if all you have is a couple of sentries and 2-4 Immortals. 11-12 minutes the Zerg will have 200 supply army which is around 50 Roaches. The Zerg has so much that he can easily attack at 2 places at once and the Protoss army is just too low supply to stop it. If the Protoss splits their army in two I feel it becomes much weaker and can not hold a third.
If you use Voidrays you might badly injure the Zerg army but still risk losing the third anyway. Sentry + Voidray might be worth using though and just make it too costly to take down the third. This replay that I JUST played on ladder can show you how. http://drop.sc/135213I got severely behind after the openings as I was talking with some friends during the game, and the first engagement happened as my 3rd JUST finished. The game at that point? Zerg at 67 drones, me at about 58. Me at 2-0 upgrades vs. 0-0 of zerg, 1-0 finishing up shortly. He did a variation, a roach + ling off 3 base, but still a super strong pressure. This isn't the guide for the EXACT build of stephano, but this is a replay showing how you can survive against massive armies. I went DT's and warp prisms and both did ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE. My +1 zealots did nothing either. Now for the kicker. Army supplies? He was at 157 vs. my 89 supply. Looking at my workers, you'd think I'm crazy. No, resources wise, it was 1450 / 1000 for me vs. 4375 / 1100 for him. About 3 times as large, and I still HOLD IT off while getting more probes off of BLINK STALKERS AND SENTRIES ALONE. You talk about your FF's being subpar and that didn't affect the game THAT much... I beg to differ.
Ok watched the game and he did not do what I was talking about. Also that game was kinda odd as everything he did was quite slow. He could have attacked at two points and his queen inject was really really bad with one queen at 100 another at 70 and another one at around 40 while floating a ton of minerals. Not to mention attacking you just before his +1 finished and just bashing his head into forcefields where he could have retreated without penalty. I mean his army should have been way way bigger.
I really can not take anything from that game because of too many errors from both sides.
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On March 17 2012 11:30 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 11:12 AzureD wrote:
I do not see how you can take a third if all you have is a couple of sentries and 2-4 Immortals. 11-12 minutes the Zerg will have 200 supply army which is around 50 Roaches. The Zerg has so much that he can easily attack at 2 places at once and the Protoss army is just too low supply to stop it. If the Protoss splits their army in two I feel it becomes much weaker and can not hold a third.
If you use Voidrays you might badly injure the Zerg army but still risk losing the third anyway. Sentry + Voidray might be worth using though and just make it too costly to take down the third. This replay that I JUST played on ladder can show you how. http://drop.sc/135213I got severely behind after the openings as I was talking with some friends during the game, and the first engagement happened as my 3rd JUST finished. The game at that point? Zerg at 67 drones, me at about 58. Me at 2-0 upgrades vs. 0-0 of zerg, 1-0 finishing up shortly. He did a variation, a roach + ling off 3 base, but still a super strong pressure. This isn't the guide for the EXACT build of stephano, but this is a replay showing how you can survive against massive armies. I went DT's and warp prisms and both did ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE. My +1 zealots did nothing either. Now for the kicker. Army supplies? He was at 157 vs. my 89 supply. Looking at my workers, you'd think I'm crazy. No, resources wise, it was 1450 / 1000 for me vs. 4375 / 1100 for him. About 3 times as large, and I still HOLD IT off while getting more probes off of BLINK STALKERS AND SENTRIES ALONE. You talk about your FF's being subpar and that didn't affect the game THAT much... I beg to differ.
Good forcefields, but (1) his supply was about 50 lower than it could have been, and (2) he would have won had he split his army and baited forcefields on both sides. Or gotten burrow move. Or just fired on the cannons when his roaches were trapped out of range of your stalkers.
To be fair, you were much further behind than you would have been if not for the ling harass, so you shouldn't have been outnumbered so badly. But a forcefield defense can be overcome.
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I saw today MC using something pretty similar to this fast 3rd style.
He went for a 9 min 3rd in 2 straight PvZs. 4 gate +1 timings into twilight, faking presure in both games. 2 rounds of sentrys both times. 4 extra gates after the 3rd. Fast blink, fast +2, and +3 when is ready.
Still, one game he played totally blind and went collosi. The other he went for hallucination before robo.
In both he make 2 obs before immorthals.
And in both games he make his way into victory by sick micro (plus his usual gosu macro), while the z just move stop his roaches.
Here is the VOD:
http://www.own3d.tv/MC#/watch/522344
The games start at 38:40.
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kcdc it sounds like you're learning how to play the game completely wrong. You shouldn't throw everything out the window because something proves difficult.
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On March 17 2012 12:15 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 11:30 SaroVati wrote:On March 17 2012 11:12 AzureD wrote:
I do not see how you can take a third if all you have is a couple of sentries and 2-4 Immortals. 11-12 minutes the Zerg will have 200 supply army which is around 50 Roaches. The Zerg has so much that he can easily attack at 2 places at once and the Protoss army is just too low supply to stop it. If the Protoss splits their army in two I feel it becomes much weaker and can not hold a third.
If you use Voidrays you might badly injure the Zerg army but still risk losing the third anyway. Sentry + Voidray might be worth using though and just make it too costly to take down the third. This replay that I JUST played on ladder can show you how. http://drop.sc/135213I got severely behind after the openings as I was talking with some friends during the game, and the first engagement happened as my 3rd JUST finished. The game at that point? Zerg at 67 drones, me at about 58. Me at 2-0 upgrades vs. 0-0 of zerg, 1-0 finishing up shortly. He did a variation, a roach + ling off 3 base, but still a super strong pressure. This isn't the guide for the EXACT build of stephano, but this is a replay showing how you can survive against massive armies. I went DT's and warp prisms and both did ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE. My +1 zealots did nothing either. Now for the kicker. Army supplies? He was at 157 vs. my 89 supply. Looking at my workers, you'd think I'm crazy. No, resources wise, it was 1450 / 1000 for me vs. 4375 / 1100 for him. About 3 times as large, and I still HOLD IT off while getting more probes off of BLINK STALKERS AND SENTRIES ALONE. You talk about your FF's being subpar and that didn't affect the game THAT much... I beg to differ. Good forcefields, but (1) his supply was about 50 lower than it could have been, and (2) he would have won had he split his army and baited forcefields on both sides. Or gotten burrow move. Or just fired on the cannons when his roaches were trapped out of range of your stalkers. To be fair, you were much further behind than you would have been if not for the ling harass, so you shouldn't have been outnumbered so badly. But a forcefield defense can be overcome.
I understand it doesn't represent your situation, but the fact that his supply was 50 lower doesn't change the fact that our army DIFFERENCE is the same with both our situations.... and the fact that I had like 20 supply worth of units lol. I agree he could've executed better, but that just means as a protoss you have to execute EVEN better. I watched that replay, and wasted about 4-5 forcefields due to not fully utilizing the 15 seconds, and overlapping some. If the zerg can get that much of a better engage, you can get better forcefields and sim city. It's all about just playing whatever strat you are doing, whether it's with immortals, or just straight stalker sentry better.
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On March 17 2012 12:37 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 12:15 kcdc wrote:On March 17 2012 11:30 SaroVati wrote:On March 17 2012 11:12 AzureD wrote:
I do not see how you can take a third if all you have is a couple of sentries and 2-4 Immortals. 11-12 minutes the Zerg will have 200 supply army which is around 50 Roaches. The Zerg has so much that he can easily attack at 2 places at once and the Protoss army is just too low supply to stop it. If the Protoss splits their army in two I feel it becomes much weaker and can not hold a third.
If you use Voidrays you might badly injure the Zerg army but still risk losing the third anyway. Sentry + Voidray might be worth using though and just make it too costly to take down the third. This replay that I JUST played on ladder can show you how. http://drop.sc/135213I got severely behind after the openings as I was talking with some friends during the game, and the first engagement happened as my 3rd JUST finished. The game at that point? Zerg at 67 drones, me at about 58. Me at 2-0 upgrades vs. 0-0 of zerg, 1-0 finishing up shortly. He did a variation, a roach + ling off 3 base, but still a super strong pressure. This isn't the guide for the EXACT build of stephano, but this is a replay showing how you can survive against massive armies. I went DT's and warp prisms and both did ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE. My +1 zealots did nothing either. Now for the kicker. Army supplies? He was at 157 vs. my 89 supply. Looking at my workers, you'd think I'm crazy. No, resources wise, it was 1450 / 1000 for me vs. 4375 / 1100 for him. About 3 times as large, and I still HOLD IT off while getting more probes off of BLINK STALKERS AND SENTRIES ALONE. You talk about your FF's being subpar and that didn't affect the game THAT much... I beg to differ. Good forcefields, but (1) his supply was about 50 lower than it could have been, and (2) he would have won had he split his army and baited forcefields on both sides. Or gotten burrow move. Or just fired on the cannons when his roaches were trapped out of range of your stalkers. To be fair, you were much further behind than you would have been if not for the ling harass, so you shouldn't have been outnumbered so badly. But a forcefield defense can be overcome. I understand it doesn't represent your situation, but the fact that his supply was 50 lower doesn't change the fact that our army DIFFERENCE is the same with both our situations.... and the fact that I had like 20 supply worth of units lol. I agree he could've executed better, but that just means as a protoss you have to execute EVEN better. I watched that replay, and wasted about 4-5 forcefields due to not fully utilizing the 15 seconds, and overlapping some. If the zerg can get that much of a better engage, you can get better forcefields and sim city. It's all about just playing whatever strat you are doing, whether it's with immortals, or just straight stalker sentry better.
I understand what you're getting at, and yes, great forcefields can sometimes win you a game that you should have lost, but in that particular game, toxsik just got cocky knowing his ling harass put him way ahead and he didn't bother trying to control his units. He saw you had 20 supply of army and bullrushed into a bunch of cannons and forcefields. For all intents and purposes, he went afk for the next 2 minutes. Kudos to you for outplaying him and coming up with a clutch win, but if both of you had executed well, his army wins every time.
Anyway, we're getting off topic. I think we can agree that the build order you went for is not the answer to Stephano style 3 base mass roach pressure. I think the answer is just going to wind up being a fast third to make headway in the timing before the 12 minute timing with plenty of well-placed forcefields to come out of the first wave in good enough shape to hold the remax.
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Why is early pressure being continually discounted?
I may not know the game as well as you all, but I do know the basic theme of get ahead and then stay ahead. How does this not apply here? Kill some drones, force some early units, retreat (shark mode, dear iNcontroL), and then a) his timing is later and b) you can have map control and control the tempo of the game.
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On March 17 2012 15:12 Hossinaut wrote:
Why is early pressure being continually discounted?
I may not know the game as well as you all, but I do know the basic theme of get ahead and then stay ahead. How does this not apply here? Kill some drones, force some early units, retreat (shark mode, dear iNcontroL), and then a) his timing is later and b) you can have map control and control the tempo of the game.
How do you retreat? Your units are slower than his and you wont have enough sentry energy for forcefield walls (at the <8 minute mark). Any ground units you have on the map between the 5 and 8 minute mark are sacrificial.
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I am a high masters toss. i don't think there is an issue with ffe. my pvz goes like ffe, 4 gas, SG, harrass and council, stalkers, robo, templar, 3rd base, storm finishes in time to hold the third with a bunch of stalkers, void ray phoenix, 4-5 sentry, 1 -2 immortal, 2-3 templar and +2 weps and cannons. threaten the center, drop lots of cannons, harrass alot(get a warp prism and chargelots), push b4 broodlords or wait for mothership.
ps: oversaturate ure first 2 bases for a big transfer if ure under pressure and cant expand yet
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Italy12247 Posts
On March 17 2012 19:46 udai wrote:
I am a high masters toss. i don't think there is an issue with ffe. my pvz goes like ffe, 4 gas, SG, harrass and council, stalkers, robo, templar, 3rd base, storm finishes in time to hold the third with a bunch of stalkers, void ray phoenix, 4-5 sentry, 1 -2 immortal, 2-3 templar and +2 weps and cannons. threaten the center, drop lots of cannons, harrass alot(get a warp prism and chargelots), push b4 broodlords or wait for mothership.
ps: oversaturate ure first 2 bases for a big transfer if ure under pressure and cant expand yet
Really curious, do you have any replays if you holding a third vs a mass roach timing like stephano does?
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On March 17 2012 18:42 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 15:12 Hossinaut wrote:
Why is early pressure being continually discounted?
I may not know the game as well as you all, but I do know the basic theme of get ahead and then stay ahead. How does this not apply here? Kill some drones, force some early units, retreat (shark mode, dear iNcontroL), and then a) his timing is later and b) you can have map control and control the tempo of the game. How do you retreat? Your units are slower than his and you wont have enough sentry energy for forcefield walls (at the <8 minute mark). Any ground units you have on the map between the 5 and 8 minute mark are sacrificial.
What about a kiwikaki-style FFE into 2gate or just a 2gate into expansion?
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I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units?
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On March 18 2012 00:22 FindMuck wrote:
I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units?
If you make pure voids, then your gateway unit count will be too low. If you make phoenix they suck vs high number of roaches. Even if you go stargate you need to keep your 3rd up and usually stargate units just can't keep your 3rd base alive. Then Protoss is stuck on 2 base with stargate units that he can't do much with if Zerg prepared well with extra queens and spores.
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For the people who want alternatives to standard FFE:
Oz sometimes does a version of FFE where he gets 2 gates before gas and does some zealot pressure (I believe at MLG a few times if you want replays)
and Titan (again!) does a goddamned weird fast expand build which seems like it should simply die to certain Zerg cheeses but I guess he makes it work. If anyone wants to try and figure it out here are all the Titan replays I can find in the current patch:
http://drop.sc/packs/677
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On March 18 2012 00:26 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 00:22 FindMuck wrote:
I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units? If you make pure voids, then your gateway unit count will be too low. If you make phoenix they suck vs high number of roaches. Even if you go stargate you need to keep your 3rd up and usually stargate units just can't keep your 3rd base alive. Then Protoss is stuck on 2 base with stargate units that he can't do much with if Zerg prepared well with extra queens and spores.
Im a zerg player, so you mean if toss opens stargate i should just do the same thing and kill his third over and over?
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Personally, I don't understand why an FFE alternative couldn't possibly be better than an FFE. By limiting themselves to this build, in many circumstances, they limit their available options and provide for more predictable games. Which can then be exploited.
I guess what I am trying to say is what if Protoss stopped saying "FFE or die trying" and instead looked and said "I'll try to figure this out from my opening"- its the opening that determines the effectiveness of entering the mid-late game.
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On March 18 2012 00:34 Hossinaut wrote:
Personally, I don't understand why an FFE alternative couldn't possibly be better than an FFE. By limiting themselves to this build, in many circumstances, they limit their available options and provide for more predictable games. Which can then be exploited.
I guess what I am trying to say is what if Protoss stopped saying "FFE or die trying" and instead looked and said "I'll try to figure this out from my opening"- its the opening that determines the effectiveness of entering the mid-late game.
The reason why toss always goes ffe now as opposed to gateway expand because 3 gate sentry expand is god awful (very slow economically, and cant put much pressure), 2 gate is ok but still not that very economical and 1 gate still isnt as greedy as ffe and could die to heavy unscouted aggression from the Z. So there's no reason not to FFE.
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On March 18 2012 00:34 Hossinaut wrote:
Personally, I don't understand why an FFE alternative couldn't possibly be better than an FFE. By limiting themselves to this build, in many circumstances, they limit their available options and provide for more predictable games. Which can then be exploited.
I guess what I am trying to say is what if Protoss stopped saying "FFE or die trying" and instead looked and said "I'll try to figure this out from my opening"- its the opening that determines the effectiveness of entering the mid-late game.
If you open with a gateway at a standard time, zerg will scout it. Zerg will then make an extractor and mine 100 gas then get metabolic boost. Zerg will keep vision of the protoss expansion and if a nexus goes down before 5:00 zerg will make zerglings and the protoss player is forced to cancel the nexus. If the protoss player goes up to 3 gateways and starts the nexus at 5:50 then zerg is not only a long way ahead economically but protoss is forced to spend 600+ gas on sentries to keep the nexus alive.
If a protoss goes for an early (11) gate and chronos out zealots then zerg will scout it (good zerg players know all the openings), kill the zealots and prevent protoss from starting a nexus before 6:30 (maybe much later).
At the end of the day, apart from a wall-off + cannon or 6 sentries, what can stop zerglings from attacking a protoss expansion? For what it is worth I have been experimenting with alternate pvz openings for a week or so now. I have learned a lot of what does not work but not so much of what does work.
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EPT
