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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 18 2012 04:37 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
i dont know why people call this the "stephano style" since he didnt innovate 3 hatch into roach ling aggression. stephano style is rather mass spine crawler around the time you get your infestors to be super safe against everything and then transition into mass broodlord/corrupter/infestor with heavy upgrades.
furthermore i dont understand why so many people seem to be clueless in pvz when korean protoss players already have shown what you need to do. ffe into some light pressure(stargate/+1 zealot/+1 zealot void ray/etc.) while transitioning into blink stalker/sentry/immortal to defend the third base.
also, 200 supply at the 12 minute mark simply isnt true. this is only possible when protoss does absolutely nothing to prevent the zerg from droning, what should never happen.
apart from latelategame i feel like the matchup is completely fine, otherwise it wouldnt be my best matchup.
If the Protoss does nothing Zerg hits 200 supply in about 10 minutes. Sometimes Stephano hits 200 supply in 11 minutes against pros who pressure. Stephano is that fast.
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On March 18 2012 05:02 Skyro wrote:Everybody who is saying gate expands put you too far behind in eco and can't be aggressive, etc. etc. have they tried this build? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275I've been playing with it recently and it seems solid. You get your nexus around the same time as a forge first FFE and you have a cannon and 3 zealots up before ling speed completes which seems to be enough to hold mass speedlings with proper simcity. The build also does not require any sentries either unless they go for a baneling bust which you should be able to sniff out from your early map control w/ zealots.
What do you do if Z makes 12 early lings? All you have is a zealot with a core, a pylon and a nexus on the low ground, and your forge isn't done. Seems like you're just counting on not being scouted.
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On March 18 2012 05:26 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 05:02 Skyro wrote:Everybody who is saying gate expands put you too far behind in eco and can't be aggressive, etc. etc. have they tried this build? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275I've been playing with it recently and it seems solid. You get your nexus around the same time as a forge first FFE and you have a cannon and 3 zealots up before ling speed completes which seems to be enough to hold mass speedlings with proper simcity. The build also does not require any sentries either unless they go for a baneling bust which you should be able to sniff out from your early map control w/ zealots. What do you do if Z makes 12 early lings? All you have is a zealot with a core, a pylon and a nexus on the low ground, and your forge isn't done. Seems like you're just counting on not being scouted.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 12 early lings. From a 14 pool opening that 12 slow lings hit your base ~5m depending on rush distance. I time my probe scout (timing depends on the number of spawns) so that depending on what I scout I go forge or core after nexus. Forge after nexus gets up a cannon w/ 2 zealots by 5 mins. You can also cut a probe or 2 to get an even earlier forge if it proves you can't hold but I suspect you can.
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On March 18 2012 05:40 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 05:26 kcdc wrote:On March 18 2012 05:02 Skyro wrote:Everybody who is saying gate expands put you too far behind in eco and can't be aggressive, etc. etc. have they tried this build? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275I've been playing with it recently and it seems solid. You get your nexus around the same time as a forge first FFE and you have a cannon and 3 zealots up before ling speed completes which seems to be enough to hold mass speedlings with proper simcity. The build also does not require any sentries either unless they go for a baneling bust which you should be able to sniff out from your early map control w/ zealots. What do you do if Z makes 12 early lings? All you have is a zealot with a core, a pylon and a nexus on the low ground, and your forge isn't done. Seems like you're just counting on not being scouted. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 12 early lings. From a 14 pool opening that 12 slow lings hit your base ~5m depending on rush distance. I time my probe scout (timing depends on the number of spawns) so that depending on what I scout I go forge or core after nexus. Forge after nexus gets up a cannon w/ 2 zealots by 5 mins. You can also cut a probe or 2 to get an even earlier forge if it proves you can't hold but I suspect you can.
I'd have to watch the replays, but the idea that you can get a gateway, a nexus, 2 zealots and a cannon before lings off of a 14 pool reach your base sounds.....not true. If I FFE, I can get a forge, a nexus and a second pylon before starting my cannon, and I'll just barely have the cannon finish before 6 lings off of a 14 pool hit my base. There's no way you can get zealots, gas, a core and a forge and make it work. I'm skeptical about whether a simple no-gas gate, zealot, nexus, forge build would be 100% safe, but the build that he has hitting a 7:10 timing almost certainly isn't safe. And, of course, if you delay the gas and core, then you can't hit the 7:10 timing and you might as well do the normal +1 zealot timing off of FFE.
More to the point, the strength of the build is that you can hit a +1 zealot timing at 7:10. You can hit a +1 zealot timing at 7:30 off of a FFE. 20 seconds earlier is cool, but Z is gonna see what you're doing, so it's not going to do much more damage than the normal timing unless Z responds poorly. Is a worse economy off of a less safe opening worth it?
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Just for the record, I am trying to stimulate conversation, being a zerg player myself.
On March 18 2012 02:01 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 00:34 Hossinaut wrote:
Personally, I don't understand why an FFE alternative couldn't possibly be better than an FFE. By limiting themselves to this build, in many circumstances, they limit their available options and provide for more predictable games. Which can then be exploited.
I guess what I am trying to say is what if Protoss stopped saying "FFE or die trying" and instead looked and said "I'll try to figure this out from my opening"- its the opening that determines the effectiveness of entering the mid-late game. The reason why toss always goes ffe now as opposed to gateway expand because 3 gate sentry expand is god awful (very slow economically, and cant put much pressure), 2 gate is ok but still not that very economical and 1 gate still isnt as greedy as ffe and could die to heavy unscouted aggression from the Z. So there's no reason not to FFE.
On March 18 2012 02:08 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 00:34 Hossinaut wrote:
Personally, I don't understand why an FFE alternative couldn't possibly be better than an FFE. By limiting themselves to this build, in many circumstances, they limit their available options and provide for more predictable games. Which can then be exploited.
I guess what I am trying to say is what if Protoss stopped saying "FFE or die trying" and instead looked and said "I'll try to figure this out from my opening"- its the opening that determines the effectiveness of entering the mid-late game. If you open with a gateway at a standard time, zerg will scout it. Zerg will then make an extractor and mine 100 gas then get metabolic boost. Zerg will keep vision of the protoss expansion and if a nexus goes down before 5:00 zerg will make zerglings and the protoss player is forced to cancel the nexus. If the protoss player goes up to 3 gateways and starts the nexus at 5:50 then zerg is not only a long way ahead economically but protoss is forced to spend 600+ gas on sentries to keep the nexus alive. If a protoss goes for an early (11) gate and chronos out zealots then zerg will scout it (good zerg players know all the openings), kill the zealots and prevent protoss from starting a nexus before 6:30 (maybe much later). At the end of the day, apart from a wall-off + cannon or 6 sentries, what can stop zerglings from attacking a protoss expansion? For what it is worth I have been experimenting with alternate pvz openings for a week or so now. I have learned a lot of what does not work but not so much of what does work.
What if you do Plexa's 6gate mothership?
What about getting 8 gates then going fast third? (HuK v Ret WR3 MLG Winter Arena G1)
I don't think he did it as best as it could have been, and maybe going 6 gate expand +2 gateways and teching behind it and playing a macro game instead of a micro one, more harassment, etc would be better.
EDIT: I am not trying to say that a gateway expand is better or whatever, I am just, as I say above, trying to provide an alternative insight and one that may provide for a lot of improvement in the metagame from Protoss
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On March 18 2012 05:55 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 05:40 Skyro wrote:On March 18 2012 05:26 kcdc wrote:On March 18 2012 05:02 Skyro wrote:Everybody who is saying gate expands put you too far behind in eco and can't be aggressive, etc. etc. have they tried this build? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275I've been playing with it recently and it seems solid. You get your nexus around the same time as a forge first FFE and you have a cannon and 3 zealots up before ling speed completes which seems to be enough to hold mass speedlings with proper simcity. The build also does not require any sentries either unless they go for a baneling bust which you should be able to sniff out from your early map control w/ zealots. What do you do if Z makes 12 early lings? All you have is a zealot with a core, a pylon and a nexus on the low ground, and your forge isn't done. Seems like you're just counting on not being scouted. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 12 early lings. From a 14 pool opening that 12 slow lings hit your base ~5m depending on rush distance. I time my probe scout (timing depends on the number of spawns) so that depending on what I scout I go forge or core after nexus. Forge after nexus gets up a cannon w/ 2 zealots by 5 mins. You can also cut a probe or 2 to get an even earlier forge if it proves you can't hold but I suspect you can. I'd have to watch the replays, but the idea that you can get a gateway, a nexus, 2 zealots and a cannon before lings off of a 14 pool reach your base sounds.....not true. If I FFE, I can get a forge, a nexus and a second pylon before starting my cannon, and I'll just barely have the cannon finish before 6 lings off of a 14 pool hit my base. There's no way you can get zealots, gas, a core and a forge and make it work. I'm skeptical about whether a simple no-gas gate, zealot, nexus, forge build would be 100% safe, but the build that he has hitting a 7:10 timing almost certainly isn't safe. And, of course, if you delay the gas and core, then you can't hit the 7:10 timing and you might as well do the normal +1 zealot timing off of FFE. More to the point, the strength of the build is that you can hit a +1 zealot timing at 7:10. You can hit a +1 zealot timing at 7:30 off of a FFE. 20 seconds earlier is cool, but Z is gonna see what you're doing, so it's not going to do much more damage than the normal timing unless Z responds poorly. Is a worse economy off of a less safe opening worth it?
I said you can have 2 zealots + a cannon @ 5mins, which is around when 12 lings would reach your base since you were specifically asking about 12 lings. You can defend the initial 6 lings from a 14 pool with 2 zealots with a walled-off ramp. 6 lings aren't taking down your nexus anytime soon.
And you're being disingenuous about the difference in warpgate timings. 7:30 is like the absolute quickest time warpgate tech completes after a FFE, whereas 7:10 is just that specific build's timing to line up with +1 weapons (and your gates are already transformed and zealots warping in). The absolute quickest time warpgate tech can be done out of this opening is 6:15 (not saying that's optimal or whatever but it's possible), which is a BIG difference. Would a zerg risk grabbing a 4:30 3rd vs that warp gate timing? I would venture to say no.
About the economy point as I said the nexus goes down at the same time as a forge first FFE. There is an additional probe cut @ 20 with this opening so you are slightly behind in economy comparatively yes, but it is not anything huge like say a 3-gate sentry expo would be.
In regards to if the opening is less safe, well at this point I'm not sure. So far it seems safe to me but it is such a rare opening compared to FFE that I can't say with any certainty. In fact you could make the case that this opening is MORE safe, since 6 pools are becoming quite popular vs FFE and obviously with this opening you open with a wall-off gate at your ramp which would lead to an easy 6-pool defense rather than a sacrificed forge + pylon.
So basically what I'm saying is that I'm looking at the potential of the opening itself (gate-nexus and then forge or core depending on what you scout), rather than the specific build linked.
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6pools cannot "become popular against FFE" as its blind. They are going 6pool because you intend to go FFE. If you don't go FFE every game, this will be less seen than it is presently.
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On March 18 2012 06:40 Hossinaut wrote:Just for the record, I am trying to stimulate conversation, being a zerg player myself. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:01 da_head wrote:On March 18 2012 00:34 Hossinaut wrote:
Personally, I don't understand why an FFE alternative couldn't possibly be better than an FFE. By limiting themselves to this build, in many circumstances, they limit their available options and provide for more predictable games. Which can then be exploited.
I guess what I am trying to say is what if Protoss stopped saying "FFE or die trying" and instead looked and said "I'll try to figure this out from my opening"- its the opening that determines the effectiveness of entering the mid-late game. The reason why toss always goes ffe now as opposed to gateway expand because 3 gate sentry expand is god awful (very slow economically, and cant put much pressure), 2 gate is ok but still not that very economical and 1 gate still isnt as greedy as ffe and could die to heavy unscouted aggression from the Z. So there's no reason not to FFE. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:08 hzflank wrote:On March 18 2012 00:34 Hossinaut wrote:
Personally, I don't understand why an FFE alternative couldn't possibly be better than an FFE. By limiting themselves to this build, in many circumstances, they limit their available options and provide for more predictable games. Which can then be exploited.
I guess what I am trying to say is what if Protoss stopped saying "FFE or die trying" and instead looked and said "I'll try to figure this out from my opening"- its the opening that determines the effectiveness of entering the mid-late game. If you open with a gateway at a standard time, zerg will scout it. Zerg will then make an extractor and mine 100 gas then get metabolic boost. Zerg will keep vision of the protoss expansion and if a nexus goes down before 5:00 zerg will make zerglings and the protoss player is forced to cancel the nexus. If the protoss player goes up to 3 gateways and starts the nexus at 5:50 then zerg is not only a long way ahead economically but protoss is forced to spend 600+ gas on sentries to keep the nexus alive. If a protoss goes for an early (11) gate and chronos out zealots then zerg will scout it (good zerg players know all the openings), kill the zealots and prevent protoss from starting a nexus before 6:30 (maybe much later). At the end of the day, apart from a wall-off + cannon or 6 sentries, what can stop zerglings from attacking a protoss expansion? For what it is worth I have been experimenting with alternate pvz openings for a week or so now. I have learned a lot of what does not work but not so much of what does work. What if you do Plexa's 6gate mothership? What about getting 8 gates then going fast third? (HuK v Ret WR3 MLG Winter Arena G1) I don't think he did it as best as it could have been, and maybe going 6 gate expand +2 gateways and teching behind it and playing a macro game instead of a micro one, more harassment, etc would be better. EDIT: I am not trying to say that a gateway expand is better or whatever, I am just, as I say above, trying to provide an alternative insight and one that may provide for a lot of improvement in the metagame from Protoss
I am not a progamer, and the build I did wasn't Plexa's 6gate mothership, but rather the HUARGH's mothership rush off 2 bases (which is off a onegate expand). This might not be entierly relevant. But I will share my experience anyways. First, the mothership rush works. Its not a cheese, as you can still win with it after its scouted, and it does lead into a somewhat macro game. However, notide the "did" above. There are just so many timings where you are extremely weak with this build, and most of those timings occur when the zerg -doesn't- try to somehow counter you. I feel like the only time this build works is if you meet an opponent who hasn't seen it before. Case in point, I took a game off LzGamer with it some time ago, but this was right after he changed races, and probably didn't know what the fuck to expect. Likewise I did have a somewhat good winratio with it on ladder. But the second you meet someone who knows to exploit it, you just die.
Some of these are:
-Lingroach allin right after you expand (more to do with the onegate expo and not so much the mothership).
-Roach hydra allin right before, during, or after your mothership pops (he will have such a large army advantage by this point he simply doesn't care your army is cloaked. A overseer in the back or hydras focusing down the mothership (which they will be able to do because of short cloaking distance) means you simply can't stand this push).
-Two sided Roach push right after mothership is out (generally with drops in the main and push at third). You don't really have an army to split in the first place. Maybe if you scout the drop before it happens, but if your opponent has scouted you going for mothership at this point he will have overseers and probably some spores. At which point your observer is driven out.
-Corrupter roach(hydra) push at any point in the game before 200/200. where the corrupters are properly split and not bunched up like retards.
-Banelings..
Funnily enough, this build is extremely good vs muta builds, which was hilarious at the time 140% of the zergs went for them. But anything else, not so much. At least I've felt that these problems aren't something you can change by doing small improvements in the build. If a drastically changed build comes out (I haven't tried Plexa's version for instance), then this information might not be useful whatsoever.
...
What are we talking about? Oh yeah. Stephano roach push...This build isn't the answer 
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On March 18 2012 07:18 Hossinaut wrote:
6pools cannot "become popular against FFE" as its blind. They are going 6pool because you intend to go FFE. If you don't go FFE every game, this will be less seen than it is presently.
Not to mention most FFEs are capable of stopping 6pool at the ramp (map/style dependant), at which point the zerg might as well just type GG. No matter how good you are, you can not make up for a 10 drone deficit that early in the game.
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On March 18 2012 02:56 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:11 sofakng wrote:On March 18 2012 00:33 FindMuck wrote:On March 18 2012 00:26 zJayy962 wrote:On March 18 2012 00:22 FindMuck wrote:
I must be the noob and ask, what does zerg do if you open 1/2 stargate after a FFE?
Couldn't you defend a third with SG units? If you make pure voids, then your gateway unit count will be too low. If you make phoenix they suck vs high number of roaches. Even if you go stargate you need to keep your 3rd up and usually stargate units just can't keep your 3rd base alive. Then Protoss is stuck on 2 base with stargate units that he can't do much with if Zerg prepared well with extra queens and spores. Im a zerg player, so you mean if toss opens stargate i should just do the same thing and kill his third over and over? I go stargate all the time and hold fine vs any sort of pressure from a zerg. Its great baiting them into an all in off 3 base to kill my fast third. When theyre all in fails I usually just roll them 5 minutes later. I would suggest not doing that and just teching super fast. You have to make sure you scout his army though more blink immortal you need infestors, collosus means you have a bit more time. But ya Ive only lost 3 times I can remember with the fast third after stargate build vs zerg. Incredibly strong build. I love everyones use of all in...... 3 base!!! ALL in. Whats next? 5 base all in? 8 base all in?
if they go cross map hydra roach or roach ling off 50 drones while im going to 70 yes then it is all in.
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On March 18 2012 07:11 Skyro wrote:
I said you can have 2 zealots + a cannon @ 5mins, which is around when 12 lings would reach your base since you were specifically asking about 12 lings. You can defend the initial 6 lings from a 14 pool with 2 zealots with a walled-off ramp. 6 lings aren't taking down your nexus anytime soon.
Maybe not, but they'll kill your pylon, your forge/core (if they're on the low ground), and any cannons you try to warp in. And it absolutely is possible for Z to defend a third against a 7:10 +1 zealot timing. You might be having success with the build on ladder, but it's because Zerg players don't recognize the build or know what to do. It's not a solution to the problem of Z getting an early economy lead and massing speed roaches to prevent your third any more than the 7:30 +1 zealot off a standard FFE was. If it becomes popular, Zerg players will figure it out.
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On March 18 2012 09:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 07:11 Skyro wrote:
I said you can have 2 zealots + a cannon @ 5mins, which is around when 12 lings would reach your base since you were specifically asking about 12 lings. You can defend the initial 6 lings from a 14 pool with 2 zealots with a walled-off ramp. 6 lings aren't taking down your nexus anytime soon.
Maybe not, but they'll kill your pylon, your forge/core (if they're on the low ground), and any cannons you try to warp in. And it absolutely is possible for Z to defend a third against a 7:10 +1 zealot timing. You might be having success with the build on ladder, but it's because Zerg players don't recognize the build or know what to do. It's not a solution to the problem of Z getting an early economy lead and massing speed roaches to prevent your third any more than the 7:30 +1 zealot off a standard FFE was. If it becomes popular, Zerg players will figure it out.
I don't mean camp your ramp. You wall-off ramp and stick a probe in the gap so no ling runbys and have your 2 zealots prevent building snipes while your cannon gets up. In regards to the zealot timing like I said that is that specific build's zealot timing, you can have warp gate done much faster and the mere threat of it should keep the zerg from grabbing his 3rd super early, unless you are saying a zerg could stop a 6:15 warpgate tech. The timing is great also because it forces early units, and it does make a difference because the earlier you force units the better since a zerg's economy grows exponentially the earlier he makes his workers. Not saying it's the solution b/c it is so untested but I don't see how you deny its potential.
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So I may be harping and this is because I simply don't understand on the same level you all do, but why not an 8gate into a third like in the HuK v Ret game? (G1 WR3 MLG Winter Arena Winners Bracket)
Why not 6 gate (infrastructure) into 3rd plus upgrades and then adding two gates as a wall if the 8gate into third is not economical or if its bad.
It feels like the issue is not having enough units, and I feel like having 6gates and staying off of 4 gas for a while could lead into a faster third, and even if you take the gas you can use them on more sentries, which you will very much need to hold any roach aggression either way.
Help me understand why these are poor options please-given that they are off an FFE, as I am now more aware how awful gateway expands are.
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Stephano just used his trademark roach attack against White Ra in Lonestar tournament. Rolled White Ra over before 11 minute mark.
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On March 18 2012 10:42 Koshi wrote:
Stephano just used his trademark roach attack against White Ra in Lonestar tournament. Rolled White Ra over before 11 minute mark.
White Ra also took his third base off of one gate and then did council for faster upgrades. On Daybreak.
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There goes the Titan build. Back to the drawing board.
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On March 18 2012 10:35 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 09:41 kcdc wrote:On March 18 2012 07:11 Skyro wrote:
I said you can have 2 zealots + a cannon @ 5mins, which is around when 12 lings would reach your base since you were specifically asking about 12 lings. You can defend the initial 6 lings from a 14 pool with 2 zealots with a walled-off ramp. 6 lings aren't taking down your nexus anytime soon.
Maybe not, but they'll kill your pylon, your forge/core (if they're on the low ground), and any cannons you try to warp in. And it absolutely is possible for Z to defend a third against a 7:10 +1 zealot timing. You might be having success with the build on ladder, but it's because Zerg players don't recognize the build or know what to do. It's not a solution to the problem of Z getting an early economy lead and massing speed roaches to prevent your third any more than the 7:30 +1 zealot off a standard FFE was. If it becomes popular, Zerg players will figure it out. I don't mean camp your ramp. You wall-off ramp and stick a probe in the gap so no ling runbys and have your 2 zealots prevent building snipes while your cannon gets up. In regards to the zealot timing like I said that is that specific build's zealot timing, you can have warp gate done much faster and the mere threat of it should keep the zerg from grabbing his 3rd super early, unless you are saying a zerg could stop a 6:15 warpgate tech. The timing is great also because it forces early units, and it does make a difference because the earlier you force units the better since a zerg's economy grows exponentially the earlier he makes his workers. Not saying it's the solution b/c it is so untested but I don't see how you deny its potential.
These numbers don't add up. Thanks to PvP, I know you can hit a 5:40 WG timing off of a 12 gate with core as the gate finishes. Now you're saying you can go 13 gate, nexus, gas, zealot, forge, core and hit a 6:10 WG timing. And the same build has 2 zealots and a cannon by 5:00. And you can protect the building cannon against 6 lings because you have 2 zealots before you start the cannon.
It's not gonna happen.
I believe it was Feast that I saw do a funky build with gate -> core -> forge -> nexus on Cloud Kingdom (I think?) to hit an unusually fast WG timing in a recent European tournament. That seems like it's sort of close to what you're getting at, but because the first buildings walled off the natural and the gate, core, forge and a zealot were all before the nexus, it was decently safe.
I'm not convinced that it was a super-strong build, but it hit a timing that the Zerg wasn't familiar with, and it did solid damage, leading to a Protoss win.
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Hey Skyro, I think you can put this argument to rest by posting a replay. kcdc has better rapport and has been proven to be a solid contributor to the community here in TL. His word is going to be taken with greater validity than someone who isn't similarly recognized.
I am also in your position Skyro, and I recognize the importance of having an opinion and sticking with it, but post an example and you will be taken seriously in these claims. I don't necessarily intend to intrude, but at a certain point you have to recognize that your e-peen is lesser than his and substantiate your claims. The other way to approach this I believe has been exhausted in your case by providing conversational material to probe the issue, and you continue to state that you know something.
I don't know how to say things differently or more clearly.
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Titan (again) does a very risky looking gate-first fast expand build in some of these replays http://drop.sc/packs/677
I'm honestly not sure how he holds off all the different cheeses a Zerg could try but he's nearly 80% on ladder so I suppose he has something figured out, might be worth looking into more
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On March 18 2012 11:37 Hossinaut wrote:
Hey Skyro, I think you can put this argument to rest by posting a replay. kcdc has better rapport and has been proven to be a solid contributor to the community here in TL. His word is going to be taken with greater validity than someone who isn't similarly recognized.
I am also in your position Skyro, and I recognize the importance of having an opinion and sticking with it, but post an example and you will be taken seriously in these claims. I don't necessarily intend to intrude, but at a certain point you have to recognize that your e-peen is lesser than his and substantiate your claims. The other way to approach this I believe has been exhausted in your case by providing conversational material to probe the issue, and you continue to state that you know something.
I don't know how to say things differently or more clearly.
Nah, Skyro's good. And I'm glad he brought that build up because I wouldn't have thought of the idea of getting a faster core to hit an unusually fast WG timing. But I think the 6:10 WG timing is a stretch--you'd have to play unsafe to hit that timing with a nexus before 20 supply, and I'm pretty sure that the 5:00 timing with 2 zealots and a cannon can't be hit with a 6:10 WG timing. I think the 6:10 WG timing comes if you get the core right after the nexus and chronoboost the crap out of WG tech, but if you do that, you won't have the defense up as quickly.
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EPT
