I think this build is getting outdated, Mana has the 8 gate immortal push that has great potential to win the roach build.
Guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346737

I now use it every PvZ and it works well even if I miss some of the timings (I'm plat).

I personaly see this as the solution to this build and that in hots every stargate opener will completely get this build trashed, and we could get our win rate vs zerg back to 90%++

GLHF!

Arcanefrost

Belgium1257 Posts

July 08 2012 21:39 GMT

#1542

Immo/sentry 2base has been around for months. It's nothing revolutionary, just a refined timing to add to your arsenal.

AirbladeOrange

United States2574 Posts

July 09 2012 05:19 GMT

#1543

On July 09 2012 03:31 draemn wrote:
I have been tending to skip sentries... maybe one or two sentires if I can wall off the ramp to my natural with 2 FF or less just to defend home base when they split their roaches.

Part of the problem with going any kind of non-forge fast expand is they build a pool first and can easily kill you if you don't make a forge and they scout it. The other problem is if you don't FEE expand, it just takes the game back to what it was 6 months ago and zerg found lots of ways to survive 1 base pressure. I have little experince in what will work as I haven't been able to win vs players who PROPERLY follow this build (many gold/plats mess up the build slightly).

Where do you get the idea that you can't gateway expand? Just because you may not be able to do it or it may be difficult does not mean that you will die if you don't have a forge against pool first. It sounds like uninformed generalizations to me.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

July 10 2012 15:20 GMT

#1544

It seems to me that pros are settling back into the 2-base timing set of strategies, to the extent that they'd ever left. Most of the Zerg losses I see are to 2-base timings that they weren't prepared for, and most of the rest of the Zerg losses I see are to big vortexes. But the general trend seems to be to use a mixture of 2-base timings and sprinkle in some 3-base builds in as a change up to keeps Zergs honest so they don't over-defend the 8 to 11 minute timing window.

Of course, some 2-base timings are more all-in than others. Sometimes, you'll see a good aggressive attack with an expansion starting as the push winds down. Those still have to do damage to stay even, but the bar to stay in the game is lower with that third base building behind the push.

monk

United States8476 Posts

July 10 2012 16:54 GMT

#1545

On July 11 2012 00:20 kcdc wrote:
It seems to me that pros are settling back into the 2-base timing set of strategies, to the extent that they'd ever left. Most of the Zerg losses I see are to 2-base timings that they weren't prepared for, and most of the rest of the Zerg losses I see are to big vortexes. But the general trend seems to be to use a mixture of 2-base timings and sprinkle in some 3-base builds in as a change up to keeps Zergs honest so they don't over-defend the 8 to 11 minute timing window.

Of course, some 2-base timings are more all-in than others. Sometimes, you'll see a good aggressive attack with an expansion starting as the push winds down. Those still have to do damage to stay even, but the bar to stay in the game is lower with that third base building behind the push.

Iono, 3 base plays are way way more common than they were half a year ago. I think you're just watching MC and new-age Mana too much.

Jasiwel

United States146 Posts

September 03 2012 20:53 GMT

#1546

When I played a recent Roach Speed/Max build, I decided to go Stargate to see if there was a way to pull a win. Earlier that day I lost against a Zerg that transitioned to a Ling/Roach/Muta build that was impossible to win against (playing bad doesn't really help). I think I held off 3-4 waves of Roaches with Stargate/Gateway before Hydras tackled my air and there was really no way for me to expand. In short, even going Gateway/Stargate is too risky because it either requires some expert timing with Stargate placement (so you're having Phoenixes out just in time to combat Mutas and before he notices you have a Stargate so he doesn't go Hydra) or rely on some serious luck since going Robo/Gateway/Stargate is almost impossible until lategame when you have 3 to 4+ bases. NEVER ENOUGH VESPENE GAS.

Also, FFE never really inspired me, mainly because I've played a lot of customs or Monobattles with Roach timings that devestate wall-offs like it. Sure it gives you more time to react and fight off the first few waves, but like we saw with Elfi vs. Stephano, it really does little good once that pendulum starts gaining momentum. It was easy to see the problems with it.

Has anyone gone Stargate and held-off long enough to bring out a powerful Carrier/Phoenix/Chargelot/Stalker composition?

Supah

708 Posts

September 17 2012 19:17 GMT

#1547

Are there any recent replays of pros holding this when the Zerg is just like "OK, I'm going to keep doing this until one of us dies."

InfusedTT.DaZe

Romania693 Posts

September 17 2012 19:46 GMT

#1548

usually when zerg does that they drag the game out for a few more mins, but if you defense it well and get on 6+ gates and blink imortal or 6+gates and collosus imortal it's pretty much over so zergs have steered away from it for some more infestor play and 4th bases

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

September 17 2012 21:11 GMT

#1549

I think the build is still really strong, but the newer maps take the edge off the attack. The maxed roach rush is still pretty close to auto-win against a Protoss fast third on Antiga. It's kind of crazy how much map design affects balance. The rush is borderline unstoppable unless the third is right next natural and has a choke that you can wall off. So now maps have that feature, and the rushes stop.

I don't really like the new metagame where the bases are so close together and easily defended that if P takes a third, there's no fighting until 20 minutes. I guess swarm hosts will fix that tho. Too bad P won't get a unit that makes it possible to take a third that's remotely exposed.

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