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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
can anybody post replays or does anybody want to discuss the current muta transition that is going on ? I am mid to low master on the eu ladder and I am comming up vs zergs who open the exact early 3 base roach style and when they make their 1st 2 rounds of roaches they check your defence, they also throw up a hidden spire and basically go mass mass muta of 3-4 base which quite frankly is game winning vs me in most situations..
I find if they scout you and see your playing the long game and going for a 3rd they throw up the spire..
i read the last 6 pages and saw nothing mentioned about this but would like peoples thoughts..
I beat it once yesterday when i saw the spire building and i basically just 1a'ed the guy and moved across the map with about 4 immortals and 7 gates.. he never made any mutas as he was forced to make roaches but i won.. i do find the second they get those mutas out i am dead, i have started not getting a second robo and start getting the twilight + teching to archons instead of colousus and just hoping my force fields are better as i expect this transition a lot now
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On June 13 2012 03:43 La1 wrote:
can anybody post replays or does anybody want to discuss the current muta transition that is going on ? I am mid to low master on the eu ladder and I am comming up vs zergs who open the exact early 3 base roach style and when they make their 1st 2 rounds of roaches they check your defence, they also throw up a hidden spire and basically go mass mass muta of 3-4 base which quite frankly is game winning vs me in most situations..
I find if they scout you and see your playing the long game and going for a 3rd they throw up the spire..
i read the last 6 pages and saw nothing mentioned about this but would like peoples thoughts..
I beat it once yesterday when i saw the spire building and i basically just 1a'ed the guy and moved across the map with about 4 immortals and 7 gates.. he never made any mutas as he was forced to make roaches but i won.. i do find the second they get those mutas out i am dead, i have started not getting a second robo and start getting the twilight + teching to archons instead of colousus and just hoping my force fields are better as i expect this transition a lot now
anybody watching IPL can see huk getting rolled by this at the moment 
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I've gotten pretty good at holding off the maxed out roaches after taking a quick third after a robo and gates, however i still have 0 idea on how to beat a player who gets overlord transport and speed fairly quickly. i rely on the sim city to hold off the pushes, but this just negates that. any tips on how to change up something to be better prepared? there's a replay below of an example.
http://replayfu.com/r/xGDPv
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I'm wondering how many people have tried using a variation of the YufFE expand. I find with the super greedy zerg meta game that I can go gate, nexus while still being super safe against early ling timings. I've been using this build with a high amount of success. It allows for a earlier cyber core which helps getting warpgates faster to put on more pressure.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275
Zergs that take a late gas can do very little pressure against toss without having ling speed.
I'm just trying to help point out other builds that aren't FFE
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Canada13410 Posts
I want to know what we are supposed to do against the next variation the max roach -- the drops that happen in the main alongside roaches at the third. Forcefields are so much more useless now.
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Everyones trying to take a fath third with robo. Just use stargate and then no worries about muta transition without him dieing if you scout actively.
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On June 13 2012 13:40 ZeromuS wrote:
I want to know what we are supposed to do against the next variation the max roach -- the drops that happen in the main alongside roaches at the third. Forcefields are so much more useless now.
I seem to find that the 4gate robo into fast third just dies to any kind of early roach ling drops.
Edit: By early I do of course mean 11/12 minute
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On June 13 2012 13:40 ZeromuS wrote:
I want to know what we are supposed to do against the next variation the max roach -- the drops that happen in the main alongside roaches at the third. Forcefields are so much more useless now.
Has this started happening yet? I predicted months ago that roach spam + drops would be the next big trend after P's learned to beat pure roach spam with sentries, but I've quit playing, and I don't know if it's happening now. Any VODs available?
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It happens. I have seen it on high level streams ie tubbythefat.
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Yeah saw it happens a few times in the Playhem too. It's not standard yet, but it definitely happens more often than a few months ago.
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Canada13410 Posts
On June 14 2012 23:11 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:40 ZeromuS wrote:
I want to know what we are supposed to do against the next variation the max roach -- the drops that happen in the main alongside roaches at the third. Forcefields are so much more useless now. Has this started happening yet? I predicted months ago that roach spam + drops would be the next big trend after P's learned to beat pure roach spam with sentries, but I've quit playing, and I don't know if it's happening now. Any VODs available?
Yeah its happening, Curious vs MC in the MLG Spring arena, and most any ZvP on Daybreak now when the Protoss has a third base. I've played against it a few times on ladder as well.
Also, why did you quit playing? Not even for fun? D:
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Do protosses still lose to this? I feel like everyone I play just takes a third behind 10 sentries and there's no weak point. I love the style of play though so if someone has a way to keep this viable I think that'd be interesting.
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On June 14 2012 23:11 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:40 ZeromuS wrote:
I want to know what we are supposed to do against the next variation the max roach -- the drops that happen in the main alongside roaches at the third. Forcefields are so much more useless now. Has this started happening yet? I predicted months ago that roach spam + drops would be the next big trend after P's learned to beat pure roach spam with sentries, but I've quit playing, and I don't know if it's happening now. Any VODs available?
in the replay i posted a few posts up, it shows off this strategy and my attempt at stopping it. i'm only mid masters, but the guy executed it fairly well and i'm still struggling to find out what to do. one interesting thing i've seen sase do is completely skip observers and instantly make a shitload of immortals, using hallucination to scout. this may help get a couple of more immortals out in time, which may help a lot.
http://replayfu.com/r/xGDPv
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On June 15 2012 04:01 LeafBlower wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 23:11 kcdc wrote:On June 13 2012 13:40 ZeromuS wrote:
I want to know what we are supposed to do against the next variation the max roach -- the drops that happen in the main alongside roaches at the third. Forcefields are so much more useless now. Has this started happening yet? I predicted months ago that roach spam + drops would be the next big trend after P's learned to beat pure roach spam with sentries, but I've quit playing, and I don't know if it's happening now. Any VODs available? in the replay i posted a few posts up, it shows off this strategy and my attempt at stopping it. i'm only mid masters, but the guy executed it fairly well and i'm still struggling to find out what to do. one interesting thing i've seen sase do is completely skip observers and instantly make a shitload of immortals, using hallucination to scout. this may help get a couple of more immortals out in time, which may help a lot. http://replayfu.com/r/xGDPv
Check this game, Squirtle vs Violet, Cloud Kingdom, Red Bull Lan:
http://server1.redbulllan.com/production/dynamic/starcraft/replays/CloudKingdomLE_2.SC2Replay
While defending this attack in Cloud K is much easier than in other maps (aka Daybreak), the key is good multitask that allows very good scout, that would prolly allowed Squirtle to beat this attack in any map. He had a sick scout, with 2 obs plus hallucination. I still find funny is the fact that Squirtle totally demolished the multi pronged attack, but Violet was still in the game u.u
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The drop play is a pretty disconcerting concept, and I'm still wrapping my head around stopping this build on shakuras. Anyone with tips on a base/sim city setup that does well vs it on that map would be a welcome friend to me, because I can't seem to figure anything out. If I take the close third I end up in a weird engagement between my nat and third (open space = bad) and if I take the far third I feel I'm spread too thin. As a result I've just been doing 2 base all ins on that map, but if zergs start incorporating drop play with the roaches I feel that my plan may just fall apart on the safer maps, as well. I'd have to see some replays or vods of it, but it's a pretty interesting and frightful concept.
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In it's current state PvZ feels like a complete and utter joke from the Protoss standpoint, If you somehow manage to forcefield perfectly and micro multiple fronts in order to trade cost effectively (One mistake pretty much costs you the same) you are still screwed going into the late game. Having to rely on a gimmicky 3 base timing before Brood Lords which good Zergs can stop is pretty abysmal, even more gimmicky is having to rely on a mass carrier transition late game going undetected or a really lucky Archon toilet.
The simple thought that Zergs are starting to use Overlord drops makes me cringe for the future of Protoss in this matchup. Not to mention Zerg are finally transitioning into Mutalisk again after they realized it was never bad to begin with (as demonstrated by DRG) making everything even more frustrating than it already is.
It's not even hard for medicore Zergs to execute these strategies at this point, as long as they got injecting down to a good level. (which is actually really easy considering they never have to micro nor place buildings) It's very disheartening to watch replays of my Zerg counterparts getting supply blocked for 5-10 seconds at a time and still producing and macroing like a top end Zerg because of the larva mechanic and its stacking abilities.
2 base isn't even viable anymore considering theres almost zero solid ways to mask any sort of timing attack from overlords, pardon my qq but this match up just makes me so angry.
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ZenexLife vs Im_seed was a good example of that in TSL4 qualifier
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United States4883 Posts
I'm gonna tell you straight up: never turtle and go 2-base colossus against zerg unless they're really bad and didn't take a 3rd after your FFE. DRG does this kind of mass style, but does a tech switch to mutas after his initial roaches die. And mutas off of 6-8 geysers is TERRIFYING, especially if you decided to go colossus.
The best ways I've seen of holding it is going for an early robo, getting a lot of immortals and sentries, and just fighting in chokes while taking a 3rd. OR opening up single stargate with 1 void ray and a bunch of phoenixes while securing a 3rd. If you do not take a 3rd by 12:00, you should lose to zerg in the macro.
I think FFE has been figured out and there's not a whole lot of further exploration there. Protoss, at this point, can probably go back to experimenting with 1-base openings due to the metagame change. We've seen protoss invent a thousand different ways to open in PvP over the past year...I'm sure some of those ideas could be carried over into PvZ.
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On June 15 2012 15:53 Greenhit wrote:
ZenexLife vs Im_seed was a good example of that in TSL4 qualifier
Another one is Seed vs Hyun on Entombed Valley on TSL qualifiers Round 5. Its kinda scary when zerg sees Tos getting a fast 3rd and responding by getting a 4th with Macro hatch and drop. Seed could have died so easily without those Force Fields around drops. Roach Drop is getting very common lately and seems to be another phase of the Roach max army.
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EPT
