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[G] PvZ Adonminus Macro-Aggressive Style

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Adonminus
Profile Joined January 2012
Israel543 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 18:54:42
February 25 2012 10:48 GMT
#1
Hello TL. I'm Adonminus, a high master protoss player on eu. I'm very happy to present to you my first guide about PvZ. It can help you a lot in your PvZ as it's a very fun strategy, since you're always on the offensive and not turtling on your 2-3 bases.

Introduction: Basic ideas
+ Show Spoiler [Introduction] +
Introduction
I was developing a style against zerg where I would do multiple early timing attacks while being able to make more workers than the zerg. Most protoss players will try to just macro up on 2 bases, get a 3rd base, be mostly on the defensive while getting those fancy late game units such as colossus, high templars and mothership. This play allows zerg to make a lot of workers. Zerg became very good at defending harassments from such protoss players such as void rays or warp prism so it's not effective anymore. Warp gate pushes off FFE come too late and don't work either. Like that zerg gets tons of workers and is able to outmacro the protoss, and easily establish a powerful zerg deathball of infestor broodlord in the lategame, which might be very hard to deal with as protoss. My play offers a solution to this by doing a series of powerful and early timing attacks which limit zerg play and force him on the defensive, while I can macro up with similar amounts of workers as him and sometimes even more. I don't need the fancy late game tech anymore, as I use gateway units such as zealots and stalker with powerful upgrades like +1, +2 and blink.


Build order and Opening
+ Show Spoiler [Opening] +
Opening Build Order
I open with a 1 gate expand, similar to YufFE expand you can find on liquidpedia, however my variation is abit different from it, which allows me to get a really early cybercore while still expanding. (~3:40 cybercore is started usually). Here's the opening build order:

PLEASE USE THE UPDATED VERSION BUILD ORDER AT THE END OF THE POST.

+ Show Spoiler [Outdated build order] +

9 pylon (chrono 2 times at 11, at 13)
13 gate (chrono at 15)
16 nexus (rally 16th probe to nat)
16 pylon (low ground)
16 zealot
18 gas
@100% pylon; chrono probes
20 core (low ground)
20 forge (high ground)
(you can not cut probes and make forge later, however makes you more vulnerable to early zerglings)
20 zealot
@100% core; warp gate
@100% forge; +1 weapon, photon cannon
(note: get +1 before photon cannon if there's no zergling threat)
28 zealot
34 3xgateways (1-3 on low ground to close wall, others on high ground depending on map)
36 twilight council (later on this)
36 pylon
36 x2 gas


(Note: Put probe to close the wall on the high ground so lings can't go in)
(Note2: Chrono your core and forge for them to be complete at 7:00 min for warp gate, 7:10 for +1)



Here's an example of the building placement on Korhal Compound:
[image loading]



Early Game Timing
+ Show Spoiler [7:10 Timing Push] +
+1 Zealot Timing
Now we're getting to the interesting part, our first timing push. You will have 3 zealots now, send them out with a probe. (Probe is optional if you succeeded to hide your initial scout probe near your opponents base) Start +2 as soon as +1 finishes. Start blink after 1st wave of zealots warped.

Now you should have 1-2 pylon complete near your enemies base, and 4 zealots warp started at 7:10, your +1 should finish at that moment aswell. You will push with 7 zealots with +1 to his 3rd or natural depending on map. (Note: Killing his natural is possible with this build) Also remember doing a lot of damage is option as well, we are here to force units and hurt his drone production. Retreat if you see roaches. You should always be able to kill his 3rd if you correctly execute this build.

4 gates and +1 almost done at 7:00
[image loading]

7 zealots preparing to attack at 7:10
[image loading]



Early-Mid Game Stalker Aggression
+ Show Spoiler [11min Blink Stalker Timing] +
Blink Stalker Harasses and 3rd Base
Our zerg buddy over here just had to make an enormous investment in units right now, what should he do now? The answer is either drone hard using the army for defense, either more larger army to attack. The blink stalker timing counters both. Let me remind you what we have: We have 4 gates, 2 bases with 3 gas mining, a twilight council, a forge. We have +2 and Blink on the way. I want to underline that +2 stalkers 3 shot zerglings instead of 4 shotting them. Aswell as 9 shot roaches instead of 11 shot, this means our early +2 will give us a huge advantage in our push.

Add 2 more gateways as soon as you can. (Depends on number of zealots you warped in first push, and if zerg is going to pressure you or not)

Remember to use terrain to your advantage, that's what blink stalkers are about.

Push with 12-18 stalkers to his 3rd while establishing a 3rd yourself. This push and 3rd should be done 10-12 min according to the responses of zerg and the investment in the 1st push.

TLDR; 12-18 blink stalker push (10-12min)
......... 3rd base behind this push (11min)

Zerg made lots of roaches to stop 1st push and he's going on the offensive, it might look like a scary push but those stalkers will have blink and +2 in some seconds, aswell as 6 more stalkers will warp once my 2 gates finish. The zerg push will be demolished with almost no losses.
[image loading]



Mid-Late Game Transitions
+ Show Spoiler [Mid-Late Game] +
What to do if zerg refuses to die at 13min?
Well, do what ever you want. I would recommand either adding 1 robo and getting immortals then either adding a templar archive for high templars either robotic bay for colossus and expand. However remember our playstyle, if you haven't forgotten it's called macro-aggressive. You continue making blink stalkers off 6-12 gates, while establishing a 4th and 5th, don't be afraid to trade armies with the zerg. Start getting the lategame fancy units such as colossus, mothership and high templars, while forcing zerg on as less bases as possible, try to delay his broodlord tech as long as possible. One great example of late game is my match vs Breathe who's a zerg GM on europe.

TLDR; Get a robo or two and make Colossus.
......... Get high templars and mothership.
(Note: You can go templar archive and skip robo, but it's weak vs burrow roaches)

Late game Deathball: Believe me, you don't want to be that zerg.
[image loading]



Strategy Replays:
+ Show Spoiler [Replays] +
You don't believe I'm that awesome? Then here's proof.

Showcase match: Facing top 100 GM zerg named Breathe
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Breathe_vs_(P)Adonminus/18143

Normal Replays: I'm sorry that most replays end at 13 min, the blink stalker push is just so strong.
Game 1: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)nongminzerg_vs_(P)Adonminus/18285
Game 2: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)rotab_vs_(P)Adonminus/18286
Game 3: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Adonminus_vs_(Z)rotab/18287
Game 4: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Adonminus_vs_(Z)AsŦSteaDy/18288
Game 5: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Deinoff_vs_(P)Adonminus/18292
Game 6: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Kellogz_vs_(P)Adonminus/18291
New: Game 10: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Dwar_vs_(P)Adonminus/18322

Holding All in: All ins always existed, thought you'd never face some?
Game 7: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Snitchables_vs_(P)Adonminus/18290
Game 8: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Adonminus_vs_(Z)AsŦLoKeN/18293
Game 9: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Adonminus_vs_(Z)Gamtja/18294

Refined version games: 3 first games are vs GMs, worth watching.
Game 1: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)SodoN_vs_(P)NOMAdonminus/19176
Game 2: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)hwbgGiantt_vs_(P)NOMAdonminus/19192
Game 3: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)NOMAdonminus_vs_(Z)nBǂBsK/19177
Game 4: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)mylove_vs_(P)NOMAdonminus/19193
Game 5: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)NOMAdonminus_vs_(Z)Null/19194
Game 6: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)NOMAdonminus_vs_(Z)Null/19195
Game 7: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)JeRic_vs_(P)NOMAdonminus/19196
Game 8: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008


I added a more refined version which gives you much better macro and almost not cut workers.

Updated and Refined Version
+ Show Spoiler [Refined Version] +

9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (could make this after core vs hatch first)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot (chrono)
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 Assimilators


Explanations and notes:
-Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut
-Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga).
-Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings.
-Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro.
-You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro.
-Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd)
-Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes.
-I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council.

Here's a replay as an example:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008


I hope you enjoyed reading my guide.
Good luck have fun.
ichunddu9
Profile Joined January 2012
21 Posts
February 25 2012 10:59 GMT
#2
nice guide i like it
SpeCtor
Profile Joined August 2010
233 Posts
February 25 2012 11:13 GMT
#3
Its interesting [in the breathe game] that the Zerg still managed to keep up on 3 bases and 60 workers verses 80 workers and 4 bases. And his comment at the end made me lol. Good guide.
WarBobz
Profile Joined September 2011
68 Posts
February 25 2012 11:13 GMT
#4
Nice guide, yet you could've done a little better.
Quote:

9 pylon (chrono 2 times at 10, at 13)
13 gate (chrono at 15)
16 nexus (rally 16th probe to nat)
16 pylon (low ground)
18 zealot
18 gas
@100% pylon; chrono probes
20 core (low ground)
20 forge (high ground)
(you can not cut probes and make forge later, however makes you more vulnerable to early zerglings)
22 zealot
@100% core; warp gate
@100% forge; gas +1
@100% forge; photon cannon
(note: get +1 before photon cannon if there's no zergling threat)
30 zealot
34 3xgateways (1-3 on low ground to close wall, others on high ground depending on map)
36 twilight council (later on this)
36 pylon
36 x2 gas

You could've put:
@100 Core: -Warp Gate
@100% forge - Photon Cannon and +1 weapons.
34: 3 gateways. (1-3 on low ground to close wall, others on high ground depending on map)

This is my opinion, yet It does have potential.
Still one question, why +2 not +1 armor after weapons? because zealots will survive more and do more damage than with +2. Why not +2? Because +1 weapons - 2shot lings. Understandable. +1 armor = more armor to tank = more ling kills. Especially good in choke.
Ahem. My time to shine. I haz 4k+ achi points and I'm zerg! =D
JoonX
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada72 Posts
February 25 2012 11:27 GMT
#5
I was considering this type of opening too since I utterly dislike the current metageme of FFE opening. It just feels like youre setting yourself to be the reactive player. Im the type that wants to dictate the pace of the game. This opening does open up some potential for that. Ill check it out meyself if I can spare some time after my University obligations.
There is no such things as counters. Only responses. Good or bad? Up to you.
Adonminus
Profile Joined January 2012
Israel543 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 11:36:02
February 25 2012 11:34 GMT
#6
On February 25 2012 20:13 WarBobz wrote:
This is my opinion, yet It does have potential.
Still one question, why +2 not +1 armor after weapons? because zealots will survive more and do more damage than with +2. Why not +2? Because +1 weapons - 2shot lings. Understandable. +1 armor = more armor to tank = more ling kills. Especially good in choke.

I already mentioned it, it's even underlined, +2 weapon allows blink stalkers to 3 shot lings instead of 4 shotting them. Blink already gives stalkers enough survivability.

On February 25 2012 20:13 WarBobz wrote:
You could've put:
@100 Core: -Warp Gate
@100% forge - Photon Cannon and +1 weapons.
34: 3 gateways. (1-3 on low ground to close wall, others on high ground depending on map)

I'll consider improving it.

On February 25 2012 20:27 JoonX wrote:
I was considering this type of opening too since I utterly dislike the current metageme of FFE opening. It just feels like youre setting yourself to be the reactive player. Im the type that wants to dictate the pace of the game. This opening does open up some potential for that. Ill check it out meyself if I can spare some time after my University obligations.

Exactly, this guide doesn't mention reactions since you dictate the game, making the zerg the reactionary race.
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
February 25 2012 12:33 GMT
#7
Looks a bit similar to my build. However I'd like more explanations regarding holding early zerglings rush ( especially when he gets gas first and has speed around the 5' mark ), and also banneling busts ( sounds scary, you only have zealots, no sentries, no stalkers ? ).
Adonminus
Profile Joined January 2012
Israel543 Posts
February 25 2012 12:46 GMT
#8
On February 25 2012 21:33 Nyast wrote:
Looks a bit similar to my build. However I'd like more explanations regarding holding early zerglings rush ( especially when he gets gas first and has speed around the 5' mark ), and also banneling busts ( sounds scary, you only have zealots, no sentries, no stalkers ? ).

I think replay 9 can show you how you can hold that kind of pressure. Indeed, such rushes are scary and you need perfect execution to hold them, I was getting forge at 24 earlier but now I get it at 20 since it's hard to hold those with late cannons.

I can give you a tip how to scout those: If you arrive at his base and his expansion isn't started or only 10% done, it is most likely he all ins. Especially when he has gas. So if you see late expansion, you can build 2-3 cannons instead of 1. Even if he doesn't all in, it evens out because he expanded late while you expanded early.
Yuffie
Profile Joined June 2010
132 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 12:58:48
February 25 2012 12:52 GMT
#9
oO nice guide, only thing I'd ask, what will you do against 2 base baneling bust ? there seems to not be any sentry , and i included 2 sentry into my yufFE to be save against that.
Makuly
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Taiwan54 Posts
February 25 2012 12:53 GMT
#10
Very interesting build, however it seems you are replicating MC's PvZ style:
Opening with FFE into 4-7g with +1 and DT -> if dealt enough damage @ 3rd, end game with +2 blink stalker push
If not, take 3rd base , place down robos -> immortal /stalker/sentry
Warp prism harassment :zlots/dt
late game: add colossus/ht
He kills most if not all Zergs before they get too many broodlords, hence never seeing him use mothership before.
Protoss is meant to be played like MC: dynamic, aggressive and unpredictable. Not turtling and playing passive all game and getting deathball.
Adonminus
Profile Joined January 2012
Israel543 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 13:03:50
February 25 2012 12:59 GMT
#11
On February 25 2012 21:52 Yuffie wrote:
only thing I'd ask, what will you do against 2 base baneling bust ? there seems to not be any sentry , and i included 2 sentry into my yufFE to be save against that.

Thanks Yuffie, your YufFE inspired me. As for your question, if he does it on 2 base, it will hit already when I have warp gate I assume. I will use my 300 gas on 3 sentries instead of +2 and blink. It would have similar defense like the one against the roach rush in replay 8.

On February 25 2012 21:53 Makuly wrote:
Very interesting build, however it seems you are replicating MC's PvZ style:
Opening with FFE into 4-7g with +1 and DT -> if dealt enough damage @ 3rd, end game with +2 blink stalker push
If not, take 3rd base , place down robos -> immortal /stalker/sentry
Warp prism harassment :zlots/dt
late game: add colossus/ht
He kills most if not all Zergs before they get too many broodlords, hence never seeing him use mothership before.
Protoss is meant to be played like MC: dynamic, aggressive and unpredictable. Not turtling and playing passive all game and getting deathball.

Except, it's not FFE and it's not DT. But still may be a bit similar, agree on the rest. I should do more warp prism harasses I think.
achristes
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Norway653 Posts
February 25 2012 13:27 GMT
#12
Not cool bro, ZvP is already my worst matchup, this will make it even worse

Nice guide though.
youtube.com/spooderm4n | twitch.tv/spooderm4n | Random videos and games I feel like uploading
WarBobz
Profile Joined September 2011
68 Posts
February 25 2012 13:48 GMT
#13
Not cool bro, ZvP is already my worst matchup, this will make it even worse

Nice guide though.


That :<
Ahem. My time to shine. I haz 4k+ achi points and I'm zerg! =D
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 14:12:29
February 25 2012 14:09 GMT
#14
On February 25 2012 21:46 Adonminus wrote:
I think replay 9 can show you how you can hold that kind of pressure. Indeed, such rushes are scary and you need perfect execution to hold them, I was getting forge at 24 earlier but now I get it at 20 since it's hard to hold those with late cannons.


You need perfect execution.. and also a bit of hesitation from your opponent, and luck, I think. I watched replay 9 and I'm not convinced. At 6'35 there are 30 lings outside your natural, versus 3 zealots and 2 cannons. Had he immediately attacked instead of playing around with your zealots and waited to morph bannelings... Warp wasn't finished, he could have probably at least killed your natural.

What do you do vs a 10 or 11 pool ? Cancel your nexus and transition to something else ?

Other than that, if you can pull it off, it looks like a really good build. You can put a ton of pressure on Zerg while macroing at the same time.
Yuffie
Profile Joined June 2010
132 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 14:37:49
February 25 2012 14:36 GMT
#15
2 base baneling will hit at 6:00 , you really need 1 sentry i guess :D

@nyast, u are ahead even if u cancel nexus. but if you can keep track of reinforcement, you can still decide. i had a game agaisnt 10 pool where i just chronoboosted out 3 zealots and kept nexus since there were only 6 ling out of 10 pool. ( into expand)
Adonminus
Profile Joined January 2012
Israel543 Posts
February 25 2012 14:47 GMT
#16
On February 25 2012 23:36 Yuffie wrote:
2 base baneling will hit at 6:00 , you really need 1 sentry i guess :D

You might be right, I'll have to test it out first though. I believe you'll have enough gas for stalkers after, only blink will be delayed slightly.
Foks
Profile Joined December 2011
United States71 Posts
February 25 2012 15:25 GMT
#17
Cool!
Xaldarian
Profile Joined February 2012
Netherlands65 Posts
February 25 2012 15:32 GMT
#18
After lurking on this forum since beta, I found your guide so interesting I wanted to reply. so here goes, what would you do vs a speedling expand like 14/14 or 11 pool? I find that I can't deal with them without a forge. You seem to leave yourself wide open, how do you deal with early pressure OP? plat toss here.
Those who lived in darkness have seen a great light
Xaldarian
Profile Joined February 2012
Netherlands65 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 15:42:43
February 25 2012 15:41 GMT
#19
Sigh, double post
Those who lived in darkness have seen a great light
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 16:25:41
February 25 2012 16:07 GMT
#20
I could be wrong but if a zerg goes 14/14 his drone scout will arrive after you've placed your gate and as your nexus is building. He will be able to surmise that you don't have a forge and your core is delayed. He could then rush straight to roaches and just kill you I think, or at least deny your nexus.

The closest that this happened is the game on shakuras, but the warren was very delayed, and the zerg went hatch pool gas. Even so, had the roaches arrived even slightly faster, they would've done a lot of damage.
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
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