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[G] PvZ Adonminus Macro-Aggressive Style - Page 13
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T.BonePickens
United States50 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
+1 roaches cannot beat +3 blinkstalkers. Z having the hardest macro mechanic is just a noob myth. It have the most mechanical and easier to learn macro mechanic, not as friendly as mules, but not hard at all. The match up is bad designed, retarded and Z starts from 6 min and on ahead, yes, is a sad fact. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
On April 28 2012 02:30 T.BonePickens wrote: I wish this build would actually work, but instead all zerg has to do is create a single roach. One unupgradged roach can solo an entire T3 protoss army no problem. All the zerg has to do is rely on its retarded, broken production and they can never be behind. PvZ is just a ticking time bomb till the zerg gets broodlords, which the zerg doesn't actually need since roaches are the most cost efficient unit in the game, and mutas are invincible. I don't know why any Protoss tries to play PvZ. I thought it was a fun match up. Until I realized that you can't punish a zerg for anything, and they can easily come back from 1 base to three. Sure zerg has the hardest macro mechanic, however thats so every player who chooses zerg doesn't auto win every game. I honestly don't know how fucking +1/+0 ROACHES CAN BEAT +3/+0 BLINK stalkers. But it fucking happens. I'm probably a scrub. I'm probably the worst diamond player in the fucking planet. But every PvZ I play comes down to the zerg massing roaches and than wins no matter what I do. Be it harass, tech, or out marco. I consistently play better than zergs, however their 75mins/25 gas heroes destroy my equal number of 125min/50gas failtards. I have no idea who decided this matchup is fucking balanced, but they should be beheaded for their ignorance. If +1 roaches beat your +3 stalkers then you are doing something wrong. Your macro is behind, or maybe your positioning is bad.. or maybe if it's massive amounts of roaches you need to add some sentries or tech switch. I use this build in diamond and low/mid masters and it works fine in both, at least till Z gets used to it. If your execution is good, I really have no idea how you can not have at least 50% winrate using this in Diamond, unless I am getting extremely lucky with my opponents. And I was losing to Z consistently before stumbling onto this thread Maybe refine your execution and improve your macro? Drop the mentality you had in this post, or you will never win. If you're Diamond there are a ton of things you could improve to win even if there is an imbalance. And you should stop being delusional - it's obvious from your rant that you are playing way worse than Zergs you're facing. Admit that to yourself, improve, and win. Another edit: to be fair, cant say that I havent been in the same place (and even lost w +3 Stalkers vs +1 Roaches as well). I also raged at times and proclaimed to myself how retardedly ez Z is when using imba roaches.. Then I looked at the replay and realized it was me who failed a ton | ||
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T.BonePickens
United States50 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:12 iokke wrote: If +1 roaches beat your +3 stalkers then you are doing something wrong. Your macro is behind, or maybe your positioning is bad.. or maybe if it's massive amounts of roaches you need to add some sentries or tech switch. I use this build in diamond and low/mid masters and it works fine in both, at least till Z gets used to it. If your execution is good, I really have no idea how you can not have at least 50% winrate using this in Diamond, unless I am getting extremely lucky with my opponents. And I was losing to Z consistently before stumbling onto this thread Maybe refine your execution and improve your macro? Drop the mentality you had in this post, or you will never win. If you're Diamond there are a ton of things you could improve to win even if there is an imbalance. And you should stop being delusional - it's obvious from your rant that you are playing way worse than Zergs you're facing. Admit that to yourself, improve, and win. Another edit: to be fair, cant say that I havent been in the same place (and even lost w +3 Stalkers vs +1 Roaches as well). I also raged at times and proclaimed to myself how retardedly ez Z is when using imba roaches.. Then I looked at the replay and realized it was me who failed a ton I apologize for my previous rant. It was uncalled for and child. I am just frustrated with the match up. I use this build to try and punish a greedy zerg by keeping them on a even base count. I usually managed to kill his third with the initial seven zealots. However it is the second phase of the build that gives me trouble. If I can't keep him on two bases then I'll just lose the game straight there. I believe my problem is dealing with the mid game roaches. I don't know the proper response. Is it immortals? Sentries? Voidrays? I feel like immortals and sentries will kill my mobility, but honestly I'll take any suggestion. If anyone has any advice on dealing with the mid game roach swarm that would be awesome. Below are two of my most recent PvZ's where I have trouble dealing with mid-game roaches and ends in a lost.( I'm not really that BM, I just have been extremely frustrated with this matchup recently) The only thing I can see is that the zerg out produces me in the mid game, I don't know if this is my fault for having inferior macro, or just the wrong response against the zerg. Any pointers would be much appreciated, and once again I am sincerely sorry for my previous post. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/18756 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/18755 | ||
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Lancerx
United States39 Posts
I been using this strategy for a week now and I have to say I have won like 90% of the games I'v played. Im currently playing top masters play right now and winning a sick amount of games. I do have one question, or concern about the build. On say 90% of the games I play I push out with my zealots and the player usually takes a 3rd and drones, then I hit him, or he sees me coming and makes some lings but by then I have 7 zealots with +1 and almost always take down 3rd and do some economical damage. On these games I almost always win with the follow up pressure at 10 minutes give or take, I have blink and +2 done. If that follow up pressure off of 6 gates does not win I have taken my 3rd and from there I transition into lategame. Here is where I run into problems with this build. If I push out to hit the 3rd and they have a couple of spine crawlers and make a huge round of lings, I find it hard to do any significant damage. Attacking into the spines seems to co-ineffective, and usually results in at best an even trade of zealots for lings. If I continue to press any good zerg will soon have roaches out which means my pressure is done and im heading back home. I find that after this scenario happens the zerg seems to have more workers then me and then makes another round hitting like a 60 worker count on 3 bases and I have to try to take my 3rd which I almost always die trying to defend. Once the zerg hits that magic number of drones on 3 bases they just max out on roaches so fast and I am finding it hard to take a 3rd if the first zealot pressure fails so what do you think or suggest? I could upload some replays if you want. Your thoughts and suggestions? | ||
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Lancerx
United States39 Posts
I apologize for my previous rant. It was uncalled for and child. I am just frustrated with the match up. I use this build to try and punish a greedy zerg by keeping them on a even base count. I usually managed to kill his third with the initial seven zealots. However it is the second phase of the build that gives me trouble. If I can't keep him on two bases then I'll just lose the game straight there. I believe my problem is dealing with the mid game roaches. I don't know the proper response. Is it immortals? Sentries? Voidrays? I feel like immortals and sentries will kill my mobility, but honestly I'll take any suggestion. If anyone has any advice on dealing with the mid game roach swarm that would be awesome. Below are two of my most recent PvZ's where I have trouble dealing with mid-game roaches and ends in a lost.( I'm not really that BM, I just have been extremely frustrated with this matchup recently) The only thing I can see is that the zerg out produces me in the mid game, I don't know if this is my fault for having inferior macro, or just the wrong response against the zerg. Any pointers would be much appreciated, and once again I am sincerely sorry for my previous post. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/18756 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/18755 Hi, I will try to help you and at least give you some tips. I am Masters player who plays at pretty high masters right now. I am also just learning this build so take what I say with a grain of salt. I have been winning 90% of my games with this build, no exxageration. I feel happy when I get zerg on ladder lately. I have felt like I had some weak spots using this build but I win so much anyway. I watched your first game vs Sprollus so I will try to give you a few tips. First thing I would say is that you will see allot of zerg who feel like sending lings to your base thinking they can do allot of damage and you handled those lings pretty well but lost a zealot, which is kinda a big deal. Try never to lose a zealot obviously when not necessary. I would recommend when you see a ling run by, just send one zealot to the mineral line and have him stand there. Because of the way the ai work, the lings will have to be manually told to attack probes while the zealot is near. This means that the other player will actually have to spend allot of apm wasted trying to kill probes which you can then just move back. I find this to be super effective dealing with a few lings in the base. Also would like to see you transfer 2 more probes from natural because you had 18 on minerals, really not a big deal but would be extra 40 minerals per minute since you was not at optimal saturation on the natural yet. Also from 440 to 5:40 you didnt make any probes, so like a minute you missed out on probe production and this put your economy behind the zergs, even after you kill his 3rd because when you pushed out you was behind in worker count. Most the time you should be ahead or about tied in worker count when pushing out with zealots. I think about 38 probes is a good number but I think you was at like 29 probes when pushing out. Again these are all small things but they can add up quickly. During you push, I would make a habit of putting your pylon near the wall or in an area you zealots can put there back to it and hold position just in case he had a fair amount of lings in play, this can keep it from being destroyed and could even force him to waste lings trying to kill it. In the open you might lose your probe and pylong much quicker. I would have liked to seen you kite with stalkers and keep warping in stalkers to pressure roaches off the creep. Even if you do not do any damage your presence there will keep him from feeling comfortable droning. His economy was a little better then yours early and I feel that was just because you forgot to make workers when the lings got in your base. You caught up during the pressure but his army supply was 34 to your 10 and that was probably directly related to economy earlier. Make sure to keep 16 probes at least on minerals on both natural and main, you made gas on main and you never transfered probes back, meaning you only had 14 probes on minerals at main and 19 I believe at natural. Around the 11 minute engagement you ended up sitting on like over 1k minerals and both nexus had 100 energy and so allot of energy is being wasted. While the zerg is using inject you have to chrono those gateways and or at least +3 weapons also. I feel like you could have easily used that extra 1k minerals on extra 10 stalkers with non stop chrono usage. At one point around 12 min mark you had 13 stalkers with +2 blink vs 15 roaches with 0/0 upgrades so if you chrono gateways and keep warping in every chance you might just win outright there. Also might be a good idea to just snipe that hatch and lose a couple stalkers then blink out of there. You eventually took a 3rd around 14 minutes, From 11 minutes until 14:27 you never made a probe and so when you took third you could have had full saturation on your 3rd and just fell back and played defensively. At this point, even floating that many minerals he only had 55 drones but he had double your army. If you had kept making probes or, chrono'd out more gateway units you would have been ok I think. If you are going to stay on 6 gateways for that long its good idea to continue to make probes non stop, or transition into another tech because you will have extra money. Would have been great to take that 4th gas around the 9 min mark also. I know these are just small things but they all kinda snowballed and what it ended up in was that by 15 minutes the zerg had double your army size and burrow, so he was able to just wallk up and force cancel on your 3rd. From here he had bigger army and economical advantage. I think if you just address allot of these small things you will do great. You did allot of good things right during this game, and just a bunch of littel mistakes that kind of added up over the course of the first 10-15 minutes. I hope this helps you some, good luck. | ||
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Yuffie
132 Posts
so more details and replays for different situations can be found there. Furthermore, there is a analyisi VOD about it in german. at the bottom of the page. cheers | ||
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Lancerx
United States39 Posts
On April 28 2012 20:59 Yuffie wrote: This Adomnius build is just a slight variation of the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE , so more details and replays for different situations can be found there. Furthermore, there is a analyisi VOD about it in german. at the bottom of the page. cheers Yuffie I been reading your builds and strategy and I find it interesting but I would love to hear a little more detailed explanation of your though process. I see your replays but I would love to hear you talk about a few things about your build. 1. If zerg goes for fast 3rd which so many zerg do when scouting an expansion what is your nomral reaction? 2. If you see a zerg staying on 2 base what do you do and how do you react? Do you pressure, or tech? Do Both maybe? and when should a zerg take his third safely against you using this build? Id love to hear some of your though processes on this. Thanks | ||
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Gimpb
293 Posts
What I've really fallen in love with is how the stalker transition happens at the perfect time. It's early enough that you can be aggressive with them without fear of losing them and the timing is perfect to protect your third. If they make a big attack at your third, I just spam stalkers which are near-impossible to kill at that point in the game so they take big losses while you take little. Even if they get the nexus, the result for me seems to be that they lose the majority of their army, you max shortly thereafter, build 1-2 nexus, and then crush them with your gigantic horde of stalkers and whatever tech follow up you were working on. | ||
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LGDraMa
6 Posts
9 pylon 13 gate 16 pylon (low) 17 nexus 18 zealot (could make this after core vs hatch first) 20 assimilator 22 zealot 24 core (low) 24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map) 26 forge (high or low, depends on map) 26 zealot Warp @100% core 30 zealot (chrono) +1 weapon @100% forge 36 x2 gates 38 pylon 40 twilight council 42 x2 Assimilators Explanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 this is your refined build above m but what confuses me is this below +1 Zealot Timing Now we're getting to the interesting part, our first timing push. You will have 3 zealots now, send them out with a probe. (Probe is optional if you succeeded to hide your initial scout probe near your opponents base) Start +2 as soon as +1 finishes. Start blink after 1st wave of zealots warped. Now you should have 1-2 pylon complete near your enemies base, and 4 zealots warp started at 7:10, your +1 should finish at that moment aswell. You will push with 7 zealots with +1 to his 3rd or natural depending on map. (Note: Killing his natural is possible with this build) Also remember doing a lot of damage is option as well, we are here to force units and hurt his drone production. Retreat if you see roaches. You should always be able to kill his 3rd if you correctly execute this build. says i should have 7 Zealots to attack with 1st set of warp in's but according to your updated build , i can only make 6 zealots since i only have 3 gates + my 3 intials zealots is this a mistake on the revision ? or will it just be 6 zealots instead? | ||
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Sekijitsu
United States47 Posts
I'm also wondering about some other small changes that seem like they could really do wonders. But please tell me, why not start the build like a typical FFE? Especially on certain maps there is just NO reason to not do so. Maybe some require the more standard gateway expand positioning but Cloud Kingdom for example just BEGS for the build to be used like this. I'm only Plat, demoted from Diamond but I can get some replays going of me using it in this fashion. I'm just curious why you don't like it Adonminus? | ||
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- special tactics -
Ukraine39 Posts
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:32 Sekijitsu wrote: Again I must suggest, why not simply start the build like a typical FFE and place your pylon on the low ground. Then, place your gateway, forge, and core at the low ground choke allowing you to create a full wall at around the same time you would with a standard FFE? What is it about this small change that you don't like Adonminus? When I use this build thats how I do it and I just find that on SO many maps it works so much better. Especially maps with small chokes this variation is just so strong. It makes it easier to handle zergling bullshit which you should almost be guaranteed to encounter unless you're down in the metal leagues. There is a typical meta game response where a gateway expand is met by zerg with early ling speed from a 14/14 speedling expand. They often times go all in when the queen pops and make a never ending conga line of zerglings into your base as punishment. Being able to funnel the fuckers into a a single hex spot does wonders. I'm also wondering about some other small changes that seem like they could really do wonders. But please tell me, why not start the build like a typical FFE? Especially on certain maps there is just NO reason to not do so. Maybe some require the more standard gateway expand positioning but Cloud Kingdom for example just BEGS for the build to be used like this. I'm only Plat, demoted from Diamond but I can get some replays going of me using it in this fashion. I'm just curious why you don't like it Adonminus? I can address this. For starters, if you try to wall off like forge FE , but put your pylon on the lowground like that, you're vulnerable to early pools. There's nothing to stop zerglings from just running past and killing you If you try to just wall off the front of your base without a cannon, zerglings can and will knock it down and take a free win from you. Later, you run the risk of severely delaying your zealot timing attack if your initial probe gets killed off since you can't sneak a probe out of your base. I've been doing a variant of this build with a low ground pylon and gateway creating a 1 hex hole for a zealot to plug, then expanding the wall with the forge and cyber to create the 1 hex wall at the natural after I've expanded. It works fairly well. I'm too nervous to open the way Adonminus opens with the forge and gateway on the highground  . | ||
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Yuffie
132 Posts
important is, that you power that 1. gateway with a 2. pylon to be save against 6 pools. @Lancerx 1.) against Stephano builds, i will pressure with 2 zealots, followed by 2 stalkers, keep chronoboostung warp in while mining from 1 gas. (ofc i will not build a forge or canon, since not needed) 5 gates and warpin upgrade will finish at 6:50 and zerg 3. dies. After, i will go for robo and push again with sentry immortal. 2.) if zerg is 2 base, or did open with gas, fast robo is my prefered build, pushing with sentry immo against his 3 and doing prism drop asap at like 8:00. | ||
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Firewalk
France4 Posts
I've been trying this build for a few days now and i really like the style, it's very fun to play, even if i find it kinda hard to execute properly ( i have troubles microing blink stalkers while macroing :p). When my opponent has built his fast third , i am doing well, i often end up killing it and winning the game. However, the problem is the lack of scouting. I've faced many zergs that are not used to this sort of 1gate FE and they play more safely, not taking their third. Then my 7 zealots are useless against his roach/spine natural, and i usually die of roach counter on 2 saturated bases (and i have less workers, still no blink and 6 gates, etc.) What also happened to me is the zerg scouting my initial 3-4 zealots with an overlord on the cliff over the FFE wall-off (for example the Cloud Kingdom cliff), so their reaction is just to make 5-10 roach and go for the kill (and i usually die to this). So what do you recommand? should i scout for a fast third with my scouting probe and only do the push if i see it? And how can i be sure i'm not gonna be roach-allin before i can move out? Thanks! | ||
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Daisu
8 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
While this might seem overly cautious I feel 2-base protoss vs 2-base or late 3rd base zerg is a pretty good situation to be in as protoss so it's worth it. I usually follow-up with a robo and either do 5-6 gate warp prism +1 zealot drop in their main vs 2-base tech ~8:30 before their tech comes out (nobody goes 2-base roach as it is overly safe so they'll only have unupgraded lings to defend unless they get really early evo chambers, which can happen vs infestorling). While this is happening throw down your twilight council back at home and either grab charge or blink depending if they are teching infestors or mutas. Follow-up with templar archives and a 3rd nexus and you should be in pretty good shape even if you didn't do much damage with your drop. vs. a late 3rd hatch I just do an immortal all-in, which seems to be pretty hard to stop as zerg if they didn't get the 3-base econ rolling really early. | ||
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Imperial
Canada7 Posts
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On April 28 2012 02:30 T.BonePickens wrote: I wish this build would actually work, but instead all zerg has to do is create a single roach. One unupgradged roach can solo an entire T3 protoss army no problem. All the zerg has to do is rely on its retarded, broken production and they can never be behind. PvZ is just a ticking time bomb till the zerg gets broodlords, which the zerg doesn't actually need since roaches are the most cost efficient unit in the game, and mutas are invincible. I don't know why any Protoss tries to play PvZ. I thought it was a fun match up. Until I realized that you can't punish a zerg for anything, and they can easily come back from 1 base to three. Sure zerg has the hardest macro mechanic, however thats so every player who chooses zerg doesn't auto win every game. I honestly don't know how fucking +1/+0 ROACHES CAN BEAT +3/+0 BLINK stalkers. But it fucking happens. I'm probably a scrub. I'm probably the worst diamond player in the fucking planet. But every PvZ I play comes down to the zerg massing roaches and than wins no matter what I do. Be it harass, tech, or out marco. I consistently play better than zergs, however their 75mins/25 gas heroes destroy my equal number of 125min/50gas failtards. I have no idea who decided this matchup is fucking balanced, but they should be beheaded for their ignorance. User was warned for this post Starcraft 2 battle net forums is that way.... ----> | ||
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HellRush
Canada68 Posts
I wish this build would actually work, but instead all zerg has to do is create a single roach. One unupgradged roach can solo an entire T3 protoss army no problem. All the zerg has to do is rely on its retarded, broken production and they can never be behind. PvZ is just a ticking time bomb till the zerg gets broodlords, which the zerg doesn't actually need since roaches are the most cost efficient unit in the game, and mutas are invincible. I don't know why any Protoss tries to play PvZ. I thought it was a fun match up. Until I realized that you can't punish a zerg for anything, and they can easily come back from 1 base to three. Sure zerg has the hardest macro mechanic, however thats so every player who chooses zerg doesn't auto win every game. I honestly don't know how fucking +1/+0 ROACHES CAN BEAT +3/+0 BLINK stalkers. But it fucking happens. I'm probably a scrub. I'm probably the worst diamond player in the fucking planet. But every PvZ I play comes down to the zerg massing roaches and than wins no matter what I do. Be it harass, tech, or out marco. I consistently play better than zergs, however their 75mins/25 gas heroes destroy my equal number of 125min/50gas failtards. I have no idea who decided this matchup is fucking balanced, but they should be beheaded for their ignorance. haha ^^ yeah i think pretty sums it up, i think pretty much every protoss player agreees that the matchup is very hard to play right now. I personnally think that a strategy's in RTS should be equaly hard to stop has it is to execute, builds like 4 gate(in the old days), 1-1-1, 3 base max 12 min roach, frustrate me sooo much cause they are build that work most of the time even if you know they are coming. I dont care about an all-in build that the players hides well and then you are took by suprise and then lose, because that is your fault for not actually scouting appropriately, but builds that you know are coming, prepare your best against it and still lose, are just ridiculous. Unless of course your opponent completly out micro you but they usually dont need to when they execute these builds. Feel free to disagree, but in my opinion these type of builds are negative for the game in general. | ||
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