[G] PvZ Adonminus Macro-Aggressive Style

On February 25 2012 20:13 WarBobz wrote:
This is my opinion, yet It does have potential.
Still one question, why +2 not +1 armor after weapons? because zealots will survive more and do more damage than with +2. Why not +2? Because +1 weapons - 2shot lings. Understandable. +1 armor = more armor to tank = more ling kills. Especially good in choke.

On February 25 2012 20:13 WarBobz wrote:
You could've put:
@100 Core: -Warp Gate
@100% forge - Photon Cannon and +1 weapons.
34: 3 gateways. (1-3 on low ground to close wall, others on high ground depending on map)

On February 25 2012 20:27 JoonX wrote:
I was considering this type of opening too since I utterly dislike the current metageme of FFE opening. It just feels like youre setting yourself to be the reactive player. Im the type that wants to dictate the pace of the game. This opening does open up some potential for that. Ill check it out meyself if I can spare some time after my University obligations.

On February 25 2012 21:33 Nyast wrote:
Looks a bit similar to my build. However I'd like more explanations regarding holding early zerglings rush ( especially when he gets gas first and has speed around the 5' mark ), and also banneling busts ( sounds scary, you only have zealots, no sentries, no stalkers ? ).

On February 25 2012 21:52 Yuffie wrote:
only thing I'd ask, what will you do against 2 base baneling bust ? there seems to not be any sentry , and i included 2 sentry into my yufFE to be save against that.

On February 25 2012 21:53 Makuly wrote:
Very interesting build, however it seems you are replicating MC's PvZ style:
Opening with FFE into 4-7g with +1 and DT -> if dealt enough damage @ 3rd, end game with +2 blink stalker push
If not, take 3rd base , place down robos -> immortal /stalker/sentry
Warp prism harassment :zlots/dt
late game: add colossus/ht
He kills most if not all Zergs before they get too many broodlords, hence never seeing him use mothership before.
Protoss is meant to be played like MC: dynamic, aggressive and unpredictable. Not turtling and playing passive all game and getting deathball.

Not cool bro, ZvP is already my worst matchup, this will make it even worse

Nice guide though.

On February 25 2012 21:46 Adonminus wrote:
I think replay 9 can show you how you can hold that kind of pressure. Indeed, such rushes are scary and you need perfect execution to hold them, I was getting forge at 24 earlier but now I get it at 20 since it's hard to hold those with late cannons.

On February 25 2012 23:36 Yuffie wrote:
2 base baneling will hit at 6:00 , you really need 1 sentry i guess :D

On February 26 2012 00:32 Xaldarian wrote:
After lurking on this forum since beta, I found your guide so interesting I wanted to reply. so here goes, what would you do vs a speedling expand like 14/14 or 11 pool? I find that I can't deal with them without a forge. You seem to leave yourself wide open, how do you deal with early pressure OP? plat toss here.

On February 26 2012 01:57 hunger wrote:
Awesome build. Real starcraft is making strong pushes and timings while macroing behind it. Cool stuff, ty for the well written guide and the replays.

edit: Does Zerg go muta in any of the reps? I would like to check those out particularly.

On February 26 2012 04:55 hunger wrote:
Had a game where Zerg just droned up hard on 2 bases and got roaches before his third. This build keeps up in econ if the Zerg goes for a fast third and you do some damage/force lings, but you end up behind on probes and unable to take a third if they just macro up on 2 bases and play safe with quick roaches before going for a third. Have you found this to be true in your games or have you not seen that?

On February 26 2012 04:52 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Can we get some more creative build names?

Tired of people just naming it after themselves.....

On February 26 2012 05:12 Banchan wrote:
I saw this thread on my phone and I was so excited about trying this build and watching the replays

I got home and clicked on your replay vs the top 100 grandmaster

I get a 404 error

I have never been so crushed and disappointed in my life. Please reupload ^^

On February 26 2012 05:29 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
What is the reasoning for placing the core on the low ground?

On February 26 2012 06:29 CodECleaR wrote:
Just on my second try of this build I completely rolled a zerg. Zealot + 1 kills 3rd base, blinkstalkers kill rebuilt 3rd base--it's all so brilliant! Thanks for writing up a guide to it, more replays with dividers amongst the replays categorizing them would be even better! Also a small typo (i think) you say get first zealot at 18 supply, think you mean 16 from what I've seen a lot in your replays

On February 26 2012 15:05 Acidfiend wrote:
Man you are awesome, thanks for this! Only watched the Breathe & Baneling bust replays, the others wouldn't work for me (version unavailable.. maybe because on I'm SEA). Love the BM from your opponents.

I usually have no idea waht to do in PvZ, tried a 3 Gate Sentry Expo but it seems like I always fall behind. Hopefully this is more my style.

On February 26 2012 18:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You really shouldn't name this after yourself, as you're simply using a combination of other builds. The gate/forge opener is questionable, but the bigger concern is that the 4 gate +1 zealot timing is the first thing every zerg will scout and prepare for, along with the +2 blink follow up. If you attack, it's weaker than an 8 gate +2 after an FFE, while either way the zerg can easily drone up, then deny your 3rd forever.

You may pick up wins against players who don't react properly to the opener (not get 3rd hatch, not drone up, etc), but if any of the aggression fails you won't simply be able to take and defend a third except perhaps on maps that zergs should veto anyway where the third base is free.

On February 26 2012 05:17 Adonminus wrote:

The problem with 2 base zerg is that they will be lacking larva unless they build a macro hatch, a macro hatch is fine if you're going to be defensive and put spine crawlers and go something like 2 base muta. However if you go roaches, your army is strong enough to allow you to get that 3rd, so it's pretty useless. My zealot push is so strong that it will kill his natural instead of his 3rd if he goes so. However if he stops the push by getting really really early roaches, then he's forced on the offensive and I will defend it with stalkers. And I really doubt how he can get more drones than me.


Sorry, all names taken. You don't want me to call it the Zealot mega doom attack off 1 gate nexus transitioning invincible blink stalkers into mass nexus protoss op qq? Don't you?



Ow, something bad has happened. When making this I tried an other replay site so it could be uploaded easier and faster. It seems it doesn't work. I'll try to reupload with my old replay site. Don't worry people, it will be fixed soon.

On February 28 2012 01:25 quillian wrote:
Adonminus,
One zerg build I've had trouble with is if he does 14 pool 14 hatch, and when he scouts your expo just immediately rallies slow lings. I think if you cyber first in this case you lose everything on the low ground, and he is an expo up, while you are 1 base with no tech. If you forge first, it's still a close thing.

Do you have any replays vs this?

On February 28 2012 02:33 Eifersuchtig wrote:
Is 6 pool an auto win against this build?

On February 28 2012 02:33 Eifersuchtig wrote:
To defend a 1 base roach allin would you scout& throw down cannons? It hits ~5:00-5:30, much faster than the 2base roach replay hitting at 7:00.

On February 28 2012 02:33 Eifersuchtig wrote:
A few questions about your replay against Breathe:
Why did you never invest in sentries?
Why no void rays in your end game PvZ?
Was taking your 4th gas so late a calculated choice?
He chose to go roach hydra infestor, but what if he chose burrow roach to counter your blink push? To my understanding, if that push fails, you have nothing to follow it up with (read: 0 units in your base after your blink stalkers died).
Are you saving chrono for tech? (180 chrono at home after blink push in Breathe game) Have you experimented with chronoeing probes more and instead choose not to?

On February 28 2012 05:18 ma70 wrote:
Loving the strats that move away from FFE....will try this and variations of it later

On February 26 2012 18:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You really shouldn't name this after yourself, as you're simply using a combination of other builds. The gate/forge opener is questionable, but the bigger concern is that the 4 gate +1 zealot timing is the first thing every zerg will scout and prepare for, along with the +2 blink follow up. If you attack, it's weaker than an 8 gate +2 after an FFE, while either way the zerg can easily drone up, then deny your 3rd forever.

You may pick up wins against players who don't react properly to the opener (not get 3rd hatch, not drone up, etc), but if any of the aggression fails you won't simply be able to take and defend a third except perhaps on maps that zergs should veto anyway where the third base is free.

On February 28 2012 05:39 xsnac wrote:



+1 zealots at 7 minute kill the fast third no problem .

On February 28 2012 07:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:

You don't seem to realize that this exact timing was popular in the past and suddenly every pro stopped doing it because all the zergs figured it out. Some people have still tried it (typically only Europeans) and it has failed every time in recent tournaments. There was even a clever variation by Oz that included cannons with the attack, but that was also shut down handily, by idra no less.

On February 28 2012 08:46 Kaoii wrote:
This may sound like a silly question and I hope it hasn't already been answered, but what do you do if the Zerg does a ling+nydus all-in?

On February 28 2012 08:46 Kaoii wrote:
This may sound like a silly question and I hope it hasn't already been answered, but what do you do if the Zerg does a ling+nydus all-in?

On February 28 2012 09:00 xsnac wrote:


you hold it , even if is not scouted you can hold it with zealots enough you micro well .
play with sound so you hear and instantly move zealots in base and start killing it .
if possible put pylon on area you dont have visibility and if you see zerg keep mining gas after he got 100 . put a probe on patroll .

p.s. you can kill nydus with probes only !

On February 28 2012 09:08 Kaoii wrote:


Ok, you're right you should be able to hold it with Zealots and decent micro, but the problem is with this 7:10 timing you have to move your three zealots out around ~6:00. If the Nydus hits your base in that window, your zealots could be halfway across the map. What then?

On February 28 2012 07:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:

You don't seem to realize that this exact timing was popular in the past and suddenly every pro stopped doing it because all the zergs figured it out. Some people have still tried it (typically only Europeans) and it has failed every time in recent tournaments. There was even a clever variation by Oz that included cannons with the attack, but that was also shut down handily, by idra no less.

You don't seem to realize that this exact timing was popular in the past and suddenly every pro stopped doing it because all the zergs figured it out. Some people have still tried it (typically only Europeans) and it has failed every time in recent tournaments. There was even a clever variation by Oz that included cannons with the attack, but that was also shut down handily, by idra no less.
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On February 29 2012 02:48 Eifersuchtig wrote:
I ran a test game against a high GM zerg partner after I had the bo down and the roaches were out by 7. Asked why and the answer was because since no FFe and the front can be scouted easily (where the gates are added as a wall), then the attack is quite simple to scout and easy to give a calculated response. This allowed 50 drones to 40 probes at the end of the attack. It just shows that against (very) good people, you're giving them the tools to beat you. Normally protoss hides tech or abuses sentries to get an edge, forcing the zerg player to be unsure of how to respond.. but this build lets them counter with a wave of roaches then a wave of speedlings, rally to your base after killing (only 7) zealots, and then a wave of drones, making them be much farther ahead.
Also basic micro on creep (and decently off creep) with roaches makes zealots useless.

On February 25 2012 19:59 ichunddu9 wrote:
nice guide i like it

On March 03 2012 02:23 Mercy13 wrote:
Hi Adonminus, thanks a lot for the guide! It's been working well for me, and I like how it feels less passive than FFE. I played a game this morning, however, where I'm having trouble figuring out why I lost and I'm hoping you can check it out:

http://replayfu.com/download/fNmWht

I'm still working on my execution of the build so my first attack was delayed a bit but I don't think this made a huge difference. The zerg turtled on two bases w/ spines for a while, and both timing attacks were absolutely crushed (the blink stalkers before I even got close to his base tt ).

Two things I think I could have done: (1) Gotten a quick robo once I realized he had early roaches or (2) not bothered to attack at all when he was turtling like that, and just built up a collosus count.

If you have time to check out the replay I'd really appreciate it, thanks again!

On March 07 2012 13:14 WarpTV wrote:
So how do you get your attack to hit at 710?

On March 08 2012 15:28 PrinceVegeta wrote:
Hello. I am a high master protoss. This build has been working well for me on ladder, however I do find some problems with the blink follow up. Most games I am able to snipe the third hatch or do significant econ damage, but against the highest level zerg opponents, the blink stalker timing does not kill them. When I move out with the 12-18 stalkers, should I be looking to do damage and get away with blink while securing a 3rd, or just look to finish them off. (ie: chroning gates, not adding robo, not teching +3). Here are two replays vs coLGoswer and TSLHyuN. Please guys take a look at them and let me know what you think. I feel that I should have played defensively after I sniped that hatch, or merely use the stalkers for aggression but not suicide my army.
http://drop.sc/128341 <-- vs coLgoswer
http://drop.sc/128342 <-- vs TSLHyuN

On February 25 2012 20:34 Adonminus wrote:

I already mentioned it, it's even underlined, +2 weapon allows blink stalkers to 3 shot lings instead of 4 shotting them. Blink already gives stalkers enough survivability.

On March 20 2012 16:23 NoisyNinja wrote:
Build sucks to be honest. All zerg has to do is 2 base roach speedling herp derp push at 8 minutes and a-move. Then, you lose

On March 19 2012 16:17 kaluro wrote:
That screenshot of the 7 zealot attack, you were close position on the one map that has the closest position of any map ever released.
Therefore your attack timing is a best case scenario.

What if you happen to be at for example tal'darim cross positions? We'd be adding like 20-30 seconds to your timing attack, at which ling speed would likely be done and lings would already be out and zerg would have had plenty of time to respond.

Every zerg nowadays will have roaches out by 8 min 20 seconds. If you hit at 7:30-7-50 with your zealots, lings will stall long enough for roaches to clean the mess up.

Now, your timing attack does work but only on certain maps with certain close positions and small travel times. Unless you already have a pylon in place but then youd have 4 zealots with the other 3 being delayed.



I'm just going to assume that zerg does not just sit around not upgrading armor, but instead keeps his armor in check.
Other than the stephano roach style, double upgrade ling/infestor is becoming increasingly popular.

On March 20 2012 19:54 Roynalf wrote:

So you think that you shouldnt scout or build wall or cannons. With that logic every build would lose to roaches.

On March 21 2012 03:13 NoisyNinja wrote:

I gave this build a fair shot and did everything it says. All zerg had to do was a 2 base roach all in

On March 21 2012 03:13 NoisyNinja wrote:

I gave this build a fair shot and did everything it says. All zerg had to do was a 2 base roach all in

On March 21 2012 05:31 InVerno wrote:
Well, its not a bad build at all.. expecially the transition and the later timing push.. No pros use it, so probably the propagation of this build will be determined in how much time this thread is up on the strategy section, but at least its a goody try and i really appreciate the effort. Well, i've tryed like ten times, and the thing i really dont like is.. well its like honey for allins, im not complaining about losses, but only the medium duration of a PvZ if i do this build..its kinda frustrating, i hope more people will do it, so zerg players will learn how to macro respond instead of a 19dronesbullshitallin. Goodjob anyway.

On March 21 2012 04:08 Roynalf wrote:

Let me guess, you tried it once, you got allined, you didnt adapt or you did bad job with scouting and you ended up losing

On March 21 2012 11:36 NoisyNinja wrote:


No. Did it 10 times, and 7 were losses. Yes, a few were sloppy, but without forcefields, Zerg can easily overrun an early game protoss. Simple as that.

On March 21 2012 07:40 Nyast wrote:
I have a variation of that build that hits at 7'20 with 4 zealots and 4 stalkers; it's basically a 4 gate on 2 nexii, out of a 1 gate FE ( there's also a zealot, a stalker and a sentry in the early stage for scouting and defense ). The negative side is that there's no forge or +1 on the horizon. I'm wondering what is best: pressure with 7 zealots +1, or pressure with 4 zealots and 4 stalkers without upgrades ? I can also do 4 zealots, 3 stalkers and a sentry, but I'm not sure a single FF helps

I really like those 1 gate FE builds with early pressure. They're not as economic as FFE of course, but if the timing is so early, Zerg can't drone too fast either, and if he takes a third he auto loses it.

On March 21 2012 22:31 Thiole wrote:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE#Replays
this build is identical to this

On March 23 2012 22:43 da_head wrote:
@OP: Any update on the revised build?

On March 25 2012 01:48 Thiole wrote:
can you do stargate play without doing collosi with this build, like double stargate into carrier play?

On March 25 2012 02:24 Adonminus wrote:

Yes I think it's possible to do this +1 4 gate pressure, then get faster gases and get 2 stargates. Then you can follow the stalkerless PvZ strategy and eventually get carriers: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300535

On March 21 2012 09:49 TheHau wrote:
If you are going this build, what do you do against a Zerg that just ling all ins you? I have lost quite a few game recently where I send out my 3 zeals and a probe only to get surronded in the middle of the map by mass ling at like 6 min and then they are into my natural before I have time to get any cannons up or enough zeals to stop them.

On March 25 2012 18:00 Aterons_toss wrote:
First thing first i don't like the opening, if the zerg scouts ( which most zergs don't do right now ) he can just make lings with the first 5-6 larva after pool and you won't have a cannon to def in time, i believe, not to mention if he goes 14/14, im not sure about it but that's what it seems like to me.
Ignoring the opening, i don't like the build.
Its good for your average joe, hell it can work vs a gm zerg easy peze but its a "dieing bred" with the +1 zealot timing and the +2 blink stalker, as stephano and recently other zergs have shown, +1 zealot timing is bad, its oky to mix it in but it can be stopped easily if the zerg knows what to do, and considering how many people to those timings atm id say its pretty bad to have your build include it.
The +2 blink stalker pushes, again, are not straight out "bad" but simply figure out,zergs figured out how to deal with blink timing pushes, and guess what, the way to stop a push is the same as the way to stop a late blink expand, make fucking units.
Basically the zerg has to figure out you are going for a +1 lot push, which is so common nowadays that its not hard to guess for zerg, make enough roaches to hold it and than simply out micro your and rofl stomp the blinkstalker push while teching to infestor and simply killing you if you try to get a 3rd up due to numeric advantage.
Again, its not straight up bad, but in the current meta game its not very innovative and its not "that good"

On March 29 2012 02:58 Markwerf wrote:
I just don't see this opening being viable at all..
If you're going for a forge and cannon to expo it makes no sense to add in a gate first, you're only being unsafe or forcing lots of probe cuts. The minor timing advantage you get from it is just not worth it

On March 30 2012 13:07 furerkip wrote:
How do you deal if they do fast mutas on 2 base? Should the zealot +1 pressure be good enough to stop that, or what?

On March 30 2012 13:23 Adonminus wrote:

When going mutas on 2 bases, he'll have to use lings and spine crawlers and zealots will deal lots of damage to those lings and blink stalkers won't let his mutas deal damage so going 2 base mutas isn't good vs this build. However 3 base mutas with roaches before to defend can be viable.

On March 30 2012 15:29 Skyro wrote:


Just to add that a lot of zergs like to just make a gazillion spines at their natural while fast teching to mutas off 2-base. You can easily substitute a robo for a twilight and +1 armor for +2 weapons in this scenario and warp in his main. 1/1 zealots will rip through unupgraded lings like nobody's business.

On March 30 2012 22:00 matrius wrote:
Skyro, good point. Now, I see you mention substitution of robo for twilight which, according to the BO, is to come at 36 supply IIRC. Does that timing work well if you don't see a 3rd by then? If so, I might start to do that - no third by 36 supply, then get a robo...

Do you have a replay you could share?

Thanks!

On March 31 2012 02:33 Skyro wrote:

I don't really save my replays but yes you can substitute it at that timing and it should line up nicely with +1 armor if you chrono boost it non-stop. Basically if I see no third by 5m then I start chrono'ing +1 weapons and +1 armor non-stop. +1 armor should finish around 8:40-8:50 in that case, which lines up roughly if you throw down your robo ~6:30. The only adjustment after that I make is delay the additional gasses until after I throw down 3 additional gates ~7:20-7:30, then add 3 gasses and my twilight after that. I've found this to be a pretty effective vs 2-base tech since 99% of the time zerg will go mutaling or infestorling, both which are this is very strong against. Even if you can't kill them outright you usually can do enough damage to win later (i.e. hatch snipe), so then transition as necessary (blink stalkers vs mutaling or chargelot/archon vs infestorling).

Also vs. 2-base tech don't just sacrifice your initial 3-4 zealots into what is likely a well-defended front at their natural. Just poke around and do what damage you can but try to save your zealots since they will add a lot of punch to your drop since you can load them with your prism (i.e. 10 zealots in their main instead of 6 @ ~8:40).

On March 31 2012 03:10 matrius wrote:
Your replays are autosaved, that makes no sense.

Ya, I think that 10 zealots in their main without muties there yet would do it. 8:40 should be good, still have a good 60 seconds to do some serious damage.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Yes the game auto-saves replays but automatically deletes them after a while I believe (default setting). I may or may not have a replay I have no idea. It's not like I'm meeting 2-base tech zergs every game as it is relatively rare compared to fast 3rd builds.

On March 31 2012 03:36 matrius wrote:
Ya, it is rare, thats why I was interested

I think it saves the last 24 or so, so no probs!

Cheers,

Mark

9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 Assimilators

Explanations and notes:
-Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut
-Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga).
-Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings.
-Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro.
-You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro.
-Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd)
-Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes.
-I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council.

Here's a replay as an example:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008

On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:


Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future.

On March 31 2012 20:47 Thiole wrote:
how do you go about scouting a 6pool with this, it seems you dont leave youre base until 2:40, which wont beable to see it in time

On March 31 2012 21:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Pretty sure with such little gas this build doesn't have any response to a 2-3 hatch baneling all-in, particularly because it easily overwhelms the zealot poke. I suppose it's one of the less common all-ins in the matchup, but it's a strong build that zenio used quite a bit at a recent mlg and the 7 minute zealot pressures are really bad against it in particular. I'm not really sure how a protoss is supposed to scout that or deal with it without sentries.

On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:
Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future.

On March 31 2012 21:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Pretty sure with such little gas this build doesn't have any response to a 2-3 hatch baneling all-in, particularly because it easily overwhelms the zealot poke. I suppose it's one of the less common all-ins in the matchup, but it's a strong build that zenio used quite a bit at a recent mlg and the 7 minute zealot pressures are really bad against it in particular. I'm not really sure how a protoss is supposed to scout that or deal with it without sentries.

On March 31 2012 22:49 Thiole wrote:
you scout him getting more then 100 gas, if you do, you can make some extra cannons, since the response is the same for roach allins or banes

On April 01 2012 00:05 matrius wrote:
OK, I just looked at your replay, and then compared it to my game on Shakuras P. where I was 6 pooled. Your first zealot pops out at 3:45, and his 6 zerglings were at my ramp at 3:00, a full 45 seconds earlier. 2 more zerglings followed a little while afterwards, and they killed my pylon before my zealot popped, and then killed my 16 probes without a problem.

When you leave to scout at 2:40, that isn't enough time to see the zerglings coming on anything but (possibly) a 2 position map, because if you goto the wrong base, you definitely won't see them.

On April 01 2012 01:00 Adonminus wrote:

The timings you provided are indeed correct, however you're forgetting one thing. You can stop mining for a whole minute since once you cancel the nexus you get 325 minerals which can power you for a whole minute. Now you pull probes and don't let the lings kill the pylon, add a 2nd pylon in case your pylon is on low hp, keep chronoing zealots until you defend the 6 pool. Remember to micro the probes correctly to limit their loses.

On April 01 2012 05:11 matrius wrote:
Well, I've been having a lot of trouble lately, here is a replay against a master player, really had a tough time when he didn't go for a fast third...

http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Ayreon_vs_(P)Matrius/19013

I'm assuming that its just macro/lack of tech, but I feel like I couldn't tech up because of the thread of muties...

suggestions welcome.

thanks

On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:


Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future.

On April 01 2012 06:57 Skyro wrote:


-I like the 16 Pylon then 17 Nexus. Small, but nice adjustment (makes full use of the 3rd chrono on Probes too which I like).
-2-base mass speedling is a threat to that build order on maps where there's no ramp you can wall-off at your natural since you get such a late cannon, but you should be able to make a cannon instead of the 4th Zealot and be ok I think (may depend on the rush distance not sure exactly). Regardless though I do think it is safer to make a cannon first then the 4th zealot as that would make the build safer and would not mess with any of your timings (4th Zealot should still pop out in time before you move out).

On April 01 2012 07:26 Thiole wrote:

why not before 3rd if he 14/14s, youre still ahead, and youre a bit safer vs gas play?

On April 01 2012 07:38 Skyro wrote:


Are you asking me why not before cannon before 3rd Zealot? It's because the forge in his revised build order is not done at that time. It appears so far to me that you only need cannon(s) early for mass speedlings or baneling bust which you should have up in time to defend if zerg opened with any expand before gas build.

From a 14/14 gas first opening ling speed finishes ~5m. Thus if you see scout a 14/14 opening by zerg I'd probably cut Probes @ 20 to get a forge up (before core) asap to have a cannon up to defend in time.

On April 01 2012 08:46 Thiole wrote:

that was what i was getting at, forge before core if he goes gas before expand?

On April 01 2012 09:34 Skyro wrote:


That is what I currently do. Not sure what OP does however. If you go forge before core @ 20 supply you throw it down @ 3:35 with a cannon done @ 5 mins.

On April 01 2012 07:41 Peterblue wrote:
I am curious why you would choose to do the Blink transition rather than go VR directly after CC finishes. The only way he is going to be able to stop your Zeal timing is with Roaches, and if he dumps a lot into them he would be able to kill you straight off. With a VR you would be able to stop him from pressuring with Roaches, kill some OLs, harass and it would allow you to grab a 3rd by the 8:00 minute mark. Even if worst case scenario he goes mutalisks you will be up 3 bases to 2 and can simply cannon up a ton and transition into Blink Colossi.

I am probably missing something. Can you explain to me the reasoning?

On April 02 2012 22:22 matrius wrote:
Hi,

I'm very interested in the answer for this, as recently I've played a few games that involved getting overrun by roach spam, once with a nydus worm kicked in just for laughs.

Thanks,

Mark

On April 02 2012 23:54 ma70 wrote:
I still really like this build because its basically "Sentryless". I wonder if there are more ways to go without Sentries in PvZ...

And about 2 base plays, mostly they have no choice but to get mutalisks or infestors, else they will be behind. In this case you get the 4th gas early and use the extra gas on a stargate (you don't skip stalkers), chrono out a phoenix and scout the enemy, if you see mutas keep making phoenixes, if you see infestors continue your play and try to secure a 3rd while delaying the zerg's 4rd, while you can use the stargate for the mothership transition later in the game.

On April 05 2012 02:35 Thiole wrote:
unless you start double stargate dont bother, youll be too far behind in phoenix count, just stick with templar and storm and blink stalkers, in fact, if you see mutas, just cannon up like 6 per base, then just go fuckin kill em

On April 06 2012 07:17 ZeromuS wrote:
Im currently watching orb learn how to do this build and the issue of defending an early pool (6,7 for example) came up. You don't seem to include a response to this strat in the op. I want to try to learn this but I would like to know how to hold an early pool before I make this my more standard PvZ opening personally. It happens to me in about 1/4 of my PvZs on ladder where I am (high diamond, low master) and would hate to auto lose if there isn't a good response with your build.

On April 06 2012 07:17 ZeromuS wrote:
Im currently watching orb learn how to do this build and the issue of defending an early pool (6,7 for example) came up. You don't seem to include a response to this strat in the op. I want to try to learn this but I would like to know how to hold an early pool before I make this my more standard PvZ opening personally. It happens to me in about 1/4 of my PvZs on ladder where I am (high diamond, low master) and would hate to auto lose if there isn't a good response with your build.

On April 10 2012 02:42 matrius wrote:
I just played a game where I attacked somewhere around 8min (approximately) and took out his third (which was actually his natural because I briefly blocked his natural and then he created his 2nd hatch at his normal 3rd base, and THEN put down a 3rd hatch at his natural). However, I saw a lot of larva used up for what ended up being zerglings. I got the hatchery before they could spawn, but then was overrun. OK, np, I was still ahead and it was 2 base to 2 base at this point. I decided to be aggressive and try to followup with zealots and some stalkers. The followup was not successful, and I don't think it would have been successful even if I had blink. It appears to me to bea waste of resources because of all the zerglings he had created, and some roaches to compliment, and he easily repelled the followup. The rest of the game is irrelevant, but always happy to hear critique if you would like... btw - I already know that I failed to get blink and +2, just my lack of skillz...

http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)SkrilLeX_vs_(P)Matrius/19174

So, my question is - if I know there are a lot of zerglings about, does that make the followup less effective in general? I always seem to have more success when I followup later on with immortals/sentry...

Macro game, skipping zealot timing due to lots of early speedlings. Great example of standard macro game with this build, with robo immortals with some colossus and then adding stargate for potential lategame mothership.

On April 11 2012 03:48 matrius wrote:
btw - can you include a rep or two where you lose? Ideally when you follow the strat but hit a snag. I find that lots can be learned from losses as well...

Thanks!

On April 11 2012 04:02 Adonminus wrote:

I lose from time to time to late game broodlords when he deals damage to me midgame while I doing pressure him back enough and allow him to macro up. That's the reason I played some games trying out the carrier late game transition. I don't lose a lot of PvZs though. My weakest match up is actually PvT with all the irony, perhaps it's just because I'm high master and terran can actually micro there. My PvP is also great, but I lose to cheeses/all inns from time to time when I'm tired.

Here's a fail game of me trying carriers:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)FoPǂSpirit_vs_(P)NOMAdonminus/19197

My main mistakes there are:
-Poor management against pressure, taking economical losses.
-Lack of archons and high templars to splash and kill corruptors defending the carriers.

Edit: Note that I use an early stargate when I see zerg 2 basing, this way I can scout him and see if he goes mutalisk or infestors. Then I can use phoenix to gain high ground vision and pressure him really easily on close air on maps like Shakuras, Antiga, Metalopolis, Shattered etc...

On April 11 2012 20:27 Adonminus wrote:
1st placement match, got slivko as my opponent. Check this game out:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)NOMAdonminus_vs_(Z)roxkisSlivko/19205

On April 12 2012 17:22 huggab0y wrote:
just got 6pooled with this build, what is the best response to that? build a forge + cannon in mineral line? thanks

On April 12 2012 09:37 Mercy13 wrote:


Very exciting game : )

Any idea how you could have pulled off the win? Collosus mb once you saw the infestors? Faster third? He was extremely aggressive so I doubt you would have been successful putting on counter pressure...

Thanks for keeping up with this thread, I like this build a lot and you have been a great help!

On April 14 2012 15:24 benjaminethanlim wrote:
Firstly, thanks for writing such a good and comprehensive guide. it has really helped my PvZ alos.
i'm a lowly plat toss, and many zergs at my level find it hard to play against the initial +1 zealot push.

tips to any brotoss who wants to try this. (please remember im only low plat)
if it's a map like shakuras where it is easy to do a complete wall off on the natural's ramp, going gate-core-forge may not be a problem. I've been practicing this build with a friend who plays Z. i notice that when he goes 14-14, zergling numbers can be abit difficult to deal with, even if u use ur first 2 lots.what i suggest would be to get your forge before your core. Yes, it means that lots wont hit at the nice 7.30 timing. but you are alot safer.

i think the best think about this build is the initial +1 timing. it's great for sniping the third. even if you realize that the zerg has roaches, warp in 3-4 stalkers to deal with them. it is very possible with the help from the lots.

what the author says about the game ending at 13-14 mins is really quite true. blink stalkers + a few lots really do work very well at that timing.

so yup ! thanks for the guide. i use to be stomped over by Zs. now at least i have a good strat that is easy to execute.

On April 12 2012 23:39 Adonminus wrote:

I think walling the 3rd better, using more sentries for forcefields, and try to build the maximum units possible while getting minimal losses. I also let him get alot of infestors should have tried to snipe some with stalkers. Colossus is a wise choice too but was a bit expensive for me at that time, needed faster defense so not sure. Also I was a bit nervous, so I did some missmicros and slow reactions.


On the 6 pool, question as I explained previously. You'll have about 400 mineral when 6 pool hits right before you're supposed to start expo. Pull all probes from mineral and defend the pylon powering the gateway until a zealot is out, build a forge to make a wall at your ramp and a pylon in case he kills the one you have. You should successfully stop a 6 pool like that once you get enough zealots. I don't have a replay though.

On April 14 2012 16:02 Skyro wrote:
Well I've been using your build for a bit now and I have absolutely no clue why you opt to go 6 gate 3 gas with your blink stalker push instead of 7 gate 4 gas push and mix in sentries. It makes the push timing incredibly stronger while also making your build safer overall and sets you up better to transition into tech if you choose not to push out with your stalkers. And it doesn't even delay the push significantly. Watching your game vs slivko made me cringe at your complete non-usage of sentries the whole game.

Also in that slivko game you would've won if you didn't push out with your blink stalker timing and just teched to colossi. Your build transitions into an incredibly strong +3 weapons colossi timing due to your fast weapon upgrades. IMO what happens during your initial zealot pressure should dictate how you follow-up. If you snipe the 3rd hatchery I believe the colossus timing would net you a lot more victories in the long run. But even if you do go for the blink stalker push I think you would also be better off really going more "all-in" with it, e.g. 7-gates 4 gas sentry variant like I suggested above. IMO it's just not worth half-assing these types of pushes because if you get deflected you are in such a rough spot, i.e. it is hard to get a 3rd set up after you get your push deflected.

I also think if your goal is to play a macro game then I think it's better for you to set up your 3rd earlier either ASAP after your zealot pressure ends or by faking your zealot pressure by posturing on the map and then falling back for a 6:30-ish 3rd.

On April 15 2012 03:48 Adonminus wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, I always appreciate constructive criticism on how to improve. I would like to note that it is possible to take a 3rd after zealot pressure when you see no pressure coming from him. I never tried 7 gate with this so I'll consider trying it out.

On April 17 2012 03:50 matrius wrote:
OK, I've been playing around with making some build orders in the same vein as the original one and the updated one that you posted, in hope to add something to the conversation. You make probes almost constantly, but there is up to 30 seconds idle time over the entire build. I personally like the first one better due to the photon cannon and sentry. I hope you like them! I have a feeling that the build orders would be difficult to do perfectly, but anyway, there you go...

Thanks again to Adonminus for the inspiration, and sharing of his approach with us in the first place!

#1 (this one is like the original, includes a photon cannon and also a sentry for safety)
9 Pylon
11 Chrono Nexus
12 Chrono Nexus
13 Forge
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
16 Chrono Nexus
18 Photon Cannon
19 Gateway
20 Nexus
22 Cybernetics Core
22 Ground Weapons 1
26 3*Gateway
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Zealot
30 Pylon
30 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Sentry
34 Pylon
36 Chrono Cybernetics Core
36 3*Stalker
44 Chrono Cybernetics Core
44 Pylon
46 Zealot
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
49 Robotics Facility
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
51 4*Zealot

Zealots warp in at 7:20 if you get 5 chrono's on the core, leaving you with 6 zealots, 3 stalkers and 1 sentry at 7:20 - you can obviously trade stalkers for zealots if you prefer.

#2 (like the updated build order from OP, no photon cannon, no sentry and less gas overall)
6 3*Probe
9 Pylon
9 2*Probe
11 Chrono Nexus
11 Probe
12 Chrono Nexus
12 Probe
13 Gateway
13 3*Probe
16 Pylon
16 2*Probe
18 Zealot
20 Assimilator
20 Probe
21 Nexus
21 Move Three Probes To Gas
21 2*Probe
23 Cybernetics Core
23 Probe
24 Forge
24 Probe
25 Pylon
25 Probe
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Probe
27 Ground Weapons 1
27 2*Probe
29 Chrono Forge
29 Probe
30 3*Gateway
30 Zealot
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 2*Probe
34 Chrono Cybernetics Core
34 Wait 1s
34 Probe
35 Zealot
37 Probe
38 Pylon
38 Probe
39 Stalker
41 Chrono Forge
41 2*Probe
43 2*Zealot
47 Probe
48 Wait 1s
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Probe
49 Chrono Forge
49 Probe
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
50 Probe
51 Chrono Gateway
51 3*Stalker

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
7:03.18: 577M 66G 10E 57/ 60S
Income: 1412M 114G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 5 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Forge 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 37 Probe 5 Zealot 4 Stalker
Upgrades: Ground Weapons 1 Warp Gate Transformation