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On April 17 2012 03:50 matrius wrote:
OK, I've been playing around with making some build orders in the same vein as the original one and the updated one that you posted, in hope to add something to the conversation. You make probes almost constantly, but there is up to 30 seconds idle time over the entire build. I personally like the first one better due to the photon cannon and sentry. I hope you like them! I have a feeling that the build orders would be difficult to do perfectly, but anyway, there you go...
Thanks again to Adonminus for the inspiration, and sharing of his approach with us in the first place!
#1 (this one is like the original, includes a photon cannon and also a sentry for safety)
9 Pylon
11 Chrono Nexus
12 Chrono Nexus
13 Forge
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
16 Chrono Nexus
18 Photon Cannon
19 Gateway
20 Nexus
22 Cybernetics Core
22 Ground Weapons 1
26 3*Gateway
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Zealot
30 Pylon
30 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Sentry
34 Pylon
36 Chrono Cybernetics Core
36 3*Stalker
44 Chrono Cybernetics Core
44 Pylon
46 Zealot
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
49 Robotics Facility
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
51 4*Zealot
Zealots warp in at 7:20 if you get 5 chrono's on the core, leaving you with 6 zealots, 3 stalkers and 1 sentry at 7:20 - you can obviously trade stalkers for zealots if you prefer.
#2 (like the updated build order from OP, no photon cannon, no sentry and less gas overall)
6 3*Probe
9 Pylon
9 2*Probe
11 Chrono Nexus
11 Probe
12 Chrono Nexus
12 Probe
13 Gateway
13 3*Probe
16 Pylon
16 2*Probe
18 Zealot
20 Assimilator
20 Probe
21 Nexus
21 Move Three Probes To Gas
21 2*Probe
23 Cybernetics Core
23 Probe
24 Forge
24 Probe
25 Pylon
25 Probe
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Probe
27 Ground Weapons 1
27 2*Probe
29 Chrono Forge
29 Probe
30 3*Gateway
30 Zealot
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 2*Probe
34 Chrono Cybernetics Core
34 Wait 1s
34 Probe
35 Zealot
37 Probe
38 Pylon
38 Probe
39 Stalker
41 Chrono Forge
41 2*Probe
43 2*Zealot
47 Probe
48 Wait 1s
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Probe
49 Chrono Forge
49 Probe
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
50 Probe
51 Chrono Gateway
51 3*Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
7:03.18: 577M 66G 10E 57/ 60S
Income: 1412M 114G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 5 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Forge 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 37 Probe 5 Zealot 4 Stalker
Upgrades: Ground Weapons 1 Warp Gate Transformation
the program you are using implies there is no travel time or scout, and you wont have enough zealots to deal with normal ling pressure, its good in theory though
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Well, I did put in scouting @ 3min, so you can check for natural, and third before metabolic boost kicks in. You are right, you don't have a lot of zealots at start, but 2 at 6 min can do the trick. Again, this build is really for when the zerg opponent goes for 3 hatches early in the game, so you won't need a lot of initial units. If you don't see a third, then you should change plans.
A baneling all in would be good against this I think, and the protoss would have to rely on sim city and cannons to hold off.
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On April 19 2012 11:32 Thiole wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:50 matrius wrote:
OK, I've been playing around with making some build orders in the same vein as the original one and the updated one that you posted, in hope to add something to the conversation. You make probes almost constantly, but there is up to 30 seconds idle time over the entire build. I personally like the first one better due to the photon cannon and sentry. I hope you like them! I have a feeling that the build orders would be difficult to do perfectly, but anyway, there you go...
Thanks again to Adonminus for the inspiration, and sharing of his approach with us in the first place!
#1 (this one is like the original, includes a photon cannon and also a sentry for safety)
9 Pylon
11 Chrono Nexus
12 Chrono Nexus
13 Forge
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
16 Chrono Nexus
18 Photon Cannon
19 Gateway
20 Nexus
22 Cybernetics Core
22 Ground Weapons 1
26 3*Gateway
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Zealot
30 Pylon
30 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Sentry
34 Pylon
36 Chrono Cybernetics Core
36 3*Stalker
44 Chrono Cybernetics Core
44 Pylon
46 Zealot
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
49 Robotics Facility
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
51 4*Zealot
Zealots warp in at 7:20 if you get 5 chrono's on the core, leaving you with 6 zealots, 3 stalkers and 1 sentry at 7:20 - you can obviously trade stalkers for zealots if you prefer.
#2 (like the updated build order from OP, no photon cannon, no sentry and less gas overall)
6 3*Probe
9 Pylon
9 2*Probe
11 Chrono Nexus
11 Probe
12 Chrono Nexus
12 Probe
13 Gateway
13 3*Probe
16 Pylon
16 2*Probe
18 Zealot
20 Assimilator
20 Probe
21 Nexus
21 Move Three Probes To Gas
21 2*Probe
23 Cybernetics Core
23 Probe
24 Forge
24 Probe
25 Pylon
25 Probe
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Probe
27 Ground Weapons 1
27 2*Probe
29 Chrono Forge
29 Probe
30 3*Gateway
30 Zealot
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 2*Probe
34 Chrono Cybernetics Core
34 Wait 1s
34 Probe
35 Zealot
37 Probe
38 Pylon
38 Probe
39 Stalker
41 Chrono Forge
41 2*Probe
43 2*Zealot
47 Probe
48 Wait 1s
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Probe
49 Chrono Forge
49 Probe
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
50 Probe
51 Chrono Gateway
51 3*Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
7:03.18: 577M 66G 10E 57/ 60S
Income: 1412M 114G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 5 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Forge 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 37 Probe 5 Zealot 4 Stalker
Upgrades: Ground Weapons 1 Warp Gate Transformation the program you are using implies there is no travel time or scout, and you wont have enough zealots to deal with normal ling pressure, its good in theory though
This would be a lot clearer if it were written in timing instead of supply, but since at one point you are making 2 zealots from gateways, I'm guessing you can delay a couple gateways to make the zealots earlier and still have them up for the warpgate finishing. I'm not sure, but I think I saw Tails doing this on his stream last night. I saw him attack at one point with only 1 gas using 4-5 zealots and 4-5 stalkers, but I wasn't looking at the game clock. Now, that I think back, his might have hit much later though - I think he had 5 gates.
The small amount of gas available in this build and others like it is scary, though. If he's going for 2-base pressure instead of fast 3-base, you'll probably only have enough gas for 2 sentries or a sentry and 2 stalkers. Typically, sentries are key in avoiding large damage during these 2-base pushes.
Edit: Have you tried to do this in game - or is this purely conjecture assuming the program is setup right?
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what do you do vs 3 hatch before pool with this, do u play normally? Im curious because i think it should be good vs your build since you cant block the hatch and I dont think you can punish it.
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How do I stop heavy ling pressure from 6-10 pool openings?
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On April 24 2012 03:26 wullull wrote:
How do I stop heavy ling pressure from 6-10 pool openings?
I would suggest walling off the top of your ramp when you see it, and chrono zealots. If your nexus is just started you can cancel right away or leave it till the last second to stall if they attack it.
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On April 24 2012 09:42 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:26 wullull wrote:
How do I stop heavy ling pressure from 6-10 pool openings? I would suggest walling off the top of your ramp when you see it, and chrono zealots. If your nexus is just started you can cancel right away or leave it till the last second to stall if they attack it.
Some zergs like to 10 pool and only make 2 lings and then macro up. If you can get a count of how many lings they make you can hold a 10 pool if they only make 2 lings.
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1 Gas for this long isn't a problem, but you do need to scout and add cannons if you are being all in'd, like always.
Yes, I've used this build in a game, but never perfectly. I've always been like 30 seconds behind, but mostly just due to poor multitasking.
On April 20 2012 00:01 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 11:32 Thiole wrote:On April 17 2012 03:50 matrius wrote:
OK, I've been playing around with making some build orders in the same vein as the original one and the updated one that you posted, in hope to add something to the conversation. You make probes almost constantly, but there is up to 30 seconds idle time over the entire build. I personally like the first one better due to the photon cannon and sentry. I hope you like them! I have a feeling that the build orders would be difficult to do perfectly, but anyway, there you go...
Thanks again to Adonminus for the inspiration, and sharing of his approach with us in the first place!
#1 (this one is like the original, includes a photon cannon and also a sentry for safety)
9 Pylon
11 Chrono Nexus
12 Chrono Nexus
13 Forge
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
16 Chrono Nexus
18 Photon Cannon
19 Gateway
20 Nexus
22 Cybernetics Core
22 Ground Weapons 1
26 3*Gateway
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Zealot
30 Pylon
30 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 Sentry
34 Pylon
36 Chrono Cybernetics Core
36 3*Stalker
44 Chrono Cybernetics Core
44 Pylon
46 Zealot
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
49 Robotics Facility
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
51 4*Zealot
Zealots warp in at 7:20 if you get 5 chrono's on the core, leaving you with 6 zealots, 3 stalkers and 1 sentry at 7:20 - you can obviously trade stalkers for zealots if you prefer.
#2 (like the updated build order from OP, no photon cannon, no sentry and less gas overall)
6 3*Probe
9 Pylon
9 2*Probe
11 Chrono Nexus
11 Probe
12 Chrono Nexus
12 Probe
13 Gateway
13 3*Probe
16 Pylon
16 2*Probe
18 Zealot
20 Assimilator
20 Probe
21 Nexus
21 Move Three Probes To Gas
21 2*Probe
23 Cybernetics Core
23 Probe
24 Forge
24 Probe
25 Pylon
25 Probe
26 Warp Gate Transformation
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Probe
27 Ground Weapons 1
27 2*Probe
29 Chrono Forge
29 Probe
30 3*Gateway
30 Zealot
32 Chrono Cybernetics Core
32 2*Probe
34 Chrono Cybernetics Core
34 Wait 1s
34 Probe
35 Zealot
37 Probe
38 Pylon
38 Probe
39 Stalker
41 Chrono Forge
41 2*Probe
43 2*Zealot
47 Probe
48 Wait 1s
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Pylon
48 Chrono Gateway
48 Probe
49 Chrono Forge
49 Probe
50 4*Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
50 Probe
51 Chrono Gateway
51 3*Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
7:03.18: 577M 66G 10E 57/ 60S
Income: 1412M 114G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 5 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Forge 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 37 Probe 5 Zealot 4 Stalker
Upgrades: Ground Weapons 1 Warp Gate Transformation the program you are using implies there is no travel time or scout, and you wont have enough zealots to deal with normal ling pressure, its good in theory though This would be a lot clearer if it were written in timing instead of supply, but since at one point you are making 2 zealots from gateways, I'm guessing you can delay a couple gateways to make the zealots earlier and still have them up for the warpgate finishing. I'm not sure, but I think I saw Tails doing this on his stream last night. I saw him attack at one point with only 1 gas using 4-5 zealots and 4-5 stalkers, but I wasn't looking at the game clock. Now, that I think back, his might have hit much later though - I think he had 5 gates. The small amount of gas available in this build and others like it is scary, though. If he's going for 2-base pressure instead of fast 3-base, you'll probably only have enough gas for 2 sentries or a sentry and 2 stalkers. Typically, sentries are key in avoiding large damage during these 2-base pushes. Edit: Have you tried to do this in game - or is this purely conjecture assuming the program is setup right?
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I just counted my last 20 pvz using this build.
So far 17-3
1 Loss due to my end game collapsed against brood lord army and my mothership out of position.
1 Loss when the zerg prematurely sunken up on 2 base, low drones and just build a roach hydra army and I didn't see it coming and natural sim city was not best and cornered my army.
1 Loss due to fast roach and ling and I did not wall off properly. Should have scouted it.
Of the remaining, only 3 games so far went beyond 13 minutes.
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On April 22 2012 03:22 AlphaDotCom wrote:
what do you do vs 3 hatch before pool with this, do u play normally? Im curious because i think it should be good vs your build since you cant block the hatch and I dont think you can punish it.
You can skip forge, go for 6 gates and just kill him since he can't do anything about it without a pool. Also he won't have speed either, you can do a poke with 1-2 stalkers off your 1 gate and kill overlords and drones. You can also do this if you scout hatch first, since he won't have units to pressure with and any banelings and roaches will be too late to break in.
Here's some notes on execution and 6 gate supply timings.
Only 1 zealot built not let lings through wall.
2nd gate at 22-25 (needed to complete to wall).
40 x4 gates. (in total you get 6)
36-40(get addition 2 sentries between those timings so in case he still tries to go for something aggressive off hatch first, you can hold it until gateways are up)
You can get 2 more sentries while gateways are building. (4 sentries now)
You attack his 3rd or natural at ~8:30 with a huge gateway army consisting of your initial 1 zealot 2 stalker 4 sentries and an additional set of 12 warped units depending on his army composition. (I recommend not warping additional sentries and save gas for tech, unless you really need them).
With this remember to build workers to gain a huge economical lead, robo transition is the most wise, build it during your attack.
Actually I'm greedy so I just do it vs gasless 14p-15h too. Here's some replays:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)One_vs_(P)NOMAdonminus/19387
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)LaVaKiLen_vs_(P)NOMAdonminus/19388
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@op, how does this deal with the stephano style 12 minute roach max, im not sure ive seen it mentioned
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On April 26 2012 00:41 polysciguy wrote:
@op, how does this deal with the stephano style 12 minute roach max, im not sure ive seen it mentioned
If you read the 7:10 push part it says that its ment to take out the 3rd which I think just voids the chance of 12 minute roach push if executed properly because it will force units instead of allowing the zerg to drone hard like stephano does. And the +2 blink stalkers will take out the amount of roaches the opponent can have because of the lost production of that 3rd base.
Please actually read the full thread before asking something like this. As the answer was in the explanation of the build and how its executed.
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On April 26 2012 02:04 Random_Guy09 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 00:41 polysciguy wrote:
@op, how does this deal with the stephano style 12 minute roach max, im not sure ive seen it mentioned If you read the 7:10 push part it says that its ment to take out the 3rd which I think just voids the chance of 12 minute roach push if executed properly because it will force units instead of allowing the zerg to drone hard like stephano does. And the +2 blink stalkers will take out the amount of roaches the opponent can have because of the lost production of that 3rd base. Please actually read the full thread before asking something like this. As the answer was in the explanation of the build and how its executed.
i have read the thread, if you'll notice ive posted on several pages throughout it. i also know that only a couple roaches need to be out at that 710 point to completely negate the pressure, you aren't pressuring with that many units and it is perfectly reasonable that a zerg can get 1-3 roaches out before it hits at which point you can't do much until the 11 minute timing.
i also read somewhere in the discussion thread on how to beat the stephano style roaches that some players are delaying the third slightly and are expanding behind roach pressure. and this build is designed to take advantage of a fast third with little defense not defendign pressure while hitting a third.
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On April 26 2012 02:12 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 02:04 Random_Guy09 wrote:On April 26 2012 00:41 polysciguy wrote:
@op, how does this deal with the stephano style 12 minute roach max, im not sure ive seen it mentioned If you read the 7:10 push part it says that its ment to take out the 3rd which I think just voids the chance of 12 minute roach push if executed properly because it will force units instead of allowing the zerg to drone hard like stephano does. And the +2 blink stalkers will take out the amount of roaches the opponent can have because of the lost production of that 3rd base. Please actually read the full thread before asking something like this. As the answer was in the explanation of the build and how its executed. i have read the thread, if you'll notice ive posted on several pages throughout it. i also know that only a couple roaches need to be out at that 710 point to completely negate the pressure, you aren't pressuring with that many units and it is perfectly reasonable that a zerg can get 1-3 roaches out before it hits at which point you can't do much until the 11 minute timing. i also read somewhere in the discussion thread on how to beat the stephano style roaches that some players are delaying the third slightly and are expanding behind roach pressure. and this build is designed to take advantage of a fast third with little defense not defendign pressure while hitting a third.
Contrary to popular opinion, zealots do not become useless the second a single roach enters the playingfield. 1-3 roaches do not kill 7 +1 zealots fast enough to save their 3rd. Zergs can save their 3rd, and the good ones will most of the time, but usually they'll just stop your aggression with queens and lings. If you do snipe their 3rd though the +2 blink timing is pretty much a free win (personally I add a 4th gas, add a 7th gate and mix in sentries to make this follow-up push 10x stronger). If you don't snipe their third then you can still do the push but it's no longer a free win really, or you can just expand ASAP after you realize you can't get their 3rd.
In regards to your question about "stephano style roaches" it doesn't exactly relate to this build. This build, as laid out in the OP, is a 2-base timing that hits before zergs can max out on roaches. And stephano style max roaches usually means a max roach push on protoss' third, which if you follow the build to the letter you are not getting. Although personally I have been faking the initial zealot pressure and throwing down a nexus ~6 mins instead of my 2nd and 3rd gates and then defending the stephano-style push from that, but then you are no longer following the build as laid out in the OP.
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Skyro, why would you say the push is 10x stronger with sentries - wouldn't they slow the followup attack quite a bit? Secondly, don't blink stalkers provide enough of a tech edge to beat smaller numbers of roaches? I mean, 20 blink stalkers vs 25 roaches, the stalkers will win handily with proper micro/reinforcements.
Um, I'm guessing you would want to split up the roaches with some ff, blink stalkers back and finish off the first 1/2, and then finish the rest when the ff dissipate. Does that work out to be 10x better?
Thanks!
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On April 26 2012 22:03 matrius wrote:
Skyro, why would you say the push is 10x stronger with sentries - wouldn't they slow the followup attack quite a bit? Secondly, don't blink stalkers provide enough of a tech edge to beat smaller numbers of roaches? I mean, 20 blink stalkers vs 25 roaches, the stalkers will win handily with proper micro/reinforcements.
Um, I'm guessing you would want to split up the roaches with some ff, blink stalkers back and finish off the first 1/2, and then finish the rest when the ff dissipate. Does that work out to be 10x better?
Thanks!
Yes you use FF to split the roaches. You've never seen the 2-base +2 blink stalker/sentry pushes that every korean was doing back in the day and how to utilize FF vs roaches? That should be considered a basic skill every protoss should have.
And it doesn't really slow the follow-up much. My point was that if you were going all-in with this 2nd push, which IMO you should if you did manage to snipe the 3rd earlier, you might as well get your 4th gas and a 7th gate and add sentries into the mix. FYI 32 probes on minerals on 2 bases and 4 gas exactly supports 7-gate stalker production. So you get around 8 or so sentries early to build up their energy while you get your gates and tech up and when +2 and blink completes you warp in nothing but stalkers, and you also probably want to put a robo down for an observer as you move out in case of burrow.
If you don't manage to snipe their third though then I see more merit in using only blink stalker for the purpose of harassing and not going all-in on this push, since you can poke in and out with blink stalkers with minimal losses.
edit: Oh and in regards to +2 blink stalkers vs +1 roaches, +2 blink stalkers beat +1 roaches given equal resources with good micro/positioning, but if you don't snipe their 3rd by the time your +2 blink stalker timing hits they will be running on a full 3-base economy vs your 2-base, so he will simply have a much bigger army resource-wise. However if you do snipe their 3rd, IMO I think the follow-up blink stalker timing is virtually impossible to stop given proper micro/positioning. But of course good zergs will defend their 3rd most of the time.
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nice guide, and really nice update of replays, ill try this style in the actual season.
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what do you do if you scout speedling expand with this, just get 2 gas and get sentries and abandon the pressure. You cant really tell if they are going to all in cause they can put back in gas once they kill your probe.
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Ye, I've run into the 3 base roach vs 2 base stalker before and its pretty tough to attack into.
OK, I get your point - you might as well all in if you get their third, and suggesting your preferred way to do so. I like it, although if I was going to all in I would be inclined to get my 4th gas, build a robo right away, get some sentries as you suggest, and get an immortal (if I knew that roaches were being made) and then push out with sentries/1 immortal/blink stalkers.
Thanks for the clarification and suggestion.
On April 27 2012 01:06 Skyro wrote:
Yes you use FF to split the roaches. You've never seen the 2-base +2 blink stalker/sentry pushes that every korean was doing back in the day and how to utilize FF vs roaches? That should be considered a basic skill every protoss should have.
And it doesn't really slow the follow-up much. My point was that if you were going all-in with this 2nd push, which IMO you should if you did manage to snipe the 3rd earlier, you might as well get your 4th gas and a 7th gate and add sentries into the mix. FYI 32 probes on minerals on 2 bases and 4 gas exactly supports 7-gate stalker production. So you get around 8 or so sentries early to build up their energy while you get your gates and tech up and when +2 and blink completes you warp in nothing but stalkers, and you also probably want to put a robo down for an observer as you move out in case of burrow.
If you don't manage to snipe their third though then I see more merit in using only blink stalker for the purpose of harassing and not going all-in on this push, since you can poke in and out with blink stalkers with minimal losses.
edit: Oh and in regards to +2 blink stalkers vs +1 roaches, +2 blink stalkers beat +1 roaches given equal resources with good micro/positioning, but if you don't snipe their 3rd by the time your +2 blink stalker timing hits they will be running on a full 3-base economy vs your 2-base, so he will simply have a much bigger army resource-wise. However if you do snipe their 3rd, IMO I think the follow-up blink stalker timing is virtually impossible to stop given proper micro/positioning. But of course good zergs will defend their 3rd most of the time.
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Next time you post a guide make sure you post a COMPLETE guide, not unfinished work! Where is the section on how to deal with Zerg bm that's almost guaranteed if you execute this perfectly? With all of the QQ im getting about "ez mode allin protoss noob", you better tell me how to counter it. Especially since most BMing Zs use the imba "user isnt accepting messages" while they are flaming away at you. On a serious note I find the BM resulting from applying pressure to Z amusing, guess we're just supposed to let em drone till they feel comfy. Also for some reason i get a lot more BM from +2 blink timing than from +1 zealot timing..
Also I posted about it a bit earlier but no response, I've been running nexus before second pylon with good success, any thoughts on that? I havent been 6pooled yet but I assume I can hold it off with probe micro till the Zealot comes out.
Im even thinking of trying out nexus first, gw, pylon (basically axslav nexus first PvT), though that's probably waay to greedy. Might run it offline first to see how it affects timings and economy though.
Edit:
Also do you usually wall yourself off when you go in for +1 attack? I've only lost when i executed the build properly to ling runbuys when I move out. Trying to decide if i should chrono extra zealot to plug in the wall or just pylon block it. I always make a cannon now for the same reason.
If I dont have a wall at the ramp, then I usually set up my sim city so that I can plug in a GW to block entrance into main and to the cannon that protects expo nexus if lings move in.. only sometimes i dont react in time.
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EPT
