|
On May 10 2012 01:14 HellRush wrote:
haha ^^ yeah i think pretty sums it up, i think pretty much every protoss player agreees that the matchup is very hard to play right now. I personnally think that a strategy's in RTS should be equaly hard to stop has it is to execute, builds like 4 gate(in the old days), 1-1-1, 3 base max 12 min roach, frustrate me sooo much cause they are build that work most of the time even if you know they are coming. I dont care about an all-in build that the players hides well and then you are took by suprise and then lose, because that is your fault for not actually scouting appropriately, but builds that you know are coming, prepare your best against it and still lose, are just ridiculous. Unless of course your opponent completly out micro you but they usually dont need to when they execute these builds.
Feel free to disagree, but in my opinion these type of builds are negative for the game in general.
I find blanket statement like "every protoss player agrees that the matchup is very hard to play right now" are completely wrong. I am a top 8 masters player on NA and PvZ is my best matchup, and I use this build every single game with huge success.
This build is so good because if they scout you coming, they have to make units to defend, and this keeps worker counts even and you can then throw down stargate or robo and take 3rd with fairly even worker count. If they do not see it coming then they will most likely take a huge economical hit, sometimes outright lose. So yea this is a great way to keep zerg from just sitting back and droning while you sit behind a cannon and macro up. Zerg has gotten smart to the FFE, I can see this build going some where.
|
Well this build might be pretty good but I also think it´s almost equal with the FFe into 4 Gate Push off of 2 base.
Greetings.
|
On May 04 2012 16:32 Sekijitsu wrote:
Again I must suggest, why not simply start the build like a typical FFE and place your pylon on the low ground. Then, place your gateway, forge, and core at the low ground choke allowing you to create a full wall at around the same time you would with a standard FFE? What is it about this small change that you don't like Adonminus? When I use this build thats how I do it and I just find that on SO many maps it works so much better. Especially maps with small chokes this variation is just so strong. It makes it easier to handle zergling bullshit which you should almost be guaranteed to encounter unless you're down in the metal leagues. There is a typical meta game response where a gateway expand is met by zerg with early ling speed from a 14/14 speedling expand. They often times go all in when the queen pops and make a never ending conga line of zerglings into your base as punishment. Being able to funnel the fuckers into a a single hex spot does wonders.
I'm also wondering about some other small changes that seem like they could really do wonders. But please tell me, why not start the build like a typical FFE? Especially on certain maps there is just NO reason to not do so. Maybe some require the more standard gateway expand positioning but Cloud Kingdom for example just BEGS for the build to be used like this.
I'm only Plat, demoted from Diamond but I can get some replays going of me using it in this fashion. I'm just curious why you don't like it Adonminus?
Do you have any replays of you doing it this way? I've been enjoying this build a lot and it works wonders against zergs who take a fast third but I am having a lot of trouble against everything else. Speedling all-ins absolutely crush me.
|
Hi all, I just tried this a couple times on ladder (diamond) and I'm so impressed! I held off a 6 pool easily with it (with drones pulled, no less) thanks to the gateway first on high ground. I held off 2 base speedling pressure with the 4 early zealots, losing only a handful of probes. Then once +1 and warpgate finished I went and prevented Zerg's 3rd to such an extent that I got my own 3rd up at the same time as him. Would have been able to kill him off with the blink timing except for mass spinecrawlers at his natural. So I just backed off, defended his muta harass, and won in the lategame. Never ever got behind, didn't have to worry about a zillion roaches swarming my 3rd, it was actually really strong. I was on even bases with Zerg the entire game. The zealot timing seems SO strong, and it comes so early considering when you expand. I'm also impressed with how well I could defend speedlings. And I'm excited that I'll be able to (most likely) crush proxy hatches with the early zealots. I'm curious how I'll be able to handle roach all ins and baneling all ins though, especially on certain maps without natural chokes.
|
On May 14 2012 01:43 GomJabbar wrote:
Hi all, I just tried this a couple times on ladder (diamond) and I'm so impressed! I held off a 6 pool easily with it (with drones pulled, no less) thanks to the gateway first on high ground. I held off 2 base speedling pressure with the 4 early zealots, losing only a handful of probes. Then once +1 and warpgate finished I went and prevented Zerg's 3rd to such an extent that I got my own 3rd up at the same time as him. Would have been able to kill him off with the blink timing except for mass spinecrawlers at his natural. So I just backed off, defended his muta harass, and won in the lategame. Never ever got behind, didn't have to worry about a zillion roaches swarming my 3rd, it was actually really strong. I was on even bases with Zerg the entire game. The zealot timing seems SO strong, and it comes so early considering when you expand. I'm also impressed with how well I could defend speedlings. And I'm excited that I'll be able to (most likely) crush proxy hatches with the early zealots. I'm curious how I'll be able to handle roach all ins and baneling all ins though, especially on certain maps without natural chokes.
2-base roach-ling all-in is actually quite easily deflected with this opening as your zealots should run into their roaches on the way to his base which should buy you time to get the necessary cannons up. That plus your warp gate finishing very soon with 3 gates behind it and you should very easily repel the all-in. The trick is really getting those addition 2-3 cannons up in time to defend.
Now a baneling all-in is a different story, and it is because of baneling all-ins that I'm of the opinion that the zealot poke is not 100% safe vs 2-base zerg. Now you may get lucky and catch the banelings morphing outside your base with your poking zealots, or see the high number of lings or see that ling speed is done and suspect an all-in to get out senties or reinforce your wall (if the map allows it) to defend, but it isn't guaranteed. You can simply just lose if they morph banelings out of your vision and your zealots are across the map and then he busts your front.
To be 100% safe vs. this you pretty much have to forgo the zealot poke vs 2-base zerg and get a sentry or two as your 3rd or 4th units out of your warp gate (you need the initial 2 zealots to defend your expand vs lings). You probably want to get your 2nd gas earlier as well. One sneaky variation of the baneling all-in is the 3-hatch version (there's a guide up on these forums) which I do believe the zealot poke should be safe to do since the 3-base version hits later so it's quite a bit easier to sniff out, and it also hits around the time your warp gate finishes so you have the option to immediately warp in sentries to defend.
|
Great read!
I will definitely try this build, even though I'm still in the lower leagues (bronze, facing silver and gold).
|
i just skip the forge. i open 1 gate fe with 1 gas, i spend every single chronoboost on probes until my second nexus is up and then maybe some more, i produce 2 zealots and a sentry out of my original gateway, @ 22 i drop a pylon on my natural so im all ready to sim city, drop nexus around 28 food, then put up gateway wall with 2 gates and adding an additional gateway for the pressure i plan on putting on around 7 minutes. its heavy zealot/sentry adding in stalkers as i push. my plan with this push is to take out the zergs third all while taking my third at the same time. i must be careful not to engage if hes ready for it i dont want to lose my army. at this point in the game im usually ahead on workers because of all the chronoboost i like to outmacro zerg as hard as possible.
havent been attacked with a roach all in, but mass spedling runbys have all been too slow to get inside my base thus leaving zerg wayyy to far behind they usually just gg.
|
Damn.
I simply love this build, but I've met my first loss on ladder against a Master Zerg.
He opened fast third (hatchery at 28 food), then immediately made 16 lings. They caught my 3 zealots and the probe in the middle of the map . Well, I killed nearly all of them still. Then I poked with a little force but he had roaches, so I backed.
When the +2 timing hit at 10:30 - 11:00, he was close to starting the Stephano roach max out (around 130 food for him, he was delayed because of the 20 initial lings) and basically, I got crushed while taking my 3rd.
So... dunno what to think. I'll still continue a bit with it (90% winrate for me still!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
