very well written guide, i like it! I'm a little curious how it would hold a standard 25 worker roach/ling allin, but i guess i'll watch the replays and find out.

AvonMexicola

Netherlands36 Posts

February 28 2012 19:58 GMT

#82

Thank you so much I am only plat, but I defeated 8! zerg in a row with this, Meanwhile I was succesfull in defending ling bling attacks roach all ins en muta play.
And some of the times I screwed your build up a bit as well ghehe.

dynwar7

1983 Posts

February 29 2012 03:00 GMT

#83

On February 25 2012 19:59 ichunddu9 wrote:
nice guide i like it

Posts like this should be warned for spam. He only said a 1 sentence comment that simply says the typical "Nice guide I like it"

Makes me think if he did that only to increase post count

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

February 29 2012 04:50 GMT

#84

That opening is so interesting... I want to try it out. Thanks for posting this guide it, pretty well organised and lots of replay content!

Sekijitsu

United States47 Posts

February 29 2012 08:01 GMT

#85

Yeah Adonminus, those replays are REALLY solid. I mean, at first glance the build looks somewhat odd but having played around with it myself in addition to watching you use the build in a wide variety of scenarios, I can safely say that it is well thought out to say the least. When I'm able to successfully execute the build I'll gladly come back here and post some replays.

I'm also highly looking forward to what players like Cecil are able to do with the build.

Thanks again, Adonminus! This build is really helping me with my worst MU. And its so OG! Hardly anyone in the majority of players utilize such a unique and potent build.

I was wondering, what if you made the first pylon in the location you'd make a pylon for a FFE? I mean, since you're still taking a fast nexus, doesn't one also benefit by starting to create your wall with your very first structures as opposed to starting with your core? I'll play around with it and see what kind of results I get. Ideally, one should have a nice safe wall up sooner by simple starting the pylon as though you're taking a FFE. You can also respond to 10 pools with a wall that protects your nat and main with this method. But hey, I'm but a humble platinum player and by no means an authority. It just seems good on "paper".

fighter2_40

United States420 Posts

February 29 2012 08:24 GMT

#86

Interesting, but I "ALWAYS" is a strong word, i really dont think you'll be able to get the zerg's third with the +1 zealots if they have a roach warren, which is very possible. Zergs need to adapt to 1 gate expands by buliding the roach warren faster than when facing ffe into +1 pressure. A good zerg should realize gateway expands come with faster wg tech.

Further, 12-18 blink stalkers isn't really that much if you didn't deny the third on the first push. if these stalkers have to go back home right away i really doubt that you can hold your 11 minute third except on certain maps that have really really easy third. It'll be tough to hold hydra roach or even just straight burrowed roaches on maps that dont provide a ramp to your main if this stalker attack does 0 damage and has to retreat.

From there, you're just behind and don't have any tech beyond blink and +2, no colossus to fight hydras, no immortals to fight roaches, no observers to fight burrow.

So the way i see it is that unless you catch your opponent off guard, i dont see this being better than standard ffe builds.

Edit: but it's a cool build, good to have this in a BoX. Thanks for sharing.

MassAppeal

United States5 Posts

February 29 2012 10:14 GMT

#87

I'm loving this build! Unlike other macro-aggresive builds such as stargate and WP loaded with sentries etc., the early +1 zealots feel more forgiving and cost efficient. The power of the zealot timing is deceptively strong because even when it fails to kill a third or natural, as long as you have been constantly producing probes you will be at an even or greater number of workers.

I'm a little concerned this build is fitting a niche in the metagame and will get figured out soon, but until then I'm pressing it. Thank you for the guide, Adonminus!

yann

119 Posts

February 29 2012 10:38 GMT

#88

Hey Adonminus, thank you so much! I have been currently using it and it is really great strategy. I love being agressive early on as protoss. In 99% of the cases I kill the third with the zealot pressure and usually the blink follow-up zerg cannot defend. Thanks again. GG

Adonminus

Israel543 Posts

February 29 2012 14:01 GMT

#89

I won't respond to criticism such as "your build is countered by X", "Your 3rd is hard to defend because of X", "X all in can kill you" unless you provide a replay of that happening so that I could analyze it. (In most cases it's bad decisions and responses)

@fighter2_40 Abit exaggerated about always, but still. If you deal 0 damage with the build due to early roaches. You retreat with the zealots, then you have use the zealots and your 1 photon cannon to defend his roaches. Spend your minerals on economy advantage instead of stalker, I tested it and making probes instead of stalkers to defend is viable and gives you tons of advantage.

If you can't secure a 3rd, or have troubles against burrow then you either executed it bad or not responded to it properly. If not give me a replay to analyze.

@Sekijitsu Gate on high ground allows to defend 6 pool, and not die to all ins which will kill your nat or force a cancel. I think you can find some more info about it in Yuffie's YufFE opening.

Krighton

Canada6 Posts

February 29 2012 15:35 GMT

#90

Wow, I've actually been thinking about how to not FFE in PvZ for a long time now. I've recently tried some other renditions of 1 and 3 gate expos, but all seemed awkward or just not efficient enough. I feel this guide is a great alternative to FFE and I love how aggressive and map aware it allows you to be right from the early stages of the game.

Finally I don't feel like I'm pinned playing 2 base turtle toss after FFE all game and being completely out macroed. I'm really curious where builds like this are going to take the metagame. Zerg has been so used to massing up muta balls or 3 base roach and just out producing and harassing toss for too long now.

Thanks so much for the guide!

Xaldarian

Netherlands65 Posts

February 29 2012 17:13 GMT

#91

After playing around with the general idea of the build I crushed a zerg player who went 14/14 it was on shattered temple and I started my pylon mid ramp on lowground to make a gate forge cannon cybercore walloff which completely surrounded my cannon while still covering my nexus. a pylon zealot gate noobwall prevented the ling runby so I kept safe the entire game. my upgraded gateway army killed lings roaches and hydras keeping my opponent on 2 bases for a long time while I safely took my third and teched to storm to finish him off.

awesome totally viable style.

thx mate

thurst0n

United States611 Posts

February 29 2012 17:18 GMT

#92

I've been doing something similiar with the zealots but my followup divides tyty Ty what about really early roaches that would bust down ffe

RaiD.RaynoR

United States294 Posts

February 29 2012 17:25 GMT

#93

A bit weaker against early aggression but nevertheless a solid build, I like it!

matrius

100 Posts

March 01 2012 22:48 GMT

#94

I'm very interested in this build, any further comments/criticisms/successes? I would like to hear what other people think/have tried out if possible...

Micket

United Kingdom2163 Posts

March 01 2012 23:08 GMT

#95

This is basically Mc's PvZ style of the last 2-3 months, except he goes ffe. His +1 attack zealots into +2 blink stalkers into +3, third and tech, demolished Nerchio, Stephano and all other Zerg at homestory cup. Watch those games too.

SteadySC

United States6 Posts

March 01 2012 23:34 GMT

#96

I love the directions in which you are taking the match up. It seems as if I am always forced to play a certain play style in this match up just to keep up with zerg (timing attacks for larve control, FE to keep up with worker count, etc...). This allows for a flexable transition into something that could be quite creative for future play..... Hmmm.. I salute you good sir

Ookpik

12 Posts

March 02 2012 01:39 GMT

#97

Really interesting opening

I'm having a hard time against in masters against zerg so will definitely try this out.

However, to be honest, I was rather disappointed in the game vs Breathe :/
He never had more than 61 drones (that i could see) and didn't start upgrades until 21 minutes in
He spent most of the game at around 50 drones
Is this a result of your build (as in, you consistently see zergs not droning because constant pressure doesn't allow them to) or did Breathe just mess up?

kalteras

United States72 Posts

March 02 2012 05:48 GMT

#98

I tried this build about 10 times against a diamond zerg friend of mine(I'm high plat) and its worth noting you will get harassed by zerglings often, this build requires diamond+ level multitasking and micro. This build feels effective but fragile if not executed crisply. Would not recommend this build to anyone without solid mechanics.

P.S. appreciate this guide, I look forward to making zergs BM me with it when I'm better

edit: harrased by zerglings often and EARLY!

Uninstall

Canada79 Posts

March 02 2012 14:31 GMT

#99

This build really is fun to use. The only problem I am having with it is if the Zerg goes for fast Speedling/Baneling to try and fight my gateway army. Should I tech up to Colossus sooner? Because I start to trade rather inefficiently with Zerg. Even when I am ahead in econ, he will just eventually roll over my army and kill my 3rd.

Mercy13

United States718 Posts

March 02 2012 17:23 GMT

#100

Hi Adonminus, thanks a lot for the guide! It's been working well for me, and I like how it feels less passive than FFE. I played a game this morning, however, where I'm having trouble figuring out why I lost and I'm hoping you can check it out:

http://replayfu.com/download/fNmWht

I'm still working on my execution of the build so my first attack was delayed a bit but I don't think this made a huge difference. The zerg turtled on two bases w/ spines for a while, and both timing attacks were absolutely crushed (the blink stalkers before I even got close to his base tt ).

Two things I think I could have done: (1) Gotten a quick robo once I realized he had early roaches or (2) not bothered to attack at all when he was turtling like that, and just built up a collosus count.

If you have time to check out the replay I'd really appreciate it, thanks again!