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On March 03 2012 02:23 Mercy13 wrote:Hi Adonminus, thanks a lot for the guide! It's been working well for me, and I like how it feels less passive than FFE. I played a game this morning, however, where I'm having trouble figuring out why I lost and I'm hoping you can check it out: http://replayfu.com/download/fNmWhtI'm still working on my execution of the build so my first attack was delayed a bit but I don't think this made a huge difference. The zerg turtled on two bases w/ spines for a while, and both timing attacks were absolutely crushed (the blink stalkers before I even got close to his base tt ). Two things I think I could have done: (1) Gotten a quick robo once I realized he had early roaches or (2) not bothered to attack at all when he was turtling like that, and just built up a collosus count. If you have time to check out the replay I'd really appreciate it, thanks again!
Alright, I gonna analyze your replay:
1) I don't recommend scouting at 9 with this build, as you notice, you're missing like 50 mineral to start your nexus when your probe arrives. Usually you scout with 16th probe, you can send 15th probe on 2 spawn locations and probe after gateway on 3 spawn locations.
2) One small note that you started mining gas a bit late that game, but happens to anyone.
3) You send 3 zealots with probes exactly when you started your 4th gateway.
4) As a result, your push is 1 minute late and he already has roaches. Because he had lings, you couldn't retreat, in such moments you must effectively suicide your zealots. This means you're going to attack the lings with your zealots to just get some kills.
5) Try to get more probes.
6) You need to be more careful with the stalker engagements. He just surrounded your force and you couldn't escape. Try to engage in smaller areas with easy paths to retreat, like for example the area near his 3rd.
7) An earlier robo can be good too. Game 10 shows that I have pretty much the same stuff like you, but also a robo with immortals and a 3rd. While the zerg force is much smaller since the 1st push made him get fast units and he decided to drone now instead of making units. You gave your zerg 1 minute to get those extra drones, so he was less on the droning and could afford lots of roaches.
In general, you should improve the timing of your 1st push. Be more careful with stalker engagements, and slightly improve your macro.
Another note is that if you retreated with zealots in your 1st engagement, you could use those zealots to help your blink stalkers defend against zerglings. Also if you see he's really heavy on zerglings, add zealots to your blink stalker army.
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All very good points, thanks a lot for checking the replay out!
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I have been playing this style for 2 days of laddering, ~ 15 games,
I am having some minor executing issues
- My zealot push is 20 to40 sec slower.
- Ling pokes(no speed) off a 14/14/ (with16 or 21 hatch) mess me up in the build order.
- Fail at holding 10 pool
Other than that I had a lot of wins with this build
- It is very safe after ~7:10 in game time
- taking my 3rd seems easer than in other builds if they are trying to use +1 roach ling
How ever it feels a little all-in ish.
Why?
Tech seems so late, few games my blink stalkers hit when zerg was getting out roach/hydra/ling or burrow roaches.
If zerg uses that to defect my stalkers. they do a counter swing to my 3rd and killed it. sure they had no drones for their 3rd but I had no tech and no 3rd.
So, is their a way to get in to robo tech faster, like cutting a gate way? just to get obs, and throw down a robo bay if I see hydra?
Also how can I scout in between my zealot push and when I decide to got 6 gate or go robo? (I know the zealot push scouts also but after that IDK)
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So how do you get your attack to hit at 710?
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On March 07 2012 13:14 WarpTV wrote:
So how do you get your attack to hit at 710?
you need to dump 2 chronos onto it. I'm not sure when you do it but you need at least 2 chrono, maybe 3 if you mess up somewhere along the line to hit the right timing.
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I really enjoy this build on metal, shattered, entombed, and pretty much nonffe maps. I originally had a lot of problems with libgs, because I was playing greedy. I did find out that if the zerg stays on 2 base and just suicides lungs, you can cancel nexus and go 3 gate sentry EXPO and attack with +1 blink instead of +2(gas on sentry) I am mid plat, but I can hit both 710 4gate, and blink tiiming.
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Loving this build! Would be great to see more people trying it and submitting replays :D
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I was starting to get tired of FFE passiveness when I stumbled on this thread - just tried this build for the first time and wow it was so much fun! Despite super sloppy timings, it was so satisfying to have +1 lots ripping through 3hatch worth of mass mass lings trying to save their third hatch, and another third denied with the follow-up push that the zerg didn't even bother trying to defend. Even ended up luckily blind-countering the muta-ling transition with an HT follow-up that completely wrecked everything and got my first 'gg wp' in a PvZ in a long time. Thanks so much OP!
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Hello. I am a high master protoss. This build has been working well for me on ladder, however I do find some problems with the blink follow up. Most games I am able to snipe the third hatch or do significant econ damage, but against the highest level zerg opponents, the blink stalker timing does not kill them. When I move out with the 12-18 stalkers, should I be looking to do damage and get away with blink while securing a 3rd, or just look to finish them off. (ie: chroning gates, not adding robo, not teching +3). Here are two replays vs coLGoswer and TSLHyuN. Please guys take a look at them and let me know what you think. I feel that I should have played defensively after I sniped that hatch, or merely use the stalkers for aggression but not suicide my army.
http://drop.sc/128341 <-- vs coLgoswer
http://drop.sc/128342 <-- vs TSLHyuN
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This build is interesting but i am trying to change it.
Here is my thinking process : i tried to use this build on maps with opened natural (ie bad ffe maps, metalopolis for example). But sometimes opponents don't want to be in a macro mode (and it's a good solution) so they do : early pool or early lings pressure. And the thing is that on metalo, you need a 2 canon coverage, so your build is delayed and you won't be able to do what it should do. I'am not even talking of runby because you will just make 1 sentry or even 0 (or your build will be delayed).
So, according to games i did in ladder (high P, EU), the idea of this build is good (earlier warpgate due to having the gate before nexus), but it is only safe against robot-macro-mode zerg who fears to do early zerglings because they think it will make them in a bad position.
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OK, I reviewed your first game, and you played well, just not well enough at the 'highest level'. Your opponent defended well, but you were ahead until his third base kicked in. However, you macro slipped quite badly around 11-13 min (only making a handful of probes during that time), and prior to that you were supply blocked for a while resulting in less econ than you should have had at around 13-14 min. You were around 45 probes to his 60+ drones - you have to stay ahead or at least even if you plan on trading armies with a zerg, if you are behind in econ, forget trading armies, you have to be more efficient with your force (ie. better micro, or better composition or some combination). If you had the same number of workers as he did, you could have expanded behind your attack and then backed off when you felt you weren't going to win war, but before losing your whole army. Then teching up and keeping up the macro.
As well, you really want to try and get the most out of blink - getting in a big concave is good, but attacking in chokes and then blinking the front stalkers back is even better, makes the stalkers more efficient in the battles. If thats not possible due to the map, then mixing in immortals/sentries is a better idea.
It is called Macro-Aggressive for reason - you have to keep up in the macro with your zerg opponent, its not an all in, although you played it like it is...
"I feel that I should have played defensively after I sniped that hatch, or merely use the stalkers for aggression but not suicide my army."
Yes, thats right, get that third base and keep your army intact while keeping up your macro better and you'll be set. Not guaranteed to win, but better than what you did in the replay.
After I get 3 or 4 bases, I like to get a Dark Shrine and then send 3 DT over to a zerg expansion while pressuring on another front...works well when properly executed.
I hope that helps!
On March 08 2012 15:28 PrinceVegeta wrote:Hello. I am a high master protoss. This build has been working well for me on ladder, however I do find some problems with the blink follow up. Most games I am able to snipe the third hatch or do significant econ damage, but against the highest level zerg opponents, the blink stalker timing does not kill them. When I move out with the 12-18 stalkers, should I be looking to do damage and get away with blink while securing a 3rd, or just look to finish them off. (ie: chroning gates, not adding robo, not teching +3). Here are two replays vs coLGoswer and TSLHyuN. Please guys take a look at them and let me know what you think. I feel that I should have played defensively after I sniped that hatch, or merely use the stalkers for aggression but not suicide my army. http://drop.sc/128341 <-- vs coLgoswer http://drop.sc/128342 <-- vs TSLHyuN
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Just wanted to say Thanks! to the OP, this is working well for me so far, making for some fun games!
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I absolutely love this build, has worked flawlessly for me on ladder (Mid master). Zergs get thrown off easily just because of the odd opening.
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Really great game against the GM Zerg, I love your style! More entertaining than a lot of pro games =)
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That screenshot of the 7 zealot attack, you were close position on the one map that has the closest position of any map ever released.
Therefore your attack timing is a best case scenario.
What if you happen to be at for example tal'darim cross positions? We'd be adding like 20-30 seconds to your timing attack, at which ling speed would likely be done and lings would already be out and zerg would have had plenty of time to respond.
Every zerg nowadays will have roaches out by 8 min 20 seconds. If you hit at 7:30-7-50 with your zealots, lings will stall long enough for roaches to clean the mess up.
Now, your timing attack does work but only on certain maps with certain close positions and small travel times. Unless you already have a pylon in place but then youd have 4 zealots with the other 3 being delayed.
On February 25 2012 20:34 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 20:13 WarBobz wrote:
This is my opinion, yet It does have potential.
Still one question, why +2 not +1 armor after weapons? because zealots will survive more and do more damage than with +2. Why not +2? Because +1 weapons - 2shot lings. Understandable. +1 armor = more armor to tank = more ling kills. Especially good in choke. I already mentioned it, it's even underlined, +2 weapon allows blink stalkers to 3 shot lings instead of 4 shotting them. Blink already gives stalkers enough survivability.
I'm just going to assume that zerg does not just sit around not upgrading armor, but instead keeps his armor in check.
Other than the stephano roach style, double upgrade ling/infestor is becoming increasingly popular.
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Build sucks to be honest. All zerg has to do is 2 base roach speedling herp derp push at 8 minutes and a-move. Then, you lose
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On March 20 2012 16:23 NoisyNinja wrote:
Build sucks to be honest. All zerg has to do is 2 base roach speedling herp derp push at 8 minutes and a-move. Then, you lose
So you think that you shouldnt scout or build wall or cannons. With that logic every build would lose to roaches.
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Thanks for this great guide. Definitely going to try it. I love that you included pictures with the guide, it helps to understand the build more while reading at work and unable to watch replays 
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On March 19 2012 16:17 kaluro wrote:That screenshot of the 7 zealot attack, you were close position on the one map that has the closest position of any map ever released. Therefore your attack timing is a best case scenario. What if you happen to be at for example tal'darim cross positions? We'd be adding like 20-30 seconds to your timing attack, at which ling speed would likely be done and lings would already be out and zerg would have had plenty of time to respond. Every zerg nowadays will have roaches out by 8 min 20 seconds. If you hit at 7:30-7-50 with your zealots, lings will stall long enough for roaches to clean the mess up. Now, your timing attack does work but only on certain maps with certain close positions and small travel times. Unless you already have a pylon in place but then youd have 4 zealots with the other 3 being delayed. Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 20:34 Adonminus wrote:On February 25 2012 20:13 WarBobz wrote:
This is my opinion, yet It does have potential.
Still one question, why +2 not +1 armor after weapons? because zealots will survive more and do more damage than with +2. Why not +2? Because +1 weapons - 2shot lings. Understandable. +1 armor = more armor to tank = more ling kills. Especially good in choke. I already mentioned it, it's even underlined, +2 weapon allows blink stalkers to 3 shot lings instead of 4 shotting them. Blink already gives stalkers enough survivability. I'm just going to assume that zerg does not just sit around not upgrading armor, but instead keeps his armor in check. Other than the stephano roach style, double upgrade ling/infestor is becoming increasingly popular.
You move out with your initial 3 zealots around 6 mins. I'm not aware of any map where it takes over a minute game time to traverse from base to base.
I've played against 2-base double upgrade infestorling and their 1/1 will not be done when you hit with your initial zealots. Also +2 weapons chargelot/archon rolls over infestorling. The issue would be moreso identifying whether they are going 2-base mutaling or infestorling (your initial zealot pressure may give some indication of this).
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On March 20 2012 19:54 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 16:23 NoisyNinja wrote:
Build sucks to be honest. All zerg has to do is 2 base roach speedling herp derp push at 8 minutes and a-move. Then, you lose So you think that you shouldnt scout or build wall or cannons. With that logic every build would lose to roaches.
I gave this build a fair shot and did everything it says. All zerg had to do was a 2 base roach all in
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EPT
