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First thing first i don't like the opening, if the zerg scouts ( which most zergs don't do right now ) he can just make lings with the first 5-6 larva after pool and you won't have a cannon to def in time, i believe, not to mention if he goes 14/14, im not sure about it but that's what it seems like to me.
Ignoring the opening, i don't like the build.
Its good for your average joe, hell it can work vs a gm zerg easy peze but its a "dieing bred" with the +1 zealot timing and the +2 blink stalker, as stephano and recently other zergs have shown, +1 zealot timing is bad, its oky to mix it in but it can be stopped easily if the zerg knows what to do, and considering how many people to those timings atm id say its pretty bad to have your build include it.
The +2 blink stalker pushes, again, are not straight out "bad" but simply figure out,zergs figured out how to deal with blink timing pushes, and guess what, the way to stop a push is the same as the way to stop a late blink expand, make fucking units.
Basically the zerg has to figure out you are going for a +1 lot push, which is so common nowadays that its not hard to guess for zerg, make enough roaches to hold it and than simply out micro your and rofl stomp the blinkstalker push while teching to infestor and simply killing you if you try to get a 3rd up due to numeric advantage.
Again, its not straight up bad, but in the current meta game its not very innovative and its not "that good"
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you do have zealots enough in time tough
edit: also instead of saying something is bad when someone scouts it, thats the fking point, if you scout something of course you can counter it. The whole point of scouting is to defend against what they will be doing, its not going to work every time or the game would be broken.
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On March 25 2012 18:00 Aterons_toss wrote:
First thing first i don't like the opening, if the zerg scouts ( which most zergs don't do right now ) he can just make lings with the first 5-6 larva after pool and you won't have a cannon to def in time, i believe, not to mention if he goes 14/14, im not sure about it but that's what it seems like to me.
Ignoring the opening, i don't like the build.
Its good for your average joe, hell it can work vs a gm zerg easy peze but its a "dieing bred" with the +1 zealot timing and the +2 blink stalker, as stephano and recently other zergs have shown, +1 zealot timing is bad, its oky to mix it in but it can be stopped easily if the zerg knows what to do, and considering how many people to those timings atm id say its pretty bad to have your build include it.
The +2 blink stalker pushes, again, are not straight out "bad" but simply figure out,zergs figured out how to deal with blink timing pushes, and guess what, the way to stop a push is the same as the way to stop a late blink expand, make fucking units.
Basically the zerg has to figure out you are going for a +1 lot push, which is so common nowadays that its not hard to guess for zerg, make enough roaches to hold it and than simply out micro your and rofl stomp the blinkstalker push while teching to infestor and simply killing you if you try to get a 3rd up due to numeric advantage.
Again, its not straight up bad, but in the current meta game its not very innovative and its not "that good"
I don't know how viable his build is but the timings are vastly different from the standard timings that everyone else uses.
If Stephano has all the timings figured out so perfectly, MC would not 2-0'd him at IEM so easily with +1 zeals into +2 blink.
The real concern with this build is what happens if Zerg focuses on pressuring your natural. Killing the NExus would end the game, but even if the zerg cannot kill the nexus, i fail to see how this build can possibly stop a zerg from sniping the core - which delays your gateway tech, which delays your push, which allows him to drone, which puts us back at square one.
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So I'm going to start doing this build as I'm starting toss. That GM game was so funny. If you just turtled for maybe 2 mins you could of rolled him over. But instead he let you get free bases and he said "jesus fuck you whore" at the end for no reason.....lol
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I just don't see this opening being viable at all..
If you're going for a forge and cannon to expo it makes no sense to add in a gate first, you're only being unsafe or forcing lots of probe cuts. The minor timing advantage you get from it is just not worth it
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When I first heard about the FFE, I was silver and I thought: this is madness, I cannot expand that early against a Zerg! Then I started doing it and it felt almost like cheating, I was winning almost every PvZ because I was so much ahead in economy. Then I got to platinum and FFE suddenly does not work, as any Zerg is smart enough to drone like crazy and then overpower me woth muta or roach, so I even got demoted back to gold. I am winning most of PvTs, having farily even PvPs but yet I am completely lost in PvZ because of the pointlessnes of the FFE. Now this style, looks like something I was waitng for. I really hope this can help me having fun in 1v1 again! I actaully heard about yuffe and 1 gate expand plays before, but this is the first guide I came along that is really detailed and seems very clear to me what to do. Thank you.
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On March 29 2012 02:58 Markwerf wrote:
I just don't see this opening being viable at all..
If you're going for a forge and cannon to expo it makes no sense to add in a gate first, you're only being unsafe or forcing lots of probe cuts. The minor timing advantage you get from it is just not worth it
Have you even tried it? You use the initial 1-2 zealots from your gate to defend while you get your cannon up which is needed vs mass speedlings. The gate first allows for an earlier core/warp gate tech, which is in no way, shape or form a minor timing advantage (can be over a minute difference in warp gate timing). The economy difference between this opening and a forge-first FFE is very similar and depends on how quickly you need to get your cannon up based on your initial scouting. If you scout 15 hatch for example you don't have to cut probes to get your forge up quickly. I would even argue that this build can be even more economical since you have a lot of spare chronos that can be used on probes instead of things like warp gate, depending on what timings you want to hit.
The only concern is safety, which is valid because I don't believe the opening is completely vetted yet, but so far in my testing it does seem fairly safe. When I say safe I don't mean you can prevent all damage if they try to break you with mass lings, but more in that you can fend it off well enough so that you won't come out behind. I liken it to defending a 6-pool with a non-walled-off ramp where you will undoubtably take some damage but you should be able to defend it well enough with proper micro to come out in a relatively good position.
edit: the one negative about the build is you kind of need to make some sort of effective wall-off from the nexus to your ramp with just a pylon, cannon, and core. Of course another option is if there is a ramp at your natural you can just do a normal wall-off there, but then you take the risk they don't 6-pool since you can't fall back on a pylon + cannon in your mineral line in that scenario (plus that would require a 9 scout as well), so if you are playing on a map and want to wall-off your ramp at your natural you would have to FFE unless you knew for sure they were not 6-pooling.
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How do you deal if they do fast mutas on 2 base? Should the zealot +1 pressure be good enough to stop that, or what?
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On March 30 2012 13:07 furerkip wrote:
How do you deal if they do fast mutas on 2 base? Should the zealot +1 pressure be good enough to stop that, or what?
When going mutas on 2 bases, he'll have to use lings and spine crawlers and zealots will deal lots of damage to those lings and blink stalkers won't let his mutas deal damage so going 2 base mutas isn't good vs this build. However 3 base mutas with roaches before to defend can be viable.
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On March 30 2012 13:23 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 13:07 furerkip wrote:
How do you deal if they do fast mutas on 2 base? Should the zealot +1 pressure be good enough to stop that, or what? When going mutas on 2 bases, he'll have to use lings and spine crawlers and zealots will deal lots of damage to those lings and blink stalkers won't let his mutas deal damage so going 2 base mutas isn't good vs this build. However 3 base mutas with roaches before to defend can be viable.
Just to add that a lot of zergs like to just make a gazillion spines at their natural while fast teching to mutas off 2-base. You can easily substitute a robo for a twilight and +1 armor for +2 weapons in this scenario and warp in his main. 1/1 zealots will rip through unupgraded lings like nobody's business.
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Skyro, good point. Now, I see you mention substitution of robo for twilight which, according to the BO, is to come at 36 supply IIRC. Does that timing work well if you don't see a 3rd by then? If so, I might start to do that - no third by 36 supply, then get a robo...
Do you have a replay you could share?
Thanks!
On March 30 2012 15:29 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 13:23 Adonminus wrote:On March 30 2012 13:07 furerkip wrote:
How do you deal if they do fast mutas on 2 base? Should the zealot +1 pressure be good enough to stop that, or what? When going mutas on 2 bases, he'll have to use lings and spine crawlers and zealots will deal lots of damage to those lings and blink stalkers won't let his mutas deal damage so going 2 base mutas isn't good vs this build. However 3 base mutas with roaches before to defend can be viable. Just to add that a lot of zergs like to just make a gazillion spines at their natural while fast teching to mutas off 2-base. You can easily substitute a robo for a twilight and +1 armor for +2 weapons in this scenario and warp in his main. 1/1 zealots will rip through unupgraded lings like nobody's business.
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On March 30 2012 22:00 matrius wrote:Skyro, good point. Now, I see you mention substitution of robo for twilight which, according to the BO, is to come at 36 supply IIRC. Does that timing work well if you don't see a 3rd by then? If so, I might start to do that - no third by 36 supply, then get a robo... Do you have a replay you could share? Thanks! Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 15:29 Skyro wrote:On March 30 2012 13:23 Adonminus wrote:On March 30 2012 13:07 furerkip wrote:
How do you deal if they do fast mutas on 2 base? Should the zealot +1 pressure be good enough to stop that, or what? When going mutas on 2 bases, he'll have to use lings and spine crawlers and zealots will deal lots of damage to those lings and blink stalkers won't let his mutas deal damage so going 2 base mutas isn't good vs this build. However 3 base mutas with roaches before to defend can be viable. Just to add that a lot of zergs like to just make a gazillion spines at their natural while fast teching to mutas off 2-base. You can easily substitute a robo for a twilight and +1 armor for +2 weapons in this scenario and warp in his main. 1/1 zealots will rip through unupgraded lings like nobody's business.
I don't really save my replays but yes you can substitute it at that timing and it should line up nicely with +1 armor if you chrono boost it non-stop. Basically if I see no third by 5m then I start chrono'ing +1 weapons and +1 armor non-stop. +1 armor should finish around 8:40-8:50 in that case, which lines up roughly if you throw down your robo ~6:30. The only adjustment after that I make is delay the additional gasses until after I throw down 3 additional gates ~7:20-7:30, then add 3 gasses and my twilight after that. I've found this to be a pretty effective vs 2-base tech since 99% of the time zerg will go mutaling or infestorling, both which are this is very strong against. Even if you can't kill them outright you usually can do enough damage to win later (i.e. hatch snipe), so then transition as necessary (blink stalkers vs mutaling or chargelot/archon vs infestorling).
Also vs. 2-base tech don't just sacrifice your initial 3-4 zealots into what is likely a well-defended front at their natural. Just poke around and do what damage you can but try to save your zealots since they will add a lot of punch to your drop since you can load them with your prism (i.e. 10 zealots in their main instead of 6 @ ~8:40).
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Your replays are autosaved, that makes no sense.
Ya, I think that 10 zealots in their main without muties there yet would do it. 8:40 should be good, still have a good 60 seconds to do some serious damage.
Thanks for the suggestion!
On March 31 2012 02:33 Skyro wrote:
I don't really save my replays but yes you can substitute it at that timing and it should line up nicely with +1 armor if you chrono boost it non-stop. Basically if I see no third by 5m then I start chrono'ing +1 weapons and +1 armor non-stop. +1 armor should finish around 8:40-8:50 in that case, which lines up roughly if you throw down your robo ~6:30. The only adjustment after that I make is delay the additional gasses until after I throw down 3 additional gates ~7:20-7:30, then add 3 gasses and my twilight after that. I've found this to be a pretty effective vs 2-base tech since 99% of the time zerg will go mutaling or infestorling, both which are this is very strong against. Even if you can't kill them outright you usually can do enough damage to win later (i.e. hatch snipe), so then transition as necessary (blink stalkers vs mutaling or chargelot/archon vs infestorling).
Also vs. 2-base tech don't just sacrifice your initial 3-4 zealots into what is likely a well-defended front at their natural. Just poke around and do what damage you can but try to save your zealots since they will add a lot of punch to your drop since you can load them with your prism (i.e. 10 zealots in their main instead of 6 @ ~8:40).
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On March 31 2012 03:10 matrius wrote:Your replays are autosaved, that makes no sense. Ya, I think that 10 zealots in their main without muties there yet would do it. 8:40 should be good, still have a good 60 seconds to do some serious damage. Thanks for the suggestion! Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 02:33 Skyro wrote:
I don't really save my replays but yes you can substitute it at that timing and it should line up nicely with +1 armor if you chrono boost it non-stop. Basically if I see no third by 5m then I start chrono'ing +1 weapons and +1 armor non-stop. +1 armor should finish around 8:40-8:50 in that case, which lines up roughly if you throw down your robo ~6:30. The only adjustment after that I make is delay the additional gasses until after I throw down 3 additional gates ~7:20-7:30, then add 3 gasses and my twilight after that. I've found this to be a pretty effective vs 2-base tech since 99% of the time zerg will go mutaling or infestorling, both which are this is very strong against. Even if you can't kill them outright you usually can do enough damage to win later (i.e. hatch snipe), so then transition as necessary (blink stalkers vs mutaling or chargelot/archon vs infestorling).
Also vs. 2-base tech don't just sacrifice your initial 3-4 zealots into what is likely a well-defended front at their natural. Just poke around and do what damage you can but try to save your zealots since they will add a lot of punch to your drop since you can load them with your prism (i.e. 10 zealots in their main instead of 6 @ ~8:40).
Yes the game auto-saves replays but automatically deletes them after a while I believe (default setting). I may or may not have a replay I have no idea. It's not like I'm meeting 2-base tech zergs every game as it is relatively rare compared to fast 3rd builds.
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Ya, it is rare, thats why I was interested 
I think it saves the last 24 or so, so no probs!
Cheers,
Mark
Yes the game auto-saves replays but automatically deletes them after a while I believe (default setting). I may or may not have a replay I have no idea. It's not like I'm meeting 2-base tech zergs every game as it is relatively rare compared to fast 3rd builds.
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On March 31 2012 03:36 matrius wrote:Ya, it is rare, thats why I was interested I think it saves the last 24 or so, so no probs! Cheers, Mark Show nested quote +
Yes the game auto-saves replays but automatically deletes them after a while I believe (default setting). I may or may not have a replay I have no idea. It's not like I'm meeting 2-base tech zergs every game as it is relatively rare compared to fast 3rd builds.
Also FYI the only time I ever actually had this stopped by a zerg player where I didn't mess up horribly (i.e. getting prism sniped T_T) was my practice partner (who is high masters) went 2-base infestorling but specifically timed his double evo to get 1/1 right when this hits (and also already had a bunch of lings already made ready to defend the initial drop). However even in that case you can still do quite well by transitioning into chargelot/archon and hitting a +2 weapons timing. Haven't really seen any Mutaling players do early double upgrades in this fashion (I assume they can't spare the gas early on? Not sure). But overall it has worked quite well for me on ladder.
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9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008
Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future.
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On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future.
how do you go about scouting a 6pool with this, it seems you dont leave youre base until 2:40, which wont beable to see it in time
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On March 31 2012 20:47 Thiole wrote:
how do you go about scouting a 6pool with this, it seems you dont leave youre base until 2:40, which wont beable to see it in time
Forgot to note, you scout with 15th probe which goes to make low ground pylon. You will probably notice 6 pool, even you don't, you just pull probes, cancel nexus and build zealots and forge, then proceed doing the strategy.
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Pretty sure with such little gas this build doesn't have any response to a 2-3 hatch baneling all-in, particularly because it easily overwhelms the zealot poke. I suppose it's one of the less common all-ins in the matchup, but it's a strong build that zenio used quite a bit at a recent mlg and the 7 minute zealot pressures are really bad against it in particular. I'm not really sure how a protoss is supposed to scout that or deal with it without sentries.
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EPT
