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On March 31 2012 21:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Pretty sure with such little gas this build doesn't have any response to a 2-3 hatch baneling all-in, particularly because it easily overwhelms the zealot poke. I suppose it's one of the less common all-ins in the matchup, but it's a strong build that zenio used quite a bit at a recent mlg and the 7 minute zealot pressures are really bad against it in particular. I'm not really sure how a protoss is supposed to scout that or deal with it without sentries.
you scout him getting more then 100 gas, if you do, you can make some extra cannons, since the response is the same for roach allins or banes
edit: i feel scouting the 6pool, esp on the map vs whatszurg, a 6pool would be at your base right as you build 2nd pylon,
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Hey, excellent. I was planning on cutting a gateway because I kept noticing that my first gate was sitting idle. However, you came up with the details before I even started! Thank you!
I'm going to test it to see if the timings are OK for a 6 pool, which I lost to terribly yesterday using the old build.
On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:
Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future.
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OK, I just looked at your replay, and then compared it to my game on Shakuras P. where I was 6 pooled. Your first zealot pops out at 3:45, and his 6 zerglings were at my ramp at 3:00, a full 45 seconds earlier. 2 more zerglings followed a little while afterwards, and they killed my pylon before my zealot popped, and then killed my 16 probes without a problem.
When you leave to scout at 2:40, that isn't enough time to see the zerglings coming on anything but (possibly) a 2 position map, because if you goto the wrong base, you definitely won't see them.
Thus, this build doesn't appear to be safe to me from a 6 pool. We either have to build a zealot earlier, or scout earlier. I'm inclined to scout, but you are the GM, and its your BO I've been using, so I'm thinking you might know better  What do you say? I'm loving this build, btw.
One more thing - a did have a problem one game where a zergy put down a hatch in MY natural. I proceeded to lose. After looking at the replay, the reason was because I had trouble securing my natural vs zergling runbys, then a roach swtich. I would recommend to anyone that this happens to to put up a pylon or two next to the zerg's hatchery while its building, and then put up a cannon or two. This would have done the trick in my position...
Cheers,
Mark
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On March 31 2012 21:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Pretty sure with such little gas this build doesn't have any response to a 2-3 hatch baneling all-in, particularly because it easily overwhelms the zealot poke. I suppose it's one of the less common all-ins in the matchup, but it's a strong build that zenio used quite a bit at a recent mlg and the 7 minute zealot pressures are really bad against it in particular. I'm not really sure how a protoss is supposed to scout that or deal with it without sentries.
I was just gonna say; yesterday I faced a higher lvl player probably masters smurf, and he did a 2-3 base baneling bust timing. Because my wg wasn't even finished, I only had 2 zealots. I couldn't scout bc he kept his lings on patrol the whole map, denying my proxy pylon. I lost in no time.
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On March 31 2012 22:49 Thiole wrote:
you scout him getting more then 100 gas, if you do, you can make some extra cannons, since the response is the same for roach allins or banes
The build I am referring to gets gas later and you'll never be able to scout the main by that point with a probe. I don't mean a 14 gas opener, I mean 3 hatch (or sometimes 2) into baneling bust. On the outside it looks a lot like a gasless 3 hatch roach/ling build.
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On April 01 2012 00:05 matrius wrote:
OK, I just looked at your replay, and then compared it to my game on Shakuras P. where I was 6 pooled. Your first zealot pops out at 3:45, and his 6 zerglings were at my ramp at 3:00, a full 45 seconds earlier. 2 more zerglings followed a little while afterwards, and they killed my pylon before my zealot popped, and then killed my 16 probes without a problem.
When you leave to scout at 2:40, that isn't enough time to see the zerglings coming on anything but (possibly) a 2 position map, because if you goto the wrong base, you definitely won't see them.
The timings you provided are indeed correct, however you're forgetting one thing. You can stop mining for a whole minute since once you cancel the nexus you get 325 minerals which can power you for a whole minute. Now you pull probes and don't let the lings kill the pylon, add a 2nd pylon in case your pylon is on low hp, keep chronoing zealots until you defend the 6 pool. Remember to micro the probes correctly to limit their loses.
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Maybe that was my problem, I didn't react to the lings by protecting the pylon. 15 probes should take on 6 zerglings OK, but I'm expecting to lose 6-7 I guess...not sure what you mean about correct micro other than trying to pull wounded ones back?
On April 01 2012 01:00 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 00:05 matrius wrote:
OK, I just looked at your replay, and then compared it to my game on Shakuras P. where I was 6 pooled. Your first zealot pops out at 3:45, and his 6 zerglings were at my ramp at 3:00, a full 45 seconds earlier. 2 more zerglings followed a little while afterwards, and they killed my pylon before my zealot popped, and then killed my 16 probes without a problem.
When you leave to scout at 2:40, that isn't enough time to see the zerglings coming on anything but (possibly) a 2 position map, because if you goto the wrong base, you definitely won't see them.
The timings you provided are indeed correct, however you're forgetting one thing. You can stop mining for a whole minute since once you cancel the nexus you get 325 minerals which can power you for a whole minute. Now you pull probes and don't let the lings kill the pylon, add a 2nd pylon in case your pylon is on low hp, keep chronoing zealots until you defend the 6 pool. Remember to micro the probes correctly to limit their loses.
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mineral walk the weak ones back to mining, so they dont die
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OK, I've watched your replay a few times, and everything lines up really nicely, I think you have improved on it!
One thing I noticed - there wasn't a zealot on hold pos to protect against zergling runbys. By the time your 4 zealots leave, you will then have warp gate. Maybe it would be prudent to pylon block yourself in, leaving a probe out to build your third, should it come to that, and then break it down when your third is close to completion? You can warp in everything from pylons on the edge of your base...
Only reason I'm pointing it out is it happens to me once in a while (a runby) and I always feel foolish...
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Well, I've been having a lot of trouble lately, here is a replay against a master player, really had a tough time when he didn't go for a fast third...
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Ayreon_vs_(P)Matrius/19013
I'm assuming that its just macro/lack of tech, but I feel like I couldn't tech up because of the thread of muties...
suggestions welcome.
thanks
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On April 01 2012 05:11 matrius wrote:Well, I've been having a lot of trouble lately, here is a replay against a master player, really had a tough time when he didn't go for a fast third... http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Ayreon_vs_(P)Matrius/19013I'm assuming that its just macro/lack of tech, but I feel like I couldn't tech up because of the thread of muties... suggestions welcome. thanks
ive found just throw down a robo and tech aswell, like collosi or voids, you only do the 7:10/blink 1-2 punch if he does a fast 3rd
edit +1, youre 7 zealot 7:10 push needs to hit a minute earlier, 8min onward is what zerg prepares for, the 7 zealots is to get there before they start pumping units/spines, work on that, also take 3rd faster, the best way to deal with mutas is to push away the harass while macroing, so take your 3rd sooner, anyway, yeah, some stuff is hard to deal with
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wow. i kind of started off looking at this guide negatively, but now that im watching the reps i realize that it's really good. i love how you keep a presence on the map, making it impossible for the zerg to drone while you can build up a strong economy
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On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future.
-I like the 16 Pylon then 17 Nexus. Small, but nice adjustment (makes full use of the 3rd chrono on Probes too which I like).
-2-base mass speedling is a threat to that build order on maps where there's no ramp you can wall-off at your natural since you get such a late cannon, but you should be able to make a cannon instead of the 4th Zealot and be ok I think (may depend on the rush distance not sure exactly). Regardless though I do think it is safer to make a cannon first then the 4th zealot as that would make the build safer and would not mess with any of your timings (4th Zealot should still pop out in time before you move out).
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On April 01 2012 06:57 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future. -I like the 16 Pylon then 17 Nexus. Small, but nice adjustment (makes full use of the 3rd chrono on Probes too which I like). -2-base mass speedling is a threat to that build order on maps where there's no ramp you can wall-off at your natural since you get such a late cannon, but you should be able to make a cannon instead of the 4th Zealot and be ok I think (may depend on the rush distance not sure exactly). Regardless though I do think it is safer to make a cannon first then the 4th zealot as that would make the build safer and would not mess with any of your timings (4th Zealot should still pop out in time before you move out).
why not before 3rd if he 14/14s, youre still ahead, and youre a bit safer vs gas play?
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On April 01 2012 07:26 Thiole wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 06:57 Skyro wrote:On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future. -I like the 16 Pylon then 17 Nexus. Small, but nice adjustment (makes full use of the 3rd chrono on Probes too which I like). -2-base mass speedling is a threat to that build order on maps where there's no ramp you can wall-off at your natural since you get such a late cannon, but you should be able to make a cannon instead of the 4th Zealot and be ok I think (may depend on the rush distance not sure exactly). Regardless though I do think it is safer to make a cannon first then the 4th zealot as that would make the build safer and would not mess with any of your timings (4th Zealot should still pop out in time before you move out). why not before 3rd if he 14/14s, youre still ahead, and youre a bit safer vs gas play?
Are you asking me why not before cannon before 3rd Zealot? It's because the forge in his revised build order is not done at that time. It appears so far to me that you only need cannon(s) early for mass speedlings or baneling bust which you should have up in time to defend if zerg opened with any expand before gas build.
From a 14/14 gas first opening ling speed finishes ~5m. Thus if you see scout a 14/14 opening by zerg I'd probably cut Probes @ 20 to get a forge up (before core) asap to have a cannon up to defend in time.
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I am curious why you would choose to do the Blink transition rather than go VR directly after CC finishes. The only way he is going to be able to stop your Zeal timing is with Roaches, and if he dumps a lot into them he would be able to kill you straight off. With a VR you would be able to stop him from pressuring with Roaches, kill some OLs, harass and it would allow you to grab a 3rd by the 8:00 minute mark. Even if worst case scenario he goes mutalisks you will be up 3 bases to 2 and can simply cannon up a ton and transition into Blink Colossi.
I am probably missing something. Can you explain to me the reasoning?
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On April 01 2012 07:38 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 07:26 Thiole wrote:On April 01 2012 06:57 Skyro wrote:On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future. -I like the 16 Pylon then 17 Nexus. Small, but nice adjustment (makes full use of the 3rd chrono on Probes too which I like). -2-base mass speedling is a threat to that build order on maps where there's no ramp you can wall-off at your natural since you get such a late cannon, but you should be able to make a cannon instead of the 4th Zealot and be ok I think (may depend on the rush distance not sure exactly). Regardless though I do think it is safer to make a cannon first then the 4th zealot as that would make the build safer and would not mess with any of your timings (4th Zealot should still pop out in time before you move out). why not before 3rd if he 14/14s, youre still ahead, and youre a bit safer vs gas play? Are you asking me why not before cannon before 3rd Zealot? It's because the forge in his revised build order is not done at that time. It appears so far to me that you only need cannon(s) early for mass speedlings or baneling bust which you should have up in time to defend if zerg opened with any expand before gas build. From a 14/14 gas first opening ling speed finishes ~5m. Thus if you see scout a 14/14 opening by zerg I'd probably cut Probes @ 20 to get a forge up (before core) asap to have a cannon up to defend in time.
that was what i was getting at, forge before core if he goes gas before expand?
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On April 01 2012 08:46 Thiole wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 07:38 Skyro wrote:On April 01 2012 07:26 Thiole wrote:On April 01 2012 06:57 Skyro wrote:On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future. -I like the 16 Pylon then 17 Nexus. Small, but nice adjustment (makes full use of the 3rd chrono on Probes too which I like). -2-base mass speedling is a threat to that build order on maps where there's no ramp you can wall-off at your natural since you get such a late cannon, but you should be able to make a cannon instead of the 4th Zealot and be ok I think (may depend on the rush distance not sure exactly). Regardless though I do think it is safer to make a cannon first then the 4th zealot as that would make the build safer and would not mess with any of your timings (4th Zealot should still pop out in time before you move out). why not before 3rd if he 14/14s, youre still ahead, and youre a bit safer vs gas play? Are you asking me why not before cannon before 3rd Zealot? It's because the forge in his revised build order is not done at that time. It appears so far to me that you only need cannon(s) early for mass speedlings or baneling bust which you should have up in time to defend if zerg opened with any expand before gas build. From a 14/14 gas first opening ling speed finishes ~5m. Thus if you see scout a 14/14 opening by zerg I'd probably cut Probes @ 20 to get a forge up (before core) asap to have a cannon up to defend in time. that was what i was getting at, forge before core if he goes gas before expand?
That is what I currently do. Not sure what OP does however. If you go forge before core @ 20 supply you throw it down @ 3:35 with a cannon done @ 5 mins.
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On April 01 2012 09:34 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 08:46 Thiole wrote:On April 01 2012 07:38 Skyro wrote:On April 01 2012 07:26 Thiole wrote:On April 01 2012 06:57 Skyro wrote:On March 31 2012 16:11 Adonminus wrote:9 pylon
13 gate
16 pylon (low)
17 nexus
18 zealot (chrono)
20 assimilator
22 zealot
24 core (low)
24 pylon (mostly low, depends on map)
26 forge (high or low, depends on map)
26 zealot
Warp @100% core
30 zealot
+1 weapon @100% forge
36 x2 gates
38 pylon
40 twilight council
42 x2 AssimilatorsExplanations and notes: -Pylon before nexus allows less probe cut -Zealots are able to hold most attacks with the help of walls, positioning or probe help. This variation also walls faster on certain maps. (Mostly with: Core-Pylon-Forge like on shakuras or cloud kingdom, or Core-2 Pylons on antiga). -Practice the chrono distribution on core and forge so it supports your timings. -Only 10-15 second delay in push, however same effect and much much better macro. -You push with 4 zealots and warp 3 zealots making it 7, so the push is of the same power but we gain 150 mineral from not build a 4th gate which greatly boosts our macro. -Continue with the build described previously in the guide. (Add twilight council, add 2 assimilators, start +2 and blink and push at 10-11 min while getting robo and 3rd) -Take 4th assimilator in case of early roaches so you have more gas for stalkers to defend pushes. -I have noticed that immortal high templar compositions are popular nowadays, you could easily transition to one since you both have robo and twilight council. Here's a replay as an example: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)OGWutsZurg_vs_(P)Adonminus/19008 Guide has been updated with a more refined build which greatly boosts your economical capabilities and number of probes. I don't have a lot of replays currently, but I will post more replays in the future. -I like the 16 Pylon then 17 Nexus. Small, but nice adjustment (makes full use of the 3rd chrono on Probes too which I like). -2-base mass speedling is a threat to that build order on maps where there's no ramp you can wall-off at your natural since you get such a late cannon, but you should be able to make a cannon instead of the 4th Zealot and be ok I think (may depend on the rush distance not sure exactly). Regardless though I do think it is safer to make a cannon first then the 4th zealot as that would make the build safer and would not mess with any of your timings (4th Zealot should still pop out in time before you move out). why not before 3rd if he 14/14s, youre still ahead, and youre a bit safer vs gas play? Are you asking me why not before cannon before 3rd Zealot? It's because the forge in his revised build order is not done at that time. It appears so far to me that you only need cannon(s) early for mass speedlings or baneling bust which you should have up in time to defend if zerg opened with any expand before gas build. From a 14/14 gas first opening ling speed finishes ~5m. Thus if you see scout a 14/14 opening by zerg I'd probably cut Probes @ 20 to get a forge up (before core) asap to have a cannon up to defend in time. that was what i was getting at, forge before core if he goes gas before expand? That is what I currently do. Not sure what OP does however. If you go forge before core @ 20 supply you throw it down @ 3:35 with a cannon done @ 5 mins.
the only reason to do this is on a gas opening from zerg, if he does a speedling expand ( sees nexus and either A tries to hit with mass speedling , or B tries to take a fast 3rd, the 4gate 7zealot +1 timing hits roughly at 8 mins, but you still do equal damamge because he set himself behind in economy,
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Hi,
I'm very interested in the answer for this, as recently I've played a few games that involved getting overrun by roach spam, once with a nydus worm kicked in just for laughs.
Thanks,
Mark
On April 01 2012 07:41 Peterblue wrote:
I am curious why you would choose to do the Blink transition rather than go VR directly after CC finishes. The only way he is going to be able to stop your Zeal timing is with Roaches, and if he dumps a lot into them he would be able to kill you straight off. With a VR you would be able to stop him from pressuring with Roaches, kill some OLs, harass and it would allow you to grab a 3rd by the 8:00 minute mark. Even if worst case scenario he goes mutalisks you will be up 3 bases to 2 and can simply cannon up a ton and transition into Blink Colossi.
I am probably missing something. Can you explain to me the reasoning?
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EPT
