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On February 26 2012 18:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You really shouldn't name this after yourself, as you're simply using a combination of other builds. The gate/forge opener is questionable, but the bigger concern is that the 4 gate +1 zealot timing is the first thing every zerg will scout and prepare for, along with the +2 blink follow up. If you attack, it's weaker than an 8 gate +2 after an FFE, while either way the zerg can easily drone up, then deny your 3rd forever.
You may pick up wins against players who don't react properly to the opener (not get 3rd hatch, not drone up, etc), but if any of the aggression fails you won't simply be able to take and defend a third except perhaps on maps that zergs should veto anyway where the third base is free.
+1 zealots at 7 minute kill the fast third no problem .
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On February 28 2012 05:39 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 18:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You really shouldn't name this after yourself, as you're simply using a combination of other builds. The gate/forge opener is questionable, but the bigger concern is that the 4 gate +1 zealot timing is the first thing every zerg will scout and prepare for, along with the +2 blink follow up. If you attack, it's weaker than an 8 gate +2 after an FFE, while either way the zerg can easily drone up, then deny your 3rd forever.
You may pick up wins against players who don't react properly to the opener (not get 3rd hatch, not drone up, etc), but if any of the aggression fails you won't simply be able to take and defend a third except perhaps on maps that zergs should veto anyway where the third base is free. +1 zealots at 7 minute kill the fast third no problem .
You don't seem to realize that this exact timing was popular in the past and suddenly every pro stopped doing it because all the zergs figured it out. Some people have still tried it (typically only Europeans) and it has failed every time in recent tournaments. There was even a clever variation by Oz that included cannons with the attack, but that was also shut down handily, by idra no less.
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On February 28 2012 07:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:39 xsnac wrote:On February 26 2012 18:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You really shouldn't name this after yourself, as you're simply using a combination of other builds. The gate/forge opener is questionable, but the bigger concern is that the 4 gate +1 zealot timing is the first thing every zerg will scout and prepare for, along with the +2 blink follow up. If you attack, it's weaker than an 8 gate +2 after an FFE, while either way the zerg can easily drone up, then deny your 3rd forever.
You may pick up wins against players who don't react properly to the opener (not get 3rd hatch, not drone up, etc), but if any of the aggression fails you won't simply be able to take and defend a third except perhaps on maps that zergs should veto anyway where the third base is free. +1 zealots at 7 minute kill the fast third no problem . You don't seem to realize that this exact timing was popular in the past and suddenly every pro stopped doing it because all the zergs figured it out. Some people have still tried it (typically only Europeans) and it has failed every time in recent tournaments. There was even a clever variation by Oz that included cannons with the attack, but that was also shut down handily, by idra no less.
even if is shuted down you force zerg use larvas for army wich he dosent want at 7 minutes mark , you force him to mine gas and get roach waren aswel if he want to keep third alive , speedlings are cutted in half by zealots at 7 minute mark , and i assure you roaches get out at 8:30 not at 7. and btw most of ppl do variation of 4 gate , !!4gate dt!! , !!4 gate stargate!! , and is still very popular .
forgot to say a REAL killed this asembly MOON with 4 gate DT .
RLY IT STOPED WORKING .
Btw if zerg prepares for 4 gate you can just abuse that go for +2 7 gate blink stalker and is no chance he can hold that with : low drone count cuz he invested so much in army to defend an attack that never came ,
Mc did it to losira this gsl .
p.s. thanks for misinforming people .
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This may sound like a silly question and I hope it hasn't already been answered, but what do you do if the Zerg does a ling+nydus all-in?
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On February 28 2012 08:46 Kaoii wrote:
This may sound like a silly question and I hope it hasn't already been answered, but what do you do if the Zerg does a ling+nydus all-in?
you spread pylons to scout the nydus and kill it.
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On February 28 2012 08:46 Kaoii wrote:
This may sound like a silly question and I hope it hasn't already been answered, but what do you do if the Zerg does a ling+nydus all-in?
you hold it , even if is not scouted you can hold it with zealots enough you micro well .
play with sound so you hear and instantly move zealots in base and start killing it .
if possible put pylon on area you dont have visibility and if you see zerg keep mining gas after he got 100 . put a probe on patroll .
p.s. you can kill nydus with probes only !
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On February 28 2012 09:00 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:46 Kaoii wrote:
This may sound like a silly question and I hope it hasn't already been answered, but what do you do if the Zerg does a ling+nydus all-in? you hold it , even if is not scouted you can hold it with zealots enough you micro well . play with sound so you hear and instantly move zealots in base and start killing it . if possible put pylon on area you dont have visibility and if you see zerg keep mining gas after he got 100 . put a probe on patroll . p.s. you can kill nydus with probes only !
Ok, you're right you should be able to hold it with Zealots and decent micro, but the problem is with this 7:10 timing you have to move your three zealots out around ~6:00. If the Nydus hits your base in that window, your zealots could be halfway across the map. What then?
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On February 28 2012 09:08 Kaoii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:00 xsnac wrote:On February 28 2012 08:46 Kaoii wrote:
This may sound like a silly question and I hope it hasn't already been answered, but what do you do if the Zerg does a ling+nydus all-in? you hold it , even if is not scouted you can hold it with zealots enough you micro well . play with sound so you hear and instantly move zealots in base and start killing it . if possible put pylon on area you dont have visibility and if you see zerg keep mining gas after he got 100 . put a probe on patroll . p.s. you can kill nydus with probes only ! Ok, you're right you should be able to hold it with Zealots and decent micro, but the problem is with this 7:10 timing you have to move your three zealots out around ~6:00. If the Nydus hits your base in that window, your zealots could be halfway across the map. What then?
i personaly wont do that timing if i see no third , and i scout third with first zealot when second pop-out . that timing is to stop or delay overdrone-zergs third base. so if i see no third i can keep my zealots in base and il be safe against nydus . but again you are safe vs nydus with probes only . 7 probes kill nydus very fast.
speedlings and see zerg still mine gas after 100 gas taken can make you aware of : muta/ling , infestor/ling , nydus .
if no 3'd then it can be 2 base muta/ling and nydus . and you can tech up to blink while turtle in base with zealots to be safe against nydus .
im not an expert but is the way i do and the way i think about it .
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are you chronoing upgrades non stop?
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i had a question about the last replay. When you estbalish your third you also get a robo facility, what made you switch your mind about focusing on the 12-18 stalker push, or is the robo a standard tech building you can get at that point?
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This build is genius! I finally feel solid in PvZ
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lol the best bit about the game vs that GM zerg was the very end
'jesus fuck you whore'
lmao that made me laugh
that was a nice way of playing, you were so willing to trade armies, collosus included. Only think i noticeed was it could have maybe done with some obs to get rid of creep and you could have used a warp prism to reinforce where your army was. Alot of the time you were having to warp in at your natural while your army was at his 3rd or w/e. I know its hard to take time away from the precious collosus though 
i might try this on ladder today, although i guess alot of zergs will just make 20 speedlings at the start and kill me
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I dont know about the 1gate FE though...
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On February 28 2012 07:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:39 xsnac wrote:On February 26 2012 18:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You really shouldn't name this after yourself, as you're simply using a combination of other builds. The gate/forge opener is questionable, but the bigger concern is that the 4 gate +1 zealot timing is the first thing every zerg will scout and prepare for, along with the +2 blink follow up. If you attack, it's weaker than an 8 gate +2 after an FFE, while either way the zerg can easily drone up, then deny your 3rd forever.
You may pick up wins against players who don't react properly to the opener (not get 3rd hatch, not drone up, etc), but if any of the aggression fails you won't simply be able to take and defend a third except perhaps on maps that zergs should veto anyway where the third base is free. +1 zealots at 7 minute kill the fast third no problem . You don't seem to realize that this exact timing was popular in the past and suddenly every pro stopped doing it because all the zergs figured it out. Some people have still tried it (typically only Europeans) and it has failed every time in recent tournaments. There was even a clever variation by Oz that included cannons with the attack, but that was also shut down handily, by idra no less.
You are confusing 2 similar looking builds and showing a complete lack of knowledge on both of them.
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love this build, tried it against master zerg, works fine  )
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You don't seem to realize that this exact timing was popular in the past and suddenly every pro stopped doing it because all the zergs figured it out. Some people have still tried it (typically only Europeans) and it has failed every time in recent tournaments. There was even a clever variation by Oz that included cannons with the attack, but that was also shut down handily, by idra no less.
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This have a different timing that 4gate+1 or 4+1 SG , this hits 1 min earlier so it means normally no roaches , lesser lings and more zergs outguard. The real deal of this build is that zerg think that it is zealot standard pressure so he dont expect +2 blink stalker later and get demolished.
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I ran a test game against a high GM zerg partner after I had the bo down and the roaches were out by 7. Asked why and the answer was because since no FFe and the front can be scouted easily (where the gates are added as a wall), then the attack is quite simple to scout and easy to give a calculated response. This allowed 50 drones to 40 probes at the end of the attack. It just shows that against (very) good people, you're giving them the tools to beat you. Normally protoss hides tech or abuses sentries to get an edge, forcing the zerg player to be unsure of how to respond.. but this build lets them counter with a wave of roaches then a wave of speedlings, rally to your base after killing (only 7) zealots, and then a wave of drones, making them be much farther ahead.
Also basic micro on creep (and decently off creep) with roaches makes zealots useless.
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On February 29 2012 02:48 Eifersuchtig wrote:
I ran a test game against a high GM zerg partner after I had the bo down and the roaches were out by 7. Asked why and the answer was because since no FFe and the front can be scouted easily (where the gates are added as a wall), then the attack is quite simple to scout and easy to give a calculated response. This allowed 50 drones to 40 probes at the end of the attack. It just shows that against (very) good people, you're giving them the tools to beat you. Normally protoss hides tech or abuses sentries to get an edge, forcing the zerg player to be unsure of how to respond.. but this build lets them counter with a wave of roaches then a wave of speedlings, rally to your base after killing (only 7) zealots, and then a wave of drones, making them be much farther ahead.
Also basic micro on creep (and decently off creep) with roaches makes zealots useless.
Could I try to face him too and test it myself? Perhaps there's some improvements I could do to the build. However I think simply pulling the zealots and making a faster blink stalker push by saving your minerals would counter that. Still I would like to pratice vs gms, so you could organize me a game. I have both eu and na accounts so no problem. Just need to find a good time for it, I don't have a lot of time lately.
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you dont make any sentries, care to tell me how do you stop allins(baneling bust) or mass roach?
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Recently, I've been seeing this strategy a lot more on the ladder. The current Zerg metagame is to drone hard until 60-70 drones and then go very agressive with Roach/Ling. The zealot push should arrive when Zerg is still pumping drones so it can do alot of damage.
However, the entire remainder of the game hinges on that early attack. If it does little damage the Roach wave will arrive before Blink is completed and they just destroy the Toss natural. Even with blink burrowed tunneling roaches can do ALOT of damage since you won't have any detection once the few cannons have been destroyed.
In a sense, this strategy can be reduced to "destroy a hatch with a wierd Zealot timing, then do whatever you want since ur waaay ahead". Once the build become more popular and the first push is deflected, I feel this strategy will lose its use.
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EPT
