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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
Italy12246 Posts
On May 18 2012 06:48 NrGmonk wrote:I've had 2 recent innovations that have helped me greatly with this. The first is a particular build, found in games 1 and 3 of this series. Instead of getting a faster 3rd and then getting immortals, this build gets a faster robo and a few gates up before getting a 3rd, delaying this 3rd for a bit longer. The increased immortal count(usually 1-2 more) combined with a bit more sentry energy really go a long way in the defense. This build is currently one of my 3 main macro builds in PvZ. The second "innovation" was something I came up by watching Puzzle and Huk. Instead of trying to sim city your third on certain maps, instead sim city the ramp leading to your natural. Maps this is applicable on include Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, and Atlantis Spaceship(when you take the rich 3rd). On each of these maps, there are problems with sim citying your 3rd for different reasons. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd has 2 entrances to sim. Daybreak's 3rd is relatively wide to fully sim and it doesn't have a ramp so roaches can easily pick off gateways if you try to do it that way. Altantis Spaceship just has an easily accessible rich 3rd you can abuse if you sim the ramp near your natural. So what you do is sim your natural and position your army at your 3rd unless you see a major attack coming from to your natural. Also, you can rally immortals to your natural to act as cannons. This game is a good example of the type of sim I'm talking about.
Out of curiosity, what are your other two macro builds? I assume one is stargate with fast third; what about the other build? I still struggle quite a bit in playing macro games off ffe because i suck 
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United States8476 Posts
On May 18 2012 07:16 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 06:48 NrGmonk wrote:I've had 2 recent innovations that have helped me greatly with this. The first is a particular build, found in games 1 and 3 of this series. Instead of getting a faster 3rd and then getting immortals, this build gets a faster robo and a few gates up before getting a 3rd, delaying this 3rd for a bit longer. The increased immortal count(usually 1-2 more) combined with a bit more sentry energy really go a long way in the defense. This build is currently one of my 3 main macro builds in PvZ. The second "innovation" was something I came up by watching Puzzle and Huk. Instead of trying to sim city your third on certain maps, instead sim city the ramp leading to your natural. Maps this is applicable on include Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, and Atlantis Spaceship(when you take the rich 3rd). On each of these maps, there are problems with sim citying your 3rd for different reasons. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd has 2 entrances to sim. Daybreak's 3rd is relatively wide to fully sim and it doesn't have a ramp so roaches can easily pick off gateways if you try to do it that way. Altantis Spaceship just has an easily accessible rich 3rd you can abuse if you sim the ramp near your natural. So what you do is sim your natural and position your army at your 3rd unless you see a major attack coming from to your natural. Also, you can rally immortals to your natural to act as cannons. This game is a good example of the type of sim I'm talking about. Out of curiosity, what are your other two macro builds? I assume one is stargate with fast third; what about the other build? I still struggle quite a bit in playing macro games off ffe because i suck
Without going into specifics, one is a stargate into fast 3rd build that is designed with maxed roaches in mind. The other is a pressure into expand build. Both of these builds take their thirds around 10:00-10:30. I've recently been moving away from super fast 3rd builds.
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I've been trying to mix in some 1-base all-ins with my macro play against this style (literally 5 out of the 5 past zergs play VERY greedy with this style with minimal scouting/scouting I can easily pick off). I tried a few 4 gates and a 5 gate once but it seems that trying to fake them with the forge/gateway/cannon at the front delays the aggression too much to where any competent zerg can just pump roaches to eventually outproduce me.
Any one have any idea of some other cheeses I could use? Maybe impossible?
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Fast 3rd builds are strong vs this.
Depending on map of course, but on a map like cloud kingdom a 3rd off 1 gate is a good counter to this build.
You end up having a gate/nexus wall at 3rd and gates on top of ramp at nat. You want 6-8 sentry on top of ramp at nat and then everything else at 3rd. And some sentry at 3rd too. I've played some teammates who requested practice and did that build on cloud and held very well. I was able to get to 180 at 11:20 and kept rallying lings and roaches and did absolutely 0 damage except some sentry kills. That saying, cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg vs protoss. So don't take this as a savior of builds.
I believe my friend went:
forge
nexus
gate
cannon
nexus
5x gate
robo
2x gate
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On May 19 2012 04:52 TyrionSC2 wrote:
Fast 3rd builds are strong vs this.
Depending on map of course, but on a map like cloud kingdom a 3rd off 1 gate is a good counter to this build.
You end up having a gate/nexus wall at 3rd and gates on top of ramp at nat. You want 6-8 sentry on top of ramp at nat and then everything else at 3rd. And some sentry at 3rd too. I've played some teammates who requested practice and did that build on cloud and held very well. I was able to get to 180 at 11:20 and kept rallying lings and roaches and did absolutely 0 damage except some sentry kills. That saying, cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg vs protoss. So don't take this as a savior of builds.
I believe my friend went:
forge
nexus
gate
cannon
nexus
5x gate
robo
2x gate
Well... yeah, but it loses to almost anything else, even if you scout a third base from the zerg any amount of lings will deny your third and put you behind.
edit: even without speed.
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On June 07 2012 07:45 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 04:52 TyrionSC2 wrote:
Fast 3rd builds are strong vs this.
Depending on map of course, but on a map like cloud kingdom a 3rd off 1 gate is a good counter to this build.
You end up having a gate/nexus wall at 3rd and gates on top of ramp at nat. You want 6-8 sentry on top of ramp at nat and then everything else at 3rd. And some sentry at 3rd too. I've played some teammates who requested practice and did that build on cloud and held very well. I was able to get to 180 at 11:20 and kept rallying lings and roaches and did absolutely 0 damage except some sentry kills. That saying, cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg vs protoss. So don't take this as a savior of builds.
I believe my friend went:
forge
nexus
gate
cannon
nexus
5x gate
robo
2x gate Well... yeah, but it loses to almost anything else, even if you scout a third base from the zerg any amount of lings will deny your third and put you behind. edit: even without speed.
Not true. Fast thirds are viable when they open fast third hatch.
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United States8476 Posts
On June 08 2012 22:34 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 06:48 NrGmonk wrote:I've had 2 recent innovations that have helped me greatly with this. The first is a particular build, found in games 1 and 3 of this series. Instead of getting a faster 3rd and then getting immortals, this build gets a faster robo and a few gates up before getting a 3rd, delaying this 3rd for a bit longer. The increased immortal count(usually 1-2 more) combined with a bit more sentry energy really go a long way in the defense. This build is currently one of my 3 main macro builds in PvZ. The second "innovation" was something I came up by watching Puzzle and Huk. Instead of trying to sim city your third on certain maps, instead sim city the ramp leading to your natural. Maps this is applicable on include Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, and Atlantis Spaceship(when you take the rich 3rd). On each of these maps, there are problems with sim citying your 3rd for different reasons. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd has 2 entrances to sim. Daybreak's 3rd is relatively wide to fully sim and it doesn't have a ramp so roaches can easily pick off gateways if you try to do it that way. Altantis Spaceship just has an easily accessible rich 3rd you can abuse if you sim the ramp near your natural. So what you do is sim your natural and position your army at your 3rd unless you see a major attack coming from to your natural. Also, you can rally immortals to your natural to act as cannons. This game is a good example of the type of sim I'm talking about. You're basically going for the same composition that NonY goes for with his 2gate Sentry Expand, and you're probably expanding around the same time (~10 minutes?). The only difference is that going for a FFE allows the Zerg to take a third base much faster than if you go for a Gateway expand... EDIT: I've seen White-Ra going for FFE -> 1gate -> Fast Third -> Additional Gateways/Robo. He usually has more than enough Stalkers/Sentries/Immortals to defend his third base by the time a Roach push hits, and a Zerg player going for the typical fast third base can't really do anything to punish him for taking such a fast third base because they don't have gas (and so don't have Speedlings). If you're going to play this Stalker/Sentry/Immortal style from a FFE then you should probably do it this way instead of waiting for Immortals to take a third base. Why? Because if you're going for a "late" third (~10 minutes) then you might as well open with a Gateway expand because at least that way you indirectly (or aggressively if you're so inclined) slow the Zerg player's economy down. I guess this only works on maps with an easy to defend third base, though. Cloud Kingdom is by far the map he does it on most.
-_- Why are you bringing up gateway expand vs FFE in this? FFE into robotics into 3rd and its variations are by far the most common PvZ build on Korea atm, while almost no one goes 1 gate into robo into 3rd. You can't just claim that 1 gate FE gets you better economy relative to the Zergs without definitive proof/evidence and when the vast vast majority seem to think otherwise. If you really want to talk about this, do some research. Do both builds against a top Zerg player and chart their responses. Measure both your economies at certain benchmarks and make a cute graph.
Also, 2 gate sentry expand into really fast robotics is not a safe build on many maps and you wouldn't get close to the immortal count you would with a FFE into robo build.
There are also a lot of reasons FFE and take a 3rd off 1 gate isn't preferred over robotics expand. With robo expand, you get more immortals, sentries with higher energy, and an appearance of the possibility to all-in. I've tried both builds, but because of these factors, I actually think the immortal expand does better versus roach attacks. Oh and you also don't auto die to fast speedlings.
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Personally i still feel that an early warpin at 7:30 is enough to force zerg to cut their econ enough that your follow up will always be decent, as it delays their max push by a whole minute
8:00 just isn't good enough though, it's too slow, meaning that nexus first is pretty much a priority (unfortunately) which is very easily blocked by a drone, so you're going to have to pull 2 probes to get your nexus down if he drone scouts
with a warpin and +1 at 7:30 he has to cut drones at 50 and start getting units for 8:00 in time to defend if he doesn't want to lose his hatchery (that's if he cuts perfectly)
From there you easily have the gas to get sentries and take a third, and his push is delayed enough for you to do so.
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Though this is a fairly aggressive way of expanding, i'm pretty sure that faster and more passive expands exist if you dont mind facing a max attack at 11:30
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I've been having trouble with this, and it's helped me out alot imo going 2 base colo
User was warned for this post
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On June 09 2012 01:33 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021this is the future and the key to beat zerg you need to expand before his ecnomy and his tech (lingspeed and roaches) kick in then it s safe and you can some kinda be even with the zergs economy check out my guide -.-
Sorry, is not offense, but do you have some kind of narcissim??
I alredy posted in your thread politely recommending this amazing thread, and you answered with zero sense to what i said.
You come with a build that have been discused to dead in this thread the last 2 months and by much more qualified people.
And then you come to this thread and state that "your" build is the "future" and key to beat Z?? WTF
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The only things I've found working out are either two base pushes. Or stargate play. This deals with the two biggest problems to a decent extent. I'm sure my builds arent optomized and I dont have the best macro but its the only thing I've found works vs stephano style. single or double stargate play Ive found both work double stargate play goes well into skytoss, wheras single goes well into robo collosus play
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On June 08 2012 18:41 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:45 Clarity_nl wrote:On May 19 2012 04:52 TyrionSC2 wrote:
Fast 3rd builds are strong vs this.
Depending on map of course, but on a map like cloud kingdom a 3rd off 1 gate is a good counter to this build.
You end up having a gate/nexus wall at 3rd and gates on top of ramp at nat. You want 6-8 sentry on top of ramp at nat and then everything else at 3rd. And some sentry at 3rd too. I've played some teammates who requested practice and did that build on cloud and held very well. I was able to get to 180 at 11:20 and kept rallying lings and roaches and did absolutely 0 damage except some sentry kills. That saying, cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg vs protoss. So don't take this as a savior of builds.
I believe my friend went:
forge
nexus
gate
cannon
nexus
5x gate
robo
2x gate Well... yeah, but it loses to almost anything else, even if you scout a third base from the zerg any amount of lings will deny your third and put you behind. edit: even without speed. Not true. Fast thirds are viable when they open fast third hatch.
Fast thirds are viable when the zerg takes his third ~4 min, yes.
But not off of 1 gate.... it just dies.... I would love to see a replay where the protoss plays this way, the zerg pressures after seeing the P third (after having taking his own third) and the protoss holding. I can't even comprehend what two zealots and stalker/sentry are going to do against 26-30 lings. Or 8 roaches.
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On June 09 2012 01:33 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021this is the future and the key to beat zerg you need to expand before his ecnomy and his tech (lingspeed and roaches) kick in then it s safe and you can some kinda be even with the zergs economy check out my guide -.-
Post some replays vs good players.
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People seem to be confusing several problems
1) what OP is asking: how to beat the build consistenly
2) making that work with a larger game plan
Both very different problems but right now 80% of zergs seem to do stephano style so just achieving 1 is probably more efficient than people worrying about early ling builds.
However there is no point in shooting down ideas becayuse they may meet condition 1 but not 2 ... because they need a lot of play time to figure out the branches to maybe meet 2.
Its really easy to point out problems ... its really hard to actually figure out if they are real problems or only apparent due to your finite mind.
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I don't think that the Gateway Expand is really relevant to this thread. Regardless of whether or not it's viable or good or terrible, the whole point of playing that style is to have units earlier in the interest of map control and pressure--or at least the potential to do so at times when the FFE would not be able to, yet. So if you're Gateway expanding instead of doing a FFE, the Zerg isn't giong to play the same way and fast thirds into Stephano-style Roach max attacks...well, obviously that won't play out the same way. It's a completely different opening game from the start, and it really has to be treated as such IMO. I don't pretend to be an uber-grandmaster at this game, nor do I pretend to know everything. But it seems pretty clear to me that, if you're usig a Gateway Expand to open the game, you're deciding that it's more important to bank Sentry energy than to get a higher early probe count, since that's literally the trade-off.
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On June 09 2012 19:00 aintthatfunny wrote:Post some replays vs good players.
played vs ec elvis
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On June 10 2012 00:51 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 19:00 aintthatfunny wrote:On June 09 2012 01:33 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021this is the future and the key to beat zerg you need to expand before his ecnomy and his tech (lingspeed and roaches) kick in then it s safe and you can some kinda be even with the zergs economy check out my guide -.- Post some replays vs good players. played vs ec elvis
Please keep talk about your build in the other thread.
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EPT
