On June 15 2012 15:53 Greenhit wrote: ZenexLife vs Im_seed was a good example of that in TSL4 qualifier
Another one is Seed vs Hyun on Entombed Valley on TSL qualifiers Round 5. Its kinda scary when zerg sees Tos getting a fast 3rd and responding by getting a 4th with Macro hatch and drop. Seed could have died so easily without those Force Fields around drops. Roach Drop is getting very common lately and seems to be another phase of the Roach max army.
Just now in the EWM:
FXOWhale vs SlayerS_Brown game 1.
Whale does a roach drop in main kills nexus while killing the third base with ling roach and tossing lings into the nat on daybreak.
I really don't know what protoss is supposed to do, forcefields do nothing against the drops and brown was able to trade zealots for roaches and drones early in the game. Zerg was only at 112 supply at 11 minutes with only 2 queens on 3 hatch. I think brown lost 10 zealots but killed a queen 7 drones and 12 roaches.
I would like to see replays of that, but it sounds like the only way to not die is to either have picture perfect army splits in 3 places (highly unlikely to happen), or intercept the drop when it's on the way with stargate units...and even then that might not work, as Mondragon showed us so long ago.
I find it more weird that we have a 76 page thread on a build that has gone quite out of fashion in Korea, where no one seemed to complain in the first place. MC demonstrated just how all in it was in Red Bull LAN, and that it is simply a learn to play issue on the most part.
I would like to ask what overmaking cannons does and whether it is worth it. I still think Zerg maxing on roaches and nothing with them is a victory for Protoss as long as they took a third. Whenever I see lots of Protosses play, they will sometimes defend the roach pressure, but let Zerg get a 4th, spine wall and 15 broodlords before they take a 4th themselves. Why is getting a pre-emptive mothership so uncommon when Toss is playing passive, and why doesn't Toss execute the 3 base timing that hits before broodlords when there is a 5 minute timing window after the roach pressure where Toss can literally max out and go. You have an unbeatable death ball, use it.
I still don't understand how some Protoss players do neither a timing, nor get a pre-emptive mothership. Their army is untouchable outside broodlords anyway.
On June 17 2012 18:02 Micket wrote: I find it more weird that we have a 76 page thread on a build that has gone quite out of fashion in Korea, where no one seemed to complain in the first place. MC demonstrated just how all in it was in Red Bull LAN, and that it is simply a learn to play issue on the most part.
I would like to ask what overmaking cannons does and whether it is worth it. I still think Zerg maxing on roaches and nothing with them is a victory for Protoss as long as they took a third. Whenever I see lots of Protosses play, they will sometimes defend the roach pressure, but let Zerg get a 4th, spine wall and 15 broodlords before they take a 4th themselves. Why is getting a pre-emptive mothership so uncommon when Toss is playing passive, and why doesn't Toss execute the 3 base timing that hits before broodlords when there is a 5 minute timing window after the roach pressure where Toss can literally max out and go. You have an unbeatable death ball, use it.
I still don't understand how some Protoss players do neither a timing, nor get a pre-emptive mothership. Their army is untouchable outside broodlords anyway.
Funny you should mention the Red Bull Lan, because at that Lan, top Protosses Parting and Squirtle repeated died to the mass roach push even though they did builds specifically designed to counter it.
Find me a pro game where the Stephano Style Roach max fails, then Protoss sits on his ass and lets Zerg successfully tech to broods. I can only think of about maybe 1 game in which this happens.
On June 17 2012 18:02 Micket wrote: I find it more weird that we have a 76 page thread on a build that has gone quite out of fashion in Korea, where no one seemed to complain in the first place. MC demonstrated just how all in it was in Red Bull LAN, and that it is simply a learn to play issue on the most part.
I would like to ask what overmaking cannons does and whether it is worth it. I still think Zerg maxing on roaches and nothing with them is a victory for Protoss as long as they took a third. Whenever I see lots of Protosses play, they will sometimes defend the roach pressure, but let Zerg get a 4th, spine wall and 15 broodlords before they take a 4th themselves. Why is getting a pre-emptive mothership so uncommon when Toss is playing passive, and why doesn't Toss execute the 3 base timing that hits before broodlords when there is a 5 minute timing window after the roach pressure where Toss can literally max out and go. You have an unbeatable death ball, use it.
I still don't understand how some Protoss players do neither a timing, nor get a pre-emptive mothership. Their army is untouchable outside broodlords anyway.
Funny you should mention the Red Bull Lan, because top Protosses Parting and Squirtle repeated died to the mass roach push even though they did builds specifically designed to counter it.
Find me a pro game where the Stephano Style Roach max fails, then Protoss sits on his ass and lets Zerg successfully tech to broods. I can only think of about maybe 1 game in which this happens.
Yeah, you're right, they did die to it, and they majorly fucked up as well. Parting also died to the 2 medivac timing of MVP which has been a TvP staple build for a year.
Stephano vs White Ra IPL4 springs to mind at that as a game where White-Ra managed to throw a lead.
On June 17 2012 17:31 Masvidal wrote: I have no problem exploiting the current metagame to roll zergs in pvz. I have a 100% win ratio in pvz at high master level in pvz. If i got zerg opponents in every game id probably be rank 1 GM by now. There are SO many options as protoss to kill a 3 hatch before gas zerg, and almost every zerg plays this style. Its becoming laughably easy. I honestly have more trouble vs terran than vs zerg. I open FFEmost times, but sometimes I start out with an almost pvp style 4gate 2gas build with a warp prism and expand as i move out and kill drones, chase queens around, force them to leave 1 base to die, or force a roach warren up stupid early and macro up behind almost pointless aggression just for the sake of forcing him to not drone up. Even so, i still find ffe to be versatile as hell and the best way to open. At any point, if you can cut probes and throw up mass production and switch into a full on aggressive style while Z is in the dark and catch them offf guard, you should be able to either kill them or apply enough pressure to stop them from droning like mad and buy 5 minutes breathing room to expand, add more gates or even a 2nd robo and match them blow for blow. And, silly as it seems, even against the best zergs, you can ffe into 2 stargate mass cannon, skip warpgate for air upgrades, mass voidray to fleetbeacon and defensive mothership, addanother sg and cybercore, and justt kill hatches with mass vr carrier and take a 3rd, mass recall any time you like, and cover everything with cannons like its going out of style. The guy who made a thread about this was really onto something; ive been able to stay 3base and beat 6base zrgs who max on hydra infestor with a maxed VR carrier army by fighting by 15 cannons and killing bases recallingand repeating while adding more cannons. Having many styles ur comfortable playing vs z saves a snitload of headache.
On June 17 2012 18:02 Micket wrote: I find it more weird that we have a 76 page thread on a build that has gone quite out of fashion in Korea, where no one seemed to complain in the first place. MC demonstrated just how all in it was in Red Bull LAN, and that it is simply a learn to play issue on the most part.
I would like to ask what overmaking cannons does and whether it is worth it. I still think Zerg maxing on roaches and nothing with them is a victory for Protoss as long as they took a third. Whenever I see lots of Protosses play, they will sometimes defend the roach pressure, but let Zerg get a 4th, spine wall and 15 broodlords before they take a 4th themselves. Why is getting a pre-emptive mothership so uncommon when Toss is playing passive, and why doesn't Toss execute the 3 base timing that hits before broodlords when there is a 5 minute timing window after the roach pressure where Toss can literally max out and go. You have an unbeatable death ball, use it.
I still don't understand how some Protoss players do neither a timing, nor get a pre-emptive mothership. Their army is untouchable outside broodlords anyway.
Funny you should mention the Red Bull Lan, because top Protosses Parting and Squirtle repeated died to the mass roach push even though they did builds specifically designed to counter it.
Find me a pro game where the Stephano Style Roach max fails, then Protoss sits on his ass and lets Zerg successfully tech to broods. I can only think of about maybe 1 game in which this happens.
Yeah, you're right, they did die to it, and they majorly fucked up as well. Parting also died to the 2 medivac timing of MVP which has been a TvP staple build for a year.
Stephano vs White Ra IPL4 springs to mind at that as a game where White-Ra managed to throw a lead.
Edit: JYP DIMAGA on dual site at HSC4 as well.
Stephano vs White-ra was the only game I could think of too. I'll give you that one. IIRC, JYP vs Dimaga on dual sight had nothing to do with stephano roach max. JYP did throw a huge lead, but Dimaga opened roach ling infestor. Can you provide an example of another game where Protoss gets ahead from roach max and doesn't close it out? I agree that Protoss should be able to close it out if the roach max fails, but it just hasn't happened in a pro game yet as you're describing.
Parting did fuck up a lot in the game on Daybreak. Squirtle did not fuck up majorly though either on Antiga nor the first game on Cloud Kingdom before the regame, and still lost/was put into an unfavorable position.
On June 17 2012 18:02 Micket wrote: I find it more weird that we have a 76 page thread on a build that has gone quite out of fashion in Korea, where no one seemed to complain in the first place. MC demonstrated just how all in it was in Red Bull LAN, and that it is simply a learn to play issue on the most part.
I would like to ask what overmaking cannons does and whether it is worth it. I still think Zerg maxing on roaches and nothing with them is a victory for Protoss as long as they took a third. Whenever I see lots of Protosses play, they will sometimes defend the roach pressure, but let Zerg get a 4th, spine wall and 15 broodlords before they take a 4th themselves. Why is getting a pre-emptive mothership so uncommon when Toss is playing passive, and why doesn't Toss execute the 3 base timing that hits before broodlords when there is a 5 minute timing window after the roach pressure where Toss can literally max out and go. You have an unbeatable death ball, use it.
I still don't understand how some Protoss players do neither a timing, nor get a pre-emptive mothership. Their army is untouchable outside broodlords anyway.
Funny you should mention the Red Bull Lan, because top Protosses Parting and Squirtle repeated died to the mass roach push even though they did builds specifically designed to counter it.
Find me a pro game where the Stephano Style Roach max fails, then Protoss sits on his ass and lets Zerg successfully tech to broods. I can only think of about maybe 1 game in which this happens.
Yeah, you're right, they did die to it, and they majorly fucked up as well. Parting also died to the 2 medivac timing of MVP which has been a TvP staple build for a year.
Stephano vs White Ra IPL4 springs to mind at that as a game where White-Ra managed to throw a lead.
Edit: JYP DIMAGA on dual site at HSC4 as well.
Stephano vs White-ra was the only game I could think of too. I'll give you that one. IIRC, JYP vs Dimaga on dual sight had nothing to do with stephano roach max. JYP did throw a huge lead, but Dimaga opened roach ling infestor. Can you provide an example of another game where Protoss gets ahead from roach max and doesn't close it out? I agree that Protoss should be able to close it out if the roach max fails, but it just hasn't happened in a pro game yet as you're describing.
Parting did fuck up a lot in the game on Daybreak. Squirtle did not fuck up majorly though either on Antiga nor the first game on Cloud Kingdom before the regame, and still lost/was put into an unfavorable position.
Ehh maybe you're right. I know thad it happens a lot in ladder though but then again, everything happens on ladder.
I guess the PvZ guide I'm writing will go elsewhere, since it won't be very well-received here based on my observations of this thread. For a 77 page thread on how to beat this strategy, though, you'd think there would be more interest in how to play against it and win consistently. Oh well, maybe another time. If this thread hits 200 pages I'm posting it regardless and if it gets an overwhelmingly negative reception, I'll deal with the heat when it comes. :-/
In hindsight, though, I supposed I should have at least written a helpful, informative guide before posting in the strategy forum; e-cred is important. I guess I haven't learned a damn thing in like 5 years on this site. It's gotten a lot bigger since SC2.
On June 18 2012 05:09 Masvidal wrote: I guess the PvZ guide I'm writing will go elsewhere, since it won't be very well-received here based on my observations of this thread. For a 77 page thread on how to beat this strategy, though, you'd think there would be more interest in how to play against it and win consistently. Oh well, maybe another time. If this thread hits 200 pages I'm posting it regardless and if it gets an overwhelmingly negative reception, I'll deal with the heat when it comes. :-/
In hindsight, though, I supposed I should have at least written a helpful, informative guide before posting in the strategy forum; e-cred is important. I guess I haven't learned a damn thing in like 5 years on this site. It's gotten a lot bigger since SC2.
So you have a magical guide to stopping the stephano 200/200 roach push that no progamer knows of, yet you don't want to post it because you think it wont be well received? Yes, I can see where the problem lies. (Technically, you're right. This isn't the place of it. But if you posted it in its own thread on the strategy forum and linked it here, it would be the right thing to do.)
Also realize that no one here thinks that its unbeatable. Its just that its very hard to beat, unlike from the zerg point of view where its extremely easy to execute. + the fact that when you add in stuff like drops and multiprong attacks, its damn near impossible to not lose at least one nexus. At this point, as toss, you either have to execute a very well timed attack that hits right before or as the zerg starts to mass roaches, or you have to be a lot better than the zerg player (ie: knowing exactly where he is going to attack, perfect army split, perfect forcefields, and probably a great deal of harass).
If you say so . . . I disagree, and I use to whine about this very topic before I decided to just figure it out, but we're all entitled to our opinions. I have too much time on my hands :/
seriously just open stargate, and if they're stubborn, continue to chrono out void rays. or continously chrono immortals and 2 base blink +2 allin with sentries
On June 18 2012 05:09 Masvidal wrote: I guess the PvZ guide I'm writing will go elsewhere, since it won't be very well-received here based on my observations of this thread. For a 77 page thread on how to beat this strategy, though, you'd think there would be more interest in how to play against it and win consistently. Oh well, maybe another time. If this thread hits 200 pages I'm posting it regardless and if it gets an overwhelmingly negative reception, I'll deal with the heat when it comes. :-/
In hindsight, though, I supposed I should have at least written a helpful, informative guide before posting in the strategy forum; e-cred is important. I guess I haven't learned a damn thing in like 5 years on this site. It's gotten a lot bigger since SC2.
So you have a magical guide to stopping the stephano 200/200 roach push that no progamer knows of, yet you don't want to post it because you think it wont be well received? Yes, I can see where the problem lies. (Technically, you're right. This isn't the place of it. But if you posted it in its own thread on the strategy forum and linked it here, it would be the right thing to do.)
Also realize that no one here thinks that its unbeatable. Its just that its very hard to beat, unlike from the zerg point of view where its extremely easy to execute. + the fact that when you add in stuff like drops and multiprong attacks, its damn near impossible to not lose at least one nexus. At this point, as toss, you either have to execute a very well timed attack that hits right before or as the zerg starts to mass roaches, or you have to be a lot better than the zerg player (ie: knowing exactly where he is going to attack, perfect army split, perfect forcefields, and probably a great deal of harass).
This sentiment that Pro Gamers play perfectly is absurd, if they did, the metagame would have never changes and developed in the first place. It's very possible (and actually quite likely) that there are superior strategies that amateurs use, that are not widely discovered yet.
I doubt he has a magical guide, I'm willing to bet that its probably just common sense mixed with a little thinking outside the box. (This is how I developed my PvZ)
On June 18 2012 05:09 Masvidal wrote: I guess the PvZ guide I'm writing will go elsewhere, since it won't be very well-received here based on my observations of this thread. For a 77 page thread on how to beat this strategy, though, you'd think there would be more interest in how to play against it and win consistently. Oh well, maybe another time. If this thread hits 200 pages I'm posting it regardless and if it gets an overwhelmingly negative reception, I'll deal with the heat when it comes. :-/
In hindsight, though, I supposed I should have at least written a helpful, informative guide before posting in the strategy forum; e-cred is important. I guess I haven't learned a damn thing in like 5 years on this site. It's gotten a lot bigger since SC2.
So you have a magical guide to stopping the stephano 200/200 roach push that no progamer knows of, yet you don't want to post it because you think it wont be well received? Yes, I can see where the problem lies. (Technically, you're right. This isn't the place of it. But if you posted it in its own thread on the strategy forum and linked it here, it would be the right thing to do.)
Also realize that no one here thinks that its unbeatable. Its just that its very hard to beat, unlike from the zerg point of view where its extremely easy to execute. + the fact that when you add in stuff like drops and multiprong attacks, its damn near impossible to not lose at least one nexus. At this point, as toss, you either have to execute a very well timed attack that hits right before or as the zerg starts to mass roaches, or you have to be a lot better than the zerg player (ie: knowing exactly where he is going to attack, perfect army split, perfect forcefields, and probably a great deal of harass).
This sentiment that Pro Gamers play perfectly is absurd, if they did, the metagame would have never changes and developed in the first place. It's very possible (and actually quite likely) that there are superior strategies that amateurs use, that are not widely discovered yet.
I doubt he has a magical guide, I'm willing to bet that its probably just common sense mixed with a little thinking outside the box. (This is how I developed my PvZ)
I never said progamers play perfectly.. Progamers spend a lot of time testing out different parts of the game. The builds and tactics they show us in tournaments is whatever they deemed to be the most powerful. Do you honestly think theres going to be some amateur guy out there who has the perfect answer, yet no one else seems to have found it yet? Like I said, there are ways to beat this build. Its not impossible. Its just the toughness to defend couples with the absurd ease to execute that is throwing the game off balance. Its a bit like the 1-1-1 was half a year ago, where even if you knew before the game started that it was coming, you'd have an impossibly hard time defending it, while the execution of the attack itself is retardedly easy.
On June 18 2012 05:09 Masvidal wrote: I guess the PvZ guide I'm writing will go elsewhere, since it won't be very well-received here based on my observations of this thread. For a 77 page thread on how to beat this strategy, though, you'd think there would be more interest in how to play against it and win consistently. Oh well, maybe another time. If this thread hits 200 pages I'm posting it regardless and if it gets an overwhelmingly negative reception, I'll deal with the heat when it comes. :-/
In hindsight, though, I supposed I should have at least written a helpful, informative guide before posting in the strategy forum; e-cred is important. I guess I haven't learned a damn thing in like 5 years on this site. It's gotten a lot bigger since SC2.
So you have a magical guide to stopping the stephano 200/200 roach push that no progamer knows of, yet you don't want to post it because you think it wont be well received? Yes, I can see where the problem lies. (Technically, you're right. This isn't the place of it. But if you posted it in its own thread on the strategy forum and linked it here, it would be the right thing to do.)
Also realize that no one here thinks that its unbeatable. Its just that its very hard to beat, unlike from the zerg point of view where its extremely easy to execute. + the fact that when you add in stuff like drops and multiprong attacks, its damn near impossible to not lose at least one nexus. At this point, as toss, you either have to execute a very well timed attack that hits right before or as the zerg starts to mass roaches, or you have to be a lot better than the zerg player (ie: knowing exactly where he is going to attack, perfect army split, perfect forcefields, and probably a great deal of harass).
This sentiment that Pro Gamers play perfectly is absurd, if they did, the metagame would have never changes and developed in the first place. It's very possible (and actually quite likely) that there are superior strategies that amateurs use, that are not widely discovered yet.
I doubt he has a magical guide, I'm willing to bet that its probably just common sense mixed with a little thinking outside the box. (This is how I developed my PvZ)
I never said progamers play perfectly.. Progamers spend a lot of time testing out different parts of the game. The builds and tactics they show us in tournaments is whatever they deemed to be the most powerful. Do you honestly think theres going to be some amateur guy out there who has the perfect answer, yet no one else seems to have found it yet? Like I said, there are ways to beat this build. Its not impossible. Its just the toughness to defend couples with the absurd ease to execute that is throwing the game off balance. Its a bit like the 1-1-1 was half a year ago, where even if you knew before the game started that it was coming, you'd have an impossibly hard time defending it, while the execution of the attack itself is retardedly easy.
I have been tending to skip sentries... maybe one or two sentires if I can wall off the ramp to my natural with 2 FF or less just to defend home base when they split their roaches.
Part of the problem with going any kind of non-forge fast expand is they build a pool first and can easily kill you if you don't make a forge and they scout it. The other problem is if you don't FEE expand, it just takes the game back to what it was 6 months ago and zerg found lots of ways to survive 1 base pressure. I have little experince in what will work as I haven't been able to win vs players who PROPERLY follow this build (many gold/plats mess up the build slightly).
the max out roach build is getting rather terrible. You have a timing window of max 30 seconds to make it work or you fail. Look at how hard nestea fails with this roach push. The toss didn't even do anything crazy or amazing, he just played solid. And if you're going to comment on the overlord kill; then go kill 1 or 2 overlords lol.
the max out roach build is getting rather terrible. You have a timing window of max 30 seconds to make it work or you fail. Look at how hard nestea fails with this roach push. The toss didn't even do anything crazy or amazing, he just played solid. And if you're going to comment on the overlord kill; then go kill 1 or 2 overlords lol.
Immortals, they raping everybody out there.
I think you've said it all here, the way the roach build gains effectiveness though is when it is used on multiple fronts, maps like cloud kingdom, tal darim, daybreak can still be incredibly difficult to hold though.
EPT
