EPTHere is a vod of MC vs Stephano, if someone haven't watched it yet.
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 73
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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
Here is a vod of MC vs Stephano, if someone haven't watched it yet. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
It's sort of like opening cloaked banshees (unscouted) against FE in TvT. If you do no damage whatsoever, you're a little behind, but you've still got a decent shot to win. And you're almost guaranteed to get some marine and SCV kills, so it rarely actually puts you behind at all. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 01 2012 14:29 Fogetaboudit wrote: This screenshot is at 13 minutes, I have slightly less at 12 minutes, ofc, but you get the general idea. In this game the Zerg is going for 1/1 Roach hydra bust on my third. this is not as hard to hold as just pure roaches Stefano style. what will happen is the roaches will try to micro around run around and do as much damage as they can before I get enough of a critical mass of Void rays and cannons to hold everything off and stabalize. Whats key is that my army is never touched, like a standard army would be just traded over and over, and his is army is completely traded off (or retreating) in exchange for some damage to my base. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/Screenshot2012-05-0105_45_33.jpg) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403 I don't think anyone doubts that your unit counts are conceivable (I for one did not think 20 food of air units at the 13 minute mark unthinkable) or that you are able to spend a lot on cannons. But how do you deal with Muta/Speedling? Seems like both would be fast enough to kill any buildings and workers where your army isn't. We all know that a building muta ball will eventually be more or less immune from cannons. | ||
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
I toned down the 12 gate zealot all-in to a 9-10 gate +1 zealot EE HAN TIMING with 34 probes as fast as I can, proxy pylons between the natural and third, and one nearer the natural, and then I take a bunch of zealots and kill queens and the third as the best case scenario. If I get scouted and Zerg responds properly I just GG at this point. If it does work, as soon as I can't do any more damage I go home, get 2 more gases, make about 10 more probes, get a TC and +2 and transition straight into a delayed +2 blink all-in. The greatest part of this is that you force Zerg to make roaches and not drones, and if you take down his third you are way ahead. If you take down two queens and his third you've basically won and just need to warp in a few rounds of stalkers. | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
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robopork
United States511 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Thought I'd throw in 2 cents of rage to make myself feel a little better. At the very least, this guy didn't try to argue with me when I pointed out that his build is just fucking silly. It's the three ringed circus from hell. It's a joke with the lame setup where instead of offering a punchline, the guy just takes out a gun and fucking kills you. Then he flashes your corpse a shit-eating grin and saunters away. I am so irritated right now. Tonight I'll be glued to that mc-stephano vod until my eyes bleed; I must understand. Just so there's an ounce of constructive thought in this, I definitely put up a much better fight using zealots, force fields, and immortals than I ever did trying to build primarily stalkers. I need to toy around with the fast third. Edit: that is to say, thank you, posters, for the advice. ^^ | ||
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Borkbokbork
United States123 Posts
Stephano said sentries are key. | ||
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Allred
United States352 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:00 Borkbokbork wrote: What about a zealot/sentry fast third build, with cannons, fast shield upgnarade, and hallucinate for scouting? Stephano said sentries are key. seems like this idea lost momentum a few pages back. but a few days ago i was practicing with a friend trying to hold this. it seems like if i remember correctly i went nexus first gate and then forge and poked with 2 zealots only 2 confirm fast third from zerg. if i remember correctly i took a 7 min third, fast robo and a twighlight and was able to get +2 attack, 2 immortals a ton of sentries about the 12-13 min mark. ( i am only diamond so better players can probably do it and be able to hold for the 12 min attack. if it were perfected) i think i would have one had i remembered to keep my zealot in my wall on hold position and not let 15 lings run in and kill most my probes... oh well live and learn... i liked the 7 min third and seemed timings worked out fairly well... the problem would be if zerg decides to attack with fewer drones earlier when u have practically 0 army, and no map control or vision of it coming... just my thoughts... | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 01 2012 22:38 Treehead wrote: I don't think anyone doubts that your unit counts are conceivable (I for one did not think 20 food of air units at the 13 minute mark unthinkable) or that you are able to spend a lot on cannons. But how do you deal with Muta/Speedling? Seems like both would be fast enough to kill any buildings and workers where your army isn't. We all know that a building muta ball will eventually be more or less immune from cannons. There is a lot of talk about Muta/Speedling in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403 Basically, lings get attacked by void rays/cannons, and although the DPS is not astounding, if you are creative enough with your walls, and your Mothership is in good position, damage is minimized. Mutas are dealt with by using Phoenix, we have 2 Stargates (with another 2 otw, after the third is established,) possibly a few scouting Phoenix already, and air upgrades rolling. We also already have the fleet beacon for the range upgrade since the Mothership is pretty crucial in the defense. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On May 01 2012 22:09 kcdc wrote: Belial, it's really not all-in. Zerg is behind if the attack does no damage, but they're certainly not far enough behind that they can't win. Also, on most maps, the attack is almost guaranteed to do damage unless Zerg was put behind by handling early pressure poorly. On the rare occasions that Stephano doesn't do big damage with the push, you'll see him pull back, put up a bunch of spines, and tech to infestor-BL. And a lot of times, he wins. If it were all-in, he should lose almost every time the attack fails. It's sort of like opening cloaked banshees (unscouted) against FE in TvT. If you do no damage whatsoever, you're a little behind, but you've still got a decent shot to win. And you're almost guaranteed to get some marine and SCV kills, so it rarely actually puts you behind at all. That's all I'm saying. I obviously gave a more extreme impression than I meant, but this is all I'm saying. What I understood of 'stephano style' is what I saw in the games I've seen him play and on the day9 daily where day9 says 'stephano style - infestors and 100+ drones and spines'. Sorry if I obviously missed something. | ||
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J.E.G.
United States389 Posts
The main problem i am having is after holding the first wave of roach, i dont have enough sentry energy to keep the roaches at bay. They then get right up on my stalkers, effectively nullifying blink. I also have a really hard time reinforcing, as any time spent warping in units and not constant blink micro, i lose too much stuff. My core usually goes down, and the situation snowballs out of control. This is all from using early third into 9 gate +3 blink stalker with no rarly pressure, as the 4gate +1 builds do not seem the slow zerg down enough, even if i snipe their third. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
imo you need the immortals to hold vs this, if you don't get immortals and have some sort of wall off with gateways I don't think you can hold with just gateway units. | ||
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ajizi
20 Posts
Third base harassment Force Field I think these to are key component to win the game. I dont find the time to make 60 drones in the beginning. So im usually at 50 drones. Harass the third and he's down too 2 base 40 drones. Thats at least my problem as a zerg. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:28 J.E.G. wrote: So does anyone know how to beat this yet? I havnet won against a zerg doing this build in over a week. Never thought i would be relieved to scout cheese or muta play ^^. Give defensive Stargate a shot, I think you will surprise yourself. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:35 blade55555 wrote: Hm yeah it's kind of been held even by foreign tosses vs stephano himself. Watch white ra vs stephano on cloud kingdom, stephano does his 12 minute max roach but white ra holds and should have won the game. Don't have any others at the moment as that would mean watching a lot of zvp's, but just from experience tosses seemed to have figured it out by going faster robo when getting a third and not relying on pure gateway units or anything. imo you need the immortals to hold vs this, if you don't get immortals and have some sort of wall off with gateways I don't think you can hold with just gateway units. Yea, I'm of the opinion that you need immortals as well. If you rely solely on gateway walls and units, you won't have enough dps to punish roaches killing your walls. Too bad cause this basically means that you need to incorporate immortals someway into every macro build. I've seen 2 builds recently that looked pretty decent vs this. One was Puzzle's builds in the GSL which was quick robo into double obs immortal into 3rd. The other was Hero's build vs Stephano in EGMC, which was double voidray into phoenix plus 1 robo into mass immortal off of 1 gateway, then add gates into 3rd. | ||
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
What do you guys think about the fast 3rd builds, personally I find it's only a viable opening if Z gets speed late (I've met a lot of high level zergs who open sling :S ), but I don't have a lot of experience with it and would be interested to hear what ppl think about it who play it regularly. | ||
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J.E.G.
United States389 Posts
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InVerno
258 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:35 blade55555 wrote: Hm yeah it's kind of been held even by foreign tosses vs stephano himself. Watch white ra vs stephano on cloud kingdom, stephano does his 12 minute max roach but white ra holds and should have won the game. Don't have any others at the moment as that would mean watching a lot of zvp's, but just from experience tosses seemed to have figured it out by going faster robo when getting a third and not relying on pure gateway units or anything. imo you need the immortals to hold vs this, if you don't get immortals and have some sort of wall off with gateways I don't think you can hold with just gateway units. If we're talking of the same game, stephano went to a multipronged roach attack, and simply do not control the army on the third of whitera, letting the roach hit a gas, a probe, a nexus, a gate, a nothing... If only he was focussing the nexus, that game would be nothing to talk about. And yeah, im pretty sure after see a lot of games, that is the way to hold that push, a mistake from the zerg. Yes, u can force him to make it and tell yourself this is the game, or simply hope the opponenet cant box twenty roach and richt-click a nexus. Meh, that game was simply orrible to watch from a human-protoss perspective. | ||
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Karsaib
France17 Posts
It seemed really solid as Nerchio, being well known for being really annoying with hatch blocking tricks, could do nothing but watch. Then, he applied a bit of pressure with the 2 zealots while getting forge/cannons, more gateways/stargate and made nothing but phoenixes, giving him total map control (thus allowing him to get his third totally safely with colossus tech). It seemed like Nerchio was quite disturbed as he was seemingly quite behind in eco and tech, and only won after an about 5 minute micro battle involving a lot of corrupters and hydra/lings against colossus/void rays/phoenixes/zealots. It looked like he relied on his better mechanics to win this game that was getting out of his control. So I don't know if it is already a well-known build but it seemed quite well thought out, not brainless like you can see too much player do after ffe. Any comments/feedbacks ? | ||
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Domus
510 Posts
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