You don't need to be rude... it's a pretty simple concept to understand. If you sink all of your gas into roaches all the way up to 200/200, and you are still on only 3, maybe 4 bases, then your mutas/infestor are going to be really late. When Toss is normally struggling to hold off 25 mutas and just barely getting HT tech, Toss instead will just have to deal with maybe 10-15 mutas and have HT tech already out since he didn't need to keep making so many more stalkers. And the effect just snowballs, T is under less muta pressure so he can mass up his deathball quicker and push out quicker from 3 bases, before your have hive tech. While normally Z won't have hivetech ready to deal with this push, if you didn't max roaches, you can use your 25+ mutas or 50 spines/10infestors/15corruptors to stall just long enough to get it out, with good play.
You make it sound like mass roach is the best way to play zerg. But there's a reason pros don't do it. It's just horrible. There's no way 200/200 roaches are going to crush a sentry/immortal army at 12:00 if Toss is on the ramp and is paying attention, and then goes straight toward colossi, or more immortals. Eventually, he'll secure his third - 200/200 roaches won't do anything against a ~140 supply toss army, even in the open.
I mean really. Just watch this game, and read what the korean casters are saying:
Toss holds with good FF and using immortals, and going towards blink. Then when Z tries to go mutas afterwards, Toss already has 3 strong mining bases, with lots of sentries, blink already upgraded, and enough stalkers that he can go HT immediately.
I really don't care what you saw. This is pretty basic. What league are you in?
It's not hard to understand. Mass 200/200 roach in ZvP is all-in, as long as Toss defends adequately, they will come out ahead. Obviously, it can be hard to defend against, but if Toss scouts well, he should be able to easily deal with it, and take his third with a huge tech advantage. Z is on roach tech, and Toss is on tier 3 colossus, or has blink and ready for mutas and can defend the mutas easily and get HT right away instead of having to make stalkers first.
You don't see zergs go 200/200 roach for the most part, for a reason. It's all-in. It's not all-in as a 6 pool drone pull, but it's pretty all-in.
I don't want to say anything mean here... but... there's like a reason no one really does this anymore. Good luck winning against Toss who has blink or tier 3 colossus or lots of immortals, and you are still on just t1 roaches. Toss stays on his ramp at natural, uses good forcefield, gets enough immortals out and blink, eventually will have enough to push out, and then your shit out of luck as mutas tend to be less good against 20+ stalkers with blink already finished, or trying to hold colossi when you only have 6 infestors that just came out. I understand that his sort of play may seem daunting, but believe me, the metagame has already figured this out.
Also an advice "get more stuff of 2 base than zerg from 3" is really bad.
No - it's not about Toss having more stuff. Obviously he can't. I'm saying Toss will have way more tech on 2 base than 3 base zerg who masses only roaches. In general, Toss has better tech on 2 base than 3 base zerg, thus it's really important for zerg to race up the tech tree as fast as possible and make as few roaches as he can get away with, so he can tech up quicker to muta/infestor and eventually broodlord. But if zerg is willing to stay just on t1, and Toss holds the aggression, Toss just ends up sooooo far ahead.
And bl/infestor is really easier than roaches? Okay.
Belial, Stephano is famous for doing a maxed speed roach timing attack between 11 and 12 minutes. He does it just about every game that Protoss tries to take a third. If he fails to win at this point, he'll get a bunch of spines and tech to BL+infestor.
The 11 minute timing is not an all-in, but it is an invested attack, and it's much better for Z if it does damage. While other Zergs have done big speed roach attacks for a long time, Stephano has made a career out of doing the same build (which is safe in the squisy 7-9 minute period and has this attack at 11 minutes) almost every game, and he does it better than anyone else (DRG is on about the same level).
To everyone else:
MC is better against this attack than anyone else as far as I can tell, and it seems like one difference is that MC makes more zealots. Has the discussion in this thread dismissed zealots too quickly?
I'm sorry if I sounded rude, didn't ment to. But i just don't understand why you are still pushing this towards Muta/Infestor if i'm telling you that game usually ends with roaches swarming toss. Or grounding him at his nat.
Inf/Bl play is not simple or easier, it's different, but every toss knows the correct responce to it. Scout BL -> Fleet Beacon -> Mothership-> Vortex->Archons in Vortex, repeat if necesary. It still require skill and control, but it's a standart, that works, currently there is no standart against stephano's roach play, just theories.
I understand that you like videos, I'll come back from work home in couple of hours and gladly share you some videos of Stephano's play.
On April 30 2012 22:59 kcdc wrote: zealots. Has the discussion in this thread dismissed zealots too quickly?
If I remember correctly in one game MC (or it was titan) did a 4gate+1 agression and succeded at punishing stephano's third, but then was thorn apart when trying to get his 3rd. He did better with SG.
I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it.
On April 30 2012 20:01 Fogetaboudit wrote: Void Rays+ Mothership + cannons > Roaches
seriously though, I think this is extremely viable. It's a little tricky when the roaches run everywhere and split up, but if you keep up with it well enough eventually you will have enough VRs + cannons + sim city to stabilize 3 bases.
On April 30 2012 23:19 kcdc wrote: I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it.
I haven't seen any of this, would you happen to have a vod or replay?
I think that (as a zerg) without charge, zealots are kind of dead weight. All they do is delay slightly. If I see zealots I'll just hold my lings back and kite the zealots.
Perhaps if MC makes no cannons at his third until a bit later and that gives him 4-5 more zealots when the initial wave hits?
On April 30 2012 20:01 Fogetaboudit wrote: Void Rays+ Mothership + cannons > Roaches
seriously though, I think this is extremely viable. It's a little tricky when the roaches run everywhere and split up, but if you keep up with it well enough eventually you will have enough VRs + cannons + sim city to stabilize 3 bases.
On April 30 2012 23:19 kcdc wrote: I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it.
I can think of couple of reasons. Preventing ling agression. Zealots+armor are good at tanking damage. They make a dence wall, blocking roaches way to tech units. Roaches usually tend to enter close-combat range for max dps, that favores zealots more than stalkers. Zealots work well with forcefields. They cost only minerals.
On April 30 2012 23:19 kcdc wrote: I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it.
That is quite odd why would you use zealots against roaches? The only thing i can think of is that you can save gas for extra sentries.
On April 30 2012 21:32 Belial88 wrote: Video here.
Okay, i've watched the video. If i'm not wrong (cuz quality really isn't the best), when zerg engaged timer showed 14 minutes. That's at least 2:30 delayed attack, and P managed to get 5 immortals on board at that time.
On April 30 2012 23:19 kcdc wrote: I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it.
That is quite odd why would you use zealots against roaches? The only thing i can think of is that you can save gas for extra sentries.
In terms of stats, zealots are P's best unit. If the roaches hold still, there's a good amount of surface area, and P isn't hugely out-numbered, zealots are going to be pretty good.
If anyone hasn't watched the IGN FC match between Stephano and MC, check it out and count his zealots when Stephano does his 12 minute roach timing. Then check out your replays and count your zealots at the same time. I'm not saying that this will be an answer, but it might be worth looking into a little more.
I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying?
at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them)
On April 30 2012 21:32 Belial88 wrote: It's not hard to understand. Mass 200/200 roach in ZvP is all-in, as long as Toss defends adequately, they will come out ahead. Obviously, it can be hard to defend against, but if Toss scouts well, he should be able to easily deal with it, and take his third with a huge tech advantage. Z is on roach tech, and Toss is on tier 3 colossus, or has blink and ready for mutas and can defend the mutas easily and get HT right away instead of having to make stalkers first.
Belial.. sorry to say that but really, inform yourself about the Stephano style we're speaking of. I don't even see what mutas have to do with this conversation.
It's NOT all-in. The goal of Stephano with his 200/200 attack is to: 1. Secure his fourth by keeping the Protoss down on his knees scared in his bases 2. Snipe / Delay Protoss's third for as long as possible 3. Tech to infestors/broodlords behind a wall of spines
His roach army is basically to buy time. A lot of time. And, of course, he'll go for the kill if the toss doesn't have perfect FF usage.
I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying?
at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them)
Ah yes, five voidrays and a mothership, that's some pretty massive DPS right there to deal with 70 roaches.
I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying?
at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them)
At 12 minutes you'll attempt to get a third and you'll get a multi-pronged attack and your 5 voidrays will just lack the dps to kill 200/200 roaches before he kills your base. Remember: your single mothership can only cover one base.
On April 30 2012 21:32 Belial88 wrote: Eventually, he'll secure his third - 200/200 roaches won't do anything against a ~140 supply toss army, even in the open.
You'll notice that the army sizes (supply-worker count) at ~11-12 minutes are in the area of 40-50 food for most of the ways of playing PvZ. This is the point of the thread. Yes, the 140-some supply of roaches at 11-12 minutes is a large investment, but look at what it's likely to run into: several stalkers and sentries, and maybe an immortal or two or a void ray or two. That means he has to stomp down 60-70 supply of roaches without losing anything before he can even think about a direct engagement. And notice that for a P's fast third (which defends at 12 min with 10 stalkers, 9 sentries and an immortal), we actually have nearly as much gas invested in army as the zerg does.
You don't want to make roaches and push? Fine. A lot of people are doing that, though, and having success with it. And given that it comes from the zerg building a ludicrously fast third, and putting the protoss in a position where he can't really move out without getting crushed - I can't see how you could a make a case that this is as ludicrously bad as you claim.
Edit: Unless you're pointing towards the toss maxxing and then taking a third - at which point I'd ask you how many bases, spines, tech and larva can a zerg accumulate between 11-12 minutes when they're maxxed and the protoss is known to be behind in economy. The answer may surprise you.
I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying?
at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them)
Ah yes, five voidrays and a mothership, that's some pretty massive DPS right there to deal with 70 roaches.
well at first it sucks, but the returns really start to diminish for the zerg very fast, this is the key! Your army is not on the ground where he can just trade trade trade with his superior economy. He has a small window of time where he can run around and do damage. Maybe he kills some buildings, some workers, some cannons, some probes. You don\t lose a single VR and your air army is really going to start to pile out of control. If he doesn't have an answer for this, GG. If he does make some AA, you have time to stabilize all of your bases and proceed how you wish (2 more SGs and second core is how I normally proceed after holding third.)
I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying?
at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them)
Do you have like... anything on the ground? Or are you just blind countering this style?
Seriously, your answer is mass voidrays? I'd love to see a replay and would like you to tell us what league you are in.
I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying?
at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them)
Do you have like... anything on the ground? Or are you just blind countering this style?
Seriously, your answer is mass voidrays? I'd love to see a replay and would like you to tell us what league you are in.
I'm midmasters as Protoss, but I have beaten much better Zergs.
I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying?
at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them)
Ah yes, five voidrays and a mothership, that's some pretty massive DPS right there to deal with 70 roaches.
well at first it sucks, but the returns really start to diminish for the zerg very fast, this is the key! Your army is not on the ground where he can just trade trade trade with his superior economy. He has a small window of time where he can run around and do damage. Maybe he kills some buildings, some workers, some cannons, some probes. You don\t lose a single VR and your air army is really going to start to pile out of control. If he doesn't have an answer for this, GG. If he does make some AA, you have time to stabilize all of your bases and proceed how you wish (2 more SGs and second core is how I normally proceed after holding third.)
70 roaches will destroy everything you have while 5 voidrays and a mothership take at least a minute to kill them. It's not some gateways and probes, it's your third, natural, and tech structures while splitting some off to deal with all your probes. Go in the unit tester and see how long it takes for voidrays to kill that big of an army, unless you somehow managed to get two stargate voidrays, a mothership, a third, and mass mass cannons at 12 minutes.
So question to those people trying the 1-gate into fast 3 Nexus builds, has anybody tried attacking with ~8ish gateways out of this opening before zerg maxes on roaches? I think this may be the way to go here ala Parting's fast 3 Nexus build into 8 gateway push @ 9 mins in PvT. For example in PvT I'm finding it 10x more effective/easier going fast 3 Nexus into 8 gateway push than going fast 3 Nexus with no aggression and trying to defend my 3 bases from multiple angles. The premise is simple, be the aggressor and attempt to do damage and trade armies cost effectively to slow down their push, which allows you to get more tech/infrastructure up to defend.
EPT
