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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On April 28 2012 20:29 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 20:16 ineversmile wrote:On April 28 2012 16:13 ZeromuS wrote:
You need blink stalkers because mutas are always a potential switch or reaction upon scouting and also because nothing else out of the warpgate can deal with roaches well. WG units build fast and you cant go phoenix immortal to deal with mass roach and potential mutas, stalkers are just better and more versatile.
EDIT: wth happened with the quote bbcode there?? And why can't we go Phoenix/Immortal, exactly? Or Phoenix/Void Ray, for that matter.... You can't get enough of them in time to hold a 200/200 army at 12'. It's also an horrible compo versus lings infestors..
You can't go phoenix/VR as a midgame comp (as opposed to building only a few for harassment) because it's hard to have a ton of Stargate units and then also have colossi/templar in time for a hydra push.
In theory, if you had a warp prism, sentries and immortals and your micro was good, I bet you could hold it even after opening with a few phoenixes (haven't tried it though).
Edit: Assuming you could keep stuff behind a simcity.
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So is the general thought now that we go ffe 1 gate into third, fast blink and fast +2 and then a lot of stalkers to hold the pressure, and tech to either collusus or storm?
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So many of you are talking about putting down a fast third around the 7(!) minute mark. Can someone explain to me how that is done? The stephano build isn't exactly set in stone and surely the moment you put down a third, while at the same time powering upgrades and tech in order to be able to deal with the onset of roach aggression, he'll just start attacking you with roachling from two angels thereby ending the game right there instead?
Anyone has any replays of this style (on maps that don't have unusually accessible thirds)?
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On April 29 2012 03:36 hifriend wrote:
So many of you are talking about putting down a fast third around the 7(!) minute mark. Can someone explain to me how that is done? The stephano build isn't exactly set in stone and surely the moment you put down a third, while at the same time powering upgrades and tech in order to be able to deal with the onset of roach aggression, he'll just start attacking you with roachling from two angels thereby ending the game right there instead?
Anyone has any replays of this style (on maps that don't have unusually accessible thirds)?
The 'Stephano build' gets extremely late speed and gasses in general. He won't be able to get any number of roach ling with speed before your third has already kicked in. Its sort of like how Zerg can get a free third vs ffe, Protoss can get a free third if Zerg is doing nothing but droning and delaying gas and getting lair before speed. Its not quite the same as it isn't safe vs an earlier gas timing but the principle is there.
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Was playing some games with some high masters zergs, doing a bit of research
In general, you can "just about" delay with sentries long enough to get 4-5 immortals which is just about enough to defend your third
You basically need ALOT of sentries and some immortals, sentries really are the key
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Was testing a gateway first opening (yeah i know you guys hate it lol)
Basically goes,
14 gate
16 nexus
16 pylon
16 zealot (not chronod)
then chrono out the next 2 zealots when the pylon is done, reveal zealot (dont try to kill with it, dont get it surrounded by lings, just pressure)
3 zealots total chrono'd out, attack with them, try to kill some lings, but don't lose any zealots, just force as many lings as you can
Get forge, gas, cyber
save chronos so you can max chrono cyber, and get +1 on forge
3 gates for 8-8:30 zealot warpin
Basically same as FFE except you get zealots instead of a forge, and then attempting the same 8 minute +1 timing
Your +1 timing is slowed slightly since your econ is slightly weaker because of the zealots, but i feel that the economic advantage gained here is about equal
The key is when you warpin, zerg has been forced to make lings which are basically useless vs +1 zeals, making your 8 minute warpin stronger and thus delaying zerg even more when he wants his roaches out
I tested it on a high masters zerg with 2 different guys, to them it seemed pretty solid, could have some gaping holes in it. Timings are really important since zerg will only be able to get out roaches at 9 minutes (usually), so every second counts
From here you can do the usual build robo whilst gates are warping, double immortal chrono + take third with sentries and cannons etc.
Tell me what you think anyway
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note: in my opinion it's really important that in general, you do some kind of zealot pressure before roaches come out (whether it be 8 minute +1 or w/e) because it REALLY does slow down zerg's maxing time
testing just from the high pressure opening his max was delayed to 13 minutes instead of the usual 12 minutes which is a big deal imho if you're gonna be taking a third
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Roach all ins seem to be the norm when playing pvz especially just when you are planning your 3rd expo. The timings between the 2 are almost identical if you are pushing both chrono boost probes and upgrades. I've ended up seeing this build so often, I feel the only way to counter is with an all in VR charge working off 2/3 stargates and chrono the upgrades for air and shields. If this is repelled I tend to go back to focussing on stalker/sentry/imm/coll combos which is so gas intensive you need at least 3/4 bases just to keep up. Getting a FFG may be a better option and throwing down some DTs early on to help repel his mass push. With some air too you can eliminate any overseers and hopefully slow down how much of the map zerg controls
User was warned for this post
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On April 29 2012 04:04 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 03:36 hifriend wrote:
So many of you are talking about putting down a fast third around the 7(!) minute mark. Can someone explain to me how that is done? The stephano build isn't exactly set in stone and surely the moment you put down a third, while at the same time powering upgrades and tech in order to be able to deal with the onset of roach aggression, he'll just start attacking you with roachling from two angels thereby ending the game right there instead?
Anyone has any replays of this style (on maps that don't have unusually accessible thirds)? The 'Stephano build' gets extremely late speed and gasses in general. He won't be able to get any number of roach ling with speed before your third has already kicked in. Its sort of like how Zerg can get a free third vs ffe, Protoss can get a free third if Zerg is doing nothing but droning and delaying gas and getting lair before speed. Its not quite the same as it isn't safe vs an earlier gas timing but the principle is there.
Thanks you're right of course. After looking over the zerg bo a little more closely I've been experimenting with this and I like the early third into +2 blink stalker style.
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Just a heads up that there is a BO9 Showmatch tonight between Stephano and MC on the IPL Fight Club. If Stephano tries his normal roach play, we can see what MC does to combat it.
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haha sick nice
Yeah it's pretty much exactly what im doing give or take a few bo differences
I obviously prefer to follow up with robo as opposed to blink
His zealots come waay earlier than mine though, probably a good thing, though
I'm unsure about following it up with stalkers instead of robo, i mean the jury is sitll out on immortals/vs stalkers in defending this right?
Honestly i just like the punchiness of immortal sentry vs roach pushes since immortals are a lot more compact and work well in the tigher spaces given as a defensive unit
however if i can skip them completely i would like to know about it!
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On April 29 2012 08:33 revel8 wrote:
Just a heads up that there is a BO9 Showmatch tonight between Stephano and MC on the IPL Fight Club. If Stephano tries his normal roach play, we can see what MC does to combat it.
Game 1: He combated it with 17 nexus -> forge -> gateway -> cannon into a +1 4 gate zealot & 1 stalker attack, followed by a fast third with immortals with stalker and sentry support. His supply was high enough at the 12:00 mark to prevent Stephano from doing the roach attack.
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Game 2: he combated it with the same build but into +1 4 gate zealot void rays two base timing. Put a pylon below the main and warped sentries to FF the ramp. With 4-5 void rays, it was an easy game overall for MC because his void rays got charged.
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Game 3: MC 3 gates off of one base, makes a lot of stalkers and wins.
Game 4: MC 17 nexus FFE and does a 4 gate +1 zealot stalker timing, but this one fails completely and I think he's way behind. He transitions into 6 gate immortal to defend a third base. Stephano, however, took no damage from the 4 gate +1 zealot stalker timing and rolls MC with 3 hatch roach max. First game MC loses to mass roaches.
Game 5: MC 17 nexus FFE and skips a 4 gate +1 zealot stalker timing, opting instead to mind game with 1 stalker while he +2 2 base blink stalker all-ins with no robo. He manages to hit a fast timing and kills Stephano's third, but Stephano doesn't lose drones and crushes MC's with a mid game flank. After that he maxes on roaches and kills MC while MC was trying to transition into a colossi 2-base all-in. Second game MC loses to mass roaches.
Game 6: MC 17 nexus FFE and goes into void ray phoenix harass. He then takes a third base behind it with a lot of cannons and goes colossi. Stephano goes mutas and loses because he doesn't know how to use them that well.
Game 7: is not standard.
Game 8: MC goes for forge first FFE and double pylon block on Stephano's expos. He goes for a delayed warp gate with light harass with air units and takes a 10:30 third into colossi. He defends his third against the max roach build with star gate units and zealot sentry, and takes it in a macro game though he lost his third when Stephano sacced a lot of roaches to kill it.
MC: star gate is the best answer against 3 hatch roach.
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On April 29 2012 09:50 Azarkon wrote:
MC: star gate is the best answer against 3 hatch roach.
He did in fact seem to favor Stargate to combat Stephano's style, but I'm not sure Stephano even tried this max roach build every game, but of course MC did do heavy +1 pressure in most of the games so maybe he decided to not carry through with the max at 12. Does this mean Stargate play should be standard against max roaches?
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After the Bo9 series with Stephano i confirmed some thoughs about the match up and meta:
- Z's 2 base all ins are totally good for the P player. You only need good scouting and decision and you will be ahead.
- Daybreak is really bad for P. 2 base timings are hard because of the hot spots for ovys in both paths to the enemy base; and 3 base is hard too to hold vs double pronged roach attack.
- Between a risky push right before broods and fight the infestor-spine-brood, pro P's always have better win% with the first option.
- The most succesful build among top top P's vs Z is the void into phoenixes into robo/blink/3rd build, but it requires very good multitasking to be efficient.
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I know it's (supposedly) been discussed to death but
Why are gateway expand openings bad again? I know it's not as good vs very early pool strategies, so thats a risk im taking, but is that it? or am i missing something big here? Does it really hurt your econ so much compared to FFE (you still get your nexus on 17 or so~) that your early zealots simply arn't worth the economic damage you might do forcing lings?
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On April 30 2012 04:53 BrTarolg wrote:
I know it's (supposedly) been discussed to death but
Why are gateway expand openings bad again? I know it's not as good vs very early pool strategies, so thats a risk im taking, but is that it? or am i missing something big here? Does it really hurt your econ so much compared to FFE (you still get your nexus on 17 or so~) that your early zealots simply arn't worth the economic damage you might do forcing lings?
As a Master Zerg player that opens 14/14 every ZvP right now, I have to say I collect quite a few easy wins from people going lowground gateway first. That's not to say it's unstopable, but Protoss really has to put down a forge and canons before nexus (in my opinion) to do so.
(the reason I'm opening 14/14 is because a lot of Master EU Protoss players try to do such gateway first builds or do pylon walls at the main ramp without even scouting for the gas and then just lose and even if they play normal, they often just overreact completly with 1-3extra canons and chronoboosted sentries. It feels like noone has experience playing against 14/14 right now  )
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Why would you open gateway first on the low-ground anyway? I don't get it. You need the ramp, just in case.
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On April 30 2012 05:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 04:53 BrTarolg wrote:
I know it's (supposedly) been discussed to death but
Why are gateway expand openings bad again? I know it's not as good vs very early pool strategies, so thats a risk im taking, but is that it? or am i missing something big here? Does it really hurt your econ so much compared to FFE (you still get your nexus on 17 or so~) that your early zealots simply arn't worth the economic damage you might do forcing lings? As a Master Zerg player that opens 14/14 every ZvP right now, I have to say I collect quite a few easy wins from people going lowground gateway first. That's not to say it's unstopable, but Protoss really has to put down a forge and canons before nexus (in my opinion) to do so. (the reason I'm opening 14/14 is because a lot of Master EU Protoss players try to do such gateway first builds or do pylon walls at the main ramp without even scouting for the gas and then just lose and even if they play normal, they often just overreact completly with 1-3extra canons and chronoboosted sentries. It feels like noone has experience playing against 14/14 right now )
Gateway first openings, gates are on top.
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EPT
