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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On April 27 2012 04:54 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 04:48 kcdc wrote:
Blink makes stalkers about 1,000,000x better for defending zerglings than immortals unless you have an abundance of forcefields. With blink stalkers, it takes a long time to kill lings, but you blink row after row back into more and more narrow spaces and the lings end up only doing shield damage. Immortals don't blink, so they die.
If immortals could blink, they'd be really good against this push. But they can't, so whether they're more cost-effective than stalkers against the Stephano push is really situational. They're definitely not a magic solution like a lot of people imagine them to be. Most people rely on sentries rather than blink stalkers or immortals vs lings. Stephano himself has said that lots of sentries is the key to defending.
The only issue I have with getting -lots- of sentries, is that if the Z is doing DRG burrow style, I think you're going to be in alot of trouble.
I don't think it's possible to confirm the diff between stephano, and DRG 150~180 with burrow styles - untill you've reached 11:30 and the zerg is not moving out yet (DRG usually hits around 12:30~ 13:00 iirc)
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On April 27 2012 07:36 RaNgeD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 04:38 Nyast wrote:Ranged just lost to Hyun with this fast third build in the Playhem. He got roach/lings busted at the 10' mark on Antiga despite his "special walloff", and couldn't hold even with decent FF. Blink wasn't even finished yet  Just as a side note, I made quite a few mistakes in that game, the biggest being that I let 2 lings in my base at like 5 minutes, and he got 4 probe kills + lost mining time.. I was also distracted during that time so i started my +1 late, thus my +2 was late, everything was a little late. So yeah. I didn't hold, but that doesn't mean the build doesn't work. In high level games, a lot of the times it comes down to whoever makes the least mistakes, and in this particular instance, all of the small mistakes equated into a loss for me.
Indeed, but I was under the impression that even without those small mistakes you would have been in tons of trouble. He really had a lot of roach/lings, I don't think an additional unit or two would have made a difference. +2 was pretty far from completing when he first attacked ( it was at a third ) so it wouldn't have helped either.
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On April 27 2012 04:54 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 04:48 kcdc wrote:
Blink makes stalkers about 1,000,000x better for defending zerglings than immortals unless you have an abundance of forcefields. With blink stalkers, it takes a long time to kill lings, but you blink row after row back into more and more narrow spaces and the lings end up only doing shield damage. Immortals don't blink, so they die.
If immortals could blink, they'd be really good against this push. But they can't, so whether they're more cost-effective than stalkers against the Stephano push is really situational. They're definitely not a magic solution like a lot of people imagine them to be. Most people rely on sentries rather than blink stalkers or immortals vs lings. Stephano himself has said that lots of sentries is the key to defending.
Obviously you're going to have forcefields at the start of the fight, but depending on your build and the map and how efficient and effective your forcefielding happens to be that game, you might run out of energy eventually or forcefield too late and let a big group of lings onto your army. In that case, your stalkers will be resilient if you have blink, but your sentries and immortals will be sitting ducks.
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On April 27 2012 08:06 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 04:54 NrGmonk wrote:On April 27 2012 04:48 kcdc wrote:
Blink makes stalkers about 1,000,000x better for defending zerglings than immortals unless you have an abundance of forcefields. With blink stalkers, it takes a long time to kill lings, but you blink row after row back into more and more narrow spaces and the lings end up only doing shield damage. Immortals don't blink, so they die.
If immortals could blink, they'd be really good against this push. But they can't, so whether they're more cost-effective than stalkers against the Stephano push is really situational. They're definitely not a magic solution like a lot of people imagine them to be. Most people rely on sentries rather than blink stalkers or immortals vs lings. Stephano himself has said that lots of sentries is the key to defending. The only issue I have with getting -lots- of sentries, is that if the Z is doing DRG burrow style, I think you're going to be in alot of trouble. I don't think it's possible to confirm the diff between stephano, and DRG 150~180 with burrow styles - untill you've reached 11:30 and the zerg is not moving out yet (DRG usually hits around 12:30~ 13:00 iirc)
Or drops. I still haven't seen it, but I'm convinced that if Protoss players ever demonstrate that they can take a third and defend this timing attack consistently by walling off and camping behind forcefields, Zergs will add OL drops to the mix and Protoss will chill behind forcefields at his third while his main gets wrecked.
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I've been watching some PvZ's from IPL4 replay pack.
Is fking sad to see that in korean top PvZ, the +50% of the wins for the P come from scouted all-ins. Almost always, when the Z goes for just for fast 3rd, he wins. Nestea vs Squirtle, the score was 4-4 after 2 series, 3 wins for Squirtle comes from scouted all ins from Nestea. For any out there having issues with Z's all ins, well, just go for these replays, and learn how to scout at 5 min mark. No 3rd is a very good sign for the P player. Yes, prolly means all in, but is a so much easier and faster game than vs fast 3rd.
On the fast 3rd nexus build: What worries me about this, is that a really smart Z, will just scout it, cut roaches, and tech the shit up. And while we can agree that the maxed 12 can be stoped (is hard with multi pronged in certain maps, but posible), the switch into fast infestor-spine-brood can be a fking pain. I guess this is why in korea, no protoss goes for a 8 min nexus. And we know that koreans are way ahead of us in theory.
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i usually kill them like i kill all roaches. with blinkstalkers and immortals...
User was warned for this post
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So basically everyone is concluding that the core of your army is blink stalkers for the mid-late game, in PvZ? Because I haven't read about any other kind of army for the last several pages, and I'm not a fan of mediocre tier 1 units for a race with ridiculous tech units available. I'm asking the guys with blue posts and a lot of tournament experience: Does it have to be Stalkers? I really hate using them as the core of my army against Infestors or Hydras or basically anything that doesn't come from a Roach Warren/Spire.
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On April 28 2012 03:52 ineversmile wrote:
So basically everyone is concluding that the core of your army is blink stalkers for the mid-late game, in PvZ? Because I haven't read about any other kind of army for the last several pages, and I'm not a fan of mediocre tier 1 units for a race with ridiculous tech units available. I'm asking the guys with blue posts and a lot of tournament experience: Does it have to be Stalkers? I really hate using them as the core of my army against Infestors or Hydras or basically anything that doesn't come from a Roach Warren/Spire.
what do you want as a core unit? immortals, colossus? nope, sorry, use blinkstaklers (probably the most cost efficient unit with forcefields that toss has).
later on you can use archons though
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On April 28 2012 03:52 ineversmile wrote:
So basically everyone is concluding that the core of your army is blink stalkers for the mid-late game, in PvZ? Because I haven't read about any other kind of army for the last several pages, and I'm not a fan of mediocre tier 1 units for a race with ridiculous tech units available. I'm asking the guys with blue posts and a lot of tournament experience: Does it have to be Stalkers? I really hate using them as the core of my army against Infestors or Hydras or basically anything that doesn't come from a Roach Warren/Spire.
Everyone is talking about a push that happens at 11 minutes and tries to keep you from getting up a third. How is that an assessment of mid-late game armies? In some circumstances, this may be the first time your armies meet up.
What I'm seeing here is that most people are getting early blink stalkers with maybe some Immortals once they confirm roaches, and then - depending on the zerg's tech - getting colossi or templar/archons, and adding a mothership when you see hive tech. All tech options have roles in this.
You're complaining that this doesn't have tech units as the core of their army? Is your game plan 1-gate stargate into triple robo or what?
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On April 28 2012 03:52 ineversmile wrote:
So basically everyone is concluding that the core of your army is blink stalkers for the mid-late game, in PvZ? Because I haven't read about any other kind of army for the last several pages, and I'm not a fan of mediocre tier 1 units for a race with ridiculous tech units available. I'm asking the guys with blue posts and a lot of tournament experience: Does it have to be Stalkers? I really hate using them as the core of my army against Infestors or Hydras or basically anything that doesn't come from a Roach Warren/Spire.
The robo blink route is just to defend the reason of this thread, and stay with good eco.
Acording to what you see with your obs-hallu, a lot can happen: robo-blink push; double robo timing before brood; templar and mothership; dt drop, and so. As i said, it depens 100% on what happens and what you scout between 8 and 12 min.
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On April 28 2012 04:34 Treehead wrote:Everyone is talking about a push that happens at 11 minutes and tries to keep you from getting up a third. How is that an assessment of mid-late game armies? In some circumstances, this may be the first time your armies meet up.
What I'm seeing here is that most people are getting early blink stalkers with maybe some Immortals once they confirm roaches, and then - depending on the zerg's tech - getting colossi or templar/archons, and adding a mothership when you see hive tech. All tech options have roles in this.
You're complaining that this doesn't have tech units as the core of their army? Is your game plan 1-gate stargate into triple robo or what?
Well, in the other 2 match-ups, you don't have to lean on Stalkers--and often Chargelots are just the prefered 'meat' of the army. You still get Stalkers, but it's not because you want to max out on mostly Stalkers with some support units--it's because Stalkers are there to defend drops or deal with air units and because you need some kind of range with any army to punish retreats. But Chargelots tend to get the nod because they are tougher units with higher DPS and a lower cost (especially in that they cost no gas).
What bothers me is that the trend seems to be that blink stalkers (with or without Immortals) are apparantly the only midgame transition available in a lot of these builds that go for the third. Realistically, what else are you going to do, if your infrastructure is a ton of gateways and +2? You can do things like add a couple Robo support units, but your army is still mostly Stalkers. Stalkers are not the unit I want to use against Infestors, Lings, or Hydras. I'm fine with transitioning into them to help against air switches, but I don't really like that these midgame transitions tend to force me into basically massing Blink Stalkers. It's just such a trap...maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like we can do something better.
Granted, I'm not suggesting we use a primarily Chargelot army to fight Roach armies; that's just a ridiculous concept. But if Terrans can Mech, maybe there's some equivalent we can do as Protoss where we don't make lots of Gateway units and instead we use a tech harassment (air/drops as an equivalent to Helion/Banshee harass) and focus on making a higher quality army. That doesn't seem outlandish to me--I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks the same way about another type of army to reach for in the match-up.
On April 28 2012 08:57 Belha wrote:
Acording to what you see with your obs-hallu, a lot can happen: robo-blink push; double robo timing before brood; templar and mothership; dt drop, and so. As i said, it depens 100% on what happens and what you scout between 8 and 12 min.
I understand that the robo blink route is one way that works, but my question is whether or not there is another way of defending a third with a good economy. Is there another way to deal with the potential Roach max push while getting a different type of army? Because if you defend Roach max with Blink Stalker/Immortal, your army is going to be Blink Stalkers and Immortals--at least, for a while. That's the tech that's already in place, those are the units around which you base your upgardes, and you have to use that if under aggression.
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I'm not complaining that Blink Stalkers are underpowered or refusing to make them out of an irrational personal distaste. I just don't like getting pidgeonholed into that unit being the core of my army--and that happens to me so often when I use Blink+Robo to hold a third against the Roach max. I know I'm not the only one because there are plenty of high level games where the Protoss ends up getting stuck on Stalkers for basically the whole game.
Update: Fixed the quote coding (I think).
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Canada13408 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 15:49 ineversmile wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 04:34 Treehead wrote:Everyone is talking about a push that happens at 11 minutes and tries to keep you from getting up a third. How is that an assessment of mid-late game armies? In some circumstances, this may be the first time your armies meet up.
What I'm seeing here is that most people are getting early blink stalkers with maybe some Immortals once they confirm roaches, and then - depending on the zerg's tech - getting colossi or templar/archons, and adding a mothership when you see hive tech. All tech options have roles in this.
You're complaining that this doesn't have tech units as the core of their army? Is your game plan 1-gate stargate into triple robo or what?[/QUOTE]
Well, in the other 2 match-ups, you don't have to lean on Stalkers--and often Chargelots are just the prefered 'meat' of the army. You still get Stalkers, but it's not because you want to max out on mostly Stalkers with some support units--it's because Stalkers are there to defend drops or deal with air units and because you need some kind of range with any army to punish retreats. But Chargelots tend to get the nod because they are tougher units with higher DPS and a lower cost (especially in that they cost no gas).
What bothers me is that the trend seems to be that blink stalkers (with or without Immortals) are apparantly the only midgame transition available in a lot of these builds that go for the third. Realistically, what else are you going to do, if your infrastructure is a ton of gateways and +2? You can do things like add a couple Robo support units, but your army is still mostly Stalkers. Stalkers are not the unit I want to use against Infestors, Lings, or Hydras. I'm fine with transitioning into them to help against air switches, but I don't really like that these midgame transitions tend to force me into basically massing Blink Stalkers. It's just such a trap...maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like we can do something better.
Granted, I'm not suggesting we use a primarily Chargelot army to fight Roach armies; that's just a ridiculous concept. But if Terrans can Mech, maybe there's some equivalent we can do as Protoss where we don't make lots of Gateway units and instead we use a tech harassment (air/drops as an equivalent to Helion/Banshee harass) and focus on making a higher quality army. That doesn't seem outlandish to me--I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks the same way about another type of army to reach for in the match-up.
[quote]On April 28 2012 08:57 Belha wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 03:52 ineversmile wrote:The robo blink route is just to defend the reason of this thread, and stay with good eco.
Acording to what you see with your obs-hallu, a lot can happen: robo-blink push; double robo timing before brood; templar and mothership; dt drop, and so. As i said, it depens 100% on what happens and what you scout between 8 and 12 min.
[/quote]
I understand that the robo blink route is one way that works, but my question is whether or not there is another way of defending a third with a good economy. Is there another way to deal with the potential Roach max push while getting a different type of army? Because if you defend Roach max with Blink Stalker/Immortal, your army is going to be Blink Stalkers and Immortals--at least, for a while. That's the tech that's already in place, those are the units around which you base your upgardes, and you have to use that if under aggression.
____
I'm not complaining that Blink Stalkers are underpowered or refusing to make them out of an irrational personal distaste. I just don't like getting pidgeonholed into that unit being the core of my army--and that happens to me so often when I use Blink+Robo to hold a third against the Roach max. I know I'm not the only one because there are plenty of high level games where the Protoss ends up getting stuck on Stalkers for basically the whole game.[/QUOTE]
You need blink stalkers because mutas are always a potential switch or reaction upon scouting and also because nothing else out of the warpgate can deal with roaches well. WG units build fast and you cant go phoenix immortal to deal with mass roach and potential mutas, stalkers are just better and more versatile.
EDIT: wth happened with the quote bbcode there??
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United States7483 Posts
On April 28 2012 15:49 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 04:34 Treehead wrote:Everyone is talking about a push that happens at 11 minutes and tries to keep you from getting up a third. How is that an assessment of mid-late game armies? In some circumstances, this may be the first time your armies meet up.
What I'm seeing here is that most people are getting early blink stalkers with maybe some Immortals once they confirm roaches, and then - depending on the zerg's tech - getting colossi or templar/archons, and adding a mothership when you see hive tech. All tech options have roles in this.
You're complaining that this doesn't have tech units as the core of their army? Is your game plan 1-gate stargate into triple robo or what? Well, in the other 2 match-ups, you don't have to lean on Stalkers--and often Chargelots are just the prefered 'meat' of the army. You still get Stalkers, but it's not because you want to max out on mostly Stalkers with some support units--it's because Stalkers are there to defend drops or deal with air units and because you need some kind of range with any army to punish retreats. But Chargelots tend to get the nod because they are tougher units with higher DPS and a lower cost (especially in that they cost no gas). What bothers me is that the trend seems to be that blink stalkers (with or without Immortals) are apparantly the only midgame transition available in a lot of these builds that go for the third. Realistically, what else are you going to do, if your infrastructure is a ton of gateways and +2? You can do things like add a couple Robo support units, but your army is still mostly Stalkers. Stalkers are not the unit I want to use against Infestors, Lings, or Hydras. I'm fine with transitioning into them to help against air switches, but I don't really like that these midgame transitions tend to force me into basically massing Blink Stalkers. It's just such a trap...maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like we can do something better. Granted, I'm not suggesting we use a primarily Chargelot army to fight Roach armies; that's just a ridiculous concept. But if Terrans can Mech, maybe there's some equivalent we can do as Protoss where we don't make lots of Gateway units and instead we use a tech harassment (air/drops as an equivalent to Helion/Banshee harass) and focus on making a higher quality army. That doesn't seem outlandish to me--I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks the same way about another type of army to reach for in the match-up. Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 08:57 Belha wrote:On April 28 2012 03:52 ineversmile wrote:The robo blink route is just to defend the reason of this thread, and stay with good eco.
Acording to what you see with your obs-hallu, a lot can happen: robo-blink push; double robo timing before brood; templar and mothership; dt drop, and so. As i said, it depens 100% on what happens and what you scout between 8 and 12 min.
I understand that the robo blink route is one way that works, but my question is whether or not there is another way of defending a third with a good economy. Is there another way to deal with the potential Roach max push while getting a different type of army? Because if you defend Roach max with Blink Stalker/Immortal, your army is going to be Blink Stalkers and Immortals--at least, for a while. That's the tech that's already in place, those are the units around which you base your upgardes, and you have to use that if under aggression. ____ I'm not complaining that Blink Stalkers are underpowered or refusing to make them out of an irrational personal distaste. I just don't like getting pidgeonholed into that unit being the core of my army--and that happens to me so often when I use Blink+Robo to hold a third against the Roach max. I know I'm not the only one because there are plenty of high level games where the Protoss ends up getting stuck on Stalkers for basically the whole game.
Stalkers are versatile and mobile, two things you need to fight against zerg. We don't use them as the core of our army vs. terran because terran DPS is too high against them, and we don't do it in PvP after blink openers are over because the dps of colossi is too high, and their dps is bad vs. unarmored. However, against roaches which are armored and are low dps units, stalkers are quite potent. Their range, speed, and ability to be extremely effective with micro and blink makes them a great choice as the core of your army.
As for being pidgeon-holed: tech costs money, and tech takes time. Add both of those together, and it's not hard to realize why you simply don't have enough units to deal with a stephano 12:00 roach timing while going for a super cost effective doom army. Hell, just look at build times alone and it becomes obvious. High tech units are great, when they are benefiting from a full Protoss army for support, but you simply can't have enough, and you are forced to split your army, which makes aiming for a high tech solution even worse. You just don't have time to get enough high tech units out to deal with it: it's far easier to have a large army of stalkers than it is to have a sentry/immortal/colossi/high templar/archon army or something.
Further, stalkers are a unit that is useful as the core of your army against any composition zerg can throw at you. Deciding what units to make at a given time has more to it than just "What units do I want to have later on."
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On April 28 2012 16:13 ZeromuS wrote:
You need blink stalkers because mutas are always a potential switch or reaction upon scouting and also because nothing else out of the warpgate can deal with roaches well. WG units build fast and you cant go phoenix immortal to deal with mass roach and potential mutas, stalkers are just better and more versatile.
EDIT: wth happened with the quote bbcode there??
And why can't we go Phoenix/Immortal, exactly? Or Phoenix/Void Ray, for that matter....
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On April 28 2012 20:16 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 16:13 ZeromuS wrote:
You need blink stalkers because mutas are always a potential switch or reaction upon scouting and also because nothing else out of the warpgate can deal with roaches well. WG units build fast and you cant go phoenix immortal to deal with mass roach and potential mutas, stalkers are just better and more versatile.
EDIT: wth happened with the quote bbcode there?? And why can't we go Phoenix/Immortal, exactly? Or Phoenix/Void Ray, for that matter....
You can't get enough of them in time to hold a 200/200 army at 12'. It's also an horrible compo versus lings infestors..
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Blink Stalkers is prettymuch horrible against ling/infestor, too, so I don't see how that's even remotely relevant to the discussion.
I feel like I'm talking to a wall.
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Could a BW-style phoenix+DT into zealot+archon force the zerg away from the "12min max roach" strategy? Overlords not having vision naturally plays into this, so protoss might be able to get a safer 3rd since zerg "can't" attack him without detection. Overseer needs lair, but phoenixes can kill those with relative ease anyway. I would imagine hydras not being a huge problem for a chargelot+archon army. Zerg could use infestors but if that happens then we have succeeded in forcing him out of that 12min max roach push. At that point you naturally need to transition out of zealot+archon.
One key question: when should you get templar archives? Morph archons from DTs or should you get high templars for that? Mutas of course require high templars + storm, but if the zerg goes for hydras in response to your stargate units, do you need storm then?
I'm also wondering if you should do this following a FFE or would a gateway expand with faster DTs serve this strategy better. FFE gets you a faster second base, but fast DTs could give you that faster third. DTs forcing the opponent into a certain reaction is just an underused tactic in my opinion.
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So, let me get this straight
In generaly, if i want to opt for a fast third, (assuming it even works) - i can actually just skip immortals altogether?
Or rather, unless your opponent refuses to build lings, immortals have no place in the matchup?
Or do you still have to build some immortals purely to force lings no?
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United States2231 Posts
On April 28 2012 21:59 tuukster wrote:
Could a BW-style phoenix+DT into zealot+archon force the zerg away from the "12min max roach" strategy? Overlords not having vision naturally plays into this, so protoss might be able to get a safer 3rd since zerg "can't" attack him without detection. Overseer needs lair, but phoenixes can kill those with relative ease anyway. I would imagine hydras not being a huge problem for a chargelot+archon army. Zerg could use infestors but if that happens then we have succeeded in forcing him out of that 12min max roach push. At that point you naturally need to transition out of zealot+archon.
One key question: when should you get templar archives? Morph archons from DTs or should you get high templars for that? Mutas of course require high templars + storm, but if the zerg goes for hydras in response to your stargate units, do you need storm then?
I'm also wondering if you should do this following a FFE or would a gateway expand with faster DTs serve this strategy better. FFE gets you a faster second base, but fast DTs could give you that faster third. DTs forcing the opponent into a certain reaction is just an underused tactic in my opinion.
Lair tech is a standard part of the 12 min max as you need roach speed anyway.
The principle shortcomings of 3 base Zerg in BW and all the reasons why corsair DT worked don't apply in SC2.
Spore crawlers are much more acceptable in SC2 as they are pretty much a direct counter to the phoenix and sometimes required. Queens are plentiful to fight off the air-based aggression, so hydras aren't needed, and DTs have been branched off into their own niche tech and had their gas cost increased.
In SC2, a build like that is far too greedy and not nearly effective enough to justify. Basically you're not forcing any special response from Zerg while simultaneously investing in 2 different, heavy gas cost tech trees, neither of which really deals with roaches. Zerg is going to make 3-4 spores, 2 extra queens, and max at 13 minutes instead of 12, but when he gets that max, you'll have nothing to defend it.
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On April 28 2012 15:49 ineversmile wrote:
Realistically, what else are you going to do, if your infrastructure is a ton of gateways and +2?
If you can get a couple warp prisms, zealot warp-ins are quite deadly. At the very least, they force the zerg to keep some units at home, and they combine beautifully with weapon upgrades (as well as with air control, thought that's more tech). You can also incorporate Archon/Immortal without much additional tech.
The trouble is, you have to either go up to three base without dying to roach/ling, or stay on a two-base economy but damage your opponent with a serious harass. And if you sit on two bases, your opponent can leave his units home so that you can't harass.
Perhaps you could take your third and pin the Zerg at home with the threat of a zealot warp-in? If he does go all-out enough to break your third, you could deal enough damage to make the sacrifice worthwhile, provided you can avoid losing your expensive units in the process.
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EPT
