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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
Canada13404 Posts
On April 30 2012 23:43 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:28 Teoita wrote:On April 30 2012 23:19 kcdc wrote:
I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it. That is quite odd why would you use zealots against roaches? The only thing i can think of is that you can save gas for extra sentries. In terms of stats, zealots are P's best unit. If the roaches hold still, there's a good amount of surface area, and P isn't hugely out-numbered, zealots are going to be pretty good. If anyone hasn't watched the IGN FC match between Stephano and MC, check it out and count his zealots when Stephano does his 12 minute roach timing. Then check out your replays and count your zealots at the same time. I'm not saying that this will be an answer, but it might be worth looking into a little more.
Yeah, this is something to look into. Perhaps Roaches are like the Zerg version of a Marauder. With enough stalkers and blink micro you might be ok but really, you want to have zealots for the dps.
The nice thing about zealots defensively is that you force the zerg to kite, which buys you time. If there is a ramp the roaches either walk into a wall of high dps zealots, or they run back down the ramp giving you more time to get more units.
Something to look into. What map was the best example of a hold by MC? I was watching the games while doing something else so I didn't watch too closely.
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The thing about zealots and why they work is because Zerg is the one attacking. This makes Zealots good for the same reason it makes Stalkers bad.
Stalkers want to kite and blink back eternally. When P has to defend his nexus from going down, he can't run forever.
Zealots in the other hand want to stand around and hit stuff. Since you can't back away anyway, taking a stand at the nexus with a zealot heavy army is going to be the best way to maximize your damage potential.
By no means is it going to be a crazy difference, but they are cheaper, warp in faster, and allow for more upgrade investment. You can probably even fit an extra gateway in there.
Definitely go Zealot heavy once the attack is fully underway.
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On May 01 2012 00:54 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:43 kcdc wrote:On April 30 2012 23:28 Teoita wrote:On April 30 2012 23:19 kcdc wrote:
I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it. That is quite odd why would you use zealots against roaches? The only thing i can think of is that you can save gas for extra sentries. In terms of stats, zealots are P's best unit. If the roaches hold still, there's a good amount of surface area, and P isn't hugely out-numbered, zealots are going to be pretty good. If anyone hasn't watched the IGN FC match between Stephano and MC, check it out and count his zealots when Stephano does his 12 minute roach timing. Then check out your replays and count your zealots at the same time. I'm not saying that this will be an answer, but it might be worth looking into a little more. Yeah, this is something to look into. Perhaps Roaches are like the Zerg version of a Marauder. With enough stalkers and blink micro you might be ok but really, you want to have zealots for the dps. The nice thing about zealots defensively is that you force the zerg to kite, which buys you time. If there is a ramp the roaches either walk into a wall of high dps zealots, or they run back down the ramp giving you more time to get more units. Something to look into. What map was the best example of a hold by MC? I was watching the games while doing something else so I didn't watch too closely.
Game 8 maybe? MC always went for pressure before exapnding, so there's no perfect, sterile example in the series. I just noticed that MC always had way more zealots than I would have had in the same situation. It didn't work for him every time, but it gave his army some extra beef and it let him crank out more sentries. Zealots also make immortals much better by killing zerglings quickly.
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On May 01 2012 00:24 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:21 Clarity_nl wrote:On April 30 2012 23:50 Fogetaboudit wrote:I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying? at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them) Do you have like... anything on the ground? Or are you just blind countering this style? Seriously, your answer is mass voidrays? I'd love to see a replay and would like you to tell us what league you are in. I'm midmasters as Protoss, but I have beaten much better Zergs. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
So when I'm at 120 supply with 30 roaches, and I scout your double stargate, I'm supposed to keep maxing roaches?
I haven't played against this style but the way I'd instinctively react would be:
I'll get gasses 5+6, infestation pit + 4th base -> spire+hive. Corruptors (despite popular belief) are pretty good against void rays. You can have your third, but you'll lose because your army is crap once I get infestors out.
Otherwise, assuming I don't scout it:
I tend to start pressuring with roaches before hitting max (once speed is done), to see what's out there. Again I haven't played against your build at all, but I can't imagine you having more than 2 voids out at this point.
Can you afford sentries in time?
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One downside to zealots is it increases the number of roaches attacking. If you simply A move the roaches, quite a few roaches that are in range of the buildings DON'T attack the buildings and instead attempt to funnel through a small choke to get to the sentries/stalkers/cannons shooting at them. I am pretty sure this is the AI prioritizing trying to attack the attacking units. With zealots there the roaches that are not in range of the stalkers/sentries will target them.
This might not matter on the higher level as I am sure better zergs can select a subset of the roaches and have them focus down a building in a few volleys, so there aren't as many roaches not in attacking range.
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Zealots have to be combined with FFs for them to be useful, otherwise roaches are able to kite back and kill the zealots. However, you have to achieve surface area and to segment off roaches that are behind the FFs to prevent them from attacking your zealots at range.
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Canada13404 Posts
On May 01 2012 01:51 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:54 ZeromuS wrote:On April 30 2012 23:43 kcdc wrote:On April 30 2012 23:28 Teoita wrote:On April 30 2012 23:19 kcdc wrote:
I don't mean an 8 minute zealot timing--I'm talking about how MC uses a lot of zealots in his army to defend his third. I don't see other players do it. That is quite odd why would you use zealots against roaches? The only thing i can think of is that you can save gas for extra sentries. In terms of stats, zealots are P's best unit. If the roaches hold still, there's a good amount of surface area, and P isn't hugely out-numbered, zealots are going to be pretty good. If anyone hasn't watched the IGN FC match between Stephano and MC, check it out and count his zealots when Stephano does his 12 minute roach timing. Then check out your replays and count your zealots at the same time. I'm not saying that this will be an answer, but it might be worth looking into a little more. Yeah, this is something to look into. Perhaps Roaches are like the Zerg version of a Marauder. With enough stalkers and blink micro you might be ok but really, you want to have zealots for the dps. The nice thing about zealots defensively is that you force the zerg to kite, which buys you time. If there is a ramp the roaches either walk into a wall of high dps zealots, or they run back down the ramp giving you more time to get more units. Something to look into. What map was the best example of a hold by MC? I was watching the games while doing something else so I didn't watch too closely. Game 8 maybe? MC always went for pressure before exapnding, so there's no perfect, sterile example in the series. I just noticed that MC always had way more zealots than I would have had in the same situation. It didn't work for him every time, but it gave his army some extra beef and it let him crank out more sentries. Zealots also make immortals much better by killing zerglings quickly.
I just watched the game. What MC does is open with pheonix and one void ray which allows him to not worry about an initial wave of mutalisks. As a result he gets +1 attack and +1 armour from the forge before a twilight.
MC also gets 3 gates and a single robo after the stargate. So his infrastructure when taking the third consists of 4 gates, 1 robo, one stargate. He is very cautious with his air units, and doesnt harass stephano with it at all. I think keeping the void ray alive to defend at home is key alongside using the pheonix to kill any overlords along the attack path and lifting one roach at a time to weaken the attack from stephano with pheonix.
By focusing on zealots (he has 2 stalkers only when roaches first come to the third) he is able to get a lot of sentries (about 6) and is also able to tech very quickly to collossus after making two immortals. This style relies heavily on forcefields to trap a small number of roaches to prevent kiting and kill them with the zealots.
I do not think this is good for a max roach attack where Zerg sits at home makes 200/200 and then attacks. BUT its great for the initial pressure when they move across the map while they max out. At these small numbers of roaches it seems like zealots and forcefields can make the trade efficient for MC while allowing him to tech quickly up to AoE.
I can only surmise that the reason he doesn't make stalkers is because he WANTS to have AoE vs a roach blob very very fast. As soon as collossus are out and the third is set up he gets stalkers. '
So far we have been thinking about making stalkers and using the 5/6 gas to unlock tech. What if, we should be getting 5/6 gas to unlock stalkers when we open with stargate first. By doing this, the small roach numbers are more easily dealt with with high dps units earlier. Stalkers are really good vs roaches in larger numbers, but earlier they aren't so good when the range advantage isn't as apparent especially when defending. Then we can also have faster AoE which helps with that timing where the supply is so much higher for Zerg.
One thing I have learned is the only way to overcome a big supply disadvantage is to have AoE or vastly superior upgrades. Roaches scale very well vs Stalkers and zealots with upgrades, and the cost of the units means that the upgrades don't help us, so all we can do is go for AoE, some anchor units like immortals and good forcefields to trade efficiently early to keep max roaches at bay for longer. You cant hit 200/200 if you lose 30 supply with every wave.
MC adds more gateways once the third is fully established and makes lots of stalkers while getting blink after getting +2 first. So in this way once the roaches come and try to attack you if he waited to hit max first, you have a big enough army to split and defend or fight head on.
On May 01 2012 02:07 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:24 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 01 2012 00:21 Clarity_nl wrote:On April 30 2012 23:50 Fogetaboudit wrote:I'm sorry, at the 12 minute mark? How are you going to hold non stop roaches and still produce a stargate to pump void rays without dying? at 12 minutes I have 5 void rays and a mothership, at 12:30 I have 7 Void rays and a mothership. at 13 I have 10 cannons protecting my third with the mothership cloaking them, prepared to recall void rays if needed (I'm harassing the zergs third and scouting with them) Do you have like... anything on the ground? Or are you just blind countering this style? Seriously, your answer is mass voidrays? I'd love to see a replay and would like you to tell us what league you are in. I'm midmasters as Protoss, but I have beaten much better Zergs. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403 So when I'm at 120 supply with 30 roaches, and I scout your double stargate, I'm supposed to keep maxing roaches? I haven't played against this style but the way I'd instinctively react would be: I'll get gasses 5+6, infestation pit + 4th base -> spire+hive. Corruptors (despite popular belief) are pretty good against void rays. You can have your third, but you'll lose because your army is crap once I get infestors out. Otherwise, assuming I don't scout it: I tend to start pressuring with roaches before hitting max (once speed is done), to see what's out there. Again I haven't played against your build at all, but I can't imagine you having more than 2 voids out at this point. Can you afford sentries in time?
As far as I understand, the mothership build there relies on a zerg blindly doing max roach. Just doing it cuz hes stubborn. Dealing with mass voids is however difficult that I won't deny. If the Zerg gets really good fungals, I don't see it working out for protoss though.
Its kind of gimmicky imo. You can harass them so long as they don't defend well but you can't actually attack until you have a mothership. You need the mothership so that mass hydras stop being effective. The idea being that with everything cloaked, a lot of charged void rays would kill overseers super fast. Vortex to split the hydras in half would make a huge difference as well.
But, if they engage you with fungal or a lot of hydras before the voids are charged and before you have a mothership you lose the game. With good fungals, the void rays just die or even if instead of roaches, on a good solid high econ they make a lot of corruptors you could lose if they have too many and engage you before mothership has a vortex ready.
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On May 01 2012 00:34 Heavenlee wrote:
70 roaches will destroy everything you have while 5 voidrays and a mothership take at least a minute to kill them. It's not some gateways and probes, it's your third, natural, and tech structures while splitting some off to deal with all your probes. Go in the unit tester and see how long it takes for voidrays to kill that big of an army, unless you somehow managed to get two stargate voidrays, a mothership, a third, and mass mass cannons at 12 minutes.
At first I didn't understand, but he's advocating going pure voidrays and cannons, no gate units. Question is how many cannons do you need to hold a 200/200 roach army with 5-7 voidrays and a mothership ? Also don't forget that you can snippe overseers if he's on pure roaches, and once your cannons/wall is hidden, he can't attack it anymore. The idea sounds pretty interesting to me.
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In unit tester, I'm finding that 20 photon cannons is still insufficient to hold off 50 Roaches. The results are much better if I place a wall of gateways in front of the cannons (16 cannons barely holds), but I don't know what we would use for that role in a no-ground-unit game - including Stargates as part of the wall sounds like asking for trouble to me.
Adding void rays to the battle does next to nothing. Void ray DPS, even vs armored units, is just horrible.
Adding a Mothership makes things much more promising, but I'm not sure how we're supposed to have a cannon wall, a mothership, and three bases at the 12 minute mark. If we do somehow get to that stage, our stargate units can pick off essentially any number of overseers, rendering whichever base the Mothership is at invincible.
Fun fact! If we expect to keep the Zerg detection-free, and they try to send their roaches past us, we can vortex them and then build a cage around the vortex while it is active. With no way to attack the objects which are keeping them penned in, the Roaches are rendered harmless indefinitely.
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Sorry if I sounded aggressive. I can be a little too determined, even if I'm wrong, in what I believe.
Now I don't think I'm wrong here, but I think I'm failing to communicate something here:
Yea, its hard as fuck to deal with, and I think I'm making it sound a llot easier to deal with than it really is. Its definetely not 'ludicrously bad' as I think I may be making it sound. No denying mass roach seems to work more often that it doesn't. What I see of stephano a lot of times is a deliberate production more heavier on lings than roaches, so he isn't as allin. But he's definetely turned on the july switch on a toss being too greedy.
Its an attack that's strong, and can be done reactively if you see toss, say, going deathball, or on open maps. If you don't do enoug damage, and toss starts getting a tech advantage, he can come out ahead. But on many maps, its probably more likely to work than not.
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On May 01 2012 06:41 Crow! wrote:
In unit tester, I'm finding that 20 photon cannons is still insufficient to hold off 50 Roaches. The results are much better if I place a wall of gateways in front of the cannons (16 cannons barely holds), but I don't know what we would use for that role in a no-ground-unit game - including Stargates as part of the wall sounds like asking for trouble to me.
Adding void rays to the battle does next to nothing. Void ray DPS, even vs armored units, is just horrible.
Adding a Mothership makes things much more promising, but I'm not sure how we're supposed to have a cannon wall, a mothership, and three bases at the 12 minute mark. If we do somehow get to that stage, our stargate units can pick off essentially any number of overseers, rendering whichever base the Mothership is at invincible.
Fun fact! If we expect to keep the Zerg detection-free, and they try to send their roaches past us, we can vortex them and then build a cage around the vortex while it is active. With no way to attack the objects which are keeping them penned in, the Roaches are rendered harmless indefinitely.
Only a Diamond Protoss (for now ; ) I have been trying to deny the third as best I can vs these styles, usually with some small gateway timing with mostly zealots + a few sentries (depending on the ramp I'm trying to hold) and a few stalkers. Then I go right into stargate and a fleetbeacon and start massing carriers asap (even getting +1 air attack instead of any ground upgrades). I feel like if I hide my carriers long enough (I may need to reveal them to defend my 3rd or at least make it not cost effective for the roaches to just sit there targeting it down) I have a chance to do good enough damage and keep transitioning (blink stalkers with a robo) or just keep massing the carriers if I feel like I can snipe their spire or whatever.
I need to experiment more with using a mothership to recall the carriers because many games that I go carriers I end up having to pressure with them before I have a good enough number of them and the zerg can just mass some corruptors and target them down pretty easily, but if I use them to harass and then recall them before anything can happen, I can keep the carrier # up. I feel like going straight for carriers (getting like A phoenix to scout and kill ovies in some cases) can be pretty effective vs someone who is droning a ton and investing in mostly roaches and zerglings. Then its just up to you to use ff and cannons with air support to hold the masses off.
Edit: I usually don't take my 3rd until after I've started to produce carriers and I think I can defend 2 base well enough with gateway units and cannons (only like 3-4 gates).
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Enough with the heavy zealot or main chargelot army please. Any decent player knows that are totally useless vs mass roaches. Why? Beacuse a kited roach ball can attack all at once because of the range, while zealot will hit 1 time at every charge cooldown only front zealots will hit.
On the other hand, the best ground army posible for protoss at 11/12/13 min MUST have some zealots. The ideal engagement is trap some roaches and fight, and during that fight zealots will hit with almost full dps and meatshiled very cost efficiently. While i like the Ranged version for fast 3rd, i personaly prefer the Titan zealot-sentry-immorthal THEN blink stalker oriented build (more similar to what we see from MC, or the ground army of the void-5phoenix genius build).
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United States8476 Posts
On May 01 2012 06:58 Belial88 wrote:
Sorry if I sounded aggressive. I can be a little too determined, even if I'm wrong, in what I believe.
Now I don't think I'm wrong here, but I think I'm failing to communicate something here:
Yea, its hard as fuck to deal with, and I think I'm making it sound a llot easier to deal with than it really is. No denying mass roach seems to work more often that it doesn't. What I see of stephano a lot of times is a deliberate production more heavier on lings than roaches, so he isn't as allin. But he's definetely turned on the july switch on a toss being too greedy.
I don't understand how you can think you're right after everyone in this thread has corrected you. Again, this seems to be a common theme with you.
You don't see zergs go 200/200 roach for the most part, for a reason. It's all-in. It's not all-in as a 6 pool drone pull, but it's pretty all-in.
I don't want to say anything mean here... but... there's like a reason no one really does this anymore. Good luck winning against Toss who has blink or tier 3 colossus or lots of immortals, and you are still on just t1 roaches.
Completely wrong. This is by far the most used ZvP style that exists. Stephano does it or some variation of it in about 75% of his PvZs. DRG also uses it in about 2/3 of his PvZs. Nestea employs it almost every time he's not 2 base cheesing. From IPL4 alone, Stephano used it in every single one of his ZvPs. Nestea used it at least twice. Oh and it has an absurd high win rate; when Stephano does it, it's close to 100%.
This is not the Stephano style roach max build. This is a 6 gas Roach max build into ling muta style that attacks much much later.
I don't ever see stephano do it recently.
Look. day9 even did a daily about it. I wouldn't think he'd make a day9 daily about it if it wasn't his style:
Stephano is known for more than 1 thing. Previously, he was most known for turtle infestor broodlord play. More recently, his style always revolves around this "roach max".
I don't really think your understanding of the match-up is perfect, and there are plenty of stuff about max roach (which is not stephano style.... many, many people did 11 minute max roaches before stephano, and stephano doesnt even go 11 minute max roaches, he goes mass infestors and fast hive turtle style).
No one maxed at 11 minutes before Stephano. Again, you don't understand the Stephano build and interpret it as just a roach max build. Kyrix might have done it before, but his way was much less refined and specific. The Stephano Roach build is relatively new and even Stephano has never shown his new faster 11 minute max in a tournament game.
Guide to beating mass roach 11 minute max: Dont be dumb enough to have your units sit out in the open when you know zerg's econ has kicked in from 3 bases and he has map control. Make enough sentries, with void rays/immortals/blinkstalkers, and eventually take third and go for colossi. Zerg will lose, because his tech will be so far behind. It's extremely all-in to max roaches.
Wtf is this? If it were that easy, why would this thread go up to 70 pages? What do you think you're contributing to this thread that other people haven't?
In conclusion, you have a very poor understanding of the build. Please stop posting in this thread.
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On May 01 2012 07:17 NrGmonk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 01 2012 06:58 Belial88 wrote:
Sorry if I sounded aggressive. I can be a little too determined, even if I'm wrong, in what I believe.
Now I don't think I'm wrong here, but I think I'm failing to communicate something here:
Yea, its hard as fuck to deal with, and I think I'm making it sound a llot easier to deal with than it really is. No denying mass roach seems to work more often that it doesn't. What I see of stephano a lot of times is a deliberate production more heavier on lings than roaches, so he isn't as allin. But he's definetely turned on the july switch on a toss being too greedy. I don't understand how you can think you're right after everyone in this thread has corrected you. Again, this seems to be a common theme with you. You don't see zergs go 200/200 roach for the most part, for a reason. It's all-in. It's not all-in as a 6 pool drone pull, but it's pretty all-in.
I don't want to say anything mean here... but... there's like a reason no one really does this anymore. Good luck winning against Toss who has blink or tier 3 colossus or lots of immortals, and you are still on just t1 roaches. Completely wrong. This is by far the most used ZvP style that exists. Stephano does it or some variation of it in about 75% of his PvZs. DRG also uses it in about 2/3 of his PvZs. Nestea employs it almost every time he's not 2 base cheesing. From IPL4 alone, Stephano used it in every single one of his ZvPs. Nestea used it at least twice. Oh and it has an absurd high win rate; when Stephano does it, it's close to 100%. This is not the Stephano style roach max build. This is a 6 gas Roach max build into ling muta style that attacks much much later. I don't ever see stephano do it recently.
Look. day9 even did a daily about it. I wouldn't think he'd make a day9 daily about it if it wasn't his style: Stephano is known for more than 1 thing. Previously, he was most known for turtle infestor broodlord play. More recently, his style always revolves around this "roach max". I don't really think your understanding of the match-up is perfect, and there are plenty of stuff about max roach (which is not stephano style.... many, many people did 11 minute max roaches before stephano, and stephano doesnt even go 11 minute max roaches, he goes mass infestors and fast hive turtle style). No one maxed at 11 minutes before Stephano. Again, you don't understand the Stephano build and interpret it as just a roach max build. Kyrix might have done it before, but his way was much less refined and specific. The Stephano Roach build is relatively new and even Stephano has never shown his new faster 11 minute max in a tournament game. Guide to beating mass roach 11 minute max: Dont be dumb enough to have your units sit out in the open when you know zerg's econ has kicked in from 3 bases and he has map control. Make enough sentries, with void rays/immortals/blinkstalkers, and eventually take third and go for colossi. Zerg will lose, because his tech will be so far behind. It's extremely all-in to max roaches. Wtf is this? If it were that easy, why would this thread go up to 70 pages? What do you think you're contributing to this thread that other people haven't? In conclusion, you have a very poor understanding of the build. Please stop posting in this thread.
A fantastic verbal beat down. Thank you.  As a Z player who employs this strat at a bad mid-Master's level, I find the discussion fascinating. Thanks for all the positive contributions and discussion.
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On May 01 2012 03:16 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:34 Heavenlee wrote:
70 roaches will destroy everything you have while 5 voidrays and a mothership take at least a minute to kill them. It's not some gateways and probes, it's your third, natural, and tech structures while splitting some off to deal with all your probes. Go in the unit tester and see how long it takes for voidrays to kill that big of an army, unless you somehow managed to get two stargate voidrays, a mothership, a third, and mass mass cannons at 12 minutes. At first I didn't understand, but he's advocating going pure voidrays and cannons, no gate units. Question is how many cannons do you need to hold a 200/200 roach army with 5-7 voidrays and a mothership ? Also don't forget that you can snippe overseers if he's on pure roaches, and once your cannons/wall is hidden, he can't attack it anymore. The idea sounds pretty interesting to me.
Also, your production is constant, the first wave is the hardest and will take awhile to kill, but from then on it will just get easier as the VR count gets higher.
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On April 30 2012 22:59 kcdc wrote:
Belial, Stephano is famous for doing a maxed speed roach timing attack between 11 and 12 minutes. He does it just about every game that Protoss tries to take a third. If he fails to win at this point, he'll get a bunch of spines and tech to BL+infestor.
The 11 minute timing is not an all-in, but it is an invested attack, and it's much better for Z if it does damage. While other Zergs have done big speed roach attacks for a long time, Stephano has made a career out of doing the same build (which is safe in the squisy 7-9 minute period and has this attack at 11 minutes) almost every game, and he does it better than anyone else (DRG is on about the same level).
To everyone else:
MC is better against this attack than anyone else as far as I can tell, and it seems like one difference is that MC makes more zealots. Has the discussion in this thread dismissed zealots too quickly?
I'm sure it has. Zealots demolish any zerg ground unit in a straight up fight, which forces the Zerg to kite and stay out of focus-fire range of your expensive units. Zealot durability:cost and DPS:cost are about twice that of Stalkers/Immortals; they only lose because they don't get to fight. It kills me to see Protoss players warp new Stalkers in next to a roach army.
...has anyone tried using Warp Prisms to force zealot surrounds on Roach armies? We didn't use shuttles for that purpose in BW because hydras shot up and because scourge were everpresent, but now you're talking a ground-to-ground Zerg...
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As far as I understand, the mothership build there relies on a zerg blindly doing max roach. Just doing it cuz hes stubborn. Dealing with mass voids is however difficult that I won't deny. If the Zerg gets really good fungals, I don't see it working out for protoss though.
Its kind of gimmicky imo. You can harass them so long as they don't defend well but you can't actually attack until you have a mothership. You need the mothership so that mass hydras stop being effective. The idea being that with everything cloaked, a lot of charged void rays would kill overseers super fast. Vortex to split the hydras in half would make a huge difference as well.
But, if they engage you with fungal or a lot of hydras before the voids are charged and before you have a mothership you lose the game. With good fungals, the void rays just die or even if instead of roaches, on a good solid high econ they make a lot of corruptors you could lose if they have too many and engage you before mothership has a vortex ready.
It's not gimmicky, it holds any pressure on the third, and isn't really exploitable after being scouted, and leads to a macro game.
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I don't understand how you can think you're right after everyone in this thread has corrected you. Again, this seems to be a common theme with you.
I argued with someone on that mass roach is not all-innish. I strongly disagree, and the korean commentators of that replay example I provided, said the exact same thing. If toss can survive the mass roach by getting immortals out and his third in reasonable time, the zerg's muta or infestors will just be too late and too small to keep P from pushing too hard.
I don't think it's that novel of an idea. You max out on tier 1 units, instead of putting that gas into tier2 or 3, you will be behind in tech against a toss who's massing tier 2 and 3. That's not even mentioning the sacrifice to econ.
I stated that mass roach can be deadly, and more often than not it can do damage, especially on certain maps. That doesn't change the fact that if the aggression fails to do enough damage, it puts you way behind.
Completely wrong. This is by far the most used ZvP style that exists. Stephano does it or some variation of it in about 75% of his PvZs. DRG also uses it in about 2/3 of his PvZs. Nestea employs it almost every time he's not 2 base cheesing. From IPL4 alone, Stephano used it in every single one of his ZvPs. Nestea used it at least twice. Oh and it has an absurd high win rate; when Stephano does it, it's close to 100%.
I rarely see it in the GSL. There's a difference between max roach, and lots of roaches with heavy lings, to pressure the third.
This is not the Stephano style roach max build. This is a 6 gas Roach max build into ling muta style that attacks much much later.
The concept is the same. Max out on roaches, your tech will be behind. His attack may have been later, but it meant his tech wasn't as far behind, at the cost of the strength of the build. Either way, the more roaches a zerg makes, the further behind their tech will be, and possibly their econ.
It's a strong style, but it's not without it's faults.
No one maxed at 11 minutes before Stephano. Again, you don't understand the Stephano build and interpret it as just a roach max build. Kyrix might have done it before, but his way was much less refined and specific. The Stephano Roach build is relatively new and even Stephano has never shown his new faster 11 minute max in a tournament game.
Okay, that's fine. I'm just saying it's kind of all-innish. That's not to say it isn't strong, and I'll concede that maybe stephano does it a lot. Whatever. I'm just saying if Toss holds, Zerg ends up far behind.
Or does everyone just think zerg is OP, and that every zerg will soon be doing this every game? Because I think ZvP is fairly well balanced, and I don't think every zerg will be doing this.
Wtf is this? If it were that easy, why would this thread go up to 70 pages? What do you think you're contributing to this thread that other people haven't?
I stated that in my comments, I might have made it seem much easier to handle that it really is. I apologized for that impression, but that was not my intention.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 01 2012 13:34 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I don't understand how you can think you're right after everyone in this thread has corrected you. Again, this seems to be a common theme with you. I argued with someone on that mass roach is not all-innish. I strongly disagree, and the korean commentators of that replay example I provided, said the exact same thing. If toss can survive the mass roach by getting immortals out and his third in reasonable time, the zerg's muta or infestors will just be too late and too small to keep P from pushing too hard.
That game you linked was played before Stephano's style got really popular, so the korean commentators aren't too familiar with the style. Yes, if it does 0 damage, you're behind. This is true with all aggression builds.
I don't think it's that novel of an idea. You max out on tier 1 units, instead of putting that gas into tier2 or 3, you will be behind in tech against a toss who's massing tier 2 and 3. That's not even mentioning the sacrifice to econ.
-_- Again, shows a really low understanding of the style.
I stated that mass roach can be deadly, and more often than not it can do damage, especially on certain maps. That doesn't change the fact that if the aggression fails to do enough damage, it puts you way behind.
You fail to recognize that it has about a 95% win rate.
Show nested quote +Completely wrong. This is by far the most used ZvP style that exists. Stephano does it or some variation of it in about 75% of his PvZs. DRG also uses it in about 2/3 of his PvZs. Nestea employs it almost every time he's not 2 base cheesing. From IPL4 alone, Stephano used it in every single one of his ZvPs. Nestea used it at least twice. Oh and it has an absurd high win rate; when Stephano does it, it's close to 100%.
I rarely see it in the GSL. There's a difference between max roach, and lots of roaches with heavy lings, to pressure the third.
Just because you don't see it in the GSL, seemingly the only tournament you watch, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. All zergs have been knocked out really early this season and the only players that really use it are Stephano/DRG/Nestea, coincidentally(or not) the 3 best zergs in the world. This build is VERY commonly seen at foreigner tournaments. Even in the GSL, DRG uses it, for example against Parting last season.
When people say maxing on roach, they usually mean getting as many roaches as they can with their 4 gas and the rest goes to lings, so it's usually 10-15 supply of lings mixed in there.
Show nested quote +This is not the Stephano style roach max build. This is a 6 gas Roach max build into ling muta style that attacks much much later. The concept is the same. Max out on roaches, your tech will be behind. His attack may have been later, but it meant his tech wasn't as far behind, at the cost of the strength of the build. Either way, the more roaches a zerg makes, the further behind their tech will be, and possibly their econ.
No, it's not the same AT ALL. Maxing on roaches between 11-12 minutes with 60-65 drones is completely different from maxing at 15 minutes with with 70+ drones and 6 gas.
Show nested quote +Wtf is this? If it were that easy, why would this thread go up to 70 pages? What do you think you're contributing to this thread that other people haven't? I stated that in my comments, I might have made it seem much easier to handle that it really is. I apologized for that impression, but that was not my intention.
What makes you think you know better than everyone who has posted here? It's offensive that you suddenly come in here, making huge posts about this topic while being completely uninformed, thinking you know better than everyone else. You're not contributing at all with your posts, so again please stop if you have nothing to contribute.
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On May 01 2012 06:41 Crow! wrote:
In unit tester, I'm finding that 20 photon cannons is still insufficient to hold off 50 Roaches. The results are much better if I place a wall of gateways in front of the cannons (16 cannons barely holds), but I don't know what we would use for that role in a no-ground-unit game - including Stargates as part of the wall sounds like asking for trouble to me.
Adding void rays to the battle does next to nothing. Void ray DPS, even vs armored units, is just horrible.
Adding a Mothership makes things much more promising, but I'm not sure how we're supposed to have a cannon wall, a mothership, and three bases at the 12 minute mark. If we do somehow get to that stage, our stargate units can pick off essentially any number of overseers, rendering whichever base the Mothership is at invincible.
Fun fact! If we expect to keep the Zerg detection-free, and they try to send their roaches past us, we can vortex them and then build a cage around the vortex while it is active. With no way to attack the objects which are keeping them penned in, the Roaches are rendered harmless indefinitely.
This screenshot is at 13 minutes, I have slightly less at 12 minutes, ofc, but you get the general idea.
In this game the Zerg is going for 1/1 Roach hydra bust on my third. this is not as hard to hold as just pure roaches Stefano style. what will happen is the roaches will try to micro around run around and do as much damage as they can before I get enough of a critical mass of Void rays and cannons to hold everything off and stabalize. Whats key is that my army is never touched, like a standard army would be just traded over and over, and his is army is completely traded off (or retreating) in exchange for some damage to my base.
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/Screenshot2012-05-0105_45_33.jpg)
