EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 19
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
On March 18 2012 14:36 kcdc wrote: FFE straight to dual stalker is a cute idea. I don't think you could skip the cannon tho--you'd have lings in your mineral lines long before you got the stalkers out. The standard right now seems to be zergling speed finishing at ~9 min, so you'd have about 2 minutes to poke around with stalkers off of a FFE. You might not do any real damage tho if they just get a spine at their 3rd and their natural and micro their queens a bit, but it'd be worth testing out. The only downside is that you're building early stalkers, and stalkers kind of suck compared to getting sentries early to accumulate energy or spending the gas on tech. Yeah you'd need the cannon for sure but I think if you possibly only take 1 gas initially or even 2 gas and have only 4 mining you could just barley squeeze out 4-6 (6 may be to optimistic) stalkers quick enough to get something done, on a side note I actually saw NaNiwa open 2 Gate after FFE (with a cannon of course) and produce sentries off 2 Gates. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
Or, heck -- as soon as you've confirmed the build in some fashion, go up to three robos and chrono out mass immortals. Have you tried your 1 gate robo 7 minute expand, following up with 2-3 robos? You're not going to want Stalkers against a wall of Roaches; they cost too much for too little DPS. You're not going to want to keep building Sentries after the Roach hordes kick into gear; they won't have enough mana to be worthwhile. Immortals seem like the unit of choice, but you can't build enough if you only have one robotics... If attacing pre-roach is still on the table, you might also consider pulling several probes with your attack, to serve as a mobile barrier and to throw up pylons in combat. They're very awkward to micro Zerglings against. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + White-Ra did a fast 3rd Play on Daybreak against Stephano yesterday. He drew Stephanos Ling-Attention with a single attacking Zealot to get his 3rd up unspoted. Stephano proceded with his Roach/Ling Timing anyways and though White-Ra had a solid Wall at his third and plenty of Sentries at the Rock-Ramp to his Natural he missed the forcefields to block Stephano out, which resulted in flooding the the 3rd from 2 Sides and White-Ra's Natural and a gg soon after. Small contribution from my Side: Dont know if it has been already mentioned but I think its advisable to expand to your 3rd on as few gatways as possible. The intention behind this is to use the needed gateways to wall your 3rd and by that preventing roaches to simply rush in and killing probes/the nexus. Every Game I took a pre 10min 3rd I had a _much_ easier time defending when I used at least Gates 5-8 to wall the 3rd. | ||
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Startyr
Scotland188 Posts
I do not think there is a simple answer other than being able to keep up with the zergs economy and being efficient with units. | ||
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Nis
Singapore45 Posts
1) Highly dependable on map that has defensible thirds. Seems really hard (if not impossible)to hold third with this style of play on maps like Korhal, where the third is vulnerable due to distance + multiple avenues of attack. You are forced to spilt your army to defend multiple areas which is exactly what the zerg wants since their army is more effective in smaller engagements. The lack of information on how the zerg is spitting his army also affects your defense greatly. 2) The build requires heavy investment into immortals before you are even absolutely sure that zerg is committing heavily into roaches. An adaptable zerg who sees the early third at the late 8-9 min mark can drop a spire, take the remaining gases from their 3 bases, and hit with a nasty timing with mutas before blink / storm is done. In those 2 scenarios, even if you manage to hold the third, if you take significant worker losses you are back to square one. Stretched thin without the ability to saturate and enjoy the income off 3 bases while zerg takes their fourth and remaxes, then hit you over and over. I believe that barring 2 base all ins, the standard and only effective way to play against this is to go fast single stargate (with first 150g off FFE, as mentioned by some in the thread. The advantages this build give is the golden rule that protoss need to observe when playing against zerg: the need to apply pressure and prevent zerg from going full macro mode and just overwhelming protoss. The build also has the advantage of been stable and safe against zerg's all ins. With the SG opening, single or double void ray followed up by 5-6 phoenix basically forces your zerg opponent to drop spores on all 3 bases, and build extra queens. This comes at the timing where zerg is trying to saturate their third (around 7+ to 8 min) so every spore they build, every extra queen they build and every worker/queen you kill slows the zerg economy significantly. Especially the queen at their third, which will often cause them to miss injects. More importantly, no matter how skilled your opponent is at deflecting stargate play, he will have to make anti-air commitments. The best part with this stargate harrass is that the ball is in your court. If you micro well you will not lose any units, while almost guaranteed to kill some units. While you wont kill a competent opponent or deny expansions, you still slow them significantly and get perfect scout on their tech followup. Whether they are adding a hydra den, infestation pit or spire, you can tech accordingly and secure your third. The additional benefit comes from the ability to kill overlords and scouting lings all around the map once zerg lockdowns their 3 bases nicely and you can do no more damage without losing units. You gain a lot of map vision and deny the map vision that zergs are so used to having. You can possibly keep them in the dark for a while when you take a third, as opposed to them knowing exactly when you have expanded and hit you at a perfect timing. With good map vision, you will also know how to spilt your army effectively to defend multiple areas, with fast air units reinforcing areas that are at the threat of getting breached. TLDR: FFE into single SG openings with void ray/phoenix pressure has the benefits of applying pressure, slowing down the zerg economy, giving map vision and scouting while at the same time denying zerg map vision. The scout you obtain allows you to go appropriate tech path to counter zerg and secure a third edit - grammer | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On March 18 2012 21:13 scsnow wrote: Shets challenge at Red Bull Lan was how to play vs stargate into early third in PvZ, so probably that is a good strat if he says he has problems with it Exactly, I feel like stargate is the best thing to do against it. We also saw Sheth having big problems with this. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 18 2012 14:36 kcdc wrote: FFE straight to dual stalker is a cute idea. I don't think you could skip the cannon tho--you'd have lings in your mineral lines long before you got the stalkers out. The standard right now seems to be zergling speed finishing at ~9 min, so you'd have about 2 minutes to poke around with stalkers off of a FFE. You might not do any real damage tho if they just get a spine at their 3rd and their natural and micro their queens a bit, but it'd be worth testing out. The only downside is that you're building early stalkers, and stalkers kind of suck compared to getting sentries early to accumulate energy or spending the gas on tech. Stalker pressure of FFE is just too risky I think. There is generally no way to know if they finish speedlings at 7 or at 9 for example. And if it does work the damage you can do is probably very minimal as even slowlings can defend stalkers a bit if they are good with their creep spread. | ||
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
I go for 2 base chrono non-stop on the nexus and get to 44/46 probes with two gas. Build 4 gates first and start moving out, while the other 4 are warping in. By the time they finish you should be at the 3rd hatch and with a proxy pylon start warping in. Usually the zerg will see a 4 gate push and not overcommit and maybe waste larva on additional drones, to hit the 60 count. Of course this is a gimmicky build and with a good scout the zerg can prepare pretty good and shut down the push all together, especially when the toss is moving out with the 4 gate army. I tried the fast 3rd nexus and it doesn't work very well, not at all actually. The zerg either hits with a 160 supply mass roaches and overwhelms you, or makes 90 drones on 4-5 bases and then it's a hard game to play out. Some good suggestions in this thread though, will try to work on my early 3rd more. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
Here is the build I do pylon gate gas pylon cyber gas zealot pylon gate 2 sentries (2 again when the first two finish) chrono wg expo at around 35 supple or so drop a robo and 2 gates immediately at nat forge when minerals allow obs, then 2 immortals. At this point you push, with around 8stalkers/ 8 sentries/ 2 immortals and +1 Any type of roach pump doesnt' really work due to the fact I have 32 ff availible and 2 immortals I take a third during this and get blink and +1 armour. Continue immortal prodction and throw down 3 or 4 more gates. Thats pretty much the strat I use. It works fairly well. Still working on other timing and things, when I scout certain builds from the zerg. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
Here's a build I've been using with moderate success. - FFE - Defensive SG (Void + 4/5 Phoenix) - 3 Additional Gates (4 total) - Robo (immediately after 3 additional gates) - Warp in Zealot / Sentry and begin producing Immortals - Take Third (with Zealot Sentry) It's been working allright for me but only on maps that have an easily defensible third. I've definitely still been overwhelmed by a shit ton of Roaches on a lot of maps. In this build, I try to take my third as early possible (9-10 mins), and its usually not too hard if I can occupy the Zerg with the Void / Phoenix harass to pick off overlords, deny creep, and slow down additional expansions. The only pressure I really put on is with my Stargate Play. I think it's a safe style of play, but literally everything depends on the following: (i) keeping your SG units alive especially the Void Ray (I've noticed that every game I lose the VR, I always lose) (ii) Scouting constantly to keep an eye on Roach production or Fast Hydra / Muta/ Infestor Ling (iii) CONSTANTLY producing Immortals out of your Robo as soon as the first obs is out (go straight to colossus if Hydra is scouted) The main issue I have here is either dying to mass roach timings on hard to defend thirds, or being unable to scout an aggressive Hydra timing. I really feel that the success of this build really depends on your ability to be as annoying as possible with your Stargate Units, and playing on a favorable map for Sentry / Immortal defenses. Another problem I have with this is that occasionally, Zergs make 5 Spores in their main, and I literally cannot get any scouting information whatsoever, unless I'm willing to lose a bunch of Phoenix just to "hopefully" see a building. I'm considering getting hallucination in this build as well, and possibly only going up to 3 Phoenix as opposed to 4 / 5. Anyway, this is currently what I'm using, and I feel quite safe, though when watching replays, your Stargate Play / Scouting sense is absolutely critical in containing the Zerg, and scouting his next step after going up to 3 bases. I'll edit again if I find a tweak that feels a bit better. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries. So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal). But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals. My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often. | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On March 19 2012 02:05 kcdc wrote: About SG -> fast third builds: The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries. So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal). But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals. My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often. Isn this just invitation for zerg to just make mutas, fast third and robotics from protoss is just so perfect for muta play, I feel like that on certain maps with opening with 4 immortals and lots of sentries just get raped by possible muta tech. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On March 19 2012 02:05 kcdc wrote: About SG -> fast third builds: The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries. So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal). But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals. My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often. The DPS is low, yes, then perhaps go 2 Voids + 3 Phoenix as opposed to 1 Void + 5 Phoenix? There is still some wiggle room. Additionally, I don't get my third denied too easily with this build at all. I usually have 6-7 sentries and 2-3 Zealots by the time I'm taking my third. Any aggression is easy to spot and your Void Ray should never be so far off that an all-in will just run you over. We all have differing experiences regarding build... but I wonder... with this 4 Gate Robo you mention, how in the world would you prevent fast muta tech, and how in the world would you deal with it? | ||
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
On March 19 2012 01:46 QTIP. wrote: I'm having some issues in my PvZ as well. Here's a build I've been using with moderate success. - FFE - Defensive SG (Void + 4/5 Phoenix) - 3 Additional Gates (4 total) - Robo (immediately after 3 additional gates) - Warp in Zealot / Sentry and begin producing Immortals - Take Third (with Zealot Sentry) It's been working allright for me but only on maps that have an easily defensible third. I've definitely still been overwhelmed by a shit ton of Roaches on a lot of maps. In this build, I try to take my third as early possible (9-10 mins), and its usually not too hard if I can occupy the Zerg with the Void / Phoenix harass to pick off overlords, deny creep, and slow down additional expansions. The only pressure I really put on is with my Stargate Play. I think it's a safe style of play, but literally everything depends on the following: (i) keeping your SG units alive especially the Void Ray (I've noticed that every game I lose the VR, I always lose) (ii) Scouting constantly to keep an eye on Roach production or Fast Hydra / Muta/ Infestor Ling (iii) CONSTANTLY producing Immortals out of your Robo as soon as the first obs is out (go straight to colossus if Hydra is scouted) The main issue I have here is either dying to mass roach timings on hard to defend thirds, or being unable to scout an aggressive Hydra timing. I really feel that the success of this build really depends on your ability to be as annoying as possible with your Stargate Units, and playing on a favorable map for Sentry / Immortal defenses. Another problem I have with this is that occasionally, Zergs make 5 Spores in their main, and I literally cannot get any scouting information whatsoever, unless I'm willing to lose a bunch of Phoenix just to "hopefully" see a building. I'm considering getting hallucination in this build as well, and possibly only going up to 3 Phoenix as opposed to 4 / 5. Anyway, this is currently what I'm using, and I feel quite safe, though when watching replays, your Stargate Play / Scouting sense is absolutely critical in containing the Zerg, and scouting his next step after going up to 3 bases. I'll edit again if I find a tweak that feels a bit better. Spoiler from LoneStar + Show Spoiler + Grubby just played that style, and was able to hit an amazing timing before Broods are out with sentry/stalkers/collossus. Not sure how it would have fared if the zerg went for spire/infestation pit/greater spire, rather than what he did (infestation pit/double spire). | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On March 19 2012 02:05 kcdc wrote: About SG -> fast third builds: The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries. So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal). But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals. My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often. Not to mention, since we are talking about Stephano's style here, that he mentioned that stargate after FFE is super easy to stop. He just takes a fourth and all gas, and pumps lings to deny the third. By the time you get it up he's on 4 base and infestors are coming out. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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