[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 20

On March 19 2012 02:05 kcdc wrote:
About SG -> fast third builds:

The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries.

So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal).

But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals.

My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often.

On March 19 2012 04:53 Hossinaut wrote:
Does it need to be patched?
Or does this thread need to happen more?

I feel like this CAN be stopped, we just don't know how yet.

On March 19 2012 04:57 chestnutcc wrote:


Good forcefields.

On March 19 2012 02:05 kcdc wrote:
About SG -> fast third builds:

The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries.

So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal).

But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals.

My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often.

On March 19 2012 05:10 Berailfor wrote:


Not just PERFECT forcefields, also committing to a strategy that is easily avoidable and hard countered by mutas. Which they can build reactionary because mutas come out a bit later anyway. Unless your making tons of immortals, spending all your CB on it, and making a high sentry count you'll die to the roach push, and if they see the early third with a ling and also see your robo (which would be very easy to do as you need to rush the robo for high immortal count) they just go straight to muta and you lose anyway. And even still this fast third, perfect forcefield, fast robo build that can beat it is only viable on very specific maps that your third is more easily defendable while also being able to defend multi pronged attacks.

On March 19 2012 05:11 the p00n wrote:


I've seen void rays being suggested plenty of times and to me this is not enough evidence as to why stargate units are not the answer. He can't attack your void ray, right? If 1 VR isn't enough why not make another one? Unless there is some fail-proof instant-death hydra or muta switch that would surely trample you after having invested in SG units or the zerg being able to swap builds or flat-out counter your SG play off the bat, VRs do shit on roaches.

Also, I watched the replay against Chaoskeeper and you lost that because, IMO, you simply had no idea what you were doing... maybe you were trying something new/random, either way it is a bad example. You're going for an all-in I assume (proxy pylons, no 3rd base, saying at the beginning that P can't take 3rd on that map, ...,) but it hits way too late for a 2-base all-in. In fact, it hit so late that the zerg just aggressively trololols all over your 2base all-in with a 4-base macro-oriented build (before you even attacked). If a macro-oriented build attacks you first while you're doing an all-in you know something is wrong with your build.

That being said I really don't see why you can't go stargate, and I definitely don't see how going stargate 'gets your 3rd denied far too often'? What I'm seeing is units that can't move freely on the map when you have a void ray out and I am unaware of a play that can be made in response to the void ray that immediately makes you lose the game, please aware me if there's like some switch I don't know of because I haven't been active for a while.

On March 19 2012 05:25 KhAmun wrote:


Well when zerg scout robo and sentry, they're probably thinking it's the sentry/immortal 7gate with warp prism, which you need hydras to defend. Unless they're accepting loss to that strategy and ignoring it, they have to prepare a hydralisk den, 4gas and units.
They can't be sure of your strategy until they have physically scouted the third base. If they put down a spire, you should know long before mutas get into your base, as the build includes hallucination.
If you do scout muta, a twilight, mineral cannons, and stalkers from there on out should be enough to hold all your bases (with additional cannons if they're committing to roach/ling/muta agrresion, which should be easily scouted with hallucinations).


You have a fast third base vs a muta build, all you need to do is hold it while teching to storm/archon/ mothership if they're transitioning.

On March 19 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:


Don't quote me on this but I think the problem is getting the stargate and void rays means you have less gas for sentries, they don't provide as much dps as immortals, you'll have to keep them at your base if you want to protect which ideally you wouldn't want to do with a stargate build, and you are much more susceptible to multi pronged attacks then you would be had you just gone for more of a ground based army. Also you would have to pump more voids which probably would mean a hydra attack a few minutes later would be very effective.

On March 19 2012 05:10 Berailfor wrote:


Not just PERFECT forcefields, also committing to a strategy that is easily avoidable and hard countered by mutas. Which they can build reactionary because mutas come out a bit later anyway. Unless your making tons of immortals, spending all your CB on it, and making a high sentry count you'll die to the roach push, and if they see the early third with a ling and also see your robo (which would be very easy to do as you need to rush the robo for high immortal count) they just go straight to muta and you lose anyway. And even still this fast third, perfect forcefield, fast robo build that can beat it is only viable on very specific maps that your third is more easily defendable while also being able to defend multi pronged attacks.

On March 19 2012 05:35 Berailfor wrote:


Well you don't need hydras to beat an immortal sentry gateway allin first of all, if you stop at around 60 drones and just pump ling/roach and engage in midmap, not letting them abuse forcefields on the ramp you can crush the force (as I've seen it done how I'm explaining it.) but beside the point. If you scout the third when it's being put up (as you should) you will know what they are doing and how to react. And still this is relying on element of surprise for the Protoss and the Zerg not properly reacting. The problem isn't that Toss on most levels can't take games. The problem is that when the Zerg plays their cards right, they are unstoppable.

On March 19 2012 05:25 KhAmun wrote:


Well when zerg scout robo and sentry, they're probably thinking it's the sentry/immortal 7gate with warp prism, which you need hydras to defend. Unless they're accepting loss to that strategy and ignoring it, they have to prepare a hydralisk den, 4gas and units.
They can't be sure of your strategy until they have physically scouted the third base. If they put down a spire, you should know long before mutas get into your base, as the build includes hallucination.
If you do scout muta, a twilight, mineral cannons, and stalkers from there on out should be enough to hold all your bases (with additional cannons if they're committing to roach/ling/muta agrresion, which should be easily scouted with hallucinations).


You have a fast third base vs a muta build, all you need to do is hold it while teching to storm/archon/ mothership if they're transitioning.

On March 19 2012 06:03 Berailfor wrote:
@Khamun

Because they don't need to react the an allin coming because your third timing is SCOUTED. Which comes up before your gateways for an immortal/sentry allin would be finished. And you won't have a three base economy when the pressure of the roaches hit. Still your suggesting the the Zerg is bad enough not to be able to see your third timing. And no you do not need hydras to defend an immortal sentry allin. It helps with their range and good dps, but it is not needed at all. You can completely stop it with roach/ling in an open area and stopping drones at a proper time. And still like I've stated before. This sort of fast third, fast robo expand is only viable on maps where you aren't very susceptible to multi-pronged attacks and have a very accessible third. Which isn't very many maps. There is a reason stephano stated that his opening counters all Protoss builds.

On March 19 2012 06:05 hzflank wrote:
I agree with you on the whole (nice to have a zerg point of view), but I want to add that I have seen Stephano stomp all over the 7 gate immortal prism build using nothing but roaches. It may just be due to bad protoss micro, but Stephano just puts his roaches into multiple groups, gets one group into range of the sentries and shift attacks on them. Once the sentries go down then future waves of roaches will clean everything up. I dont know if he could do that against a gsl level protoss though (as opposed to EU pros).