EPTOr does this thread need to happen more?
I feel like this CAN be stopped, we just don't know how yet.
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 20
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
Or does this thread need to happen more? I feel like this CAN be stopped, we just don't know how yet. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On March 19 2012 02:05 kcdc wrote: About SG -> fast third builds: The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries. So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal). But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals. My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often. This is pretty much what I was saying in the Brown vs Losira thread, and most of the people disagreeing with that sentiment used to keep pointing out that it helped you get the third up while missing the point that it didn't help it stay up. Stargate requires a good level of commitment. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On March 19 2012 04:53 Hossinaut wrote: Does it need to be patched? Or does this thread need to happen more? I feel like this CAN be stopped, we just don't know how yet. Good forcefields. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
Not just PERFECT forcefields, also committing to a strategy that is easily avoidable and hard countered by mutas. Which they can build reactionary because mutas come out a bit later anyway. Unless your making tons of immortals, spending all your CB on it, and making a high sentry count you'll die to the roach push, and if they see the early third with a ling and also see your robo (which would be very easy to do as you need to rush the robo for high immortal count) they just go straight to muta and you lose anyway. And even still this fast third, perfect forcefield, fast robo build that can beat it is only viable on very specific maps that your third is more easily defendable while also being able to defend multi pronged attacks. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On March 19 2012 02:05 kcdc wrote: About SG -> fast third builds: The SG units serve to disrupt Z's timings slightly, but a SG+void+5 phoenix costs 1150/800, and for that investment, you get very little DPS against roaches. For the same cost, you could have 4 immortals and 4 sentries. So as hard as it is to defend a mass speed roach timing with committed gateway+immortals, your ground army is going to have 4 fewer immortals and 4 fewer sentries if you go SG. Killing some overlords, forcing spores, and lifting roaches are all positives, and the void provides a little DPS (tho not nearly as much as an immortal). But for purposes of defending the 12 minute timing, I think it's pretty clear that you'll be much better off with the 4 extra immortals. My experience with the single SG build is that you wind up having your third denied far too often. I've seen void rays being suggested plenty of times and to me this is not enough evidence as to why stargate units are not the answer. He can't attack your void ray, right? If 1 VR isn't enough why not make another one? Unless there is some fail-proof instant-death hydra or muta switch that would surely trample you after having invested in SG units or the zerg being able to swap builds or flat-out counter your SG play off the bat, VRs do shit on roaches. Also, I watched the replay against Chaoskeeper and you lost that because, IMO, you simply had no idea what you were doing... maybe you were trying something new/random, either way it is a bad example. You're going for an all-in I assume (proxy pylons, no 3rd base, saying at the beginning that P can't take 3rd on that map, ...,) but it hits way too late for a 2-base all-in. In fact, it hit so late that the zerg just aggressively trololols all over your 2base all-in with a 4-base macro-oriented build (before you even attacked). If a macro-oriented build attacks you first while you're doing an all-in you know something is wrong with your build. That being said I really don't see why you can't go stargate, and I definitely don't see how going stargate 'gets your 3rd denied far too often'? What I'm seeing is units that can't move freely on the map when you have a void ray out and I am unaware of a play that can be made in response to the void ray that immediately makes you lose the game, please aware me if there's like some switch I don't know of because I haven't been active for a while. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:10 Berailfor wrote: Not just PERFECT forcefields, also committing to a strategy that is easily avoidable and hard countered by mutas. Which they can build reactionary because mutas come out a bit later anyway. Unless your making tons of immortals, spending all your CB on it, and making a high sentry count you'll die to the roach push, and if they see the early third with a ling and also see your robo (which would be very easy to do as you need to rush the robo for high immortal count) they just go straight to muta and you lose anyway. And even still this fast third, perfect forcefield, fast robo build that can beat it is only viable on very specific maps that your third is more easily defendable while also being able to defend multi pronged attacks. Well when zerg scout robo and sentry, they're probably thinking it's the sentry/immortal 7gate with warp prism, which you need hydras to defend. Unless they're accepting loss to that strategy and ignoring it, they have to prepare a hydralisk den, 4gas and units. They can't be sure of your strategy until they have physically scouted the third base. If they put down a spire, you should know long before mutas get into your base, as the build includes hallucination. If you do scout muta, a twilight, mineral cannons, and stalkers from there on out should be enough to hold all your bases (with additional cannons if they're committing to roach/ling/muta agrresion, which should be easily scouted with hallucinations). You have a fast third base vs a muta build, all you need to do is hold it while teching to storm/archon/ mothership if they're transitioning. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:11 the p00n wrote: I've seen void rays being suggested plenty of times and to me this is not enough evidence as to why stargate units are not the answer. He can't attack your void ray, right? If 1 VR isn't enough why not make another one? Unless there is some fail-proof instant-death hydra or muta switch that would surely trample you after having invested in SG units or the zerg being able to swap builds or flat-out counter your SG play off the bat, VRs do shit on roaches. Also, I watched the replay against Chaoskeeper and you lost that because, IMO, you simply had no idea what you were doing... maybe you were trying something new/random, either way it is a bad example. You're going for an all-in I assume (proxy pylons, no 3rd base, saying at the beginning that P can't take 3rd on that map, ...,) but it hits way too late for a 2-base all-in. In fact, it hit so late that the zerg just aggressively trololols all over your 2base all-in with a 4-base macro-oriented build (before you even attacked). If a macro-oriented build attacks you first while you're doing an all-in you know something is wrong with your build. That being said I really don't see why you can't go stargate, and I definitely don't see how going stargate 'gets your 3rd denied far too often'? What I'm seeing is units that can't move freely on the map when you have a void ray out and I am unaware of a play that can be made in response to the void ray that immediately makes you lose the game, please aware me if there's like some switch I don't know of because I haven't been active for a while. Don't quote me on this but I think the problem is getting the stargate and void rays means you have less gas for sentries, they don't provide as much dps as immortals, you'll have to keep them at your base if you want to protect which ideally you wouldn't want to do with a stargate build, and you are much more susceptible to multi pronged attacks then you would be had you just gone for more of a ground based army. Also you would have to pump more voids which probably would mean a hydra attack a few minutes later would be very effective. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:25 KhAmun wrote: Well when zerg scout robo and sentry, they're probably thinking it's the sentry/immortal 7gate with warp prism, which you need hydras to defend. Unless they're accepting loss to that strategy and ignoring it, they have to prepare a hydralisk den, 4gas and units. They can't be sure of your strategy until they have physically scouted the third base. If they put down a spire, you should know long before mutas get into your base, as the build includes hallucination. If you do scout muta, a twilight, mineral cannons, and stalkers from there on out should be enough to hold all your bases (with additional cannons if they're committing to roach/ling/muta agrresion, which should be easily scouted with hallucinations). You have a fast third base vs a muta build, all you need to do is hold it while teching to storm/archon/ mothership if they're transitioning. Well you don't need hydras to beat an immortal sentry gateway allin first of all, if you stop at around 60 drones and just pump ling/roach and engage in midmap, not letting them abuse forcefields on the ramp you can crush the force (as I've seen it done how I'm explaining it.) but beside the point. If you scout the third when it's being put up (as you should) you will know what they are doing and how to react. And still this is relying on element of surprise for the Protoss and the Zerg not properly reacting. The problem isn't that Toss on most levels can't take games. The problem is that when the Zerg plays their cards right, they are unstoppable. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote: Don't quote me on this but I think the problem is getting the stargate and void rays means you have less gas for sentries, they don't provide as much dps as immortals, you'll have to keep them at your base if you want to protect which ideally you wouldn't want to do with a stargate build, and you are much more susceptible to multi pronged attacks then you would be had you just gone for more of a ground based army. Also you would have to pump more voids which probably would mean a hydra attack a few minutes later would be very effective. I haven't played for about 4 months, but I rarely lost to zerg just by gateway expanding (something which kcdc is allergic to it seems, in all his threads over the past year actually there is a strong aversion against gateway expanding) into void ray into mothership/archon. I have a big (albeit old) topic about the build, won't plug it in this topic but you can search 'huargh's mothership build' and it should pop up. The void ray WILL defend you against roach-centric armies, you don't have to go nuts and make 50 phoenixes and 20 voids. One, at most two, is enough. Opening stargate also allows you to deal with mutalisks (although reactionary phoenix production is generally a bad thing and I would not recommend building phoenixes if your opponent already has mutas on the field, if you see the spire going up while your stargate is already finished you'll be in great shape). | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:10 Berailfor wrote: Not just PERFECT forcefields, also committing to a strategy that is easily avoidable and hard countered by mutas. Which they can build reactionary because mutas come out a bit later anyway. Unless your making tons of immortals, spending all your CB on it, and making a high sentry count you'll die to the roach push, and if they see the early third with a ling and also see your robo (which would be very easy to do as you need to rush the robo for high immortal count) they just go straight to muta and you lose anyway. And even still this fast third, perfect forcefield, fast robo build that can beat it is only viable on very specific maps that your third is more easily defendable while also being able to defend multi pronged attacks. Its been mentioned before how this is not hard countered by mutas. Only 2 base muta hits a time when you have no stalkers with the robo/stargate macro build. A 3 base switch (the lack of roaches will be scouted at around the 9-10 minute mark) will come at the same time as blink, +2 and a storm transition. This is not dissimilar to a stim or medvac timing from terran. Good ff will keep you alive, with a lead, or else its gg. (granted a lot more ff due to the supply discrepancy) | ||
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Daveren
United States2 Posts
It's a lot of WP Harrass with a deadly archon/immortal/stalker/sentry timing push. I haven't faced stephano's build, but it seems like CvZ is a great counter to it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274243 There's a more updated version on HotKeyIt if you want to check it out | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:35 Berailfor wrote: Well you don't need hydras to beat an immortal sentry gateway allin first of all, if you stop at around 60 drones and just pump ling/roach and engage in midmap, not letting them abuse forcefields on the ramp you can crush the force (as I've seen it done how I'm explaining it.) but beside the point. If you scout the third when it's being put up (as you should) you will know what they are doing and how to react. And still this is relying on element of surprise for the Protoss and the Zerg not properly reacting. The problem isn't that Toss on most levels can't take games. The problem is that when the Zerg plays their cards right, they are unstoppable. First of all yes, you do need hydras if you want a salvageable drone count, 60 drones and roach ling is not enough to stop that allin properly executed. engaging in the middle of the map is good and all if you've been making units for the last 3 minutes, but not if you drone above 55, as you simply won't have enough units. I disagree with your second point completely, IF the zerg is respecting the immortal/sentry/gateway allin, he will not be in a position to just run away with the game. (sometimes it will inevitably feel like that because the zerg either didn't respect or recognize the threat of the allin, in which case he's flipping a coin or just sort of bad.) You have three base economy, meaning you can get pretty much whatever unit composition you please, and with diligent scouting with hallucination you should know exactly what that unit composition is. 3+ base, a protoss knowing which unit comp the zerg is going for should always been in a pretty good position, just because of cost efficiency reasons. How is that relying on the element of surprise or improper reaction? EDIT: Lone Star Clash spoiler+ Show Spoiler + Grubby just beat Violet using a stargate->robo build, with sentries. He used void +4 phoenix for map control, and took his third off of sentry/2immortal/ couple zealots and stalkers. Violet tried to break it with roach ling, making a spire behind it, but grubby held with good (and slightly late) FF's. Violet got up a scary muta ball, but grubby had blink started by the time his thrid base finished, allowing him to deflect them with 4phoenix/`7-10 stalkers and cannons. Violet poured on the agression attacking 3 pointts with roach/ling/muta, but grubby held despite being out of position and late reactions, eventually taking the game. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
Because they don't need to react the an allin coming because your third timing is SCOUTED. Which comes up before your gateways for an immortal/sentry allin would be finished. And you won't have a three base economy when the pressure of the roaches hit. Still your suggesting the the Zerg is bad enough not to be able to see your third timing. And no you do not need hydras to defend an immortal sentry allin. It helps with their range and good dps, but it is not needed at all. You can completely stop it with roach/ling in an open area and stopping drones at a proper time. And still like I've stated before. This sort of fast third, fast robo expand is only viable on maps where you aren't very susceptible to multi-pronged attacks and have a very accessible third. Which isn't very many maps. There is a reason stephano stated that his opening counters all Protoss builds. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:25 KhAmun wrote: Well when zerg scout robo and sentry, they're probably thinking it's the sentry/immortal 7gate with warp prism, which you need hydras to defend. Unless they're accepting loss to that strategy and ignoring it, they have to prepare a hydralisk den, 4gas and units. They can't be sure of your strategy until they have physically scouted the third base. If they put down a spire, you should know long before mutas get into your base, as the build includes hallucination. If you do scout muta, a twilight, mineral cannons, and stalkers from there on out should be enough to hold all your bases (with additional cannons if they're committing to roach/ling/muta agrresion, which should be easily scouted with hallucinations). You have a fast third base vs a muta build, all you need to do is hold it while teching to storm/archon/ mothership if they're transitioning. I agree with you on the whole (nice to have a zerg point of view), but I want to add that I have seen Stephano stomp all over the 7 gate immortal prism build using nothing but roaches. It may just be due to bad protoss micro, but Stephano just puts his roaches into multiple groups, gets one group into range of the sentries and shift attacks on them. Once the sentries go down then future waves of roaches will clean everything up. I dont know if he could do that against a gsl level protoss though (as opposed to EU pros). | ||
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Gianttt
Netherlands194 Posts
You will have to practice splitting your armies efficiently, and being able to micro and use the units abilities such as forcefields, guardianshield, blink and so on, very well. Scouting is still the most important think which may lack during the game, also causing the lose. You have to count drones, units, what builds they have and might do. In the game were Elfi get his third sniped, I believed he could have dropped gateways/cannons to prefend that from happening. He also had too immortals, and should have teched to colossus earlier. You can use the Colossus behind the gateways for damage, and use forcefields without your sentries getting sniped because of the building placement, keeping your expensive units alive. At this moment keep getting better, and since this week I became top master, sometimes still dropping between 8-13 a bit and I don't feel like this build is overpowered. Even losing your third, you can rebuild it and tech further to the lategame. Getting as Protoss in the lategame with the right upgrades/units is very strong, and is very hard to deal with as a zerg in my opinion (a Protoss opinion, don't know how Zergs feel about that). Also about Gateway or Forge expanding, I suggest going Forge expand, because you don't have to pressure that early, but have to keep up with workers and delay him from expanding. There is a point were he has more food because of more workers, but that isn't a big deal. You have to do harassment and try and keep up with units/upgrades/expands and you are fine. Don't overreact, but keep playing passively, instead of feeling you have to play (semi)allin. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
Use blink well? Split armies? Count specific amount of drones? None of those are viable. Blink won't be ready in time. You can't split your army and expect to defend your third unless you know exact army position with halluc (which you already have spent a couple hallucinations on scouting their base) and that would cause a lot less forcefields, which forcefields is the only reason this build doesn't completely destroy you, while if you split your army the only reason why you would is to constantly forcefield 1 ramp while defending the other area being pressured. Which isn't viable on like daybreak once they kill the rocks, and count specific amount of drones? Cmon be realistic. Besides seeing their actual army with scouting is way more of a tell then trying to scout their drone count and discerning what their army size is. | ||
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ProxySilmaril
81 Posts
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 19 2012 06:03 Berailfor wrote: @Khamun Because they don't need to react the an allin coming because your third timing is SCOUTED. Which comes up before your gateways for an immortal/sentry allin would be finished. And you won't have a three base economy when the pressure of the roaches hit. Still your suggesting the the Zerg is bad enough not to be able to see your third timing. And no you do not need hydras to defend an immortal sentry allin. It helps with their range and good dps, but it is not needed at all. You can completely stop it with roach/ling in an open area and stopping drones at a proper time. And still like I've stated before. This sort of fast third, fast robo expand is only viable on maps where you aren't very susceptible to multi-pronged attacks and have a very accessible third. Which isn't very many maps. There is a reason stephano stated that his opening counters all Protoss builds. Yes, once they see that the third timing is scouted, they know it isn't an allin, that doesnt mean that they don't have to respect the fact that it could be an allin, which means they can't go up to 75 drones and 4 hatcheries before unit production. I'm not at all suggesting your third timing isn't scouted, I'm suggest that until it is scouted they can't spam drones, leaving you in an even, if not ahead position if you hold the three bases, which shouldn't be a problem with the build outlined. Let's look at the maps: Cloud Kingdom- ramp at the third, sim city +cannons. single forcefield natural ramp, and cliff to blink up into main. Seems pretty holdable. Korhal Compound: choke at third, pretty large distance between main and third, but with blink and extra cannons it should be holdable vs mutas. Antiga Shipyard: easily defendbale third from the ground, once blink is available, the cliff becomes really really short distance to defend main from muta. Entombed valley: Dont think I need to talk about why it's easy to hold a third here. Metal: admittedly difficult. Shakuras: single viable attack angle from to the third, blink makes the distance to main and third very very short. Tal Darim: Well almost no zerg plays no gas 3hatch on this map, so it isn't really relevant to this discussion. Shattered: Same as Tal Darim. All in all doesn't seem like a map pool with too difficult to hold thirds to me, given you know what is coming. On March 19 2012 06:05 hzflank wrote: I agree with you on the whole (nice to have a zerg point of view), but I want to add that I have seen Stephano stomp all over the 7 gate immortal prism build using nothing but roaches. It may just be due to bad protoss micro, but Stephano just puts his roaches into multiple groups, gets one group into range of the sentries and shift attacks on them. Once the sentries go down then future waves of roaches will clean everything up. I dont know if he could do that against a gsl level protoss though (as opposed to EU pros). Well with good forcefields, an immortal count of like 4, and stalkers/zealots off of 7 gateways, holding it with pure roach seems to be completely up to the protoss and their good/bad micro/ff placement, and I've seen on stream players (namely IdrA) say that the proper way to defend that allin without relying on the protoss messing up is with range hydras, and personally it's the only success I've found with holding them. | ||
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