|
Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 19 2012 09:10 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:07 chestnutcc wrote:On March 19 2012 08:56 kcdc wrote:On March 19 2012 08:41 Trusty wrote:
The issue with VR is that they can't kill roaches that are moving haha..... they eventually get out of range.
For the longest time (and still do) i open FFE -> 1SG +1 zealot on Metal.
After the harass, I sit the 2 voidrays down each of the "lanes" (where watch towers are), to spot for stuff. Worst 2 worst I get surprised by mutas - but I only lose one VR.
I am a terrible player (only mid/high master) - and I often lose one of my VR's during the zealot/VR harass, so I often build 3 VR's anyway.
The VR's act as a deterrant to roaches - solely by the prescene that "hey if you attack, you're gonna lose your roaches eventually, so you better make it a big push". Obviously this doesn't apply to Stephano-style, as he's like "kill you anyway".
400 gas on SG units (2x VR, 1 Phoenix) -> whatever.
I think if you go up to 4 phoenix, and are awesome with your scouting, you can delay the TC/+2 weapons untill you're safe.
I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build.
I would love to see Genius sit down and do his 1SG phoenix fast 3rd, against Stephano in a Bo11 or similar. Purely to analyze the games, offering no prize XDXD
Good post. This is precisely what I was saying in the Brown Losira thread, and kcdc told me to shift click roaches -.-. Meanwhile at the lonestar clash, we see grubby winning vs Violet and losing vs sleep with the build mentioned in the OP. Hmm I think KCDC was referring to my bit about Skill vs Build wins, not so much the description of my early -> mid game.
Its just my contention that whatever tech path you choose requires some degree of commitment before you can macro out of it. Terrans will open hellions and the factory naturally transitions into tank production. The stargate lies idle till hive tech comes out. You can't expect to take a third off light air pressure, since your ground army will be proportionally weaker, it requires a fair bit of investment (notice the Genius build with 1-2 void rays and 5-6 phoenix). In the brown losira thread, the OP's contention was that you only needed a single void ray to take a third, which is what you said does not work for you. Also there are simple tricks like splitting roaches that can buy the 1 minute window required for speed to complete and then its romero's roaches.
|
On March 19 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:
I just realized that Zerg has a good reason to go double roach warren to research speed and burrow move at the same time. Would a 12 minute attack with both speed and burrow move be possible to defend?
....
I'm gonna start practicing my Zerg play....
I've been away for a few days, but why did we decide Titan's build is bad? I saw something about White Ra losing to ling runbys during a roach allin and GGing after - and I know that on some maps the simcity may have to be figured out - but why is it that we're still discussing what infrastructure we need to build rather than how to use the infrastructure we've seen work (or alter it *slightly*) to make thirds more defensible? I understand immortals aren't stalkers, but they aren't carrier speed either - they can get from place to place in reasonable amounts of time.
And regarding hitting max at 11 minutes instead of 12 - rewatch the titan rep. Stephano would have maxxed pre-12 minutes if he hadn't lost some roaches in an earlier engagement. Is Titan doing something new now or something? And has anyone asked him why? This build seemed so good - and so new to the community (or to me anyway).
|
On March 19 2012 09:16 kcdc wrote:
Shift clicking voids kill slow roaches, but it doesn't work against speed roaches. Slow roaches can be abused with a number of openings--that's why P gets a window to macro freely up till 10 or 11 minutes when roach speed finishes. Then Z brings the pain.
Split the targeted roach away from the group. Rinse and repeat. The roach ball will inch away. In that thread you mentioned doing it while executing the +1 void zealot pressure, in which case roaches cannot run away because of the zealots. But this is not pertinent to this thread. What may be is the genius build, in fact the first game of the gsl finals, genius holds of this exact push from DRG with simcity, ff and his air and keeps his third.
|
Here's my 2 cents on the matchup
From my own experience (High master), there are only two viable builds that can bring you into a semi-successful lategame/macro game, i'll go into why i call it "semi-successful" later on.
The first build, is the sentry/immortal expand that was talked about earlier. FFE into 1gate robo, add 4 gates and expand. Scout with hallucination focusing on muta-switch and attack-timings, then venture into what you consider a lategame army composition should look like based on what you see (normally blinkstalker/collosi/mothership)
The second build is Stargate play, open up with the VR, add the 3-4 phoenixes, add 4 gates, try to do maximum amount of damage , send VR home, take third with VR/sentry/stalker.
Both these builds have their advantages in my opinion. I generally do the sentry/immortal expand on maps with chokes/easily accessible thirds (Cloud kingdom / antiga shipyard) and the stargate play on maps that zergs tend to Mutalisk on.
The sentry/immortal expand i've both held, and not held the initial roachpressure that hits when he realises i have a third, and i honestly cannot say yet if that's my misstakes, or if it's his misstakes, or any kind of combination. It requires more testing, which is really hard when pro protosses seem to have decided that 2base "guess my all-in" is the only thing you do vs zergs nowdays. It's been a long time since i saw a proper macro game vs a zerg on the really high level.
The reason why i'm calling these semi-successful, is because the attacks from zergs hit hard, really really hard. Especially from zergs that seem to have no interest in taking a forth, but just plow and plow roach/ling towards you. I think that if both players execute the strategy flawlessly, it's a slim defence at best. If the zerg however isn't able to push through, he's still hasn't lost the game (think botched blinkstalker all-in, botched immortal push, etc), in many cases, he isn't even behind but can still carry on a successful macro game from there. Since you normally fight at your nexus (Because i really consider this impossible to hold without at least 3-4 cannons) , you are sure to take probelosses even if you win. and your sentry force will be diminished.
Also, using these builds, i've struggled a lot vs the ling/baneling play. The heavy heavy sentry composition seems so weak against the good olé baneling drops that i'm unsure if i dare do it (since by the time i decide to do this build, i do not really have the scouting possibility of seeing hwat the zerg is actually going for (with sentry/immortal)
Also, a fun thing.. stephano, on the latest episode of SotG said that protoss needs a buff vs zerg.. fun note
|
On March 19 2012 09:42 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:04 KhAmun wrote:On March 19 2012 08:15 kcdc wrote:On March 19 2012 05:50 KhAmun wrote:First of all yes, you do need hydras if you want a salvageable drone count, 60 drones and roach ling is not enough to stop that allin properly executed. engaging in the middle of the map is good and all if you've been making units for the last 3 minutes, but not if you drone above 55, as you simply won't have enough units. I disagree with your second point completely, IF the zerg is respecting the immortal/sentry/gateway allin, he will not be in a position to just run away with the game. (sometimes it will inevitably feel like that because the zerg either didn't respect or recognize the threat of the allin, in which case he's flipping a coin or just sort of bad.) You have three base economy, meaning you can get pretty much whatever unit composition you please, and with diligent scouting with hallucination you should know exactly what that unit composition is. 3+ base, a protoss knowing which unit comp the zerg is going for should always been in a pretty good position, just because of cost efficiency reasons. How is that relying on the element of surprise or improper reaction? EDIT: Lone Star Clash spoiler + Show Spoiler +Grubby just beat Violet using a stargate->robo build, with sentries. He used void +4 phoenix for map control, and took his third off of sentry/2immortal/ couple zealots and stalkers. Violet tried to break it with roach ling, making a spire behind it, but grubby held with good (and slightly late) FF's. Violet got up a scary muta ball, but grubby had blink started by the time his thrid base finished, allowing him to deflect them with 4phoenix/`7-10 stalkers and cannons. Violet poured on the agression attacking 3 pointts with roach/ling/muta, but grubby held despite being out of position and late reactions, eventually taking the game. (1) You don't need hydras to defend immortal/sentry if you engage in an open area, preferably on their side of the map giving you time to reinforce, but yes, hydras help. And you can get 60 drones before pumping army. 60 is the max tho. (2) Z's response to immortal/sentry all-in is the same as immortal/sentry expand: cut drones after 60 to produce a crap ton of roach-ling and attack. P isn't gaining anything from a metagame fake-out here. It may be a safe third--it hasn't been tested enough--but if it is, it's not because the opening forces Z to get hydras. (3) Good for Grubby. I'll check out the VOD when I get a chance. Hmm well I it just seems extremely difficult to have enough units to engage in a favorable position with roach/ling, as the protoss army should only be in the open when he's in transit, and having enough roach/ling to take that on during transit/that early would mean a massive drone cut, though I acknowledge that they will have less units as well and forcing ff usage is a pretty big deal. I could be wrong but the way it seems to me is: If they respect the possibility of the allin, they either: Prepare hydra den, or spam low eco roach/ling. If they prepare hydra, they won't be attacking. If they go roach/ling and attack, that's what the build is designed to defend. So either way the build accomplishes it's purpose. This is assuming the build is effective of course, which we need more high level games to go off of. Well I'm not saying it's a metagame fake-out, I'm just saying the zerg is forced to respect the possibility, and can't go up to 75 drones and 4 or 5 hatcheries without worry. Why is Z response the same? If the distinction could be easily made early on, it wouldn't be better to take a fourth, macro hatch, and complete saturation + tech? This seems like a better option than trying to break a third with roach/ling against a build that is theoretically designed to stop it. I mean this is all under assumption that the build is effective at defending a third vs roach ling, as I have been addressing some of the other issues people have been theorizing could come about with the build, aside from the 12 minute roach push. Stephano's build is just drone to 60 and pump roach/ling. He doesn't drone to 75 without doing extreme pressure first. And so to answer your question no it wouldn't be better to sit back and drone and take a fourth and more geysers. Or rather it could be, but that's not how Stephano roflstomp's toss every game. He does by putting massive pressure on after droning to 60. Or just droning to 60 and holding off whatever allin with roach/ling. Because like he said that counters "all Protoss builds" aside from like a double stargate which obviously doesn't apply here as that's a completely different allin which I'm sure he is confident in being able to hold.
That's what's being a addressed in the thread, but quit generalizing what he does every game, because he doesn't do it every game, I have every replay pack that features stephano.
That aside, I'm not sure you understood the post, because I certainly wasn't asking you a question.
I'm saying:
IF the distinction could be easily made between an immortal allin and a defensive immortal/sentry, it would be better to just go up to 75 drones 4 bases and a macro hatchery rather than attack into a defensive immortal/sentry with roach ling.
And your response to this?
no it wouldn't be better to sit back and drone and take a fourth and more geysers. Or rather it could be, but that's not how Stephano roflstomp's toss every game.
...
Wait really? Do the exact build the protoss build is meant to counter?
My point is the fact that the distinction cannot be easily made, therefor a zerg should be preparing some sort of defense in case of the attack:
So it's either cut drones at 60 and go pure roach/ling, or prepare hydralisk defense.
In either scenario, the protoss build accomplishes it's purpose: securing a well timed third base, while being safe against roach ling aggression.
This is if the build is safe vs roach ling, which we're still waiting on higher level testing.
|
The style stephano is doing kind of reminds me of the 5 hatch hydra build in BW. Any pressure that P could throw out Z was null in void, and Protoss could barely contend with the massive hydra numbers. Obviously we are talking different games here, but I am curious what parallels. we can find with these two situations.
|
On March 19 2012 09:58 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:42 Berailfor wrote:On March 19 2012 09:04 KhAmun wrote:On March 19 2012 08:15 kcdc wrote:On March 19 2012 05:50 KhAmun wrote:First of all yes, you do need hydras if you want a salvageable drone count, 60 drones and roach ling is not enough to stop that allin properly executed. engaging in the middle of the map is good and all if you've been making units for the last 3 minutes, but not if you drone above 55, as you simply won't have enough units. I disagree with your second point completely, IF the zerg is respecting the immortal/sentry/gateway allin, he will not be in a position to just run away with the game. (sometimes it will inevitably feel like that because the zerg either didn't respect or recognize the threat of the allin, in which case he's flipping a coin or just sort of bad.) You have three base economy, meaning you can get pretty much whatever unit composition you please, and with diligent scouting with hallucination you should know exactly what that unit composition is. 3+ base, a protoss knowing which unit comp the zerg is going for should always been in a pretty good position, just because of cost efficiency reasons. How is that relying on the element of surprise or improper reaction? EDIT: Lone Star Clash spoiler + Show Spoiler +Grubby just beat Violet using a stargate->robo build, with sentries. He used void +4 phoenix for map control, and took his third off of sentry/2immortal/ couple zealots and stalkers. Violet tried to break it with roach ling, making a spire behind it, but grubby held with good (and slightly late) FF's. Violet got up a scary muta ball, but grubby had blink started by the time his thrid base finished, allowing him to deflect them with 4phoenix/`7-10 stalkers and cannons. Violet poured on the agression attacking 3 pointts with roach/ling/muta, but grubby held despite being out of position and late reactions, eventually taking the game. (1) You don't need hydras to defend immortal/sentry if you engage in an open area, preferably on their side of the map giving you time to reinforce, but yes, hydras help. And you can get 60 drones before pumping army. 60 is the max tho. (2) Z's response to immortal/sentry all-in is the same as immortal/sentry expand: cut drones after 60 to produce a crap ton of roach-ling and attack. P isn't gaining anything from a metagame fake-out here. It may be a safe third--it hasn't been tested enough--but if it is, it's not because the opening forces Z to get hydras. (3) Good for Grubby. I'll check out the VOD when I get a chance. Hmm well I it just seems extremely difficult to have enough units to engage in a favorable position with roach/ling, as the protoss army should only be in the open when he's in transit, and having enough roach/ling to take that on during transit/that early would mean a massive drone cut, though I acknowledge that they will have less units as well and forcing ff usage is a pretty big deal. I could be wrong but the way it seems to me is: If they respect the possibility of the allin, they either: Prepare hydra den, or spam low eco roach/ling. If they prepare hydra, they won't be attacking. If they go roach/ling and attack, that's what the build is designed to defend. So either way the build accomplishes it's purpose. This is assuming the build is effective of course, which we need more high level games to go off of. Well I'm not saying it's a metagame fake-out, I'm just saying the zerg is forced to respect the possibility, and can't go up to 75 drones and 4 or 5 hatcheries without worry. Why is Z response the same? If the distinction could be easily made early on, it wouldn't be better to take a fourth, macro hatch, and complete saturation + tech? This seems like a better option than trying to break a third with roach/ling against a build that is theoretically designed to stop it. I mean this is all under assumption that the build is effective at defending a third vs roach ling, as I have been addressing some of the other issues people have been theorizing could come about with the build, aside from the 12 minute roach push. Stephano's build is just drone to 60 and pump roach/ling. He doesn't drone to 75 without doing extreme pressure first. And so to answer your question no it wouldn't be better to sit back and drone and take a fourth and more geysers. Or rather it could be, but that's not how Stephano roflstomp's toss every game. He does by putting massive pressure on after droning to 60. Or just droning to 60 and holding off whatever allin with roach/ling. Because like he said that counters "all Protoss builds" aside from like a double stargate which obviously doesn't apply here as that's a completely different allin which I'm sure he is confident in being able to hold. That's what's being a addressed in the thread, but quit generalizing what he does every game, because he doesn't do it every game, I have every replay pack that features stephano. That aside, I'm not sure you understood the post, because I certainly wasn't asking you a question. I'm saying: IF the distinction could be easily made between an immortal allin and a defensive immortal/sentry, it would be better to just go up to 75 drones 4 bases and a macro hatchery rather than attack into a defensive immortal/sentry with roach ling. And your response to this? Show nested quote + no it wouldn't be better to sit back and drone and take a fourth and more geysers. Or rather it could be, but that's not how Stephano roflstomp's toss every game. ... Wait really? Do the exact build the protoss build is meant to counter? My point is the fact that the distinction cannot be easily made, therefor a zerg should be preparing some sort of defense in case of the attack: So it's either cut drones at 60 and go pure roach/ling, or prepare hydralisk defense. In either scenario, the protoss build accomplishes it's purpose: securing a well timed third base, while being safe against roach ling aggression. This is if the build is safe vs roach ling, which we're still waiting on higher level testing.
There already has been higher level testing. And we talked about that earlier. With perfect perfect forcefields you MIGHT barally hold. The Protoss build isn't meant to counter that build. It's meant to SURVIVE it. And it's extremely difficult. And still questionable on whether or not it's even possible based on the fact that people who've done this sort of build to hold it still lose some games and other games they successfully hold it off just for the Zerg to not even be behind after the failed extreme aggression. Which IMO should be an allin but isn't just because how the Zerg macro mechanics work. And with multipronged attacking it's still incredibly hard to live. One fucked up forcefield and it's over. Meanwhile the Zerg gets to do nothing except drone to 60 and then pump units and A move. Sounds legit.
Edit: and why do you keep talking about hydralisks. It's already be clarified that at no point does Stephano make hydras to deal with a potential immortal gateway push. In fact, it's been clarified that he does the exact same build for defending the allin as he would for pressuring the Protoss's third.
|
On March 19 2012 10:05 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:58 KhAmun wrote:On March 19 2012 09:42 Berailfor wrote:On March 19 2012 09:04 KhAmun wrote:On March 19 2012 08:15 kcdc wrote:On March 19 2012 05:50 KhAmun wrote:First of all yes, you do need hydras if you want a salvageable drone count, 60 drones and roach ling is not enough to stop that allin properly executed. engaging in the middle of the map is good and all if you've been making units for the last 3 minutes, but not if you drone above 55, as you simply won't have enough units. I disagree with your second point completely, IF the zerg is respecting the immortal/sentry/gateway allin, he will not be in a position to just run away with the game. (sometimes it will inevitably feel like that because the zerg either didn't respect or recognize the threat of the allin, in which case he's flipping a coin or just sort of bad.) You have three base economy, meaning you can get pretty much whatever unit composition you please, and with diligent scouting with hallucination you should know exactly what that unit composition is. 3+ base, a protoss knowing which unit comp the zerg is going for should always been in a pretty good position, just because of cost efficiency reasons. How is that relying on the element of surprise or improper reaction? EDIT: Lone Star Clash spoiler + Show Spoiler +Grubby just beat Violet using a stargate->robo build, with sentries. He used void +4 phoenix for map control, and took his third off of sentry/2immortal/ couple zealots and stalkers. Violet tried to break it with roach ling, making a spire behind it, but grubby held with good (and slightly late) FF's. Violet got up a scary muta ball, but grubby had blink started by the time his thrid base finished, allowing him to deflect them with 4phoenix/`7-10 stalkers and cannons. Violet poured on the agression attacking 3 pointts with roach/ling/muta, but grubby held despite being out of position and late reactions, eventually taking the game. (1) You don't need hydras to defend immortal/sentry if you engage in an open area, preferably on their side of the map giving you time to reinforce, but yes, hydras help. And you can get 60 drones before pumping army. 60 is the max tho. (2) Z's response to immortal/sentry all-in is the same as immortal/sentry expand: cut drones after 60 to produce a crap ton of roach-ling and attack. P isn't gaining anything from a metagame fake-out here. It may be a safe third--it hasn't been tested enough--but if it is, it's not because the opening forces Z to get hydras. (3) Good for Grubby. I'll check out the VOD when I get a chance. Hmm well I it just seems extremely difficult to have enough units to engage in a favorable position with roach/ling, as the protoss army should only be in the open when he's in transit, and having enough roach/ling to take that on during transit/that early would mean a massive drone cut, though I acknowledge that they will have less units as well and forcing ff usage is a pretty big deal. I could be wrong but the way it seems to me is: If they respect the possibility of the allin, they either: Prepare hydra den, or spam low eco roach/ling. If they prepare hydra, they won't be attacking. If they go roach/ling and attack, that's what the build is designed to defend. So either way the build accomplishes it's purpose. This is assuming the build is effective of course, which we need more high level games to go off of. Well I'm not saying it's a metagame fake-out, I'm just saying the zerg is forced to respect the possibility, and can't go up to 75 drones and 4 or 5 hatcheries without worry. Why is Z response the same? If the distinction could be easily made early on, it wouldn't be better to take a fourth, macro hatch, and complete saturation + tech? This seems like a better option than trying to break a third with roach/ling against a build that is theoretically designed to stop it. I mean this is all under assumption that the build is effective at defending a third vs roach ling, as I have been addressing some of the other issues people have been theorizing could come about with the build, aside from the 12 minute roach push. Stephano's build is just drone to 60 and pump roach/ling. He doesn't drone to 75 without doing extreme pressure first. And so to answer your question no it wouldn't be better to sit back and drone and take a fourth and more geysers. Or rather it could be, but that's not how Stephano roflstomp's toss every game. He does by putting massive pressure on after droning to 60. Or just droning to 60 and holding off whatever allin with roach/ling. Because like he said that counters "all Protoss builds" aside from like a double stargate which obviously doesn't apply here as that's a completely different allin which I'm sure he is confident in being able to hold. That's what's being a addressed in the thread, but quit generalizing what he does every game, because he doesn't do it every game, I have every replay pack that features stephano. That aside, I'm not sure you understood the post, because I certainly wasn't asking you a question. I'm saying: IF the distinction could be easily made between an immortal allin and a defensive immortal/sentry, it would be better to just go up to 75 drones 4 bases and a macro hatchery rather than attack into a defensive immortal/sentry with roach ling. And your response to this? no it wouldn't be better to sit back and drone and take a fourth and more geysers. Or rather it could be, but that's not how Stephano roflstomp's toss every game. ... Wait really? Do the exact build the protoss build is meant to counter? My point is the fact that the distinction cannot be easily made, therefor a zerg should be preparing some sort of defense in case of the attack: So it's either cut drones at 60 and go pure roach/ling, or prepare hydralisk defense. In either scenario, the protoss build accomplishes it's purpose: securing a well timed third base, while being safe against roach ling aggression. This is if the build is safe vs roach ling, which we're still waiting on higher level testing. There already has been higher level testing. And we talked about that earlier. With perfect perfect forcefields you MIGHT barally hold. The Protoss build isn't meant to counter that build. It's meant to SURVIVE it. And it's extremely difficult. And still questionable on whether or not it's even possible based on the fact that people who've done this sort of build to hold it still lose some games and other games they successfully hold it off just for the Zerg to not even be behind after the failed extreme aggression. Which IMO should be an allin but isn't just because how the Zerg macro mechanics work. And with multipronged attacking it's still incredibly hard to live. One fucked up forcefield and it's over. Meanwhile the Zerg gets to do nothing except drone to 60 and then pump units and A move. Sounds legit. Edit: and why do you keep talking about hydralisks. It's already be clarified that at no point does Stephano make hydras to deal with a potential immortal gateway push. In fact, it's been clarified that he does the exact same build for defending the allin as he would for pressuring the Protoss's third.
I mention hydralisks because I'm talking about the economically optimal and extremely common response to an immortal/sentry allin, which this build closely resembles.
I see one replay of it, where is the rest of the high level testing?
Where are the GM and pro level testimonials to that specific build?
I saw ranged, who vouched for the build.
And yes it's meant to survive the build, while getting 3bases up and having an extremely well set up mid-lategame.
What's the problem with that again?
|
Against this (it works fairly well, not the perfect strategy but its good if you're really on the ball with denying his scouting. I do a standard FFE, except after I have the pylon up, a cannon or two covering the ramp, and a gateway, i put the cfybernetics core in my main and put down a robo as part of the wall where the core would be before even making a second gate. I put down both gases as soon as my natural is up, and constantly spend chrono on immortals, add 3 more gates while making however many sentries the situation calls for. I poke out to my third and if its safe, i take it and again put down the gases as soon as its up, and add a second robo in my natural and keep pumping out immortals. I make a decent number of stalkers and a handful of zeals, but its mostly sentry immortal, and I put down cannons as a mineral dump instead of zealots until I have all 6 gases running and can afford to double pump immortals and make stalkers constantly as well. I wait for +1 attack until my robo is up, but after i have my 3rd up and am starting to make stalkers as well, i get a council to continue my attac upgrades (and for blink). I don't really pressure early, either. Once i have a few immortals, I do get a warp prism and put usually 2 immortals in it and try to go snipe his roach warren, and the queen if I can manage to get away with it. I keep coming back to try to kill the roach warren, which isn't huge, you might have to turn around, but if you can take it down once or twice, his timing will be later and youll be well prepared. If you are lucky enough to take it down while roach speed is researching, jackpot! If NOTHING else pressure-wise, against this build I ALWAYS send a prism with immortals basically right at the ten minute mark and try to take down the roach warren, at thus point its researching and hes getting ready to go, take the warren down and you're golden. Obviousky losing a warp prism with 2 immortals in it is a ridiculously big loss, so err on the side of caution and go home if it gets dicey, but if im shooting the roach warren and his army gets there and the warren is close to dead,I will ABSOLUTELY sacrifice one immortl to kill it and stop speed. Not both immortals, but its close and it comes down to it, its a favorible trade to mess up his timing bigtime. One time I did this, and the guy made a LOT of speedlings and ran into my third and took it down I tinkered around with putting a few sentries there, but in the end I decided that since im initially keeping my gate count low and zealots tickle roaches and I need sentries, to start just planting cannons as a mineral dump until my third was all good and I could support more warpgates. It works out pretty well if you can manage to keep an observer on him at all times, to know whats up in case you need to make adjustments or slow down on the immortals to add gates or tech up because he pulled some kind ofnweird tech switch. It's not a PERFECT strategy, but the 3base speed roach build is sooo strong against Protoss and while I don't hold it off every time someone does it, this is the only build I have done against it so far that has been able to beat it. I think it comes down to the Immortal drops. Its usually pretty close timing wise, but Ive noticed that every time ive lost to it with this build, i couldnt get his roach warren once, and when I do get it at the 10ish minute mark I can always hold, and with a good bit of my army in tact, too. I've been thinking about getting hallucinate and halucinating immortals and putting them in with the real ones to tank damage (if i kill overseer with stalkrs) but im not sure if it would be worth burning the sentry energy, because obviously GS and FF are SOOO important, but im going to try it, i just havent had anyone go this build against me on ladder in a while. Good luck thiugh man, I feel your pain, you have no idea how many times Ive had this timing crush me. But what im doing niw seems to work, you just have to pay attention for a muta switch, but thats why I add gates and a TC once my third is up. Once i can finally afford to double pump immortals and make blink stalkers out of like 6 gates I feel good, since stalkers are at least DECENT against both units.
|
Honestly though, if you can't snipe the roach warren, you"re just dead. You need to delay the push somehow to be able to hold. Early pressure slows you down, so this is the only way to (almost) keep up and still pressure him and slow him down, since ur making immortals anyway. *it wouldnt let me edit my last post*
|
|
|
Lol why did you post 3 posts in a row. You do know there is an edit button right?
Edit: Oh didn't see you said you couldn't edit. Sorry
|
On March 19 2012 11:40 LF9 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Against this (it works fairly well, not the perfect strategy but its good if you're really on the ball with denying his scouting. I do a standard FFE, except after I have the pylon up, a cannon or two covering the ramp, and a gateway, i put the cfybernetics core in my main and put down a robo as part of the wall where the core would be before even making a second gate. I put down both gases as soon as my natural is up, and constantly spend chrono on immortals, add 3 more gates while making however many sentries the situation calls for. I poke out to my third and if its safe, i take it and again put down the gases as soon as its up, and add a second robo in my natural and keep pumping out immortals. I make a decent number of stalkers and a handful of zeals, but its mostly sentry immortal, and I put down cannons as a mineral dump instead of zealots until I have all 6 gases running and can afford to double pump immortals and make stalkers constantly as well. I wait for +1 attack until my robo is up, but after i have my 3rd up and am starting to make stalkers as well, i get a council to continue my attac upgrades (and for blink). I don't really pressure early, either. Once i have a few immortals, I do get a warp prism and put usually 2 immortals in it and try to go snipe his roach warren, and the queen if I can manage to get away with it. I keep coming back to try to kill the roach warren, which isn't huge, you might have to turn around, but if you can take it down once or twice, his timing will be later and youll be well prepared. If you are lucky enough to take it down while roach speed is researching, jackpot! If NOTHING else pressure-wise, against this build I ALWAYS send a prism with immortals basically right at the ten minute mark and try to take down the roach warren, at thus point its researching and hes getting ready to go, take the warren down and you're golden. Obviousky losing a warp prism with 2 immortals in it is a ridiculously big loss, so err on the side of caution and go home if it gets dicey, but if im shooting the roach warren and his army gets there and the warren is close to dead,I will ABSOLUTELY sacrifice one immortl to kill it and stop speed. Not both immortals, but its close and it comes down to it, its a favorible trade to mess up his timing bigtime. One time I did this, and the guy made a LOT of speedlings and ran into my third and took it down I tinkered around with putting a few sentries there, but in the end I decided that since im initially keeping my gate count low and zealots tickle roaches and I need sentries, to start just planting cannons as a mineral dump until my third was all good and I could support more warpgates. It works out pretty well if you can manage to keep an observer on him at all times, to know whats up in case you need to make adjustments or slow down on the immortals to add gates or tech up because he pulled some kind ofnweird tech switch. It's not a PERFECT strategy, but the 3base speed roach build is sooo strong against Protoss and while I don't hold it off every time someone does it, this is the only build I have done against it so far that has been able to beat it. I think it comes down to the Immortal drops. Its usually pretty close timing wise, but Ive noticed that every time ive lost to it with this build, i couldnt get his roach warren once, and when I do get it at the 10ish minute mark I can always hold, and with a good bit of my army in tact, too. I've been thinking about getting hallucinate and halucinating immortals and putting them in with the real ones to tank damage (if i kill overseer with stalkrs) but im not sure if it would be worth burning the sentry energy, because obviously GS and FF are SOOO important, but im going to try it, i just havent had anyone go this build against me on ladder in a while. Good luck thiugh man, I feel your pain, you have no idea how many times Ive had this timing crush me. But what im doing niw seems to work, you just have to pay attention for a muta switch, but thats why I add gates and a TC once my third is up. Once i can finally afford to double pump immortals and make blink stalkers out of like 6 gates I feel good, since stalkers are at least DECENT against both units.
No one is reading this, till you learn where the 'Enter' key is located.
|
On March 19 2012 08:41 Trusty wrote:
I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build.
That's a very good point. And in general, people need to get out of this hard counter mentality that has plagued the matchup since the beginning. Stephano's build is... good at everything, really. It is not going to be hard countered because it allows a good economy, tech, and potential for aggression (and you don't have to commit to that either), and doesn't really have a vulnerable timing. If you ask me I think it's a great thing for PvZ.
|
On March 19 2012 06:32 Berailfor wrote:
@Infused Giant
Use blink well? Split armies? Count specific amount of drones?
None of those are viable. Blink won't be ready in time. You can't split your army and expect to defend your third unless you know exact army position with halluc (which you already have spent a couple hallucinations on scouting their base) and that would cause a lot less forcefields, which forcefields is the only reason this build doesn't completely destroy you, while if you split your army the only reason why you would is to constantly forcefield 1 ramp while defending the other area being pressured. Which isn't viable on like daybreak once they kill the rocks, and count specific amount of drones? Cmon be realistic. Besides seeing their actual army with scouting is way more of a tell then trying to scout their drone count and discerning what their army size is.
I am realistic. But like I said: It's a combination of buildingplacement, to make your smaller groups (splitting armies) better against the mass roach count). The roaches have 5 range compared to the range of stalkers and colossus which is both 6 (9 with range upgrade ofr colossuss). The time he destroyed your gateways, you already did quite some damage, and it's about time stretching until you have enough colossus.
Most of the time I go for 1-2 immortals and directly start making Colossus. What I saw in the replays of the players here (Some of them) is that they get a lot of immortals like 3-5. But that doesn't work. Immortals are for early roach counts, not mass roach counts, you need colossus for that since that way you can deal splash damage to their large forces.
I tried to find a replay of me playing against that strategie, but wasn't in the latest games I played, I will post it as soon as I got it.
|
On March 19 2012 18:47 InfusedTT.Giant wrote:
The roaches have 5 range compared to the range of stalkers and colossus...
Sorry but this just proved you have nothing to say here. If roaches had 5 range, I would leave game right there and went to play some minesweepers, because FFE would be impossible and GFE would be damn harder.
But for rest of your post, I dont think splitting armies is good idea either, as you give enemy bigger attacking line, increasing roachballs DPS. Correct me if I am wrong about this one, but you wanna engage somewhere where most of roaches cannot attack due to 4 range only, not having arc of units that can be easily attacked by all roaches in same time.
|
On March 19 2012 18:17 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 08:41 Trusty wrote:
I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build.
That's a very good point. And in general, people need to get out of this hard counter mentality that has plagued the matchup since the beginning. Stephano's build is... good at everything, really. It is not going to be hard countered because it allows a good economy, tech, and potential for aggression (and you don't have to commit to that either), and doesn't really have a vulnerable timing. If you ask me I think it's a great thing for PvZ.
Wait so you think a "One build fits all" strategy with no vulnerable timings (can't exploit the fact that you know the exact build they are doing), not needing to commit (not allin) build that it's unclear at the moment if it's even capable of being stopped by a perfectly executed Zerg because if you hold it off its ALWAYS barally, is a GOOD thing for PvZ? Really?
|
On March 19 2012 19:09 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 18:17 MilesTeg wrote:On March 19 2012 08:41 Trusty wrote:
I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build.
That's a very good point. And in general, people need to get out of this hard counter mentality that has plagued the matchup since the beginning. Stephano's build is... good at everything, really. It is not going to be hard countered because it allows a good economy, tech, and potential for aggression (and you don't have to commit to that either), and doesn't really have a vulnerable timing. If you ask me I think it's a great thing for PvZ. Wait so you think a "One build fits all" strategy with no vulnerable timings (can't exploit the fact that you know the exact build they are doing), not needing to commit (not allin) build that it's unclear at the moment if it's even capable of being stopped by a perfectly executed Zerg because if you hold it off its ALWAYS barally, is a GOOD thing for PvZ? Really?
That's not what he meant. He meant that it's a good thing that the matchup is getting developed, Zergs have gotten to a point where we have a build that really doesn't have any big weakness, a build which can't be exploited by the toss by hard countering it. Problem is, of course, that at the moment, this puts protoss in a nasty position because there's no such build for toss yet where the toss can match the zerg without any glaring weaknesses.
It's good for SC2 that we have gotten to the point where a build is truly safe, strong and versatile, but we need it for all races before it will be awesome.
|
On March 19 2012 19:15 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 19:09 Berailfor wrote:On March 19 2012 18:17 MilesTeg wrote:On March 19 2012 08:41 Trusty wrote:
I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build.
That's a very good point. And in general, people need to get out of this hard counter mentality that has plagued the matchup since the beginning. Stephano's build is... good at everything, really. It is not going to be hard countered because it allows a good economy, tech, and potential for aggression (and you don't have to commit to that either), and doesn't really have a vulnerable timing. If you ask me I think it's a great thing for PvZ. Wait so you think a "One build fits all" strategy with no vulnerable timings (can't exploit the fact that you know the exact build they are doing), not needing to commit (not allin) build that it's unclear at the moment if it's even capable of being stopped by a perfectly executed Zerg because if you hold it off its ALWAYS barally, is a GOOD thing for PvZ? Really? That's not what he meant. He meant that it's a good thing that the matchup is getting developed, Zergs have gotten to a point where we have a build that really doesn't have any big weakness, a build which can't be exploited by the toss by hard countering it. Problem is, of course, that at the moment, this puts protoss in a nasty position because there's no such build for toss yet where the toss can match the zerg without any glaring weaknesses. It's good for SC2 that we have gotten to the point where a build is truly safe, strong and versatile, but we need it for all races before it will be awesome.
Agreed, zergs came a long way to adapt to the FFE. It's great to see protoss brainstorm to find a solution, the matchup is getting richer. It's nowhere as entertaining as ZvT yet but we can hope.
|
On March 18 2012 10:35 Skyro wrote:
I don't mean camp your ramp. You wall-off ramp and stick a probe in the gap so no ling runbys and have your 2 zealots prevent building snipes while your cannon gets up. In regards to the zealot timing like I said that is that specific build's zealot timing, you can have warp gate done much faster and the mere threat of it should keep the zerg from grabbing his 3rd super early, unless you are saying a zerg could stop a 6:15 warpgate tech.
I 1 gate FE all the time ( w/o sentries ), and I see Zergs grab their early third all the time too.
The thing is, while it's true that you can get warp done in 6:15, you have nothing to follow it up so early. Unless you did an enormous probe cut, your 4 gates aren't finished yet, you don't have +1 and you don't have the eco to warp zealots immediately.
If you cut probes and go all-in, you may be able to kill the third and force a lot of lings, but you're still behind economically. Zerg can just retake his third and drone like mad, knowing you're forced to tech and pump up your probe count.
The threat of such an early push is empty IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
