EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 23
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Mouzone
3937 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
The build the Protoss is doing looks pretty damn impressive to me, more than the Titan build if I may say. He goes for some standard 8'45 pressure with +1 but follows it up with 10' DTs harass, while making some immortals and securing his third. He ends up losing the game, but that's because of a lack of scouting: Stephano is incredibly behind and goes for direct teching to Brood lords at 15' out of 120 food, with little army. Showtime doesn't realize this and lets him get away with it. I'm not sure Stephano properly executed his build, though. His roach warren looked a bit delayed to me, and he wasn't able to defend his third. Had he saved his third, I'm not sure how the game would have turned out. | ||
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caval
Sweden10 Posts
The build the Protoss is doing looks pretty damn impressive to me, more than the Titan build if I may say. He goes for some standard 8'45 pressure with +1 but follows it up with 10' DTs harass, while making some immortals and securing his third. He ends up losing the game, but that's because of a lack of scouting: Stephano is incredibly behind and goes for direct teching to Brood lords at 15' out of 120 food, with little army. Showtime doesn't realize this and lets him get away with it. I'm not sure Stephano properly executed his build, though. His roach warren looked a bit delayed to me, and he wasn't able to defend his third. Had he saved his third, I'm not sure how the game would have turned out. Stepano is going for a 7:43 roach warden, something that should be put down at the 7 minute mark which absolutly nullifies the early agression in this game and thus makes it invalid to consider *Edit* Also, from the looks of it, Stephano had his lair up at 8:30, well before DT's hit, and thus had the potetial of both scouting the DT tech, and defending from it | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1111 Posts
On March 19 2012 06:45 hzflank wrote: This is a random thought and 100% untested, but if you were to open stargate could you get a dark shrine along with your third and use voidrays (to kill overseers), DTs and cannons to hold it? I've experimented a lot with adoptions of the Brood War Bisu build, and the main problem is the roach. In BW, DTs could fight pretty effectively vs hydra/ling. Roaches however are so cheap and take way too long for DTs to kill. Roach is just a silly unit atm. Cheap and high HP. The main problem with ZvP right now is with the roach imo. They should remove roach and introduce lurker, would make SC2 100 times better. | ||
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
On March 19 2012 21:16 Whalecore wrote: I've experimented a lot with adoptions of the Brood War Bisu build, and the main problem is the roach. In BW, DTs could fight pretty effectively vs hydra/ling. Roaches however are so cheap and take way too long for DTs to kill. Roach is just a silly unit atm. Cheap and high HP. The main problem with ZvP right now is with the roach imo. They should remove roach and introduce lurker, would make SC2 100 times better. I have to agree, I did similar build DTs -> third at 9:40 with blinkstalkers to snipe overseers, it does not work vs stephanos 200/200 roach at 12:00 and I cannot imagine it working with voidrays either. My defensive 6~12 +1 DTs does not kill his 200/200, and even if I sniped his third at around 10+ (6 DTs kill hatch so fast it aint even funny, so if he does not have both army and detection there, he will lose that), I found it damn hard to win, while when I dont snipe third, I can just gg, as even though my DTs + stalkers forces his first push away (I kill his overseer), I will lose way more in terms of resources(blinking for overseer) and once his 2nd push with 2+ Overseers come, I just die. Voidrays does not kill overseers fast enough, same goes for them killing roaches, so I cannot imagine that build working as well. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 19 2012 20:10 Nyast wrote: I 1 gate FE all the time ( w/o sentries ), and I see Zergs grab their early third all the time too. The thing is, while it's true that you can get warp done in 6:15, you have nothing to follow it up so early. Unless you did an enormous probe cut, your 4 gates aren't finished yet, you don't have +1 and you don't have the eco to warp zealots immediately. If you cut probes and go all-in, you may be able to kill the third and force a lot of lings, but you're still behind economically. Zerg can just retake his third and drone like mad, knowing you're forced to tech and pump up your probe count. The threat of such an early push is empty IMO. Right the 6:15 benchmark is merely for illustration purposes and likely not optimal in most scenarios, but my point is that due to the fast core after expand you are a threat much earlier in the game compared to FFE. As long as the zerg player perceives you as a threat you have the chance to force units and slow down his economy regardless if you actually engage them and do any damage. So for instance while they might get used to a certain +1 zealot timing, simply moving out on the map with your initial 2-3 zealots + a probe will cause a reaction, and if say the zerg makes a roach warren and a bunch of roaches you simply run back home and your job is done. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On March 19 2012 20:39 Nyast wrote: I want to plug in that game of Stephano vs Showtime on Cloud Kingdom: The build the Protoss is doing looks pretty damn impressive to me, more than the Titan build if I may say. He goes for some standard 8'45 pressure with +1 but follows it up with 10' DTs harass, while making some immortals and securing his third. He ends up losing the game, but that's because of a lack of scouting: Stephano is incredibly behind and goes for direct teching to Brood lords at 15' out of 120 food, with little army. Showtime doesn't realize this and lets him get away with it. I'm not sure Stephano properly executed his build, though. His roach warren looked a bit delayed to me, and he wasn't able to defend his third. Had he saved his third, I'm not sure how the game would have turned out. Stephano made some mistakes, I don't think the toss build is good at all. Dts that late are by no means guaranteed to do the necessary damage, his third is late, army comp at the usual roach timing isn't that great, ... | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 19 2012 20:39 Nyast wrote: I want to plug in that game of Stephano vs Showtime on Cloud Kingdom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHi89f1gbe8 The build the Protoss is doing looks pretty damn impressive to me, more than the Titan build if I may say. He goes for some standard 8'45 pressure with +1 but follows it up with 10' DTs harass, while making some immortals and securing his third. He ends up losing the game, but that's because of a lack of scouting: Stephano is incredibly behind and goes for direct teching to Brood lords at 15' out of 120 food, with little army. Showtime doesn't realize this and lets him get away with it. I'm not sure Stephano properly executed his build, though. His roach warren looked a bit delayed to me, and he wasn't able to defend his third. Had he saved his third, I'm not sure how the game would have turned out. Hoo boy. (1) Stephano's roach warren was 30 seconds late which left a 30 second window of vulnerability to a +1 zealot timing, and P happened to be doing a build that hit that 30 second window and sniped the third. That's all there is to it. If Stephano had done his usual build with 7:10 roach warren, he would have deflected the zealot timing easily, and would have been able to pressure P's third. I doubt P would have ever reached 3 bases. (2) Even sniping the third, P wasn't really ahead. That's annoying to me--Z screws up, P punishes him, Z is still even--maybe even ahead. It took DT's sniping another base and 5 drones for free (another Z screw-up) for P to develop a small lead. (3) P developed an anti-lair tech army, missed his timing, and wound up fighting a hive-tech army with his anti-lair composition. That was a big mistake, but with the spine crawler wall and plenty of fungals, I think Stephano was going to reach broodlords safely even if P tried to attack. But attacking sooner would have allowed P to do more damage and trade more effectively. (4) Man, Husky still doesn't know this game well. You'd think with the amount of games he's watched, he'd know that stalker-colossus gets rolled by broodlord-infestor. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
(2) Even sniping the third, P wasn't really ahead. That's annoying to me--Z screws up, P punishes him, Z is still even--maybe even ahead. It took DT's sniping another base and 5 drones for free (another Z screw-up) for P to develop a small lead. This, I''ve lost a lot of games because of overestimating the damage zerg takes from thirdsnipes >> | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 20 2012 01:10 kcdc wrote: (2) Even sniping the third, P wasn't really ahead. That's annoying to me--Z screws up, P punishes him, Z is still even--maybe even ahead. It took DT's sniping another base and 5 drones for free (another Z screw-up) for P to develop a small lead. You are reading the game wrong. Stephano isn't 'screwing up' - he is taking a risk by pumping economy, and taking minimal losses because the protoss are focusing on taking down the 3rd - which really isn't that important - instead of doing actual damage by killing tons of drones and or tech buildings in the main. So he loses a hatch - 300 minerals. He builds another. Then he loses that to DT's - so what, the original third is nearly done. Doesn't matter. It's as if a zerg would head on commit to an attack on protoss, kill 2 gateways and a pylon, and think that was a 'victory' ... it really isn't. Protoss screw up by delaying his third too long, chosing to go for 4 gate into dt before expanding. That's way too late for a third. He should have a much faster third, pretty much building when his first attack at the third happens, or go all in as a followup. His whole gameplan is flawed. Those 2 DT's should - at least - have been 4, or better, 6. Going for 3 bases at once. Yeah, it's nearly all in - but that's what you have already chosen when you go for 4 gate pressure into tech ... without taking your third. He starts his third at 11:50 withou having been pressured once, or seen any indication an attack is coming, and without committing to any attacks ... that's just poor planning. | ||
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TheSambassador
United States186 Posts
I haven't done a ton of testing, but a Collosus is going to hit what... 3 roaches per attack at best? With armor reducing it be 2 per shot, it seems like immortals are actually going to have an overall higher DPS (for lower cost) than collosus. In the games that I've seen where the z player goes mass roach, protoss seems to rely on stalker/sentry with only a few immortals (like 2-3) and often gets crushed by a multi-prong attack at the natural and the 3rd. Immortals do more damage than 2 stalkers and can tank more roach hits than 2 stalkers combined. It takes 23 to 21 roach hits to kill an immortal, while it takes 11 to 9 roach hits to kill one stalker (depending on upgrades). I'm not saying "just build immortals" but don't transition to collosus right away. Get a large collosus count early (5 or more) and use them to take your 3rd base. Also, while everybody seems to think that Roaches rape Zealots, it's not completely true. An un-microed roach actually loses to a zealot. They're also amazing at tanking damage and dealing with zerglings, should the z player start transitioning to lings. It seems like the ideal composition to mass roach would be Immortal-Sentry-Chargelot (with stalkers mixed in). Keep in mind this is 100% theorycrafting, but I don't think that Protoss players currently realize how incredibly powerful Immortals are. The only major problem I could see is the roach-to-mutalisk switch... getting caught without stalkers could be bad, but an observer in the zerg's main/natural could easily spot the spire and start transitioning to blink stalkers. | ||
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zEnVy
United States446 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 20 2012 01:33 aebriol wrote: You are reading the game wrong. Stephano isn't 'screwing up' - he is taking a risk by pumping economy, and taking minimal losses because the protoss are focusing on taking down the 3rd - which really isn't that important - instead of doing actual damage by killing tons of drones and or tech buildings in the main. So he loses a hatch - 300 minerals. He builds another. Then he loses that to DT's - so what, the original third is nearly done. Doesn't matter. It's as if a zerg would head on commit to an attack on protoss, kill 2 gateways and a pylon, and think that was a 'victory' ... it really isn't. Protoss screw up by delaying his third too long, chosing to go for 4 gate into dt before expanding. That's way too late for a third. He should have a much faster third, pretty much building when his first attack at the third happens, or go all in as a followup. His whole gameplan is flawed. Those 2 DT's should - at least - have been 4, or better, 6. Going for 3 bases at once. Yeah, it's nearly all in - but that's what you have already chosen when you go for 4 gate pressure into tech ... without taking your third. He starts his third at 11:50 withou having been pressured once, or seen any indication an attack is coming, and without committing to any attacks ... that's just poor planning. This is silly logic. "Sure, you can invest in light pressure and do big economic damage because I took a risk and played unsafe, but unless it actually kills me, I should still be at least even." Does that sentence apply in any other MU? I P gets his FE killed by a Terran 2-rax, is the game even? Or on the other side of the PvZ MU, if P "takes a risk" by taking a fast third behind some fake gateway pressure and has his nexus killed by 20 speedlings, is the game even? Stephano was definitely set back substantially by having his third sniped. The fact that a very favorable trade for P left the game even tells you that Z's build started out far ahead of P's build, and it took a favorable even for P to pull even. That game provides pretty solid evidence that 4 gate +1 zealot pressure is bad. Even when it goes well, P just pulls even. | ||
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Chemist391
United States366 Posts
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
You should try the 1 stargate (1 voydrai and 4 phenixes) into expand . Genius did it pretty well in the GSL and yesterday Grubby did the same build against Violet (LoneStarClash) when he decided to go for a macro game (he won the game and the series) . This build can also be played as an all in (Grubby did it against Hawk on game 2) . | ||
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RRDjhonn
34 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On March 20 2012 02:03 Swiipii wrote: @Kcdc What you don't get is that destroying a third whithout killing any drones is pretty much useless . You should try the 1 stargate (1 voydrai and 4 phenixes) into expand . Genius did it pretty well in the GSL and yesterday Grubby did the same build against Violet (LoneStarClash) when he decided to go for a macro game (he won the game and the series) . This build can also be played as an all in (Grubby did it against Hawk on game 2) . This is nonsense. You don't just lose 300 minerals when you lose a base - you lose the resources you would have mined from that base, too. You also lose the larva. The hatchery is the single most important building for a zerg - it is the only one that builds units and the only one that collects resouces. Saying the cost of losing one is "minimal" is just silly. Kcdc wrote a guide on 1-stargate play (called Stalkerless PvZ) so it isn't as though he hasn't "tried" it. This whole thread was created because he had been playing that way, suddenly ran up against this style, and had absolutely no idea how to stop it. On another note, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why we're still discussing a whole slew of builds other than the fast third build that incorporates a blink at ~11 minutes, and a robo before taking a super early third. I saw something about ling runbys, but other than execution troubles (which can be solved by better execution) I haven't seen a reason not to go this route. | ||
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BlazeTSR
United States218 Posts
I'm by no means know a ton about the gameplay, but just thought i'd put in my two cents. From what I've seen Artosis do I think the timings may aline nicely and answer at least to slow the zerg down. I'll search for replays when I get a chance; when I find them I'll add them to this post. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 20 2012 01:59 Chemist391 wrote: This is purely speculation...what about 2 stargate play? With that high of an air-unit count, you are pretty much guaranteed to slow Z's push significantly. You can't get an ultra fast 3rd, but with enough VR out, you can maybe hold a delayed speedroach push? And it seems to me that 2SG play would likely just cause Z to abandon this build in favor of hydra, infestor, or spire tech. The Zerg isn't building those roaches to win the game with them, they are to stop the third and trade army. Going double stargate just means the toss doesn't have an army you need to trade against, and they aren't able to take their third, so as a zerg you can simply take your fourth and macro even harder. If the toss tries to harass with the air units, you just attack with your roaches, forcing the phoenix to waste their energy on lifting roaches. | ||
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
On March 20 2012 02:44 Treehead wrote: This is nonsense. You don't just lose 300 minerals when you lose a base - you lose the resources you would have mined from that base, too. You also lose the larva. The hatchery is the single most important building for a zerg - it is the only one that builds units and the only one that collects resouces. Saying the cost of losing one is "minimal" is just silly. Man Stephano proves it quite well and said it several times on his stream . If you lose your third but not your drones it won't be hard to comeback (you have a macro hatch and your third will be remplace ASAP) . | ||
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