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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 18 2012 04:37 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
i dont know why people call this the "stephano style" since he didnt innovate 3 hatch into roach ling aggression. stephano style is rather mass spine crawler around the time you get your infestors to be super safe against everything and then transition into mass broodlord/corrupter/infestor with heavy upgrades.
That's a very superficial way to see it. AFAIK he's the one who came up with the gas and upgrade timings, which is what makes the build so strong and safe. It's like when people say that Stephano style ZvT is "ling infestor", while what makes it really special is the gas/upgrade timings and the macro hatch.
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Just out of curiosity, what happens if you 4-gate vs early 3rd builds? Maybe do a pylon block (so z has to take his 3rd as his 2nd expo) into 4 gate?
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On March 18 2012 11:11 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 10:35 Skyro wrote:On March 18 2012 09:41 kcdc wrote:On March 18 2012 07:11 Skyro wrote:
I said you can have 2 zealots + a cannon @ 5mins, which is around when 12 lings would reach your base since you were specifically asking about 12 lings. You can defend the initial 6 lings from a 14 pool with 2 zealots with a walled-off ramp. 6 lings aren't taking down your nexus anytime soon.
Maybe not, but they'll kill your pylon, your forge/core (if they're on the low ground), and any cannons you try to warp in. And it absolutely is possible for Z to defend a third against a 7:10 +1 zealot timing. You might be having success with the build on ladder, but it's because Zerg players don't recognize the build or know what to do. It's not a solution to the problem of Z getting an early economy lead and massing speed roaches to prevent your third any more than the 7:30 +1 zealot off a standard FFE was. If it becomes popular, Zerg players will figure it out. I don't mean camp your ramp. You wall-off ramp and stick a probe in the gap so no ling runbys and have your 2 zealots prevent building snipes while your cannon gets up. In regards to the zealot timing like I said that is that specific build's zealot timing, you can have warp gate done much faster and the mere threat of it should keep the zerg from grabbing his 3rd super early, unless you are saying a zerg could stop a 6:15 warpgate tech. The timing is great also because it forces early units, and it does make a difference because the earlier you force units the better since a zerg's economy grows exponentially the earlier he makes his workers. Not saying it's the solution b/c it is so untested but I don't see how you deny its potential. These numbers don't add up. Thanks to PvP, I know you can hit a 5:40 WG timing off of a 12 gate with core as the gate finishes. Now you're saying you can go 13 gate, nexus, gas, zealot, forge, core and hit a 6:10 WG timing. And the same build has 2 zealots and a cannon by 5:00. And you can protect the building cannon against 6 lings because you have 2 zealots before you start the cannon. It's not gonna happen. I believe it was Feast that I saw do a funky build with gate -> core -> forge -> nexus on Cloud Kingdom (I think?) to hit an unusually fast WG timing in a recent European tournament. That seems like it's sort of close to what you're getting at, but because the first buildings walled off the natural and the gate, core, forge and a zealot were all before the nexus, it was decently safe. I'm not convinced that it was a super-strong build, but it hit a timing that the Zerg wasn't familiar with, and it did solid damage, leading to a Protoss win.
No I was saying that you can get a cannon + 2 zealots @ 5 mins IF you go forge after nexus @ 20 supply, based on what you scout. Alternatively if you scout no early pressure (i.e. 15 hatch, no gas, etc.) then you can safely go core before forge and hit a timing where @ 6:15 warp gate tech completes. You basically have exactly 150 minerals @ 3:35 to throw down either your forge or core so you see where I get those timings. So it is an either or proposition, but that is ok because you can base your decision on scouting.
And like I said I don't know how safe it is either because I haven't run through it enough times to say so definitively, but so far it does seem solid to me and I was merely pointing it out for it's potential. For example you're right that zergs would get used to any standard timing, but then you start going into mind games and fake pressure (or "sharking" or w/e the hell incontrol called it), and the fact you can force units at such an early point while not even having to commit to any pressure is where I see the potential because as I said forcing units early is better than forcing units later due to how zerg's economy grows exponentially if left alone. The main question really is if the build is completely safe early because if it is then I see almost no reason why not to use it.
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On March 18 2012 11:37 Hossinaut wrote:
Hey Skyro, I think you can put this argument to rest by posting a replay. kcdc has better rapport and has been proven to be a solid contributor to the community here in TL. His word is going to be taken with greater validity than someone who isn't similarly recognized.
I am also in your position Skyro, and I recognize the importance of having an opinion and sticking with it, but post an example and you will be taken seriously in these claims. I don't necessarily intend to intrude, but at a certain point you have to recognize that your e-peen is lesser than his and substantiate your claims. The other way to approach this I believe has been exhausted in your case by providing conversational material to probe the issue, and you continue to state that you know something.
I don't know how to say things differently or more clearly.
This entire thread is a discussion on theory, and I'm only discussing an opening where the timings I mention can be easily reproduced. I mention it to kcdc because he is higher ranked (I'm low masters) so I can get his thoughts and perhaps convince him to experiment with the opening. kcdc's concerns are about its safety, which is impossible to prove through replays because there are various all-ins that zerg can be used to break it. One must find out for themselves if a build is completely safe or not through trial and error.
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The best solution I see to the current ZvP metagame is pretty much doing the Yuffie Gate Nexus build if you can scout that he hasn't taken an early gas and follow up with a strong 4 Gate +1 Attack to help establish a third base and punish greedy player (You can it out at around 7:20 without cutting probes), in the case you scout early gas then I think either a 2 Gate Voidray or 3 Gate expansion is a good way to go. I haven't been able to experiment to much with it but it pretty much speeds up your timings from your standard FFE and ultimately forces the Zerg to have to invest more into defense earlier thus prohibiting such a huge leap in economy and production. The only problem I see with this is if you cant scout the gas timings, but I feel like if he does a gas opening you don't have to worry about playing at from such a huge disadvantage thus making 1 base openings more viable.
But in terms of the FFE style I saw Naniwa do a very interesting opening against Ret at the Redbull Lan where he took a crazy fast third base on Daybreak with gateway units followed by a 3 Robotics transition with Immortals and Colossi. (Yeah you heard me right) I'm curious to see if like a 2 Gate follow up after Nexus first with Chrono Boosted stalkers into a fast third could be viable, it pretty much exposes the fact that his speed is so late allowing you to effectively control the map long enough to establish third bases defences, it also forces a-lot of units unless he wants to die.
These are the things I've been toying around with and I personally feel they yield a-lot of potential. An important thing to note about these options I've suggested is that they require a vast amount of APM and multi tasking in stages of the game where Protoss is not used to being pressured in those ways, because of this it could take some time to adapt but it opens up the skill ceiling quiet a bit when you can use active units.
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On March 18 2012 12:28 Astro-Penguin wrote:
The best solution I see to the current ZvP metagame is pretty much doing the Yuffie Gate Nexus build if you can scout that he hasn't taken an early gas and follow up with a strong 4 Gate +1 Attack to help establish a third base and punish greedy player (You can it out at around 7:20 without cutting probes), in the case you scout early gas then I think either a 2 Gate Voidray or 3 Gate expansion is a good way to go. I haven't been able to experiment to much with it but it pretty much speeds up your timings from your standard FFE and ultimately forces the Zerg to have to invest more into defense earlier thus prohibiting such a huge leap in economy and production. The only problem I see with this is if you cant scout the gas timings, but I feel like if he does a gas opening you don't have to worry about playing at from such a huge disadvantage thus making 1 base openings more viable.
But in terms of the FFE style I saw Naniwa do a very interesting opening against Ret at the Redbull Lan where he took a crazy fast third base on Daybreak with gateway units followed by a 3 Robotics transition with Immortals and Colossi. (Yeah you heard me right) I'm curious to see if like a 2 Gate follow up after Nexus first with Chrono Boosted stalkers into a fast third could be viable, it pretty much exposes the fact that his speed is so late allowing you to effectively control the map long enough to establish third bases defences, it also forces a-lot of units unless he wants to die.
These are the things I've been toying around with and I personally feel they yield a-lot of potential. An important thing to note about these options I've suggested is that they require a vast amount of APM and multi tasking in stages of the game where Protoss is not used to being pressured in those ways, because of this it could take some time to adapt but it opens up the skill ceiling quiet a bit when you can use active units.
I've tried doing stuff like that, but i just get raped by brood lord follow ups
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On March 18 2012 12:30 aRyuujin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 12:28 Astro-Penguin wrote:
The best solution I see to the current ZvP metagame is pretty much doing the Yuffie Gate Nexus build if you can scout that he hasn't taken an early gas and follow up with a strong 4 Gate +1 Attack to help establish a third base and punish greedy player (You can it out at around 7:20 without cutting probes), in the case you scout early gas then I think either a 2 Gate Voidray or 3 Gate expansion is a good way to go. I haven't been able to experiment to much with it but it pretty much speeds up your timings from your standard FFE and ultimately forces the Zerg to have to invest more into defense earlier thus prohibiting such a huge leap in economy and production. The only problem I see with this is if you cant scout the gas timings, but I feel like if he does a gas opening you don't have to worry about playing at from such a huge disadvantage thus making 1 base openings more viable.
But in terms of the FFE style I saw Naniwa do a very interesting opening against Ret at the Redbull Lan where he took a crazy fast third base on Daybreak with gateway units followed by a 3 Robotics transition with Immortals and Colossi. (Yeah you heard me right) I'm curious to see if like a 2 Gate follow up after Nexus first with Chrono Boosted stalkers into a fast third could be viable, it pretty much exposes the fact that his speed is so late allowing you to effectively control the map long enough to establish third bases defences, it also forces a-lot of units unless he wants to die.
These are the things I've been toying around with and I personally feel they yield a-lot of potential. An important thing to note about these options I've suggested is that they require a vast amount of APM and multi tasking in stages of the game where Protoss is not used to being pressured in those ways, because of this it could take some time to adapt but it opens up the skill ceiling quiet a bit when you can use active units.
I've tried doing stuff like that, but i just get raped by brood lord follow ups
Well this is actually sort of a good thing because suddenly the problem is no longer dying to mass roach when you try to establish a third base. Generally trading another problem for another isn't a good thing but in this case this is a problem you encounter later in the game and as the game progresses forwards options begin to open up, and although the solution becomes less obvious it allows for more leeway and a higher surplus of solutions.
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On March 18 2012 12:14 VoirDire wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you 4-gate vs early 3rd builds? Maybe do a pylon block (so z has to take his 3rd as his 2nd expo) into 4 gate?
if they see that you dont ffe (more like: if they see you have a gas taken), they simply stay on 2 base since they know you put up a nexus?^^
and its no stable build at all, you can play it once per opponent - and it most likely wont work unless he messes up his scouting completly.
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On March 18 2012 12:38 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 12:14 VoirDire wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you 4-gate vs early 3rd builds? Maybe do a pylon block (so z has to take his 3rd as his 2nd expo) into 4 gate? if they see that you dont ffe (more like: if they see you have a gas taken), they simply stay on 2 base since they know you put up a nexus?^^ and its no stable build at all, you can play it once per opponent - and it most likely wont work unless he messes up his scouting completly.
Quoting Axslav here but basically they can actually hold a 4 Gate with 3 base by just making nothing but pure lings over and over, even if they lose a base they will still be so far ahead, just transfer drones away from the hatchery under contention.
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On March 18 2012 11:53 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 11:37 Hossinaut wrote:
Hey Skyro, I think you can put this argument to rest by posting a replay. kcdc has better rapport and has been proven to be a solid contributor to the community here in TL. His word is going to be taken with greater validity than someone who isn't similarly recognized.
I am also in your position Skyro, and I recognize the importance of having an opinion and sticking with it, but post an example and you will be taken seriously in these claims. I don't necessarily intend to intrude, but at a certain point you have to recognize that your e-peen is lesser than his and substantiate your claims. The other way to approach this I believe has been exhausted in your case by providing conversational material to probe the issue, and you continue to state that you know something.
I don't know how to say things differently or more clearly. Nah, Skyro's good. And I'm glad he brought that build up because I wouldn't have thought of the idea of getting a faster core to hit an unusually fast WG timing. But I think the 6:10 WG timing is a stretch--you'd have to play unsafe to hit that timing with a nexus before 20 supply, and I'm pretty sure that the 5:00 timing with 2 zealots and a cannon can't be hit with a 6:10 WG timing. I think the 6:10 WG timing comes if you get the core right after the nexus and chronoboost the crap out of WG tech, but if you do that, you won't have the defense up as quickly.
Fair enough, I apologize. Please forgive me.
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On March 18 2012 12:38 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 12:14 VoirDire wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you 4-gate vs early 3rd builds? Maybe do a pylon block (so z has to take his 3rd as his 2nd expo) into 4 gate? if they see that you dont ffe (more like: if they see you have a gas taken), they simply stay on 2 base since they know you put up a nexus?^^ and its no stable build at all, you can play it once per opponent - and it most likely wont work unless he messes up his scouting completly.
Of course 4-gate is not a "stable build" to use multiple times in a row in a BoX series. But most zergs only scout once their lings are out, and they often wait until they've killed the pylon. By the time they get to Ps base the 4-gate is almost complete.
Can Z hold this anyway with spines and lings or do you have to drone scout to be safe vs 4-gate?
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On March 18 2012 12:57 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 12:38 KalWarkov wrote:On March 18 2012 12:14 VoirDire wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you 4-gate vs early 3rd builds? Maybe do a pylon block (so z has to take his 3rd as his 2nd expo) into 4 gate? if they see that you dont ffe (more like: if they see you have a gas taken), they simply stay on 2 base since they know you put up a nexus?^^ and its no stable build at all, you can play it once per opponent - and it most likely wont work unless he messes up his scouting completly. Quoting Axslav here but basically they can actually hold a 4 Gate with 3 base by just making nothing but pure lings over and over, even if they lose a base they will still be so far ahead, just transfer drones away from the hatchery under contention.
I have tried this, and I would be interested in the gas timing, as I feel like the lings would need to have speed, and that you'd need a few spines at your nat. :/
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In my honest opinion I favor Forge FE builds over gateway expanding in PvZ, I think that the correct way to play is to open forge FE with gateway pressure then get void rays / immediatly into colossus after you get voidrays to nullify the roaches while you are taking you're 3rd, then once you are safe vs the mass roach threat, you transition accordingly, but I really enjoy a large mass of colossi / void ray along w/ stalkers / a few sentrys for gaurdian shield and zealots to tank speedling damage, just seal you're base up / add more cannons before an attack, that is my opinion though. Nice thread. 
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when you say gateway expanding is bad do you mean 3 gate ,1 gate - core - nexus, or straight up gasless Gate-nexus-forge with 2-4 zealot pressure?
I mention this because ive been doing this build every pvz and it actually has proven to be safer and keeps economies even long enough that it seems to prevent the 12 minute max. im sorry i dont have replays but im out of town (and in diamond league anyways), but as someone who does 50/50 P/Z, i can say that 3 early game zealots are almost always incredibly cost efficiant, and can 1) force 10+ lings 2) kill lots of em with good positioning 3) make a third ineffective for an extra minute or 2 4) damage the hatch (ive killed it once) enough to make your next push super effective 5) allow you to scout a roach rush with enough time to cannon up
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Why have some Korean Protosses not been fully walling their ramp, when they wall at their ramp and not at to the nexus?
As Korean Terrans (MKP) will sometimes not wall their ramps either, I wonder if the mobility offered by not walling could be applied by abusing some of the mobile options Protoss has. Would a style similar to ling/muta be similar to stalling the assault with counterattacks?
What if you blink stalkers into the main and warp in a few zealots at the third of the Zerg near the timing of the assault? Force them to either take a lot of damage and know that your stalkers can get back pretty quick to help deal with their assault or return and delay the assault giving yourself more time?
EDIT: Grammar
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On March 18 2012 13:26 Hossinaut wrote:
Why have some Korean Protosses not been fully walling their ramp, when they wall at their ramp and not at to the nexus.
As Korean Terrans (MKP) will sometimes not wall their ramps either, I wonder if the mobility offered by not walling could be applied by abusing some of the mobile options Protoss has. Would a style similar to ling/muta be similar to stalling the assault with counterattacks?
What if you blink stalkers into the main and warp in a few zealots at the third of the Zerg near the timing of the assault? Force them to either take a lot of damage and know that your stalkers can get back pretty quick to help deal with their assault or return and delay the assault giving yourself more time?
I'm assuming you mean leaving 1 hex available for units to get out, the main reasons i do it is as follows;
If your scouting probe dies and your unsure if an all in is coming you can end up having to flip a coin if you cant send another probe out to scout.
Having to kill of a building is a waste of resources and can slow down timing pushes, specifically if you have to make proxy pylons as you are pushing out you are losing valuable time.
The only real benefit you get from a complete wall is more safety against things like baneling all ins but if your scouting proficiently you can wall off completely on time to stop such a thing.
Simply leaving a zealot or sentry in the hex pretty much denies ling counterattacks if you push out or take a third.
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Something i've been dong is a 4 gate +1 WP while taking a third, and building immortals to prevent the roach counterattack, it works fairly well at denying their third.
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On March 18 2012 13:32 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 13:26 Hossinaut wrote:
Why have some Korean Protosses not been fully walling their ramp, when they wall at their ramp and not at to the nexus.
As Korean Terrans (MKP) will sometimes not wall their ramps either, I wonder if the mobility offered by not walling could be applied by abusing some of the mobile options Protoss has. Would a style similar to ling/muta be similar to stalling the assault with counterattacks?
What if you blink stalkers into the main and warp in a few zealots at the third of the Zerg near the timing of the assault? Force them to either take a lot of damage and know that your stalkers can get back pretty quick to help deal with their assault or return and delay the assault giving yourself more time? I'm assuming you mean leaving 1 hex available for units to get out, the main reasons i do it is as follows; If your scouting probe dies and your unsure if an all in is coming you can end up having to flip a coin if you cant send another probe out to scout. Having to kill of a building is a waste of resources and can slow down timing pushes, specifically if you have to make proxy pylons as you are pushing out you are losing valuable time. The only real benefit you get from a complete wall is more safety against things like baneling all ins but if your scouting proficiently you can wall off completely on time to stop such a thing. Simply leaving a zealot or sentry in the hex pretty much denies ling counterattacks if you push out or take a third.
1 hex available is walled in my opinion. What I am referring to is more similar to coL.Killer v FXO_Lucky in the Up and Downs or a better example is BumbleBee_Prime v SlayerS_Alicia in the GSL S2 2012 Up and Downs Group C set 3 (BB.Prime v SlayerS.Alicia) and Group D set 10 (coL.Killer v FXO_Lucky)
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On March 18 2012 12:28 Astro-Penguin wrote:
I'm curious to see if like a 2 Gate follow up after Nexus first with Chrono Boosted stalkers into a fast third could be viable, it pretty much exposes the fact that his speed is so late allowing you to effectively control the map long enough to establish third bases defences, it also forces a-lot of units unless he wants to die.
FFE straight to dual stalker is a cute idea. I don't think you could skip the cannon tho--you'd have lings in your mineral lines long before you got the stalkers out. The standard right now seems to be zergling speed finishing at ~9 min, so you'd have about 2 minutes to poke around with stalkers off of a FFE. You might not do any real damage tho if they just get a spine at their 3rd and their natural and micro their queens a bit, but it'd be worth testing out. The only downside is that you're building early stalkers, and stalkers kind of suck compared to getting sentries early to accumulate energy or spending the gas on tech.
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i also have been having a lot of trouble with this build, so i watch a lot of gsl toss.
STSquirtle in particular, and ive figured out how to beat it imo.
open ffe
stargate
4 total gateways
void with phoenex to pressure
5 phonex total to stop any mutalisk
twilight council
3rd
then keep up control of map with phonex and grab fleet beacon and ht
4th and mothership
(then entire game keep harassing with proxy pylon blink and stuff to maintain pressure and map control
so ya that has been working for me against mid-high master zerg
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EPT
