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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 16 2012 12:47 sofakng wrote:
Honestly all I've really been doing lately is fast third off of a void ray and a couple of units. Or a third off of like a zealot and 2 stalker pressure into blink or something like that. All in all it involes super fast thirds, fast blink while taking said third along with immortal production and double upgrades when possible. The super heavy immortal blink style when played perfectly is great vs anything zerg can really throw at you imo. It allows for a transition into either templar or collosus. The only problem is if you arent active with scouting.
All in all if everything else fails just go double stargate into carriers super fun build ^^.
Before you say I noob for using carriers I've beaten quite a few pros with them and with the other style as well.
I do super fast WG and Zealot + 1 attack while taking a super fast third. Same idea as you, different implementation.
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You're taking FFE as a given in this situation. If you consider other openings you'll find yourself a lot less lost in this situation.
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On March 16 2012 08:17 Flonomenalz wrote:
I think people are forgetting also, that Stephano is really, really good.
And I don't think you need absolutely perfect FFs to hold this at all, stop exaggerating. You guys are underestimating how cost effective sentry immortal with FFs is against Roach/Ling.
I really like the Titan replay, I think every Toss should check that out.
For those saying you can't scout the Zerg follow up, since you should be going sentry immortal anyway, there's this unit called an observer, and it's near invisible, and you can just sit in his main and scout his tech.... and make another one to see his army movement.
I would say the same too. Just because you lose to that style doesn't mean you are losing to the stephano's style, you could just not playing as good as your opponent did.
Supply usually heavily favor zergs at that point if he is going for roaches but it doesn't mean your units are any way weaker than his. Especially if you are using stalker, sentries immortals, you can trade extremely cost efficiently all the time.
immortals kill a roaches with like 3 attacks, tank about 6 to 8 roaches fire attack.
The roaches are meant to put on pressure on toss while teching up for infestors broodlords/muta, it's not supposed to be a kill move, which is why getting a third is crucial unless you plan to do a 2base all in.
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On March 16 2012 12:48 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:47 sofakng wrote:
Honestly all I've really been doing lately is fast third off of a void ray and a couple of units. Or a third off of like a zealot and 2 stalker pressure into blink or something like that. All in all it involes super fast thirds, fast blink while taking said third along with immortal production and double upgrades when possible. The super heavy immortal blink style when played perfectly is great vs anything zerg can really throw at you imo. It allows for a transition into either templar or collosus. The only problem is if you arent active with scouting.
All in all if everything else fails just go double stargate into carriers super fun build ^^.
Before you say I noob for using carriers I've beaten quite a few pros with them and with the other style as well. I do super fast WG and Zealot + 1 attack while taking a super fast third. Same idea as you, different implementation.
I have a problem with the 4 gate timings. Maybe its because my timings arent perfect but they are basically figured out now and most zergs are getting roaches now. A counter atttack after a fast third could really suck and youd have to stall with something or have teched up fast. Any reps vs some noteable player I wanna see how this works. The only time I find use for the 4 gate build is when i go dt immediately afterwards then into a blink all in. (super op feeling if you hit before roaches)
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On March 16 2012 13:06 tsuxiit wrote:
You're taking FFE as a given in this situation. If you consider other openings you'll find yourself a lot less lost in this situation.
ffe is the best protoss opening vs zerg. I go nexus first but thats essentially the same.
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I have been having great success with double stargate openings. I dont thing they are cheesy or all in in any way. I feel like they counter muta openings, early roach pressure and let you take a fast third on most maps. If they open hydras and dont go all in (nydus, overlord highway) you can get a sentries + 6 or so voids and hold almost anything. W/ the fast third I like to focus on moar gas than minerals because u need either sentries or tech to collosus asap. Usually you wont face any pressure though when you do the two stargate build because theyre stuck in their base.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid.
I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano
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Canada13407 Posts
On March 16 2012 14:16 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid. I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano
Thats the hard part: how the hell do you know Z wants to mass roach you at a stupid early 12 minute max?
After this it becomes how can you split your units to defend from split roach attacks. Funny thing to note, Stephano and white ra playing off race games, on metal white ra literally makes nothing but roaches off 3 base and kills stephano who was playing a pretty standard blink stalker with immortal into 3rd build 
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On March 16 2012 14:26 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 14:16 Plexa wrote:On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid. I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano Thats the hard part: how the hell do you know Z wants to mass roach you at a stupid early 12 minute max? After this it becomes how can you split your units to defend from split roach attacks. Funny thing to note, Stephano and white ra playing off race games, on metal white ra literally makes nothing but roaches off 3 base and kills stephano who was playing a pretty standard blink stalker with immortal into 3rd build
I don't think you can ever really tell. Besides researching hallucination would make you much more vulnerable. I think the idea should be to make this build work for any PvZ when Zerg takes an early 3rd. It's not that easy to attack at 7:30 for Zerg (depends on the map though) I think.
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On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid.
Seems to me robo before the additional gateways + a warp prism as the first robo unit made allows you to pressure/threaten/scout with it with no real drawbacks. I guess he wanted to have 5 gates up before he physically took his 3rd but I don't really think that's necessary as zerg will have no units out and if he does you get delayed for like ~30 secs but zerg was forced to waste a bunch of larve on what will most likely be lings.
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On March 16 2012 13:42 meltingmykohchoo wrote:
I have been having great success with double stargate openings. I dont thing they are cheesy or all in in any way. I feel like they counter muta openings, early roach pressure and let you take a fast third on most maps. If they open hydras and dont go all in (nydus, overlord highway) you can get a sentries + 6 or so voids and hold almost anything. W/ the fast third I like to focus on moar gas than minerals because u need either sentries or tech to collosus asap. Usually you wont face any pressure though when you do the two stargate build because theyre stuck in their base.
What do you do if the zerg simply pushes? By the time your double stargate hits his base, he should be close to maxed on roaches and can just a-move into your nat... there will be way too many roaches for your air to take them out, and if you try to take them out, you leave the zergs bases completely free of harassment and when you've defended, any chance of doing air damage has been stopped.
I mean, void rays are definitely a hard counter to roaches, but there's no way you can have enough void rays at the 12 minute mark to stop 50 roaches from trampling you, right?
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On March 16 2012 14:16 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid. I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano
I have an extreme dislike for builds that simply lose if the zerg decides to cheese (thinking 6 pool). 17 nexus feels like auto loss even with the 9 scout. So you see the six pool and you're already at fourteen supply. Your pylon is on the low ground, how do you respond safely? Chances are I'm just bad and there is a safe hold.
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On March 16 2012 18:01 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 14:16 Plexa wrote:On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid. I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano I have an extreme dislike for builds that simply lose if the zerg decides to cheese (thinking 6 pool). 17 nexus feels like auto loss even with the 9 scout. So you see the six pool and you're already at fourteen supply. Your pylon is on the low ground, how do you respond safely? Chances are I'm just bad and there is a safe hold.
Its extremely difficult to hold if you dont get the forge down in time for you to place a cannon down. However, this nexus first was on daybreak, i would imagine DRG sure as hell didnt even think about 6 pooling on a map that large even if its 2 player.
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On March 16 2012 18:01 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 14:16 Plexa wrote:On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid. I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano I have an extreme dislike for builds that simply lose if the zerg decides to cheese (thinking 6 pool). 17 nexus feels like auto loss even with the 9 scout. So you see the six pool and you're already at fourteen supply. Your pylon is on the low ground, how do you respond safely? Chances are I'm just bad and there is a safe hold.
Although this is off topic, yes 17 nexus 17 forge should always lose to a 6 pool, unless its a reallllllly huge map. I think most of the pro's just don't 6 pool so that's why pro protoss players are so greedy. When I play on the KR server in low masters tons of zergs 6 pool, and it's insane to go anything but 13 forge on most maps >.> But on NA I actually feel a bit safer going nexus first so it's kinda meta-gamy.
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On March 16 2012 14:16 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid. I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano
I've been using this build for a while, and instead of getting an obs I get hallucination. That way it's possible to even have an extra immortal out if the zerg tries to hit a timing and bust the 3rd. You're getting a cannon at the 3rd, so unless you are really worried about burrow, I don't see a problem with cutting this corner. Also with hallucination you can be scouting for a muta switch, and you can place a Halluc pheonix to follow his roach army. More vision = better forcefields.
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On March 16 2012 12:48 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:47 sofakng wrote:
Honestly all I've really been doing lately is fast third off of a void ray and a couple of units. Or a third off of like a zealot and 2 stalker pressure into blink or something like that. All in all it involes super fast thirds, fast blink while taking said third along with immortal production and double upgrades when possible. The super heavy immortal blink style when played perfectly is great vs anything zerg can really throw at you imo. It allows for a transition into either templar or collosus. The only problem is if you arent active with scouting.
All in all if everything else fails just go double stargate into carriers super fun build ^^.
Before you say I noob for using carriers I've beaten quite a few pros with them and with the other style as well. I do super fast WG and Zealot + 1 attack while taking a super fast third. Same idea as you, different implementation.
This dies to the roach attack though. The +1 zealot attack is completely thwarthed by roaches and if you focus on early zealots and +1 you aren't able to make sentries and simply can't hold the third.
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On March 16 2012 14:16 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid. I think his build could be made more solid if he gets hallucination before expanding ensuring that what he is doing is safe, rather than just blind countering stephano
I usually do something like this but use a stargate first and don't get +1 or additional gates as fast. For holding the roach attack +1 attack and blink are not that great and should be delayed till later really. +1 attack does practically nothing for sentry/stalker vs roach and blink is not worth it defensively as it doesn't do anything if they are trying to attack infrastructure or probes anyway. Just adding in a stargate before doing this makes you safer (just in case he does 2 base aggression), forces some spores and gives you some nice units to attack the roaches if they are trying to break down a wall-in. Robo into third base without sg is often just loss against a zerg who recognizes it and simply switches from roach into muta/ling.
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nexus first auto loses to 6pool
6pool gets significantly behind against forge before nexus
nexus first gets slightly ahead against pool first
hatch first gets very slightly ahead against nexus first
hatch first auto loses to forge before nexus
looking at this dynamic the standard, 'legit' opening should be pool then hatchery against forge then nexus.
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On March 16 2012 21:44 willverrecken wrote:
nexus first auto loses to 6pool
6pool gets significantly behind against forge before nexus
nexus first gets slightly ahead against pool first
hatch first gets very slightly ahead against nexus first
hatch first auto loses to forge before nexus
looking at this dynamic the standard, 'legit' opening should be pool then hatchery against forge then nexus.
too bad the dynamic is complete simplified nonsense.
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EPT
